Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

HOWEVER, one of the Kaioshin from the 4 non-competing Universes comments on what Jiren's full-power will do against Goku's mastered Ultra Instinct..

Yep...

https://imgur.com/YM4vB8M

[Kenneth La Torre]

He actually ised his full power at the end of 129, when he created that enourmous power impact that goku slapped out of existence.

Nothing implies that was his full power, the ki blast being big doesn't prove it at all. Beerus used a big ki blast to destroy the Earth for example.

HOWEVER, one of the Kaioshin from the 4 non-competing Universes comments on what Jiren's full-power will do against Goku's mastered Ultra Instinct.

Jiren is then shown getting his sh*t stomped; it's clear he's really struggling despite his overwhelming power, only managing to make headway by awakening power hidden within him.

As well, I believe promotional material and/or spoilers may have described Jiren's attack against Ultra Instinct Omen Goku asa full-power blast, though I'll need to cross-reference that one to be sure.

Your right. And to top it all at the very beggining of 130 (before jiren breaks his limits), universe 1s kaioshin question how goku will fare against “a full power jiren”. Pretty much states that jiren was already at full power, probably since the ending of 129.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Nothing implies that was his full power, the ki blast being big doesn't prove it at all. Beerus used a big ki blast to destroy the Earth for example.

HOWEVER, one of the Kaioshin from the 4 non-competing Universes comments on what Jiren's full-power will do against Goku's mastered Ultra Instinct.

Jiren is then shown getting his sh*t stomped; it's clear he's really struggling despite his overwhelming power, only managing to make headway by awakening power hidden within him.

As well, I believe promotional material and/or spoilers may have described Jiren's attack against Ultra Instinct Omen Goku asa full-power blast, though I'll need to cross-reference that one to be sure.

Your right. And to top it all at the very beggining of 130 (before jiren breaks his limits), universe 1s kaioshin question how goku will fare against “a full power jiren”. Pretty much states that jiren was already at full power, probably since the ending of 129.

That's not universe 11 kai, how would he know if Jiren's at full power? If anything he's making an assumption or guess rather than implying it to be objective. Jaco can say the same thing and you guys would buy it. You can't take character statements to 100% credibility and neglect the presented feats. Kefla thinks she's the strongest fighter so does Vegeta out of the Saiyans, so Kefla>Jiren or Vegeta>UI Omen Goku. The spoilers tend to lie about Jiren using full power too, making character statement possible when hyping Jiren. Regardless we clearly see Jiren use more power in episode 130 when facing the new UI Goku, is pretty blatant that 129 Jiren isn't at full power. I don't see any statement or proof that Jiren broke his limits, it seems pretty subjective. The only instance I see is when Jiren from 130 when fighting the new UI after transforming being forced to use more power due to remember his trauma, but I don't recall anything limit breaking being mention.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

HOWEVER, one of the Kaioshin from the 4 non-competing Universes comments on what Jiren's full-power will do against Goku's mastered Ultra Instinct.

Jiren is then shown getting his sh*t stomped; it's clear he's really struggling despite his overwhelming power, only managing to make headway by awakening power hidden within him.

As well, I believe promotional material and/or spoilers may have described Jiren's attack against Ultra Instinct Omen Goku asa full-power blast, though I'll need to cross-reference that one to be sure.

Your right. And to top it all at the very beggining of 130 (before jiren breaks his limits), universe 1s kaioshin question how goku will fare against “a full power jiren”. Pretty much states that jiren was already at full power, probably since the ending of 129.

That's not universe 11 kai, how would he know if Jiren's at full power? If anything he's making an assumption or guess rather than implying it to be objective. You can't take character statement to 100% credibility and neglect the presented feats. Kefla thinks she's the strongest fighter so does Vegeta out of the Saiyans, so Kefla>Jiren or Vegeta>UI Omen Goku. The spoilers tend to lie about Jiren using full power too, making character statement possible when hyping Jiren. Regardless we clearly see Jiren use more power in episode 130 when facing the new UI Goku, is pretty blatant that 129 Jiren isn't at full power.

