Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Are we to believe that Base Gohan by the Future Trunks saga had grown stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks thanks to Piccolo's training?

And that Piccolo would then be one hundred times as strong as that if he's about on par with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

[buutenks]

UI omen never fought a fullpower Jiren at all so I don't know where you're getting that information from.

Ep 127-129 Jiren is FP Jiren. So Incomplete UI did indeed fight a FP Jiren. This is stated by a Kai at the beginning of ep 130.

Are we to believe that Base Gohan by the Future Trunks saga had grown stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks thanks to Piccolo's training?

And that Piccolo would then be one hundred times as strong as that if he's about on par with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

I dont think so, Piccolo states that Gohan unlocked the power which he used vs Buu when he managed to get his Ultimate form back. So he was pretty weak till ep 88.

[Bullza]

I dont think so, Piccolo states that Gohan unlocked the power which he used vs Buu when he managed to get his Ultimate form back. So he was pretty weak till ep 88.

Well that is the other alternative.

So is Gohan during the Zen Exhibition similar in power to how he was in the Buu Saga, which would allow Basil and Lavender to be close in strength. Piccolo would then be around as strong as Buu.

Then after Episode 88, somehow Base Gohan got boosted up to above Piccolo and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan got boosted up to rival Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

[buutenks]

I dont think so, Piccolo states that Gohan unlocked the power which he used vs Buu when he managed to get his Ultimate form back. So he was pretty weak till ep 88.

Well that is the other alternative.

So is Gohan during the Zen Exhibition similar in power to how he was in the Buu Saga, which would allow Basil and Lavender to be close in strength. Piccolo would then be around as strong as Buu.

Then after Episode 88, somehow Base Gohan got boosted up to above Piccolo and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan got boosted up to rival Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

ye pretty much. TIll ep 88 Gohan was his old Buu saga PL, then in ep 90, he got boosted like everyone else.

I am sure the manga will shed light on where Gohan stands tho. The anime is too inconsistent to make a proper call.

IDk why Toei messes with the PL every chance they get. They did it with Z filler, GT, Movies and now Super.

[Hugo Boss]

So if Final Form Freeza <= Base Goku in Revival F then Base Cabba, Magetta and Even Frost (vegeta used ss albeit suppressed) would all kick his ass in final form, doesn't make sense

Not trying to defend the narrative, which is very subtle on this aspect, but Frost was about to use forbidden moves and Vegeta’s chance was an one shot. In another hand, he had his movements restricted when he fought Magetta and needed a way to reclaim advantage. Also, it looked like he had an edge over Cabba, which become more clear when they became Super Saiyans. So, since there is a possible different set of rules (Frost playing fair, Vegeta moving freely and not tutoring Cabba), you can work with the idea that at least one of these guys is not necessarily more powerful than that Goku from RoF Arc. Though, I agree Magetta would probably kick some ass given how he took the final flash and how Vegeta responded to him later in the Top Arc. Either way, it’s only recently that we see Freeza having confidence on taking Super Saiyans in his final form. We can just assume he got stronger in that form as well.

Do you think thats what was intended in the movie or was base goku USING god ki >= final form freeza and maybe the anime staff messed up or communication was off in that regard?

Cause my interpretation ( i could be wrong) is that in the movie goku could only go blue on top of his normal state that fought f form freeza.

I’m not sure. The anime and the movie are not clear about that. We have just a pamphlet suggesting that Goku (movie) has god-like power in his normal form and that SSGSS was the Super Saiyan version of that. Of course, it’s possible the movie and its respective anime episodes went with that idea, but someone else can just say Goku got too strong and try to work with it in a different way. My impression is that this detail is a bit difficult to handle, because they had 5 new warriors to give a challenge for Goku and Vegeta and little time to properly think about powerscale. So, I take what we got in the ToP Arc in this regard.

[SayianBeyondGod]

[quote="buutenks"
Ep 127-129 Jiren is FP Jiren. So Incomplete UI did indeed fight a FP Jiren. This is stated by a Kai at the beginning of ep 130.[/quote]

Actually epsiode 130 was FP Jiren, also supreme kai can be a bit exggerating.

