Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

[ZeroNeonix]

It's still basically a way for Vegeta to compensate for KK Blue, one that shows up about five or six dozen episodes then it really should. The series just has Vegeta not care that Goku can instantly make himself twice to two dozen times stronger then him.

Then again, Evolution, Omen, God Toppo and Rage are all anime only things that Toriyama never intended so that's probably why it's insertion is awkward as hell.

You sure God Toppo was an anime only thing? I thought it was part of Toriyama's outline that Toppo was a candidate for God of Destruction.

[ekrolo2]

It's still basically a way for Vegeta to compensate for KK Blue, one that shows up about five or six dozen episodes then it really should. The series just has Vegeta not care that Goku can instantly make himself twice to two dozen times stronger then him.

Then again, Evolution, Omen, God Toppo and Rage are all anime only things that Toriyama never intended so that's probably why it's insertion is awkward as hell.

You sure God Toppo was an anime only thing? I thought it was part of Toriyama's outline that Toppo was a candidate for God of Destruction.

It being a transformation is definitely an anime thing since he powers up with God Ki in the manga and it doesn't change his appearance at all.

[PFM18]

It's still basically a way for Vegeta to compensate for KK Blue, one that shows up about five or six dozen episodes then it really should. The series just has Vegeta not care that Goku can instantly make himself twice to two dozen times stronger then him.

Then again, Evolution, Omen, God Toppo and Rage are all anime only things that Toriyama never intended so that's probably why it's insertion is awkward as hell.

You sure God Toppo was an anime only thing? I thought it was part of Toriyama's outline that Toppo was a candidate for God of Destruction.

It being a transformation is definitely an anime thing since he powers up with God Ki in the manga and it doesn't change his appearance at all.

Yeah but he doesnt become a GoD until the end of the tournament. The manga will probably show this later

[Raphael_Z]

Really oddly placed given that it's left in the dust by Omen, a good dozen episodes before it even debuts, never mind with completed UI. It feels really, really odd to give Vegeta his equivalent to KK Blue so late in the game, it should've happened sooner, honestly.

It isn't JUST an equivalent for KK Blue. It was when Vegeta first achieved it, but he WAY surpassed it when his aura flared up against Toppo.

The main thing is that is less draining than Kaioken

It's still basically a way for Vegeta to compensate for KK Blue, one that shows up about five or six dozen episodes then it really should. The series just has Vegeta not care that Goku can instantly make himself twice to two dozen times stronger then him.

Then again, Evolution, Omen, God Toppo and Rage are all anime only things that Toriyama never intended so that's probably why it's insertion is awkward as hell.

I'm not sure about God Toppo. After all, the manga introduced the fact that Toppo had God Ki and was training to be Belmond's successor too. MAYBE he will not change his physical appearance (I found funny how his beer belly became a six pack out of nowhere) but he will definitely use his God Ki against Vegeta.

[ekrolo2]

I'm not sure about God Toppo. After all, the manga introduced the fact that Toppo had God Ki and was training to be Belmond's successor too. MAYBE he will not change his physical appearance (I found funny how his beer belly became a six pack out of nowhere) but he will definitely use his God Ki against Vegeta.

The way I guage whether or not a form "exists" between Super's anime and manga is like this: does it have a Toriyama design accompanying it? If it doesn't, it probably doesn't "exist" for him and is an anime only thing. For example, regular Fused Zamasu has one but the anime's twisted one doesn't. The designs also tend to come out close to the debut of the characters and none of the forms I've listed from Rage to Evolution to GoD Toppo has one. The only Omen design is from Yamamuro and it's literally just the completed one with Goku's black, Base hair colored in.

Yeah but he doesnt become a GoD until the end of the tournament. The manga will probably show this later

Him powering up by activating God ki is essentially the anime's transformation, except a lot more sensical because GoDs do NOT have transformations nor is being one A transformation. It feels like they just made it one because hype and because I guess having a fat GoD sounded stupid to them even though Belmond and Beerus are ridiculously skiny and Champa is a fat bastard already.

[Marlowe89]

The way I guage whether or not a form "exists" between Super's anime and manga is like this: does it have a Toriyama design accompanying it? If it doesn't, it probably doesn't "exist" for him and is an anime only thing. For example, regular Fused Zamasu has one but the anime's twisted one doesn't. The designs also tend to come out close to the debut of the characters and none of the forms I've listed from Rage to Evolution to GoD Toppo has one. The only Omen design is from Yamamuro and it's literally just the completed one with Goku's black, Base hair colored in.

