Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

I still fund it funny that jiren was already peak hakaishin level at full power, and still they made him even more powerful by allowing him to break his limits. I just imagine their conversation “we already made an opponent for goku who is on beerus level. Why not give him another power up?”

[ToshioWrites]

So a hypothetical ss3 vegito from buu arc would be weaker than the ssg goku from BoG but in the manga of dbs its implied that base vegito(zamas arc) is stronger than ssb goku/vegeta.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So a hypothetical ss3 vegito from buu arc would be weaker than the ssg goku from BoG but in the manga of dbs its implied that base vegito(zamas arc) is stronger than ssb goku/vegeta.

Once again, I think the case is that SSG remains in the same general realm of power, but the boost from base to SSG isn't as large anymore thanks to immense training that Goku has done to close the gap.

Potara Fusion, however, has remained as proportionally powerful as before, whereas SSG hasn't.

[Marlowe89]

Regardless, the boosts provided by the god transformations are static to some degree. Both the manga's dialogue and supplementary materials already confirmed that Super Saiyan God (as in the form itself, not Goku's usage of it) is vastly superior to the Super Saiyan 3 form, e.g. the current SSG will always be stronger than the current SS3.

So a hypothetical ss3 vegito from buu arc would be weaker than the ssg goku from BoG but in the manga of dbs its implied that base vegito(zamas arc) is stronger than ssb goku/vegeta.

It could be possible that the boost provided from Potara fusion takes the users' strongest forms into account. That would also explain why base Kefla was relatively close to SSG Goku without having to dismiss the gap between different forms.

[ToshioWrites]

[/quote]It could be possible that the boost provided from Potara fusion takes the users' strongest forms into account. That would also explain why base Kefla was relatively close to SSG Goku without having to dismiss the gap between different forms.[/quote]


This would actually make a lot of sense. If you combine the max powers and multiply them to create the base power of the fusion more so than a straight set multiplier on base forms.

If that is how it works then ToP vegito could possibly fight jiren evenly in base

[ZombieVito]

I just assume that obtaining god ki increases your base power by a set amount and that's why Goku's SSG form isn't thousands of times stronger than his BoG self.

[Helios518]

Once again, I think the case is that SSG remains in the same general realm of power, but the boost from base to SSG isn't as large anymore thanks to immense training that Goku has done to close the gap.

I just assume that obtaining god ki increases your base power by a set amount and that's why Goku's SSG form isn't thousands of times stronger than his BoG self.

Agreed. I.E if SSJG initially was say a 500x multiplier, then current Goku absorb some of it, and the multiplier became like 5x. Some thing like this.

BoG base: 1
BoG SSJG : 500
Current base: 100
Current SSJG: 500

[SayianBeyondGod]

So I was looking at what terms translated, where beerus says goku might have surpassed him and it seems like a guide book type deal, also it was most likely referring to omen ( from 129 ) based on the fact it uses UI omen goku as the picture when talking about it, idk if many others are aware of this just something I thought of, based on context of the picture, this means goku UI ( omen )>= beerus witch makes sense, lastly jiren is stronger than both as he beat UI omen so he can most likely beat beerus, but beerus is in that range of power, witch leaves me with one question, why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

The passage of the magazine goes something like this when translated " "Bla Bla Goku's new power was enough to make even Beerus go [ボクを超えたのでは... / Didn't he surpass me... ?]". Mind you Herms never directly translated the magazine besides giving a sum of his thoughts on it. Besides that the key word is "new power" in which more so implies this is the more recent completed UI(with the silver hair) rather than the UI omen. Makes sense since the promo magazine came out near episode 129-130 debut which was the new Ultra Instinct first appearance.

[Rally 07]

Mind you the way Super using "rival" doesn't always translate to match raw power in context, for example SSB Goku was said to rival the power of Gods of Destructions or Gohan was said to rival SSB Goku. In both neither is trying to imply there's a match in power. Then you have the word "stimulus" used in Whis statement which by definition means reactionary response which makes sense as Goku as response was put into a low state when Kefla kicked the little remaining energy out of him, she doesn't need to match the Genkidama. Stimulus seems to more so imply role/ability, what that means is that both Genkidama and Kefla had the same role as him wearing Goku down into a low state to the point he had no energy left hence breaking his shell again, practically the result of the Genkidama on Goku without acknowledging it's power.

Oh now I see. Thank you for explaining for me. So the connection between Kefura and the Genkidama is that both acted as a trigger or stimulus for Gokou to transform into Ultra Instinct. That would make sense as Gokou essentially had to fight for life against the Genkidama, then later against Kefura, he had been backed into a corner and had to break his shell once more. It's quite clear to understand now. However I still question the whole statement still.

Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」

Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefla-san's Ki, who rivalled the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku-san to once again break through his limit.

If the connection between Kefura and the Genkidama where only that they both were triggers for two of Gokou's Ultra Instinct transformations, excluding the third which was triggered by Jiren, why would Whis state Kefura's Ki or energy rivaled that of the Genkidama? Now could this be seperate thing of it's own or this is part of the comparison in role/ability? I still am a little confused why Whis would say this rather just say Kefura was a trigger for Gokou to break his limits like the Genkidama and Jiren was.

[ToshioWrites]

Honestly Statements in DBS are hard to take at face value. Gowasu said Initial M Zamasu "power was beyond comprehension and had expanded to no end" Then SSB Goku alone blows his face off with a kamehameha in a beam struggle and knocks his halo off with one kick. Feels like they just say shit to hype characters up but the fights don't reflect that the way they should.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Mind you the way Super using "rival" doesn't always translate to match raw power in context, for example SSB Goku was said to rival the power of Gods of Destructions or Gohan was said to rival SSB Goku. In both neither is trying to imply there's a match in power. Then you have the word "stimulus" used in Whis statement which by definition means reactionary response which makes sense as Goku as response was put into a low state when Kefla kicked the little remaining energy out of him, she doesn't need to match the Genkidama. Stimulus seems to more so imply role/ability, what that means is that both Genkidama and Kefla had the same role as him wearing Goku down into a low state to the point he had no energy left hence breaking his shell again, practically the result of the Genkidama on Goku without acknowledging it's power.

Oh now I see. Thank you for explaining for me. So the connection between Kefura and the Genkidama is that both acted as a trigger or stimulus for Gokou to transform into Ultra Instinct. That would make sense as Gokou essentially had to fight for life against the Genkidama, then later against Kefura, he had been backed into a corner and had to break his shell once more. It's quite clear to understand now. However I still question the whole statement still.

Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」

Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefla-san's Ki, who rivalled the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku-san to once again break through his limit.

If the connection between Kefura and the Genkidama where only that they both were triggers for two of Gokou's Ultra Instinct transformations, excluding the third which was triggered by Jiren, why would Whis state Kefura's Ki or energy rivaled that of the Genkidama? Now could this be seperate thing of it's own or this is part of the comparison in role/ability? I still am a little confused why Whis would say this rather just say Kefura was a trigger for Gokou to break his limits like the Genkidama and Jiren was.

Take into what I said how the series uses "rival" into account, SSB Goku was said to rival the power of the Gods or Gohan rivalled SSB Goku. This only thing rivalling I could imagine is that for the former Goku has god ki and Gohan just being close in power despite the obvious gap. As for Whis statement you can interpert like this they both rival eachother in terms of roles or how they affected Goku in the same way, it's doesn't have to rival in power alone. It makes sense considering Whis later says "stimulus" which implies a role/ability comparasion as the defination of stimulus means a reactionary response, in which Goku broke his shell as a reponse if you get where I'm coming from. In the end Whis is presuming something so he may not know what he's talking about.

[Rally 07]

Take into what I said how the series uses "rival" into account, SSB Goku was said to rival the power of the Gods or Gohan rivalled SSB Goku. This only thing rivalling I could imagine is that for the former Goku has god ki and Gohan just being close in power despite the obvious gap. As for Whis statement you can interpert like this they both rival eachother in terms of roles or how they affected Goku in the same way, it's doesn't have to rival in power alone. It makes sense considering Whis say's "stimulus" which implies a role/ability comparasion as the defination of stimulus means a reactionary response, in which Goku broke his shell as a reponse if you get where I'm comng from. In the end Whis is presuming something so he may not know what he's talking about.

I understand that rival doesn't equate to someone matching a certain level of power. I completely understand that as I argued this with the No.17 vs Gohan debates. And also, I agree, in fact I talked with someone who interpreted the statement as both a comparison in power and role/ability. In fact, I think Whis' statement could very well possibly be interpreted that way. Actually it could make sense as he states Kefura's Ki possibly rivals that of the Genkidama and the intense fight with Kefura and with Gokou being put into a corner, acted as a trigger for Gokou to transform into Ultra Instinct; just like how Gokou had to fight for his life against the Genkidama allowing him to break his limits and transform then. And also I wouldn't say Whis doesn't know what exactly he's talking about. I think Whis is still a credible source for information. But honestly, I believe it's subjective whether or not he's wrong or not.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not sure I'd lowball 17's power that much, but I definitely concur with the notion that he's more of a cunning "behind-the-scenes" fighter rather than one who relies on brute strength. That was pretty much his gimmick on the team since the tournament started.