The difference, though, is that Jiren's power-up in episode 130 is narratively treated as something beyond his normal limits, something that isn't his "usual" full power and instead some kind of potential he brings out because his full power isn't working, and he can't accept that.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Your right. And to top it all at the very beggining of 130 (before jiren breaks his limits), universe 1s kaioshin question how goku will fare against “a full power jiren”. Pretty much states that jiren was already at full power, probably since the ending of 129.

That's not universe 11 kai, how would he know if Jiren's at full power? If anything he's making an assumption or guess rather than implying it to be objective. You can't take character statement to 100% credibility and neglect the presented feats. Kefla thinks she's the strongest fighter so does Vegeta out of the Saiyans, so Kefla>Jiren or Vegeta>UI Omen Goku. The spoilers tend to lie about Jiren using full power too, making character statement possible when hyping Jiren. Regardless we clearly see Jiren use more power in episode 130 when facing the new UI Goku, is pretty blatant that 129 Jiren isn't at full power.

The difference, though, is that Jiren's power-up in episode 130 is narratively treated as something beyond his normal limits, something that isn't his "usual" full power and instead some kind of potential he brings out because his full power isn't working, and he can't accept that.

I'm waiting to hear the objective statements or proof. Vaguely claiming it's narratively implied doesn't prove anything and seems subjective. I only buy it if it's later when losing to UI Goku and remembering that past trauma, but not when transforming. It's not hard to accept he's just using more power or upset he needs to use more power near his actual limit that's already accessible. Even the spoilers describe it as just a power up rather than breaking any limits in the first place:

[OLKv3]

That's not universe 11 kai, how would he know if Jiren's at full power? If anything he's making an assumption or guess rather than implying it to be objective. You can't take character statement to 100% credibility and neglect the presented feats. Kefla thinks she's the strongest fighter so does Vegeta out of the Saiyans, so Kefla>Jiren or Vegeta>UI Omen Goku. The spoilers tend to lie about Jiren using full power too, making character statement possible when hyping Jiren. Regardless we clearly see Jiren use more power in episode 130 when facing the new UI Goku, is pretty blatant that 129 Jiren isn't at full power.

The difference, though, is that Jiren's power-up in episode 130 is narratively treated as something beyond his normal limits, something that isn't his "usual" full power and instead some kind of potential he brings out because his full power isn't working, and he can't accept that.

I'm waiting to hear the objective statements or proof. Vaguely claiming it's narratively implied doesn't prove anything and seems subjective. I only buy it if it's later when losing to UI Goku and remembering that past trauma, but not when transforming. It's not hard to accept he's just using more power or upset he needs to use more power near his actual limit that's already accessible. Even the spoilers describe it as just a power up rather than breaking any limits in the first place:

They literally call it his hidden power in the episode. They even show Jiren flipping out having a flashback saying he can't experience being weak again after getting beaten up before his new power up, and last episode Jiren himself says he's using his full power against Omen Goku.
The transformation isn't normal, it was Jiren doing the same thing Goku and the rest did all tournament. Broke his limits and accessed new power he didn't have previously.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think the power of base Gohan / Picolo is something very confusing.

Yes, supposedly, the base power Gohan is equal to the basic Goku. But then, why Goku, only in SSJ2, was able to rival the power of Ultimate Gohan, who is much stronger than his own SSJ2?
So, the power of base Goku is higher than the base Gohan?

Piccolo easily defeated SSJ2 Gohan, who supposedly was on the same level as SSJ2 Goku, but why his charged attack was defended by
base Goku on EP 90?
So, would Piccolo be below Caulifla and Kyabe?

[namekiansaiyan]

The difference, though, is that Jiren's power-up in episode 130 is narratively treated as something beyond his normal limits, something that isn't his "usual" full power and instead some kind of potential he brings out because his full power isn't working, and he can't accept that.