It's a little difficult to tell at first glance, but the Fused Zamasu design floating around is from Yamamuro, not Toriyama. We actually don't quite get to see all of Toriyama's concept art, so there's no surefire way of knowing whether Omen, GoD Toppo, Evolution, etc. are anime-exclusive designs at the moment.

[ekrolo2]

The way I guage whether or not a form "exists" between Super's anime and manga is like this: does it have a Toriyama design accompanying it? If it doesn't, it probably doesn't "exist" for him and is an anime only thing. For example, regular Fused Zamasu has one but the anime's twisted one doesn't. The designs also tend to come out close to the debut of the characters and none of the forms I've listed from Rage to Evolution to GoD Toppo has one. The only Omen design is from Yamamuro and it's literally just the completed one with Goku's black, Base hair colored in.

It's a little difficult to tell at first glance, but the Fused Zamasu design floating around is from Yamamuro, not Toriyama. We actually don't quite get to see all of Toriyama's concept art, so there's no surefire way of knowing whether Omen, GoD Toppo, Evolution, etc. are anime-exclusive designs at the moment.

Has that been confirmed? Dragon Ball Sakuga seemed to think it was a Toriyama one.

https://twitter.com/dbsakuga/status/859854200381083648

[Doctor.]

It being a transformation is definitely an anime thing

Good, it makes no fucking sense that he transforms.

It may have worked if it was his lack of control over the Hakai energy that made him change appearance, but they did literally nothing with the concept.

[ZeroNeonix]

Good, it makes no fucking sense that he transforms.

It may have worked if it was his lack of control over the Hakai energy that made him change appearance, but they did literally nothing with the concept.

Does it make any less sense than Ultra Instinct being a transformation? Goku was just learning to move before he thought, the way Whis said he could between the Beerus and Golden Frieza arcs.

[Miracles]

TOEI didn't care about Vegeta. Gave him an upgraded Cell saga Super Saiyan Blue Grade 2 form with sparkles.
Vegeta's fights were also very lackluster and lacking any type of quality choreography or excitement.

[ekrolo2]

Good, it makes no fucking sense that he transforms.

It may have worked if it was his lack of control over the Hakai energy that made him change appearance, but they did literally nothing with the concept.

Does it make any less sense than Ultra Instinct being a transformation? Goku was just learning to move before he thought, the way Whis said he could between the Beerus and Golden Frieza arcs.

Yes, actually, why the hell IS it a transformation when they establish it as a technique you just learn. Goku doesn't get a transformation called "The Kamehameha" that lets him fire the Kamehameha, he doesn't have a form that lets him use teleportation or the Mafuba.

Everyone says UI is somehow unique because it's not a Super Saiyan form but it basically acts like one what with the change to his hair, eyes, physique and overall power boost.

[PFM18]

It being a transformation is definitely an anime thing

Good, it makes no fucking sense that he transforms.

It may have worked if it was his lack of control over the Hakai energy that made him change appearance, but they did literally nothing with the concept.

He gains the hakai energy and he has the aura and then the "Universe 11" emblem that Belmod has is branded on his chest. The only part that isn't clearly GoD specific like the rest of the GoDs is his muscle mass. I don't mind that because Toppo looks like he ate the rest of the Pride Troopers prior to the "transformation"

Good, it makes no fucking sense that he transforms.

It may have worked if it was his lack of control over the Hakai energy that made him change appearance, but they did literally nothing with the concept.

Does it make any less sense than Ultra Instinct being a transformation? Goku was just learning to move before he thought, the way Whis said he could between the Beerus and Golden Frieza arcs.

Yes, actually, why the hell IS it a transformation when they establish it as a technique you just learn. Goku doesn't get a transformation called "The Kamehameha" that lets him fire the Kamehameha, he doesn't have a form that lets him use teleportation or the Mafuba.

Everyone says UI is somehow unique because it's not a Super Saiyan form but it basically acts like one what with the change to his hair, eyes, physique and overall power boost.

