Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ToshioWrites]

IMO they should have just went the manga route and never had goku lose the form and say anything about him absorbing the power. I have no idea why toriyama did that in the movie. Like you spent the majority of the movie hyping this form/power up and then have goku lose it in 5 minutes on screen only to retain the power for some reason.

[Lord Beerus]

IMO they should have just went the manga route and never had goku lose the form and say anything about him absorbing the power. I have no idea why toriyama did that in the movie. Like you spent the majority of the movie hyping this form/power up and then have goku lose it in 5 minutes on screen only to retain the power for some reason.

The route the manga is just as ambiguous. Goku just loses the Super Saiyan God form in the BOG retelling, but he can still access it later on, and it's never elaborated on how he could that, given Super Saiyan God is a temporary form.

[Bullza]

His base power went damatically upwards after becoming a Super Saiyan God for sure, however, I don't think that he sborbed all of this power into his base and became stronger than SSG in base. That would have meant that upon going Super Saiyan he would have gotten a 50x boost in power at least andd would have started dominating Beerus. This did not happen, however in regular super saiyan was stronger than his previous SSG against Beerus, so you could conclude that he absorbed the god power to some extent but only became stronger than his SSG form in regular super saiyan and not in base. This is further reinforced when the episode title says that Goku has surpassed a Super Saiyan God and the narrator mentions it and then he is in his regular super saiyan state. His base would be whatever this Super Saiyan form is divided by 50 because that is the SSJ multiplier. I have base Goku directly after his fight with Beerus being somewhere between Base Vegetto and Super Saiyan Vegetto(from the buu sga) and by the end of the series I put him just below SSJ3 Vegetto but still weaker than the Super Saiyan God that he used when fighting his Beerus.

The only problem here is, it was established that he absorbed the God power, but why would he be able to go SSG during the ToP if he had absorbed that power before? It doesn't make much sense to me. The best explanation I can come up with is that he uses a lesser version of SSB that uses less stamina and it manifests itself as SSG? I don't really know.

Either way though, the people that think Goku's base being anywhere remotely close to his base in the Buu saga are just being ridiculous. His SSG absorbtion was not retconned.

For the longest time it was the most confusing part of the power scaling by far. Nobody could really make head or tails of where things were meant to stand.

It's still confusing but not like it was before.

The way I see it. The Super Saiyan Goku that fought Beerus was as strong or even a bit stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku and that was purely because the power of Super Saiyan God was still running through his body at the time, so even though he didn't look the same he still had the same power.

After that fight, all of his forms were immensely more powerful than before. Base Goku likely being above Ultimate Gohan in Z but even as a Super Saiyan 3 and being 400 times as strong that he still isn't as strong as what Super Saiyan God was.

To me it ranks like this

Super Saiyan God Goku = Super Saiyan (with Super Saiyan God power) Goku
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku
Base Goku
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Z)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku (Z)
Super Saiyan Goku (Z)
Base Goku (Z)

[PFM18]

His base power went damatically upwards after becoming a Super Saiyan God for sure, however, I don't think that he sborbed all of this power into his base and became stronger than SSG in base. That would have meant that upon going Super Saiyan he would have gotten a 50x boost in power at least andd would have started dominating Beerus. This did not happen, however in regular super saiyan was stronger than his previous SSG against Beerus, so you could conclude that he absorbed the god power to some extent but only became stronger than his SSG form in regular super saiyan and not in base. This is further reinforced when the episode title says that Goku has surpassed a Super Saiyan God and the narrator mentions it and then he is in his regular super saiyan state. His base would be whatever this Super Saiyan form is divided by 50 because that is the SSJ multiplier. I have base Goku directly after his fight with Beerus being somewhere between Base Vegetto and Super Saiyan Vegetto(from the buu sga) and by the end of the series I put him just below SSJ3 Vegetto but still weaker than the Super Saiyan God that he used when fighting his Beerus.

The only problem here is, it was established that he absorbed the God power, but why would he be able to go SSG during the ToP if he had absorbed that power before? It doesn't make much sense to me. The best explanation I can come up with is that he uses a lesser version of SSB that uses less stamina and it manifests itself as SSG? I don't really know.

Either way though, the people that think Goku's base being anywhere remotely close to his base in the Buu saga are just being ridiculous. His SSG absorbtion was not retconned.

For the longest time it was the most confusing part of the power scaling by far. Nobody could really make head or tails of where things were meant to stand.

It's still confusing but not like it was before.

The way I see it. The Super Saiyan Goku that fought Beerus was as strong or even a bit stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku and that was purely because the power of Super Saiyan God was still running through his body at the time, so even though he didn't look the same he still had the same power.

After that fight, all of his forms were immensely more powerful than before. Base Goku likely being above Ultimate Gohan in Z but even as a Super Saiyan 3 and being 400 times as strong that he still isn't as strong as what Super Saiyan God was.

