Is the criticism against everyone getting the Super Saiyan form a legitimate one?

[PsionicWarrior]

Having not seen Super, do they elaborate more on god ki? What makes it different than mortal ki?

Since the series are on a break why don't you catch up?

[ABED]

Having not seen Super, do they elaborate more on god ki? What makes it different than mortal ki?

Since the series are on a break why don't you catch up?

Not enough interest, plus I'm not much for streaming through my laptop. I prefer physical media anyway, and it's not cheap enough for me to consider buying it.

[PsionicWarrior]

Not enough interest, plus I'm not much for streaming through my laptop. I prefer physical media anyway, and it's not cheap enough for me to consider buying it.

Ah, I understand. I could recommend you to read the manga then, it has contradictions with the anime but it's the same story. I personally prefer it to the anime, but the anime has its gems here and there.

[ekrolo2]

Having not seen Super, do they elaborate more on god ki? What makes it different than mortal ki?

Besides it being more powerful and not detectable by non-God ki using people (although the series flip flops on this) there is no real difference. They don't even use the non-detection thing to give Goku & Vegeta an edge over say Hit or Freeza.

[GamerSkull]

I just believe it devalues the legend as it was introduced in the Namek arc. I will always believe that Goku and Gohan should have been the only ones with the transformation... with only Gohan achieving the Super Saiyan 2 transformation.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I just believe it devalues the legend as it was introduced in the Namek arc. I will always believe that Goku and Gohan should have been the only ones with the transformation... with only Gohan achieving the Super Saiyan 2 transformation.

Gohan did fit with the potential crap they been spouted about him since the start but I didn't like how he got SS2 with #16 was just hammy to me. Goku sacrificing himself and then Cell coming back should have been the trigger in my opinion.

[DragonBallKing]

I think SSJ should have been the limit for the Z series and like others have said make gohans SSJ form stronger than his fathers and trunks via his rage boost, I also believe that in order to preserve the powerful pure hearted saiyan thing Vegeta should not have achieved SSJ until the buu arc either by using Babidi's magic to bypass the rule and through his sacrifice.

[ABED]

I think SSJ should have been the limit for the Z series and like others have said make gohans SSJ form stronger than his fathers and trunks via his rage boost, I also believe that in order to preserve the powerful pure hearted saiyan thing Vegeta should not have achieved SSJ until the buu arc either by using Babidi's magic to bypass the rule and through his sacrifice.

Pure hearted qualification was just conjecture.

[Forte224]

I think SSJ should have been the limit for the Z series and like others have said make gohans SSJ form stronger than his fathers and trunks via his rage boost, I also believe that in order to preserve the powerful pure hearted saiyan thing Vegeta should not have achieved SSJ until the buu arc either by using Babidi's magic to bypass the rule and through his sacrifice.

Pure hearted qualification was just conjecture.

I'd say it's a confirmed qualification if Toriyama felt the need to have Vegeta clarify that he was indeed pure...pure evil.

[ekrolo2]

I think SSJ should have been the limit for the Z series and like others have said make gohans SSJ form stronger than his fathers and trunks via his rage boost, I also believe that in order to preserve the powerful pure hearted saiyan thing Vegeta should not have achieved SSJ until the buu arc either by using Babidi's magic to bypass the rule and through his sacrifice.

Pure hearted qualification was just conjecture.

I'd say it's a confirmed qualification if Toriyama felt the need to have Vegeta clarify that he was indeed pure...pure evil.

Which is weird even with that line since Vegeta being a bastard is what keeps him from getting it on Namek but not in the Android arc.

[ABED]

And yet how does anyone know that? For years, Vegeta thought it was a myth and all of the sudden they're all experts on how to attain that form? I get the real world response, but ultimately that doesn't really matter. Toriyama can change his mind and it can still work in-universe that the characters were wrong. Also, Vegeta's a dick. Not everything he says is gospel. Besides, Vegeta is boasting.

[Forte224]

And yet how does anyone know that? For years, Vegeta thought it was a myth and all of the sudden they're all experts on how to attain that form? I get the real world response, but ultimately that doesn't really matter. Toriyama can change his mind and it can still work in-universe that the characters were wrong. Also, Vegeta's a dick. Not everything he says is gospel. Besides, Vegeta is boasting.