I'm waiting to hear the objective statements or proof. Vaguely claiming it's narratively implied doesn't prove anything and seems subjective. I only buy it if it's later when losing to UI Goku and remembering that past trauma, but not when transforming. It's not hard to accept he's just using more power or upset he needs to use more power near his actual limit that's already accessible. Even the spoilers describe it as just a power up rather than breaking any limits in the first place:

They literally call it his hidden power in the episode. They even show Jiren flipping out having a flashback saying he can't experience being weak again after getting beaten up before his new power up, and last episode Jiren himself says he's using his full power against Omen Goku.
The transformation isn't normal, it was Jiren doing the same thing Goku and the rest did all tournament. Broke his limits and accessed new power he didn't have previously.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I think Jiren's hidden power is similar to how Gohan accessed his Ultimate form again in episode 88 and I wouldn't really consider that a limit breaker. I wouldn't consider hidden power and limit breaker to be the same thing.

[Bullza]

I think the power of base Gohan / Picolo is something very confusing.

Yes, supposedly, the base power Gohan is equal to the basic Goku. But then, why Goku, only in SSJ2, was able to rival the power of Ultimate Gohan, who is much stronger than his own SSJ2?
So, the power of base Goku is higher than the base Gohan?

Piccolo easily defeated SSJ2 Gohan, who supposedly was on the same level as SSJ2 Goku, but why his charged attack was defended by
base Goku on EP 90?
So, would Piccolo be below Caulifla and Kyabe?

I think considering that Base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, I'd find it completely absurd to think Piccolo would have become over a hundred times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Just a year prior he wasn't even as strong as Buu.

But even then if Piccolo went from being as strong as Base Gohan to as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan then he must have got a hundred times stronger in just one year.

Unless after Gohan got back his Ultimate Form and did his off screen training for a day, Gohan got boosted up so now his Base form was stronger than his previous Super Saiyan 2 form and thus Piccolo.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku = Super Saiyan 2 Gohan >> Base Goku = Base Gohan > Piccolo = Super Saiyan 2 Gohan >> Base Gohan (before)

[Kenneth La Torre]

I wonder if well ever get a name for jirens dormant limit breaking powers. I'm upset that no comment was made despite the fact that it was exactly the same aura as that if UI, but red. The manga needs to fill us in on a lot of stuff. Mainly on where kefla ssj2 and people with similar power stand compared to hakaishins.

[SayianBeyondGod]

The difference, though, is that Jiren's power-up in episode 130 is narratively treated as something beyond his normal limits, something that isn't his "usual" full power and instead some kind of potential he brings out because his full power isn't working, and he can't accept that.

I'm waiting to hear the objective statements or proof. Vaguely claiming it's narratively implied doesn't prove anything and seems subjective. I only buy it if it's later when losing to UI Goku and remembering that past trauma, but not when transforming. It's not hard to accept he's just using more power or upset he needs to use more power near his actual limit that's already accessible. Even the spoilers describe it as just a power up rather than breaking any limits in the first place:

They literally call it his hidden power in the episode. They even show Jiren flipping out having a flashback saying he can't experience being weak again after getting beaten up before his new power up, and last episode Jiren himself says he's using his full power against Omen Goku.
The transformation isn't normal, it was Jiren doing the same thing Goku and the rest did all tournament. Broke his limits and accessed new power he didn't have previously.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I don't see how hidden power implies breaking any limit, if anything is safe to presume it's just Jiren using more of his power. It's not like it's refered as hidden potential. I don't know why you think Gohan knows Jiren enough to know his limits, considering he's the one that made the statement. But as i said, even the spoilers imply it to be a power up hence reinforcing the fact it's just him using more power which is already accesible. I watched the epsiode again Jiren never said he was at fullpower agasint UI omen if anything it's all of his power in his supressed state.

[Helios518]

I don't see how hidden power implies breaking any limit, if anything is safe to presume it's just Jiren using more of his power. It's not like it's refered as hidden potential. I don't know why you think Gohan knows Jiren enough to know his limits, considering he's the one that made the statement. But as i said, even the spoilers imply it to be a power up hence reinforcing the fact it's just him using more power which is already accesible. I watched the epsiode again Jiren never said he was at fullpower agasint UI omen if anything it's all of his power in his supressed state.