To me it ranks like this

Super Saiyan God Goku = Super Saiyan (with Super Saiyan God power) Goku
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku
Base Goku
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Z)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku (Z)
Super Saiyan Goku (Z)
Base Goku (Z)

The bolded that you said is not something that is in question. The narrator,Beerus and the episode title all explicitly state that Goku has gotten stronger than his SSG form upon becoming regular super saiyan. I am not sure what you mean when you say the super saiyan that fought Beerus is about the same as SSG goku but then say even Super Saiyan 3 Goku still isn't as strong as what Super Saiyan God was. Not sure how you come to this conclusion and they seem contradictor with me. Are you saying Goku's super saiyan is sometimes infused with the god power and sometimes not?

[Marlowe89]

The route the manga is just as ambiguous. Goku just loses the Super Saiyan God form in the BOG retelling, but he can still access it later on, and it's never elaborated on how he could that, given Super Saiyan God is a temporary form.

I'd say the manga is far less confusing here simply because there are less ambiguities to deal with. In both versions, you have to conclude that Goku somehow permanently obtained the Super Saiyan God form, but the anime presents an additional obstacle of trying to figure out where the SSG-absorbed Super Saiyan fits within the bigger picture and how it relates to the current Super Saiyan God. Even right now in this thread, there's a debate going on about whether that state at the end of BoG was supposed to be temporary or permanent.

[Miracles]

why shouldnt we take this into consideration, i mean the guid books are just promotional material like this magazine yet we understand those are consistently accurate, this doesnt contradict anything in the anime or manga so why wouldnt this work, also it was never said MUI goku surpassed beerus yet we can all agree that yea he did, my point is if this contradicts nothing is the equivalent to a guide book and makes a lot of sense if you think about it, why shouldnt we atleast talk about it or would you wait for the anime, or manga to depict the same thing witch is unlikely for the manga to do and the anime is over for now and even when it does come back the odds of it explaining isnt likely ( maby in a gag scene with bulma threatening to call goku on beerus for being mean and beerus saying he doesnt want to fight UI cause hell loose but agian unlikely ), so what better options do we have than this honestly.

Time...We have to simply wait. When a goal is surpassed it is DIRECTLY stated, not in a round about way. No statements in the anime or manga like in the magazine, so it is a contradiction.

Whis stated that Jiren was stronger than a God that's stronger than Beerus. Then he goes on to state that he had destroyer-like might and likely surpassed the entire state as a whole while he was heavily suppressed. So no, the idea that Jiren was somehow kept below Beerus in the story is a whole lotta denial. It's not even worth taking seriously.

Beerus smiled at UI Omen since Goku was about to lose and was saved by activating UI. Ignoring context isn't going to change the fact that Beerus is fodder. The fact that Goku is stronger than him isn't the least bit important to him in front of his erasure.

Beerus was removed since he isn't relevant on the power scale anymore. That's your own bias keeping him relevant, not the story. The story says that UI Omen Goku and Jiren even while suppressed have gone above the state of God of Destruction and it has Vegeta beating a God of Destruction while being below UI Omen Goku and even a suppressed Jiren's level.

Whis statement was based on a "rumor," He only found out that Jiren was stronger than his god and he didn't apply Beerus in that scenario in the TOP.
We are going to need direct statements towards Beerus when surpassed, being the two main casters goal. We haven't had any as of yet.

[Lord Beerus]

The route the manga is just as ambiguous. Goku just loses the Super Saiyan God form in the BOG retelling, but he can still access it later on, and it's never elaborated on how he could that, given Super Saiyan God is a temporary form.

I'd say the manga is far less confusing here simply because there are less ambiguities to work with. In both versions, you have to conclude that Goku somehow permanently obtained the Super Saiyan God form, but the anime presents an additional obstacle of trying to figure out where the SSG-absorbed Super Saiyan fits within the bigger picture and how it relates to the current Super Saiyan God. Even right now in this thread, there's a debate going on about whether that state at the end of BoG was supposed to be temporary or permanent.

The situation with Goku and Vegeta having incredibly strong base forms, perhaps even reaching or in the realm of God tier, was strongly implied in both mediums post ROF, but right before the Champa arc started, the strength seemed to be nerfed (perhaps by Toriyama himself when he realized he made Goku and Vegeta too stronger during ROF) as the original SSJ golden form were reintroduced.

[Marlowe89]

The situation with Goku and Vegeta having incredibly strong base forms, perhaps even reaching or in the realm of God tier, was strongly implied in both mediums post ROF, but right before the Champa arc started, the strength seemed to be nerfed (perhaps by Toriyama himself when he realized he made Goku and Vegeta too stronger during ROF) as the original SSJ golden form were reintroduced.