[ToshioWrites]

FP Jiren came at the end of 129 after Jiren said “I must respond “ and fired his blast at Goku who at the moment was perfecting UI and then we saw MUI behind Jiren. 130 was Jiren tapping into dormant power that he just came out like it does for saiyans, I don’t think he was aware of it going into ToP

[Koitsukai]

Damn, what a useless arc the retelling of RoF was, even more so than what I always made of it, if they just explained or added a little something to the Goku vs FF Freeza fight like some godly sparks or red eyes, we would've overlooked the dreadful animation. They only needed to add a stupid comment, like those that were abundant and contradictory in the ToP, to clarify Goku's base form. Vegeta saying he has the same power when he faced Beerus or "i can't believe he is taking on Freeza in his base form" or "i can't believe Freeza can't defeat Kakarotto"

FP Jiren came at the end of 129 after Jiren said “I must respond “ and fired his blast at Goku who at the moment was perfecting UI and then we saw MUI behind Jiren. 130 was Jiren tapping into dormant power that he just came out like it does for saiyans, I don’t think he was aware of it going into ToP

I totally overlooked his power up when Goku was mastering UI, that galaxy thingy really outshined Jiren

[Kenneth La Torre]

Damn, what a useless arc the retelling of RoF was, even more so than what I always made of it, if they just explained or added a little something to the Goku vs FF Freeza fight like some godly sparks or red eyes, we would've overlooked the dreadful animation. They only needed to add a stupid comment, like those that were abundant and contradictory in the ToP, to clarify Goku's base form. Vegeta saying he has the same power when he faced Beerus or "i can't believe he is taking on Freeza in his base form" or "i can't believe Freeza can't defeat Kakarotto"

FP Jiren came at the end of 129 after Jiren said “I must respond “ and fired his blast at Goku who at the moment was perfecting UI and then we saw MUI behind Jiren. 130 was Jiren tapping into dormant power that he just came out like it does for saiyans, I don’t think he was aware of it going into ToP

I totally overlooked his power up when Goku was mastering UI, that galaxy thingy really outshined Jiren

Just the galaxy thing? MUI goku made FP jiren look like yamcha. Which also says a lot on how massive of a boost his dormant power was.

[Bullza]

Actually epsiode 130 was FP Jiren, also supreme kai can be a bit exggerating.

That was hidden power Jiren. He used his full power after Toppo was defeated.

[Hugo Boss]

So is Gohan during the Zen Exhibition similar in power to how he was in the Buu Saga, which would allow Basil and Lavender to be close in strength. Piccolo would then be around as strong as Buu.

Then after Episode 88, somehow Base Gohan got boosted up to above Piccolo and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan got boosted up to rival Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Assuming Gohan is similar to his Boo Arc levels, Piccolo can beat SS2 Gohan, but doesn’t Boo have power comparable to SS3 Goku? Or do you think Boo got permanently weaker after expelling the evil Boo?

In episode 90, it looked like Gohan was serious while Goku was not, so perhaps Piccolo and Gohan weren’t exactly in Goku’s level. When they fought the Namekian duo, it looked like all four were more or less even too. In another hand, when Boo fought Goku, it looked like he had a slight advantage.

[ToshioWrites]

Just accept the power boosts in super are very generous. "How can insert x become this strong in "insert short amount of time".

Remember in Z when goku got thousands of times stronger in one week. Super has taken that and handed that to everybody. Whether we like it or not, thats how it is.

[Bullza]

Assuming Gohan is similar to his Boo Arc levels, Piccolo can beat SS2 Gohan, but doesn’t Boo have power comparable to SS3 Goku? Or do you think Boo got permanently weaker after expelling the evil Boo?

I made a thread on this a long time ago and apparently he did get weaker.

According to Herms

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

But based on how he performed against Kid Buu I'd have still said Good Buu was stronger than a Super Saiyan 2.

In episode 90, it looked like Gohan was serious while Goku was not, so perhaps Piccolo and Gohan weren’t exactly in Goku’s level. When they fought the Namekian duo, it looked like all four were more or less even too. In another hand, when Boo fought Goku, it looked like he had a slight advantage.

Yeah Gohan and Goku seemed evenly matched but then Gohan moved away, powered up, Goku did not but when they are continued fighting they were still evenly matched so perhaps Goku wasn't giving his best.

But considering how his Ultimate Form seemed to go from Super Buu level to Super Blue level I could see his Base form jumping up past Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks I guess.

Goku if he's supposed to be above Gotenks should be well above Buu. So perhaps he wasn't trying fully there either. He was keeping up with Buu and that was when he said he was faster than before too so it should imply he was above Fat Buu maybe.