A power up doesn't just refer to some use more of their current power; it could also mean they gained new power. Also I rather take what the U1 god says, and Gohan saying he's unlocking more hidden power like how he and Goku has done than just ignoring them. Hell, why would the U11 Kaioshin be worried that Geran got overpowered so much, if he hasn't used his full power? Also someone doesn't need to say their using full power, to know they're using full power otherwise I could argue that Geran and Goku never used full power because they never said so.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The safest best is to say that Goku and Jiren are indeed above the Hakaishin. By how much is unknown, but enough that they're both reasonably beyond them in a straight fight.

Of course, I'm personally of the opinion that the narrative strongly implies that Goku has far surpassed the Hakaishin, what with all of them standing up in respect when he masters the Ultra Instinct, Anat wondering how Goku will fight against a full-power Jiren, and the initial fight between Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku showing Jiren utterly struggling and not powering up in his usual manner; his normal manner of powering up is much more controlled despite the shouting.

When Jiren awakened his hidden power by remembering his past trauma, he was breaking down and losing himself to his annihilation at the hands of Goku; this clearly tells me, at least, that this isn't Jiren's normal power and instead something pulled out due to desperation.

But then again, we all interpret things differently and hardly ever come to clear consensus on things. We have a lot of time to argue about this

[RandomGuy96]

I know it's probably a waste to even ask, but how do people still solidly believe that base Goku/Vegeta is stronger than (Buu-era) SS3 Gotenks? Shouldn't the Ultimate Gohan and fat Buu stuff have debunked that completely or do people actually believe that Gohan got a thousand times stronger in like a week and Bergamo is a thousand times stronger than his brothers?

[Kenneth La Torre]

I know it's probably a waste to even ask, but how do people still solidly believe that base Goku/Vegeta is stronger than (Buu-era) SS3 Gotenks? Shouldn't the Ultimate Gohan and fat Buu stuff have debunked that completely or do people actually believe that Gohan got a thousand times stronger in like a week and Bergamo is a thousand times stronger than his brothers?

Yes, gohan is tremendeously more powerful than his buu saga self, big enought to compete against ssb level foes, who make ss vegito look like fodder.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The safest best is to say that Goku and Jiren are indeed above the Hakaishin. By how much is unknown, but enough that they're both reasonably beyond them in a straight fight.

Of course, I'm personally of the opinion that the narrative strongly implies that Goku has far surpassed the Hakaishin, what with all of them standing up in respect when he masters the Ultra Instinct, Anat wondering how Goku will fight against a full-power Jiren, and the initial fight between Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku showing Jiren utterly struggling and not powering up in his usual manner; his normal manner of powering up is much more controlled despite the shouting.

When Jiren awakened his hidden power by remembering his past trauma, he was breaking down and losing himself to his annihilation at the hands of Goku; this clearly tells me, at least, that this isn't Jiren's normal power and instead something pulled out due to desperation.

But then again, we all interpret things differently and hardly ever come to clear consensus on things. We have a lot of time to argue about this

I really didnt like how they treated his dormant power in 130, in a story sense. He awakened a power similar in looks to UI, and was at first stronger than gokus initial MUI and could somewhat keep up with a boosted MUI. Yet, no comments from the gods about ut, exept beerus saying “this isnt good”. Funny, because this powered up jiren hasnt appeared anywhere outside of the anime, not even in dokkan battle/xenoverse/heroes.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I know it's probably a waste to even ask, but how do people still solidly believe that base Goku/Vegeta is stronger than (Buu-era) SS3 Gotenks? Shouldn't the Ultimate Gohan and fat Buu stuff have debunked that completely or do people actually believe that Gohan got a thousand times stronger in like a week and Bergamo is a thousand times stronger than his brothers?

Nah.

With regards to Bergamo, I'm not convinced his "power level" is up to snuff with Goku's own; he's merely strong enough to engage in a straight brawl with Goku, though he is inferior overall as seen in the actual tournament; Buu is in a similar scenario where he's increased in martial arts proficiency to tangle with Goku quite effectively in a straight brawl.

