i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Lujin_16
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i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Lujin_16 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:43 am

I'm more pissed about Z who has introduced it..i don't think it is easy for super to please all people with powerlevels that's why they introduced more
techniques than power for example HIT or they made Zamasu immortal and don't forget the rules with no killing allowed in the tournament of Power to give
the old cast some good moments

I'm right???

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by TBMx » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:08 am

You are not. Goku, 17, Trunks' and Gohan's powerups are breaches in continuity that show no regard for anything resembling coherent or rational writing. This turns Super into an anything goes setting, where the stakes become meaningless, the tension non existent, and the struggle petty.

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:11 am

While I cannot deny Z isn't irreproachable in terms of power levels I genuinely believe Super took the power levels issues to a whole new level lol
maybe to a Super level :o

So me says you are not right lol

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by emperior » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:09 pm

I used to seriously dislike Super's power-scaling inconsistencies, but I've stopped to care about those as they didn't really "ruin" the show for me. For example, I remember many people being disappointed about how Future Trunks was able to kick Rosè Black in episode 57, but that's a case where the fight didn't suddenly turn in Trunks' favor and that scene was actually entertaining to me.

I have started to look at Super more like a martial arts-focused show. I like how strong characters no longer have the overwhelming advantage over everyone else, which makes it feel more realistic and also gives writers more flexibility to make some entertaining battles even between two fighters on different levels of power.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want power scaling to be messy, but I would prefer it if the show handled power and battles like in OG DB rather than like in DBZ.
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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by sintzu » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:35 pm

Z introduced power levels but unlike Super it kept things consistant to a degree. Super on the other hand is all over the place and has no regard for what was previously established.

No one's asking for acurate numbers but just basic knowledge of how the characters compare to one another. That's a very basic thing not only in the original DB but other shonen, why it's an issue in Super and why people defend it is beyond me.
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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Puaru » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:06 pm

I hate how so many other characters got to be SSB level but not Gohan. He just sucks.

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Jackalope89 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:40 pm

Other than "Character A is stronger than Character B", I never really bothered much with power levels beyond that.

And don't get me started on the numbered crap that still pops up from time to time. :problem:

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Ziegander » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:15 pm

Puaru wrote:I hate how so many other characters got to be SSB level but not Gohan. He just sucks.
I won't argue whether or not Gohan sucks, because Super wrote him PATHETICALLY poorly, but he's easily blue level. It took Blue to go toe to toe with Dyspo, Perfect Golden Frieza being at least as strong or stronger than that, and Super Speed Dyspo thrashed PGolden Frieza. Gohan didn't do any worse than Frieza against Dyspo's super speed and dealt with normal Dyspo quite handily. The only reason he sacrificed himself was because Frieza couldn't keep him contained anymore and Dyspo would have been free to pour on the speed again and potentially eliminate them both.
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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Logania » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:23 pm

Z and Super have power level inconsistencies and issues, but for Z at least it had a sense of consistency.

Super however, just has little throw away lines that give characters huge leaps of strength for no reason with Roshi being the biggest offender in the series. Just saying you're training in secret isn't gonna make me see Roshi going head to head against base Goku, which is essentially stronger than all of Z, and not make me groan.
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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Asura » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:00 pm

People who complain about Super’s “power levels” are probably 99% of the time referring to power consistency, not exact mathematical numbers. Z never had any issues with this, even when power levels were not really a thing anymore in the Cell and Buu sagas.

Super’s consistency is all over the place. I challenged people to give me a tier list of all the major players of the Tournament of Power and how they rank. No one could do it, or at least no one even tried, because it can’t be done. I’m not referring to the tiers like “S” “A” “B” etc. but an actual complete list of everyone ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

Meanwhile you can very easily rank everyone in every single arc of Z as to who is more powerful than who.

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:36 pm

Asura wrote:People who complain about Super’s “power levels” are probably 99% of the time referring to power consistency, not exact mathematical numbers. Z never had any issues with this, even when power levels were not really a thing anymore in the Cell and Buu sagas.