I’m comparing him with SS2 because it seems to have the largest range in the tournament, specially considering how Caulifla and Kale evolved in their fight against Goku. And that’s more or less where I’m assessing Freeza’s final form strength as well. In both cases, I’m more inclined to push them to compete with the strongest SS2s.

[brett wheeler]

So I was looking at what terms translated, where beerus says goku might have surpassed him and it seems like a guide book type deal, also it was most likely referring to omen ( from 129 ) based on the fact it uses UI omen goku as the picture when talking about it, idk if many others are aware of this just something I thought of, based on context of the picture, this means goku UI ( omen )>= beerus witch makes sense, lastly jiren is stronger than both as he beat UI omen so he can most likely beat beerus, but beerus is in that range of power, witch leaves me with one question, why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

Oh thank god someone else noticed it here. It does not seem at all to be refering to 130, and it was talking about previous events from 130. Seth the programmer was one of the first power scalers to notice as well.

yea I remembered seth mentioning it, thats what caused me to go look at it, also I think its pretty fair for UI omen to be around beerus lvl as its the same variation beerus knows as well, or atleast presumably based on the manga, he just doesnt change features when he uses it, also it doesnt seem to give him a power boost unlike goku who got huge amount stronger with it.

[brett wheeler]

So I was looking at what terms translated, where beerus says goku might have surpassed him and it seems like a guide book type deal, also it was most likely referring to omen ( from 129 ) based on the fact it uses UI omen goku as the picture when talking about it, idk if many others are aware of this just something I thought of, based on context of the picture, this means goku UI ( omen )>= beerus witch makes sense, lastly jiren is stronger than both as he beat UI omen so he can most likely beat beerus, but beerus is in that range of power, witch leaves me with one question, why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

The passage of the magazine goes something like this when translated " "Bla Bla Goku's new power was enough to make even Beerus go [ボクを超えたのでは... / Didn't he surpass me... ?]". Mind you Herms never directly translated the magazine besides giving a sum of his thoughts on it. Besides that the key word is "new power" in which more so implies this is the more recent completed UI(with the silver hair) rather than the UI omen. Makes sense since the promo magazine came out near episode 129-130 debut which was the new Ultra Instinct first appearance.

I think the magazine came out shortly after 129 or shortly before idk somewhere in that time frame, but the context images of the magazine, uses UI omen and since UI omen goku is only slightly behind jiren ( mostly cause he cant attack hard enough ), this honestly makes a lot of sense, I say if you placed UI omen as a 10 beerus at minimum is a 9.8 and could beat him if he out stratagized him, or waited for it to wear off and just tanked hits, as there not the strongest hits ever any way.

[brett wheeler]

So I was looking at what terms translated, where beerus says goku might have surpassed him and it seems like a guide book type deal, also it was most likely referring to omen ( from 129 ) based on the fact it uses UI omen goku as the picture when talking about it, idk if many others are aware of this just something I thought of, based on context of the picture, this means goku UI ( omen )>= beerus witch makes sense, lastly jiren is stronger than both as he beat UI omen so he can most likely beat beerus, but beerus is in that range of power, witch leaves me with one question, why the fuck did he toy with ssg like that he was litterally hundreds of times stronger bare minimum and more likely thousands of times stronger, so the hell beerus.

First of all it was never stated that Jiren was stronger than Beerus. It was only stated that he was stronger than HIS god, Belmound.
Secondly, you're going by a statement of UI maybe being stronger than Beerus by some promotional comic. None of this was mentioned in the actual DBS source; anime/manga.

why shouldnt we take this into consideration, i mean the guid books are just promotional material like this magazine yet we understand those are consistently accurate, this doesnt contradict anything in the anime or manga so why wouldnt this work, also it was never said MUI goku surpassed beerus yet we can all agree that yea he did, my point is if this contradicts nothing is the equivalent to a guide book and makes a lot of sense if you think about it, why shouldnt we atleast talk about it or would you wait for the anime, or manga to depict the same thing witch is unlikely for the manga to do and the anime is over for now and even when it does come back the odds of it explaining isnt likely ( maby in a gag scene with bulma threatening to call goku on beerus for being mean and beerus saying he doesnt want to fight UI cause hell loose but agian unlikely ), so what better options do we have than this honestly.

