Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Myzt0gun]

The Dragon Ball Super Movie is months away,
Just How Powerful do you think is the New Characters are and Villains

The Most recent villains were
Frieza = or < SSB Goku (not mastered SSB)
Frost < Base Goku
Hit = SSG Goku to SSBKK Goku
Zamasu (Kai) = or < SSJ2 Goku
Merged Zamasu < SSB Vegito (only lost cause of time limit and Immortality)
Bergamo (No Absorption) = Base Goku
Bergamo (Giant) = possibly SSJ3 Goku
Anizara > or = SSBKK Goku
Toppo = SSB or SSG Goku
Jiren = Goku (Mastered UI)

I'm Guessing that the Villain will atleast be stronger than SSBKK Goku
but its about their origin so is it possible that Goku will time travel?

I think Jiren will be stronger than any new villain due to Goku not being able to activate Ultra Instinct.

I have a hunch however that Goku will unlock a new form that is atleast as powerful as UI Omen
but Yeah it will take DBS 1 to 3 Arcs for them to introduce a new villain that is on par with Jiren

[HeroR]

The context is that Kuririn overpowered base Goku and forced him to go Super Saiyan. Goku wouldn't budge if he was millions of times stronger as you people claim.

That wasn't the context at all. The context was that Krillin used his battle skills and knowledge to outplay Goku. And Goku didn't budge when Piccolo used a charge up attack, so are you saying that Krillin is millions of time stronger than Piccolo?

[HeroR]

You are the one overrating infinite zamasu. All he has is immortality. The dude can barely face worn out goku and vegeta.

Goku, Vegeta and Trunks' Final Galick Kamehameha had 0 effect so I don't know how you could come to this conclusion.

Also we’re not underestimating Zamasu, you’re just underestimating Geran. It’s like you’re saying I’m underestimating Kid Boo, because Golden Freeza is vastly stronger than him.

We at least have somewhat of an "understanding" of what Jiren's power is like. We don't know that for Zamasu. For what its worth this guy might be able to absorb/assimilate or flat out destroy all life because of what he is. This guy had the ability of becoming the universe just because he was what he was and only needed to let go of his previous form to do so. No one has ever done such a thing before. Is it because he is a Kaioshin and thus is connected to the fabric of the universe? His entire being is not really comparable to Jiren. The only thing we have ever seen from another villain that was somewhat similiar was Super Yi Xing Long spreading his negative energy through the universe. Those are things that make no actual sense. The only thing I give Jiren that also makes no sense is his resilience against Hit's abilities but that does not really matter when it comes to fighting an entity that "just for the sake of it" can make everything one with him.

That does make sense if you remember that Goku out-speeded Hit back in the Champa Saga with Blue Kaioken x10 while he was frozen in time.

[SupremeKai25]

Also, Jiren cannot destroy Infinite Zamasu because Infinite Zamasu was immortal. Not even the Hakai could work on him. So Jiren's only way to beat Infinite Zamasu would be to somehow trap him in another dimension.

Yeah, yeah, good luck trapping the f*cking planet on another dimension. I can already imagine Jiren desperately casting the Mafuba on the sky.

[ZombieVito]

Also, Jiren cannot destroy Infinite Zamasu because Infinite Zamasu was immortal. Not even the Hakai could work on him. So Jiren's only way to beat Infinite Zamasu would be to somehow trap him in another dimension.

Yeah, yeah, good luck trapping the f*cking planet on another dimension. I can already imagine Jiren desperately casting the Mafuba on the sky.

Not a planet. He became the universe and was expanding to all other universes.

Also comparing Zamasus's attacks to a fly? Come on now, 17 could hurt Jiren and Zamasu is multiple times stronger than him.

[Nevaeh]

The Dragon Ball Super Movie is months away,
Just How Powerful do you think is the New Characters are and Villains

The Most recent villains were
Frieza = or < SSB Goku (not mastered SSB)
Frost < Base Goku
Hit = SSG Goku to SSBKK Goku
Zamasu (Kai) = or < SSJ2 Goku
Merged Zamasu < SSB Vegito (only lost cause of time limit and Immortality)
Bergamo (No Absorption) = Base Goku
Bergamo (Giant) = possibly SSJ3 Goku
Anizara > or = SSBKK Goku
Toppo = SSB or SSG Goku
Jiren = Goku (Mastered UI)

I'm Guessing that the Villain will atleast be stronger than SSBKK Goku
but its about their origin so is it possible that Goku will time travel?