Super’s consistency is all over the place. I challenged people to give me a tier list of all the major players of the Tournament of Power and how they rank. No one could do it, or at least no one even tried, because it can’t be done. I’m not referring to the tiers like “S” “A” “B” etc. but an actual complete list of everyone ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

Meanwhile you can very easily rank everyone in every single arc of Z as to who is more powerful than who.
I don't see necessarily how thats a particularly awful thing.

I think the way you've framed it, really doesn't make it come off as being a bad thing in the least.

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by PFM18 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:49 am

You shouldn't be pissed about the power levels in DB Super. Dragon Ball has always prioritized a compelling story over powerlevel consistency. This is not something new and the power levels and the gains in power were very inconsistent in DBZ too this is not a new thing. There is absolutely no reason to be angry about the power levels in DBS unless you are pissed about the power levels in the rest of the series

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Diccolo-420 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:08 am

PFM18 wrote:You shouldn't be pissed about the power levels in DB Super. Dragon Ball has always prioritized a compelling story over powerlevel consistency. This is not something new and the power levels and the gains in power were very inconsistent in DBZ too this is not a new thing. There is absolutely no reason to be angry about the power levels in DBS unless you are pissed about the power levels in the rest of the series
Two wrongs don't make a right, and the "inconsistencies" in DBZ were far less of an issue than Super, and most of those started popping up in the Buu Saga. You could pretty much tell and have a decent explanation for who is as strong as what, despite as unbelievable as it may be (earth tech being much stronger than Frieza? LOL).

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Puaru » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:54 am

Ziegander wrote:
Puaru wrote:I hate how so many other characters got to be SSB level but not Gohan. He just sucks.
I won't argue whether or not Gohan sucks, because Super wrote him PATHETICALLY poorly, but he's easily blue level. It took Blue to go toe to toe with Dyspo, Perfect Golden Frieza being at least as strong or stronger than that, and Super Speed Dyspo thrashed PGolden Frieza. Gohan didn't do any worse than Frieza against Dyspo's super speed and dealt with normal Dyspo quite handily. The only reason he sacrificed himself was because Frieza couldn't keep him contained anymore and Dyspo would have been free to pour on the speed again and potentially eliminate them both.
No, Dyspo was fast but not strong. Nobody really took damage from his punches. Gohan taking on Dyspo in a situation where the Dyspo's speed advantage was gone was not an impressive feat at all. Gohan was proven to be weaker than 17 when his full-powered kamehameha did nothing against Toppo, while 17's blasts on the other hand did have an effect. Gohan is not SSB level.

Gohan should become a vaccum salesman because he knows all about sucking.

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:56 am

Asura wrote:People who complain about Super’s “power levels” are probably 99% of the time referring to power consistency, not exact mathematical numbers. Z never had any issues with this, even when power levels were not really a thing anymore in the Cell and Buu sagas.

Super’s consistency is all over the place. I challenged people to give me a tier list of all the major players of the Tournament of Power and how they rank. No one could do it, or at least no one even tried, because it can’t be done. I’m not referring to the tiers like “S” “A” “B” etc. but an actual complete list of everyone ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

Meanwhile you can very easily rank everyone in every single arc of Z as to who is more powerful than who.
The fact that you can't rank everyone in the ToP compared to Z is less an indictment of power scaling in general, and more a simple fact of there being so many characters. That's why tiers generally work better; I couldn't tell you how (for example) Evolved Vegeta compares to SSJ2 Kefla because they never fought, but it's easy enough to assume they're on a similar level based on how they compare to Goku (ie above SSB, below UI).

It was easier in Z because there was a constant upward linear progression. Everyone on Namek was basically a ladder for Vegeta and the others to climb leading up to Freeza. The rare times Z deviated from that formula, such as with the change from Super Buu to Kid Buu was enough to spark debate as well. In that case, people agreed the difference between them was that Super Buu was stronger, but Kid Buu was more dangerous for being unpredictable, plus he was fighting different people.

At the end of the day, it's not like understanding where everyone stacks up on the power scale is vital to the show being good. We still don't know exactly how 17 and Gohan compare, but at the end of the day, there were other factors involved besides power and 17's performance compared to Gohan speaks for itself.

