Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Rally 07]

I believe that Ultimate Gohan, A17 and Golden Frieza are low-tier Blue Level which would be the power that Vegeta and Goku had as SSBlue in RoF but way below the power that Vegeta and Goku achieved as SSBlue in the TOP.

Umm lower tier Super Saiyan Blue levels would be Fukkatsu no F story arc Super Saiyan Blue levels of power? No. No dude. Both Ultimate Gohan and Artificial Human No.17 individually were able to combat Super Saiyan Blue Gokou, whom is astronomically much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue from the Fukkatsu no F story arc. Hell, Golden Freeza is stated to be evenly matched Super Saiyan Blue Gokou in Super episode 95.
Also another thing, claiming Golden Freeza is lower tier Super Saiyan Blue level would be neglecting the fact that Golden Freeza was more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Gokou, and not to mention it was be negating the fact that Freeza has grown significantly more powerful from the Fukkatsu no F story arc as well.
Now obviously; while I firmly believe those three are relative to Super Saiyan Blue, its likely Gokou and Vegeta before fighting Jiren. Because Gokou and Vegeta began receiving numerous Zenkai Boosts from fighting Jiren.

[Kenneth La Torre]

To be honest, A ssb level character from the Revival of F saga are a joke compared to even ssb level zamasu saga characters.

[wolflonnie]

Frieza is in the higher end of the SSB tier, almost SSBKK I'd say. He ain't that weak at all.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Whis states something about her ki rivalling the Genki Dama's

Well that statement of Whis' can be interpreted in different ways. Some argue it's a comparison of role/ability, and I honestly haven't got the slightest clue on what that means. I've read this on Comicvine with DottiestMoon's post and others whom made the same arguments. Even now I'm a little puzzled with the connection between Kefura and the Genkidama. Then many more believe the statement is a comparison in power between Kefura and the Genkidama. Which way do you interpret that statment? A comparison of power or role/ability?

Mind you the way Super using "rival" doesn't always translate to match raw power in context, for example SSB Goku was said to rival the power of Gods of Destructions or Gohan was said to rival SSB Goku. In both neither is trying to imply there's a match in power. Then you have the word "stimulus" used in Whis statement which by definition means reactionary response which makes sense as Goku as response was put into a low state when Kefla kicked the little remaining energy out of him, she doesn't need to match the Genkidama. Stimulus seems to more so imply role/ability, what that means is that both Genkidama and Kefla had the same role as him wearing Goku down into a low state to the point he had no energy left hence breaking his shell again, practically the result of the Genkidama on Goku without acknowledging it's power.

[Bullza]

Golden Frieza is just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku, that was shown before this Tournament began.

[brett wheeler]

So I was looking at what terms translated, where beerus says goku might have surpassed him and it seems like a guide book type deal, also it was most likely referring to omen ( from 129 ) based on the fact it uses UI omen goku as the picture when talking about it, idk if many others are aware of this just something I thought of, based on context of the picture, this means goku UI ( omen )>= beerus witch makes sense, lastly jiren is stronger than both as he beat UI omen so he can most likely beat beerus, but beerus is in that range of power, witch leaves me with one question, why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So I was looking at what terms translated, where beerus says goku might have surpassed him and it seems like a guide book type deal, also it was most likely referring to omen ( from 129 ) based on the fact it uses UI omen goku as the picture when talking about it, idk if many others are aware of this just something I thought of, based on context of the picture, this means goku UI ( omen )>= beerus witch makes sense, lastly jiren is stronger than both as he beat UI omen so he can most likely beat beerus, but beerus is in that range of power, witch leaves me with one question, why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

He was probably bored and no one in his Universe 7 was ever even close to that level until SSG Goku came around.

He can't just go to other Universes, they're not his jurisdiction, and he can't fight their Hakaishin because doing so would collapse AT LEAST two Universes.

[Hugo Boss]

why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

This is just an example of how volatile powerlevels are. Conveniently, the mystery about Beerus’ full power allows to create new forms for Goku to rival him.

[ToshioWrites]

I feel like the anime has made us think Beerus power is a moving goalpost. Beerus claiming he used 10% with rage Vegeta , claiming he used 100% vs goku( yes he later admitted it was not true ) but still , having him freak out at blue kk. So we think Goku had started to reach a level where Beerus was scared of him back in u6 Arc so when blue kkx20 in this arc isn’t close to his level scaling off Jiren = Beerus we are like what


That’s why I liked when Beerus one shot mssb Vegeta and how Shin said ssb Vegito was MAYBE> Beerus , we have a clear idea of the absurd gap

[Hugo Boss]

Okay, with the Dragon Ball series pausing, I can give a few thoughts about the strength of U7 characters who I found the most relevant. Having countless times surpassed their limits, I think it could be said everyone on this list has become stronger from Episode #001 to Episode #131. So, without further ado, let’s see what we have.