[brett wheeler]

Honestly Statements in DBS are hard to take at face value. Gowasu said Initial M Zamasu "power was beyond comprehension and had expanded to no end" Then SSB Goku alone blows his face off with a kamehameha in a beam struggle and knocks his halo off with one kick. Feels like they just say shit to hype characters up but the fights don't reflect that the way they should.

yea this was the case with initial merged zamasu atlease, I say gowasu statement was nothing but hype as initial merged zamasu was probably as strong as toriyma intended, witch he has said was about as strong as 2 ssb's, this makes sense as ssb vegeta and rage trunks ( ssb equivalent in terms of power ) teamed up and also blasted the smirk off his face, also to note zamasu wasnt all that strong ssj2 level at best he was just immortal and verry annoying due to it, so while I can see them getting to be equal to 2 ssb's with rose zamasu fusion ( ssb tier and ssj2 tier fusing together ) I dont see much past that ( unless kefla situation in witch fuck me right ). idk sometimes things are said out of pure hype sometimes its accurate, this is why feats trump statements on a lot of things ( outside instances where a character says they could do something and nothing contradicts it other than they didnt like super perfect cell destroying a solar system ).

[Bullza]

I just assume that obtaining god ki increases your base power by a set amount and that's why Goku's SSG form isn't thousands of times stronger than his BoG self.

Yeah somehow Goku's Base strength drastically went up, like thousands fold, after he became a Super Saiyan God but not to the extent he was remotely close to being as strong as a Super Saiyan God itself as most of us originally thought.

I don't think the series ever explained why either. There was this comment that would make sense of it though this was a Funimation dub line in Battle of Gods, I don't remember the line in Japanese.

"It seems that when you fought me in God form your body learned from the experience, merely feeling that level of power was enough to push you to new heights. So now even though your God form has expired, your power is much greater than before."

That's what I go with anyway. It's why he went from below Frieza on Namek to above Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

[ToshioWrites]

Had a thought about the line from 109 where shin basically says a heavily suppressed jiren is stronger than anyone they have ever faced.
Since Vegito in the anime didn't appear THAT much superior to m zamasu, that line can make us think that heavily suppressed jiren >> SSB Vegito (zamasu arc) HOWEVER what if that line was was in the outline from toriyama but remember toriyama vision for m zamasu was that 2 ssb fighters could handle him and the manga showed that with mssb goku ~= M zamasu so if toei had stuck to his vision for M Zamasu power then that line wouldn't have implied ssb vegito is a chump compared to a non serious jiren.

[PFM18]

I just assume that obtaining god ki increases your base power by a set amount and that's why Goku's SSG form isn't thousands of times stronger than his BoG self.

Yeah somehow Goku's Base strength drastically went up, like thousands fold, after he became a Super Saiyan God but not to the extent he was remotely close to being as strong as a Super Saiyan God itself as most of us originally thought.

I don't think the series ever explained why either. There was this comment that would make sense of it though this was a Funimation dub line in Battle of Gods, I don't remember the line in Japanese.

"It seems that when you fought me in God form your body learned from the experience, merely feeling that level of power was enough to push you to new heights. So now even though your God form has expired, your power is much greater than before."

That's what I go with anyway. It's why he went from below Frieza on Namek to above Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

His base power went damatically upwards after becoming a Super Saiyan God for sure, however, I don't think that he sborbed all of this power into his base and became stronger than SSG in base. That would have meant that upon going Super Saiyan he would have gotten a 50x boost in power at least andd would have started dominating Beerus. This did not happen, however in regular super saiyan was stronger than his previous SSG against Beerus, so you could conclude that he absorbed the god power to some extent but only became stronger than his SSG form in regular super saiyan and not in base. This is further reinforced when the episode title says that Goku has surpassed a Super Saiyan God and the narrator mentions it and then he is in his regular super saiyan state. His base would be whatever this Super Saiyan form is divided by 50 because that is the SSJ multiplier. I have base Goku directly after his fight with Beerus being somewhere between Base Vegetto and Super Saiyan Vegetto(from the buu sga) and by the end of the series I put him just below SSJ3 Vegetto but still weaker than the Super Saiyan God that he used when fighting his Beerus.

The only problem here is, it was established that he absorbed the God power, but why would he be able to go SSG during the ToP if he had absorbed that power before? It doesn't make much sense to me. The best explanation I can come up with is that he uses a lesser version of SSB that uses less stamina and it manifests itself as SSG? I don't really know.

Either way though, the people that think Goku's base being anywhere remotely close to his base in the Buu saga are just being ridiculous. His SSG absorbtion was not retconned.