As for Gohan, I truly do believe he got that strong. He's been training a lot in the series up until he reawakened Ultimate, so once he gained that power again, he started to tap into latent potential from his prior training along with the training he did with Piccolo that night, breaking his limits; I also believe he broke his limits when he fought with Goku, expanding his Ultimate power further.

[JazzMazz]

I know it's probably a waste to even ask, but how do people still solidly believe that base Goku/Vegeta is stronger than (Buu-era) SS3 Gotenks? Shouldn't the Ultimate Gohan and fat Buu stuff have debunked that completely or do people actually believe that Gohan got a thousand times stronger in like a week and Bergamo is a thousand times stronger than his brothers?

Yeah, people would rather keep every piece of information as canon, rather than treat some feats as outliers of what the characters should be capable of. That Gotenks stuff was obviously an outlier that the writers just kind of forgot about.

As for how strong I think Gohan is in the TOP, I would say his considerably stronger than a SS2 Goku. So I would roughly put him on the same level of power as someone like Kale.

As for where I think the base Saiyan's stand, no, I don't think they've consistently shown to be above Gotenk's strength in their base form. With the information that's been presented to us in the TOP arc, the base Saiyan's seem to be more in line with Super Saiyan and SS2 levels of power during the Cell and Buu arc. I base this on how well Piccolo, a character who would later shown to be comparable to the base Saiyan's throughout the TOP through his consistent battles beside a base Gohan(something that appears to be consistent in both mediums), fight with an SS2 Gohan, where he was on par, if not slightly weaker.

Yes the leap is still massive, but I think it makes far more sense than everyone's stronger than Gotenk's because of an outlier.

EDIT: I think people grossly over-estimate characters because they don't take into account the idea that weaker characters can fight stronger characters for extended periods of time, even when the stronger character serious. The weaker character in these scenario's though, often can't keep up the pace, and fall behind constantly throughout the battle, despite being capable of exchanging blows(the best example of this to me would be Pre power-up Jiren vs MUI Goku, 17, Vegeta and Goku fighting Jiren in 127, any of Goku's SSB showdowns with Jiren or for an even more direct comparison relating to Gohan, look no further than his fight with SS2 Goku).

[Kenneth La Torre]

I know it's probably a waste to even ask, but how do people still solidly believe that base Goku/Vegeta is stronger than (Buu-era) SS3 Gotenks? Shouldn't the Ultimate Gohan and fat Buu stuff have debunked that completely or do people actually believe that Gohan got a thousand times stronger in like a week and Bergamo is a thousand times stronger than his brothers?

Yeah, people would rather keep every piece of information as canon, rather than treat some feats as outliers of what the characters should be capable of.

Or maybe, just maybe (sarcasm on the word “maybe”), since gohan is around ssb level in his mystic form, and ssb level characters put ss vegito to shame, gohan did get thousands of times more powerful than when he fought super buu.

[Bullza]

I know it's probably a waste to even ask, but how do people still solidly believe that base Goku/Vegeta is stronger than (Buu-era) SS3 Gotenks? Shouldn't the Ultimate Gohan and fat Buu stuff have debunked that completely or do people actually believe that Gohan got a thousand times stronger in like a week and Bergamo is a thousand times stronger than his brothers?

It's a bit up in the air I'd say.

They haven't been nerfed by a drastic amount even if that did happen. Base Future Trunks was stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks.

Base Goku can keep up with Slim Buu who was faster than Fat Buu who was above a Super Saiyan 2. The manga not that long ago made it clear he's above the Supreme Kai.

I'd say there wasn't a retcon. The Buu fight wasn't really an issue for me, he gave Base Goku a bit of trouble but then so did Krillin. I chalk that up to just sparring and them using tricks.

Bergamo would be an odd one because I'd say his brothers were Perfect Cell level so he'd have to be massively more powerful. Base Gohan would also to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks as well and that's kinda weird.