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by sintzu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:13 am

JazzMazz wrote:I don't see necessarily how thats a particularly awful thing.
How is a clear lack of consistency not a bad thing ? Again, no one's asking for numbers, just basic "character A is here while character B is there".
PFM18 wrote:Dragon Ball has always prioritized a compelling story over powerlevel consistency.
DB may have had some inconsistencies here and there (what long work doesn't ?) but nothing to the degree we saw in Super. We didn't have Krillin being able to hold his own against a Ssj3 Goku like what he was able to do against Blue Goku. Let's assume you don't agree and think they were just as bad in the original, if so then why is it OK to make the same mistakes ?
Kataphrut wrote:The rare times Z deviated from that formula, such as with the change from Super Buu to Kid Buu was enough to spark debate as well.
The reason there's a debate about that is because of how close those 2 are. In Super you've got a Blue Goku who can hold his own temporarely against Jiren yet somehow so can Krillin. You've got Ssj2 and SsjG Goku putting up nearly the same fight against Kale and Caulifla while in the original there's a clear line between where each form stands from one another and who it can and can't fight. In the original you can clearly tell where everyone compares to one another, including the different forms everyone used while in Super it completely depends on who's writing the episode. One episode has Vegeta completely out of power while the next he's using his strongest form as if nothing happened. When someone in the original was out of power they were out of power, there wasn't any of this false tension Super has.
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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:22 am

Power levels mean nothing as they will change at any point just to give some character a flashy moment.

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by sintzu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:25 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:Power levels mean nothing as they will change at any point just to give some character a flashy moment.
They can give anyone a flashy moment without messing everything up. This lack of consistency is simply lazy writing due to the people involved not really thinking twice about their work. No one's asking for perfection as we can't all be Cell but there are some major mistakes that shouldn't slip through anyone let alone people doing this for a living.
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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:27 am

sintzu wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I don't see necessarily how thats a particularly awful thing.
How is a clear lack of consistency not a bad thing ? Again, no one's asking for numbers, just basic "character A is here while character B is there".
PFM18 wrote:Dragon Ball has always prioritized a compelling story over powerlevel consistency.
DB may have had some inconsistencies here and there (what long work doesn't ?) but nothing to the degree we saw in Super. We didn't have Krillin being able to hold his own against a Ssj3 Goku like what he was able to do against Blue Goku. Let's assume you don't agree and think they were just as bad in the original, if so then why is it OK to make the same mistakes ?
I again, mention later in the post that how Asura framed it didn't necessarily make it come off as problematic.

My point was, having the lines between which characters could beat who being slightly obscured, or not being able to exactly pin down how strong some characters are in relation to others, isn't necessarily a bad thing. Different fighters have different advantages and disadvantages in combat, something that has certainly become more prevalent, or at least more ultilized in Super.

Hit has his time-skip, Dyspo's really fast, Magetta and Botamo have broken durability, the androids have infinite stamina and other attacks, Toppo has his energy of destruction, Ribrianne has the power of love bullshit(which admittedly is pretty flimsy), Zamasu has his immortality as well as a deadly ki weapon, the Saiyans have limitbreaking capabilities that allow them to grow stronger threw fighting, the majority of the human characters utilize strategy and strange techniques to allow them combat physically more capable opponents(some of the time), Piccolo has his unique skills to give him an edge, the universe 3 robots could analyse attack patterns and fuse to grow stronger etc.

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Re: i'm not pissed about super's powerlevels

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:20 am

sintzu wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Power levels mean nothing as they will change at any point just to give some character a flashy moment.
They can give anyone a flashy moment without messing everything up. This lack of consistency is simply lazy writing due to the people involved not really thinking twice about their work. No one's asking for perfection as we can't all be Cell but there are some major mistakes that shouldn't slip through anyone let alone people doing this for a living.

You can give characters flashy moments but there will be less of them.

If Toriyama made a much more detailed outline then you would get much better consistency. He leaves it a bit open that Toei end up contradicting themselves because of the amount of people working on it.

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