Son Goku
At this point, it’s safe to assume Goku’s base has surpassed his previous Super Saiyan levels from the Dragon Ball Z era. We saw him fighting equally a super-improved final form Freeza, matching an opponent that had SS3 Gotenks on the ropes, sparing with a faster and arguibly more powerful form of Boo (the good one), besting SS2 Caulifla (until she adjusted to his fighting style). Super Saiyan Blue also powered-up, it went from losing against Golden Freeza to match him after he improved his ki control skills and power. He probably got even stronger after fighting Jiren. Despite not knowing how to activate Ultra Instinct, I think we will see Goku in a dire situation again in the future.

Vegeta
In general, Vegeta followed pratically the same path of Goku, except for Kaioken and Ultra Instinct. Instead, he achieved a different evolution and could overcome a God of Destruction. In the end, it’s suggested he will aim even higher than Ultra Instinct.

Freeza
After being revived, Freeza underwent training. He powered up so much that his first form is able to eclipse even a Super Saiyan from Dragon Ball Z era. Freeza’s final form strength was matched by Goku’s base in the first half of Dragon Ball Super. In the tournament, it seems to be consistently in a different class than a normal Saiyan, possibly around SS2 range. He was able to control the stamina issues of his Golden form and it powered up as well. It’s possible that he got stronger due to the intense fights of the last 5 minutes of the tournament too.

Son Gohan
By training with Piccolo seriously, Gohan managed to unlock his full power again. He was able to fight a much stronger Goku in almost equal terms. And his full power was able to outdo SS2 Goku. In the tournament, he came up with a good plan to knock out Dyspo, an elite fighter from Universe 11 that not even Golden Freeza can beat alone.

Piccolo
After fighting Frost and doing some training, Piccolo beat SS2 Gohan and made Goku work to keep himself inside the mountain fighting stage. In the tournament, he surpassed his own limits by piercing through two Super Namekians with makankosappo.

No.17
He didn’t appear in the first half of Dragon Ball Super, but he was unexpectly useful in the second half, specially in the main fight. At full power, I would bet he is around the SS2 range from the Tournament of Power. But his great strength is that he is a pragmatic fighter, avoiding direct clashes with stronger foes or seizing for the right moment to make his move.

No.18
When beating Ribrianne she possibly summoned power from her family memories, which I believe could be compared with No.17’s at that brief moment.

Honorable mention: Boo. He was the one that triggered the first main fight with Beerus, after that his role was diminished. In the Zen Exhibition Matches, he overpowered a stronger version of Basil using the power of anger, and sparred with Goku’s base in the recruitment episodes with a slight advantage.

On a side note, I think Kuririn, Roshi and Tenshinhan deserve some respect due to their techniques, but when it comes to strength alone, it’s a bit difficult to remember them as prominent forces. Roshi was probably the most useful one in the tournament. In another hand, though that wasn’t his own power, he was able to compete with Goku’s base for a while.

[Marlowe89]

No.17
He didn’t appear in the first half of Dragon Ball Super, but he was unexpectly useful in the second half, specially in the main fight. At full power, I would bet he is around the SS2 range from the Tournament of Power. But his great strength is that he is a pragmatic fighter, avoiding direct clashes with stronger foes or seizing for the right moment to make his move.

I'm not sure I'd lowball 17's power that much, but I definitely concur with the notion that he's more of a cunning "behind-the-scenes" fighter rather than one who relies on brute strength. That was pretty much his gimmick on the team since the tournament started.

One of the major things demonstrated by Super's narrative is that fighters are indeed capable of closing seemingly impossible gaps between themselves and much stronger opponents through the use of strategy, unique abilities or other special factors. It doesn't explain away every inconsistency in the tournament by any means, but it's an important thing to keep in mind when assessing the strength of various characters.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So I was looking at what terms translated, where beerus says goku might have surpassed him and it seems like a guide book type deal, also it was most likely referring to omen ( from 129 ) based on the fact it uses UI omen goku as the picture when talking about it, idk if many others are aware of this just something I thought of, based on context of the picture, this means goku UI ( omen )>= beerus witch makes sense, lastly jiren is stronger than both as he beat UI omen so he can most likely beat beerus, but beerus is in that range of power, witch leaves me with one question, why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

Oh thank god someone else noticed it here. It does not seem at all to be refering to 130, and it was talking about previous events from 130. Seth the programmer was one of the first power scalers to notice as well.