I don't understand why the real world response doesn't matter. Toriyama hasn't changed his mind, either.

[ABED]

And yet how does anyone know that? For years, Vegeta thought it was a myth and all of the sudden they're all experts on how to attain that form? I get the real world response, but ultimately that doesn't really matter. Toriyama can change his mind and it can still work in-universe that the characters were wrong. Also, Vegeta's a dick. Not everything he says is gospel. Besides, Vegeta is boasting.

I don't understand why the real world response doesn't matter. Toriyama hasn't changed his mind, either.

Because the real world whether he changes his mind doesn't matter if in-universe it can be easily explained as Vegeta's full of crap or they were just guessing or Vegeta was just boasting. While Vegeta is a monster, he's not pure evil even by that point. All that ultimately matters is the actual story because that's what most people will be reading or watching, not Toriyama's comments. The story must speak for itself.

I know some are against Vegeta attaining SSJ, but I like what it means for his character. He attains it but it doesn't get him what he wants.

[WittyUsername]

I’d say so. The transformation was initially set up and established as being this legendary power that’s nearly impossible to obtain, but it’s now just become a cheap power-up and nothing more. Not to mention that the form essentially became obsolete the moment they started introducing stronger levels of transformations.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

This really depends on how people vision the uniqueness of the form or what they expect from the characters to get it. There are a plethora of angles to what people say about it. Maybe the inane Saiyan-Centerism the series has now could make people sick of how expected it is for all Saiyans to get it just to keep up, or people hate it because the easier it is to get the less impact it has for the lore. Or it could be that people just want Goku & Vegeta to stay special due to how their stories for Super Saiyan were held so much higher than everyone else's next to Gohan being the apprentice for it. The issue is that there isn't any contrast anymore between those deemed special with it and those who can't get it. I mean Bardock getting it was pretty much where it died for me. Pure-Base form Saiyans are now the "rarity" now.

Maybe the space in between when characters get it is closing too tightly with Super which worsens it. If Cabba and Kale were the only ones with the forms for their universes first, it would have had Caulflia something she needed to work on herself for. Kale was saved from the heap simply because hers was different, and SSB for a while did this for Goku Vegeta (until they made it look inessential).

Transformations in general for Saiyans is getting tiresome because its like a factory mill for their growth now.

[blain218]

No its not a legit criticism. Because saiyans are supposed to be beings of infinite potential, people shouldn't have a problem with all of them inevitably getting the transformation and then some. It should be expected of them in the first place.

Its like complaining about other cultures rapidly gaining a new technology are one had created it.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

No its not a legit criticism. Because saiyans are supposed to be beings of infinite potential, people shouldn't have a problem with all of them inevitably getting the transformation and then some. It should be expected of them in the first place.

Its like complaining about other cultures rapidly gaining a new technology are one had created it.

You're using in-universe logic to justify out-universe writing patterns. Saiyans are only limitless because the endless transformations are a marketing point. Narratively it's cheap.

[blain218]

No its not a legit criticism. Because saiyans are supposed to be beings of infinite potential, people shouldn't have a problem with all of them inevitably getting the transformation and then some. It should be expected of them in the first place.

Its like complaining about other cultures rapidly gaining a new technology are one had created it.

You're using in-universe logic to justify out-universe writing patterns. Saiyans are only limitless because the endless transformations are a marketing point. Narratively it's cheap.

In-universe logic should dictate writing patterns. Otherwise you would just create plotholes.

[ABED]

But it's not illogical in universe for even the Saiyans to have limits.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

No its not a legit criticism. Because saiyans are supposed to be beings of infinite potential, people shouldn't have a problem with all of them inevitably getting the transformation and then some. It should be expected of them in the first place.

Its like complaining about other cultures rapidly gaining a new technology are one had created it.

You're using in-universe logic to justify out-universe writing patterns. Saiyans are only limitless because the endless transformations are a marketing point. Narratively it's cheap.

In-universe logic should dictate writing patterns. Otherwise you would just create plotholes.

In-universe logic should be for guidelines, not loopholes. Thats what retcons do. Its not a retcon to say Sayians are limitless but its not good writing to act on this so literally just because it gives market hype.