That's always been my interpretation as well, at least in regards to the anime -- with the eventual establishment of initiatives such as Dragon Ball Room in addition to some of the creative decisions we're able to gleam from production interviews, it's only logical to presume that the franchise's heads would want both mediums to feel more congruous with each other (and with the initial outline) in some sense. However, I don't recall a "godly base" ever being implied in the manga version of Super prior to the Champa arc.

In any case, I think the real power-scaling issues start to arise when you have people who aren't as willing to acknowledge the possibility of a retcon as others. Personally, I think that's a problem of the narrative.

[ToshioWrites]

The situation with Goku and Vegeta having incredibly strong base forms, perhaps even reaching or in the realm of God tier, was strongly implied in both mediums post ROF, but right before the Champa arc started, the strength seemed to be nerfed (perhaps by Toriyama himself when he realized he made Goku and Vegeta too stronger during ROF) as the original SSJ golden form were reintroduced.

That's always been my interpretation as well, at least in regards to the anime -- with the eventual establishment of initiatives such as Dragon Ball Room in addition to some of the creative decisions we're able to gleam from production interviews, it's only logical to presume that the franchise's heads would want both mediums to feel more congruous in some sense. However, I don't recall a "godly base" ever having been implied in the manga version of Super prior to the Champa arc.

In any case, I think the real power-scaling issues start to arise when you have people who aren't as willing to acknowledge the possibility of a retcon as others. Personally, I think that's a problem of the narrative.

I don't think there was anything suggesting a "godly strong" base in the manga. After BoG ended we jumped to goku and vegeta training with whis after Revival F and we were told was that they got SSB.

Personally I like it better that Goku and Vegeta edge comes from their god forms as opposed to being strong enough to beat buu saga vegito in base or even their normal ss forms

[Kenneth La Torre]

I always had gokus and vegetas baseform way beyond ssj3, but far below ssg. The gapbewteen initial ssg and ssj3 was so huge that goku and vegeta could have attained ssj vegito levels of strength in their base forms, and still be nothing to initial ssg.

[Lord Beerus]

The situation with Goku and Vegeta having incredibly strong base forms, perhaps even reaching or in the realm of God tier, was strongly implied in both mediums post ROF, but right before the Champa arc started, the strength seemed to be nerfed (perhaps by Toriyama himself when he realized he made Goku and Vegeta too stronger during ROF) as the original SSJ golden form were reintroduced.

That's always been my interpretation as well, at least in regards to the anime -- with the eventual establishment of initiatives such as Dragon Ball Room in addition to some of the creative decisions we're able to gleam from production interviews, it's only logical to presume that the franchise's heads would want both mediums to feel more congruous in some sense. However, I don't recall a "godly base" ever having been implied in the manga version of Super prior to the Champa arc.

In any case, I think the real power-scaling issues start to arise when you have people who aren't as willing to acknowledge the possibility of a retcon as others. Personally, I think that's a problem of the narrative.

I don't think there was anything suggesting a "godly strong" base in the manga. After BoG ended we jumped to goku and vegeta training with whis after Revival F and we were told was that they got SSB.

Personally I like it better that Goku and Vegeta edge comes from their god forms as opposed to being strong enough to beat buu saga vegito in base or even their normal ss forms

The implication of Goku and Vegeta having incredibly strong base forms comes from this moment in Chapter 5:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
While Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest.

I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB, just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

And if that's not the case, doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees like you could in the anime?

[ToshioWrites]

That's always been my interpretation as well, at least in regards to the anime -- with the eventual establishment of initiatives such as Dragon Ball Room in addition to some of the creative decisions we're able to gleam from production interviews, it's only logical to presume that the franchise's heads would want both mediums to feel more congruous in some sense. However, I don't recall a "godly base" ever having been implied in the manga version of Super prior to the Champa arc.

In any case, I think the real power-scaling issues start to arise when you have people who aren't as willing to acknowledge the possibility of a retcon as others. Personally, I think that's a problem of the narrative.

I don't think there was anything suggesting a "godly strong" base in the manga. After BoG ended we jumped to goku and vegeta training with whis after Revival F and we were told was that they got SSB.

Personally I like it better that Goku and Vegeta edge comes from their god forms as opposed to being strong enough to beat buu saga vegito in base or even their normal ss forms

The implication of Goku and Vegeta having incredibly strong base forms comes from this moment in Chapter 5:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
While Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest.

I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB, just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

And if that's not the case, doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees like you could in the anime?