[ToshioWrites]

Do you guys think SSBE Vegeta and SSB kkx20 Goku that fought Jiren in 127 are stronger than Omen from 116?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Do you guys think SSBE Vegeta and SSB kkx20 Goku that fought Jiren in 127 are stronger than Omen from 116?

Depends. Jiren there was stronger than in 122, who was stronger than in 110. My guess that they at least need power at least somewhat comparable to 116 Omen Goku to combat 127 powered up jiren

[Bullza]

Do you guys think SSBE Vegeta and SSB kkx20 Goku that fought Jiren in 127 are stronger than Omen from 116?

No I don't. I just don't think that would have been the intention at all.

[Puaru]

I have now made peace with Gohan being comparatively among the weaker characters.












APRIL FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLS!

Gohan sucks.

[Helios518]

Do you guys think SSBE Vegeta and SSB kkx20 Goku that fought Jiren in 127 are stronger than Omen from 116?

No I don't. I just don't think that would have been the intention at all.

Agreed. I don't believe in the "but the writer's intent" argument, but thinking that even 110 Omen got surpassed by current SSJBKKx20, because of no-mentioned powers is outright asinine. I just chalk it up it up to it being an inconsistency created by numerous writers.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So the scan about Goku and Beerus doesn't mention MUI Goku and instead shows UI Omen. Guess it's my fault for not vetting the source for myself and just listening and believing despite there clearly being an agenda by fans to keep Beerus relevant which flies in the face of what's shown in the story.

Though the scan just states the obvious and it very much should have been obvious. Suppressed Jiren from his first fight with Goku had Beerus sweating wondering how someone could be so powerful and UI Omen Goku matched him.

Then Whis states that Jiren had destroyer-like might and alludes to him surpassing the state of God of Destruction as a whole while heavily suppressed. It's not really complicated.

Along with things like Vegeta defeating a God of Destruction despite being weaker than UI Omen, all of this paints a very obvious picture. The idea that Beerus or any of the Gods come even close to being rivals to Goku or Jiren is laughable.

[Miracles]

So I was looking at what terms translated, where beerus says goku might have surpassed him and it seems like a guide book type deal, also it was most likely referring to omen ( from 129 ) based on the fact it uses UI omen goku as the picture when talking about it, idk if many others are aware of this just something I thought of, based on context of the picture, this means goku UI ( omen )>= beerus witch makes sense, lastly jiren is stronger than both as he beat UI omen so he can most likely beat beerus, but beerus is in that range of power, witch leaves me with one question, why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

First of all it was never stated that Jiren was stronger than Beerus. It was only stated that he was stronger than HIS god, Belmound.
Secondly, you're going by a statement of UI maybe being stronger than Beerus by some promotional comic. None of this was mentioned in the actual DBS source; anime/manga.

So the scan about Goku and Beerus doesn't mention MUI Goku and instead shows UI Omen. Guess it's my fault for not vetting the source for myself and just listening and believing despite there clearly being an agenda by fans to keep Beerus relevant which flies in the face of what's shown in the story.

Though the scan just states the obvious and it very much should have been obvious. Suppressed Jiren from his first fight with Goku had Beerus sweating wondering how someone could be so powerful and UI Omen Goku matched him.

Then Whis states that Jiren had destroyer-like might and alludes to him surpassing the state of God of Destruction as a whole while heavily suppressed. It's not really complicated.

Along with things like Vegeta defeating a God of Destruction despite being weaker than UI Omen, all of this paints a very obvious picture. The idea that Beerus or any of the Gods come even close to being rivals to Goku or Jiren is laughable.

It's not laughable when Whis only stated Jiren to be stronger than HIS god, Belmound, no other god.
Beerus sweating at Jiren doesn't mean anything, he also sweated at other powers, clearly weaker than Jiren.
Beerus also smiled at UI Goku and confidently smirking wanting to see UI in action.
A magazine's quote doesn't mean anything when it's not in the actual canon. People are in a hurry to remove Beerus which is highly unlikely due to his plot importance.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Whis stated that Jiren was stronger than a God that's stronger than Beerus. Then he goes on to state that he had destroyer-like might and likely surpassed the entire state as a whole while he was heavily suppressed. So no, the idea that Jiren was somehow kept below Beerus in the story is a whole lotta denial. It's not even worth taking seriously.

Beerus smiled at UI Omen since Goku was about to lose and was saved by activating UI. Ignoring context isn't going to change the fact that Beerus is fodder. The fact that Goku is stronger than him isn't the least bit important to him in front of his erasure.

Beerus was removed since he isn't relevant on the power scale anymore. That's your own bias keeping him relevant, not the story. The story says that UI Omen Goku and Jiren even while suppressed have gone above the state of God of Destruction and it has Vegeta beating a God of Destruction while being below UI Omen Goku and even a suppressed Jiren's level.