It is a transformation because he "Broke his Limits" initially when the Spirit Bomb engulfed him. (and every other time) He gains a "Limit Breaking Power" and essentially the way that he moves without thinking is just a way that this limit breaking power manifests itself. So I mean it makes sense with what we are given. If you prefer that it wasn't that way but in terms of the story it makes perfect sense that it is a transformation

[ekrolo2]

He gains the hakai energy and he has the aura and then the "Universe 11" emblem that Belmod has is branded on his chest. The only part that isn't clearly GoD specific like the rest of the GoDs is his muscle mass. I don't mind that because Toppo looks like he ate the rest of the Pride Troopers prior to the "transformation"

Belmod doesn't transform because he has Hakai energy, none of the Gods of Destruction do but Toppo does because reasons. Again, if they established that Toppo's body transforms because his default self can't properly manage the surge of energy, that would be one thing but he just transforms because of course he does. Also, making Hakai energy it's own separate thing that's supposed to fuel the Gods of Destruction is REALLY weird when it was just a special move they could do and it was God Ki that made them as powerful as they were. So now its God Ki and Hakai energy together... I guess.

Yes, actually, why the hell IS it a transformation when they establish it as a technique you just learn. Goku doesn't get a transformation called "The Kamehameha" that lets him fire the Kamehameha, he doesn't have a form that lets him use teleportation or the Mafuba.

Everyone says UI is somehow unique because it's not a Super Saiyan form but it basically acts like one what with the change to his hair, eyes, physique and overall power boost.

It is a transformation because he "Broke his Limits" initially when the Spirit Bomb engulfed him. (and every other time) He gains a "Limit Breaking Power" and essentially the way that he moves without thinking is just a way that this limit breaking power manifests itself. So I mean it makes sense with what we are given. If you prefer that it wasn't that way but in terms of the story it makes perfect sense that it is a transformation

[/quote]
I'm not opposed to Goku getting a transformation or massive power up by having the Spirit Bomb help break his limitations, I just don't know why it manifests in a technique that lets you move without thinking or why Goku can only use that technique with a transformation whereas everyone else who has it just learns it the same way you learn the Kamehameha or Mafuba. There's really no correlation between the Spirit Bomb and Ultra instinct in any way whatsoever. If anything, they're the exact opposites as the Spirit Bomb is all about drawing power from external sources, reaching out to them to create a devasting massive blast while Ultra Instinct is literally "The Key to Egoism".

[Marlowe89]

Has that been confirmed? Dragon Ball Sakuga seemed to think it was a Toriyama one.

https://twitter.com/dbsakuga/status/859854200381083648

On second glance, I'm not too sure myself. Ajay seems to think it's Yamamuro: https://mobile.twitter.com/animeajay/st ... 6999424002

Either way, it's plausible that we wouldn't necessarily see all of Toriyama's artwork for an arc as massive in scale as this one. Toei apparently did most of the designs for the throwaway tournament fighters, but Toriyama might've had more involvement in the design process for some of the forms. Evolution in particular does come across as something Toei made up, though.

[Doctor.]

Good, it makes no fucking sense that he transforms.

It may have worked if it was his lack of control over the Hakai energy that made him change appearance, but they did literally nothing with the concept.

Does it make any less sense than Ultra Instinct being a transformation? Goku was just learning to move before he thought, the way Whis said he could between the Beerus and Golden Frieza arcs.

It also makes no sense that UI is a transformation (let alone two), so yes, I'm right there with you on that one.

[PFM18]

He gains the hakai energy and he has the aura and then the "Universe 11" emblem that Belmod has is branded on his chest. The only part that isn't clearly GoD specific like the rest of the GoDs is his muscle mass. I don't mind that because Toppo looks like he ate the rest of the Pride Troopers prior to the "transformation"

Belmod doesn't transform because he has Hakai energy, none of the Gods of Destruction do but Toppo does because reasons. Again, if they established that Toppo's body transforms because his default self can't properly manage the surge of energy, that would be one thing but he just transforms because of course he does. Also, making Hakai energy it's own separate thing that's supposed to fuel the Gods of Destruction is REALLY weird when it was just a special move they could do and it was God Ki that made them as powerful as they were. So now its God Ki and Hakai energy together... I guess.