Whoever said ssb couldn't lower its power in the manga? You can do that in any form. The manga just chooses not to have goku spam blue vs every single person and then use the "ki control/holding back" explanation like the anime does. Goku and Vegeta only use blue vs opponents they need it against outside of Vegeta wanting to show Cabba the form to show him what he could achieve or in this sparring session when he was frustrated. Anyways SSB just amplifies your base so regardless of how strong his base is, if vegeta used any real power of ssb, goku would have been seriously injured. Its all relative

[Bullza]

The bolded that you said is not something that is in question. The narrator,Beerus and the episode title all explicitly state that Goku has gotten stronger than his SSG form upon becoming regular super saiyan. I am not sure what you mean when you say the super saiyan that fought Beerus is about the same as SSG goku but then say even Super Saiyan 3 Goku still isn't as strong as what Super Saiyan God was. Not sure how you come to this conclusion and they seem contradictor with me. Are you saying Goku's super saiyan is sometimes infused with the god power and sometimes not?

Well Super Saiyan Goku really was stronger than Super Saiyan God but Beerus did say that it was because the power of Super Saiyan God was still burning inside him even though it's appearance had gone.

The Tournament of Power though (and the Universe 6 saga in the manga) made it very clear that his regular Super Saiyan forms are not as powerful as Super Saiyan God.

So it would seem that it was just that one time when he was fighting Beerus was when his Super Saiyan form was as powerful as God and never again.

[Hugo Boss]

So it would seem that it was just that one time when he was fighting Beerus was when his Super Saiyan form was as powerful as God and never again.

Ironically, even Whis, who is known to give decent description of the fights, assumed Goku lost when the SSG aura disappeared. The scene is written in way that the natural consequence was Goku reverting to his original power, and since that didn’t happen Beerus concluded Goku mastered the god power. But a few months later, Whis remarks Goku and Vegeta were not at god level. At least, not until they were able to control god ki.

[ZombieVito]

That's always been my interpretation as well, at least in regards to the anime -- with the eventual establishment of initiatives such as Dragon Ball Room in addition to some of the creative decisions we're able to gleam from production interviews, it's only logical to presume that the franchise's heads would want both mediums to feel more congruous in some sense. However, I don't recall a "godly base" ever having been implied in the manga version of Super prior to the Champa arc.

In any case, I think the real power-scaling issues start to arise when you have people who aren't as willing to acknowledge the possibility of a retcon as others. Personally, I think that's a problem of the narrative.

I don't think there was anything suggesting a "godly strong" base in the manga. After BoG ended we jumped to goku and vegeta training with whis after Revival F and we were told was that they got SSB.

Personally I like it better that Goku and Vegeta edge comes from their god forms as opposed to being strong enough to beat buu saga vegito in base or even their normal ss forms

The implication of Goku and Vegeta having incredibly strong base forms comes from this moment in Chapter 5:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
While Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest.

I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB, just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

And if that's not the case, doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees like you could in the anime?

To add to this, Toyo's RoF manga implies it as well... Heavily.

[ToshioWrites]

So if Final Form Freeza <= Base Goku in Revival F then Base Cabba, Magetta and Even Frost (vegeta used ss albeit suppressed) would all kick his ass in final form, doesn't make sense

[Marlowe89]

To add to this, Toyo's RoF manga implies it as well... Heavily.

True, but that's a promotional tie-in for the movie. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it's 100% identical to Super's continuity, and it was drawn a few months prior to the beginning of the manga.

[ToshioWrites]

To add to this, Toyo's RoF manga implies it as well... Heavily.

True, but that's a promotional tie-in of the movie. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it's 100% identical to Super's continuity, and it was drawn a few months prior to the beginning of the manga.

Wasn’t there some v jump info for the Revival of F movie that said Goku and Vegeta could use godly ki in base and that going super saiyan on top of that led to ssb.

I always assumed that in the movie base Goku used god ki and he couldn’t stack ss forms on top

[Lord Beerus]

To add to this, Toyo's RoF manga implies it as well... Heavily.

True, but that's a promotional tie-in of the movie. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it's 100% identical to Super's continuity, and it was drawn a few months prior to the beginning of the manga.

Wasn’t there some v jump info for the Revival of F movie that said Goku and Vegeta could use godly ki in base and that going super saiyan on top of that led to ssb.

I always assumed that in the movie base Goku used god ki and he couldn’t stack ss forms on top

Yes, I know what you're talking about:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Oh, and in my previous post, I mistakenly posted the same manga page twice. I mean to post this:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

[ToshioWrites]

True, but that's a promotional tie-in of the movie. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it's 100% identical to Super's continuity, and it was drawn a few months prior to the beginning of the manga.

Wasn’t there some v jump info for the Revival of F movie that said Goku and Vegeta could use godly ki in base and that going super saiyan on top of that led to ssb.

I always assumed that in the movie base Goku used god ki and he couldn’t stack ss forms on top

Yes, I know what you're talking about:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Oh, and in my previous post, I mistakenly posted the same manga page twice. I mean to post this:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Thanks. Thats what I was looking for. My interpretation is that in the movie atleast it was base and ssb Use of yellow hair forms would have led him to be weaker than base that could use godly ki let alone ssb