[ToshioWrites]

I posted this before but if we get a line from shin saying that suppressed jiren is stronger than any enemy they've ever faced before then i think you have to go with the narrative route for scaling. What i mean is that in toriyama outline and manga, m zamasu is only supposed to be ssb goku/vegeta level so suppressed jiren should be stronger than him considering he's above his own GoD. however in the anime , while vegito was superior to zamasu the gap didn't appear to be anything crazy so the assumption from shins statement in 109 would have been heavily suppressed jiren > ssb vegito since he was only shown a bit above merged zamasu but toei ignored the outline it seems. Hopefully we get some comparison between vegito and jiren in the manga, maybe when jiren goes full power shin says something about how only one ki he's ever felt this strong or something

[Kenneth La Torre]

Actually epsiode 130 was FP Jiren, also supreme kai can be a bit exggerating.

That was hidden power Jiren. He used his full power after Toppo was defeated.

He actually ised his full power at the end of 129, when he created that enourmous power impact that goku slapped out of existence.

[ZombieVito]

I dont think so, Piccolo states that Gohan unlocked the power which he used vs Buu when he managed to get his Ultimate form back. So he was pretty weak till ep 88.

Well that is the other alternative.

So is Gohan during the Zen Exhibition similar in power to how he was in the Buu Saga, which would allow Basil and Lavender to be close in strength. Piccolo would then be around as strong as Buu.

Then after Episode 88, somehow Base Gohan got boosted up to above Piccolo and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan got boosted up to rival Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

ye pretty much. TIll ep 88 Gohan was his old Buu saga PL, then in ep 90, he got boosted like everyone else.

I am sure the manga will shed light on where Gohan stands tho. The anime is too inconsistent to make a proper call.

IDk why Toei messes with the PL every chance they get. They did it with Z filler, GT, Movies and now Super.

I don't think so. Gohan can't be the same as his Boo arc self.

Nothing indicates that Lavender is that much different from Basil and the latter was not that much weaker than Boo.

Gohan's base can't be Namek Freeza level. No way.

P.S. There's also his fight with Goku in E75.

[JazzMazz]

Well that is the other alternative.

So is Gohan during the Zen Exhibition similar in power to how he was in the Buu Saga, which would allow Basil and Lavender to be close in strength. Piccolo would then be around as strong as Buu.

Then after Episode 88, somehow Base Gohan got boosted up to above Piccolo and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan got boosted up to rival Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

ye pretty much. TIll ep 88 Gohan was his old Buu saga PL, then in ep 90, he got boosted like everyone else.

I am sure the manga will shed light on where Gohan stands tho. The anime is too inconsistent to make a proper call.

IDk why Toei messes with the PL every chance they get. They did it with Z filler, GT, Movies and now Super.

I don't think so. Gohan can't be the same as his Boo arc self.

Nothing indicates that Lavender is that much different from Basil and the latter was not that much weaker than Boo.

Gohan's base can't be Namek Freeza level. No way.

P.S. There's also his fight with Goku in E75.

Yeah, I disagree.

Maybe with his drug fruit he wasn't that much weaker than Buu, but as a base, Buu absolutely annihilated him as soon as he got serious.

I'd say on a base, his considerably weaker than Buu when serious, which I think definitely puts him in a similar league to the Super Saiyans(with the exception of 3) of the Buu arc.

[Bullza]

The Gohan and Lavender fight was awkward. At first Base Gohan fought on par with him, then when he concentrated Lavender couldn't even hit him and then Super Saiyan Gohan fought on par with him.

So it's hard to say where he stands exactly in comparison.

If we assumed Basil and Lavender were equal then you could argue that Super Saiyan Gohan was weaker than Buu just as he was in the Buu saga still which would somewhat make sense.

[JazzMazz]

The Gohan and Lavender fight was awkward. At first Base Gohan fought on par with him, then when he concentrated Lavender couldn't even hit him and then Super Saiyan Gohan fought on par with him.

So it's hard to say where he stands exactly in comparison.

If we assumed Basil and Lavender were equal then you could argue that Super Saiyan Gohan was weaker than Buu just as he was in the Buu saga still which would somewhat make sense.

I think its also worth mentioning some of the technicalities surrounding the fight, namely that Gohan was continually growing weaker as the fight continued due to being poisoned and expending his energy in Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan Gohan should be stronger but I'm not sure if Lavender if more comparable to that level or Base level.

I'd say Buu was Super Saiyan 2+ level. Drugged Basil was Super Saiyan 2 level. Basil and Lavender were Super Saiyan level, perhaps comparable to say Perfect Cell perhaps.

If Super Saiyan Gohan is comparable to how he was in Z then it would kind of make sense that he'd be about on the level of Lavender.

Otherwise it would mean Base Gohan would be stronger than Perfect Cell......but now I've just remembered that he was actually heavily implied to be above Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga so it actually wouldn't be weird at all for him to be that strong.