Yes, actually, why the hell IS it a transformation when they establish it as a technique you just learn. Goku doesn't get a transformation called "The Kamehameha" that lets him fire the Kamehameha, he doesn't have a form that lets him use teleportation or the Mafuba.

Everyone says UI is somehow unique because it's not a Super Saiyan form but it basically acts like one what with the change to his hair, eyes, physique and overall power boost.

It is a transformation because he "Broke his Limits" initially when the Spirit Bomb engulfed him. (and every other time) He gains a "Limit Breaking Power" and essentially the way that he moves without thinking is just a way that this limit breaking power manifests itself. So I mean it makes sense with what we are given. If you prefer that it wasn't that way but in terms of the story it makes perfect sense that it is a transformation

I'm not opposed to Goku getting a transformation or massive power up by having the Spirit Bomb help break his limitations, I just don't know why it manifests in a technique that lets you move without thinking or why Goku can only use that technique with a transformation whereas everyone else who has it just learns it the same way you learn the Kamehameha or Mafuba. There's really no correlation between the Spirit Bomb and Ultra instinct in any way whatsoever. If anything, they're the exact opposites as the Spirit Bomb is all about drawing power from external sources, reaching out to them to create a devasting massive blast while Ultra Instinct is literally "The Key to Egoism".[/quote]

Being engulfed by the Spirit Bomb forced him to push himself beyond his normal limitations and that is how the form was triggered. It just happens that it manifested as self movement. THEN when he had Omen he focused on moving without thinking to attain the full form. I dont see anything wrong with it

[majinwarman]

I think as far as Super exclusive transformations go Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Rose were handled very well. It's only Super Saiyan Rage that I feel was quite mishandled. And Super Saiyan Blue Evolution reminds me a lot of Super Saiyan 3 in the sense that it was more or less thrown in because the plot needed to last longer, and their aesthetics leave a lot to be desired. Ironically, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution had more of an explanation behind it and actually made more of a factor in battle, even though its original intended use was left unfulfilled.

I just don't want Vegeta's new form to end up like Super Saiyan 3. A form forgotten due to it being irrelevant due to new power or form.

It's bound to happen. EVERY new SSJ form goes through that phase of quickly becoming irrelevant.

But at least give it some time to shine before throwing it away. I don't like the idea of the next new form. I don't hate transformations but it shouldn't be a writing crutch.

[ekrolo2]

Being engulfed by the Spirit Bomb forced him to push himself beyond his normal limitations and that is how the form was triggered. It just happens that it manifested as self movement. THEN when he had Omen he focused on moving without thinking to attain the full form. I dont see anything wrong with it

What's wrong with it is that "going past your limits" does not mean attaining a technique through the energy of the Spirit Bomb, an attack that's the exact opposite of UI in terms of well, everything. UI is also a technique for everyone else, something you can learn by practicing it a lot... except for Saiyan's who basically get a Super Saiyan form in all but name that lets them use it. Why specifically for this technique? It doesn't happen to them for anything else but now it does?

[KingKaash]

What exactly did you want as far as an explanation goes? This trabsistion he maxe emogionally manifested in him gaining a new limit breaking power when he already had a legit god presence as a "super saiyan god super saiyan" . I dont see how it is in any way nonsensical that upon receiving a gigantic power boost alongside a new transformation he is able to overpower Toppo. Is there ever a "legit explanation" when one character surpasses another? It doesnt have to be a particularly explicit "explanation" for it to make sense within the series.

Hakai powers are on a totally different level of strength because it's what the gods use. For Vegeta to acquire a humanely strength that could overpower semi-hakai just doesn't sit well with me.

Well the fact that it "doesn't sit well" with you doesn't mean that it wasn't a rational reasonable plot point for Vegeta to be able to overpower Toppo. At this point in the series Vegeta has been able to use God ki for years now and it would make sense by this point at the end of the series that he would be able to surpass somebody like Toppo upon reaching a new transformation

Glad it worked for you bud. But without visual representation of what went on in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to show what lengths it took to attain such a massive power, I'll never accept it. And I doubt we'll get that. Before SSJBE we had no factual evidence that God ki could have multiple levels. SSJBKK is different because that's a technique on top of God power so I'm fine with that. SSJBE is just a random transformation.

And I'm entitled to whatever opinion I want as a fan so you can keep saying whatever you want but it won't change my opinion FYI