Has to be at least Blue level. He'll probably have a transformation that puts him above Kaioken Blue

And yes. If the villain is indeed a saiyan he's guaranteed to have a transformation. Toei and Bandai will make sure of it

[Koitsukai]

Zamasu never became the universe, that is just not true, he was going to, but he was not by the time he was erased. Gowasu even claimed he wanted to became the universe not that he already was, and as seen when Zeno destroyed him, he wasn't the universe yet.
Why are the stars far away not merged with him if he already was the universe? how come was he depicted being just one planet and some space around him when they could at least make him cover the whole solar system?



And three depleted saiyans managed to block Zamasu's attack and save Bulma, Shin, Gowasu and the ship, I doubt Jiren would suffer if they didn't. Jiren was hurt by 17(no ki) while fighting 3 top warriors and was caught off guard.

[Cetra]

That does make sense if you remember that Goku out-speeded Hit back in the Champa Saga with Blue Kaioken x10 while he was frozen in time.

I don't think that is what happened. Either you are frozen in time or not. Which is the problem I had with Jiren. You are either frozen or you are not. Goku obviously was not. Something worked with the Time Cage against Jiren though. But it was never said anything like him having a resilience, just "yeah, well, he is beyond time". Yeah, well. Either it should not work or it should work. If you want an inbetween thing you need to phrase it like something along the line of "it does not work properly with the effect it should have" because as said for for the nth time, either you are or you are not frozen. And Goku obviously was not. The ability is not the same thing but it would both amount to them being immobilised.

Zamasu never became the universe, that is just not true, he was going to, but he was not by the time he was erased.

And three depleted saiyans managed to block Zamasu's attack and save Bulma, Shin, Gowasu and the ship, I doubt Jiren would suffer if they didn't. Jiren was hurt by 17(no ki) while fighting 3 top warriors and was caught off guard.

It does not matter if he was 1% or 100%. The point is, he just from being the thing that he was he was able to do that and he could do whatever he want. He can make matter a part of him. He does not need to destroy it if he does not want to but kills their being by making all a part of himself instead just as he can do that with the universe (and I am pretty sure you know Saiyajin, Jiren, etc. also consist of matter just as the rest of the universe). And he just has that power for no reason mentioned. How are they gonna counter that? Trying a Vegetto anti-absorption barrier for all eternity?

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu never became the universe, that is just not true, he was going to, but he was not by the time he was erased. Gowasu even claimed he wanted to became the universe not that he already was, and as seen when Zeno destroyed him, he wasn't the universe yet.
Why are the stars far away not merged with him if he already was the universe? how come was he depicted being just one planet and some space around him when they could at least make him cover the whole solar system?

Ok, cool, that still doesn't remove the fact that Infinite Zamasu merged with the very fabric of the Universe and became justice and order itself, which is a mastodontic achievement. And he was transcending time and space too.

Oh, and Gowasu stated in ep. 65 that Fused Zamasu had endless power because he was the fusion of the most powerful Goku Black and the immortal Future Zamasu, so when the two became one, their power didn't just merge, it expanded to no end. But, hey, surprise! It turns out that this guy Jiren is beyond anything they've ever seen before, even Zamasu, the guy who had endless power and was beyond the Gods' comprehension. Oh, I can't wait for the new Saiyan villain to be 'beyond anything they've ever seen before', including Jiren.

And three depleted saiyans managed to block Zamasu's attack and save Bulma, Shin, Gowasu and the ship

No, they didn't block that attack, they were overpowered and knocked unconcious.

[Cetra]

Oh, and Gowasu stated in ep. 65 that Fused Zamasu had endless power because he was the fusion of the most powerful Goku Black and the immortal Future Zamasu, so when the two became one, their power didn't just merge, it expanded to no end.

I have no doubts Univerzalmasu is better than Jiren but I would not take Dragon Ball statements like "oopfdpsklahflkej!!!!! thiz perzon got 1000000000 times stronger!!!!" seriously. The point of the script of both adapations was "the mortals cannot possibly defeat Zamasu".

[ZombieVito]

It doesn't really matter if he became the whole multiverse at that moment or not. With time that's exactly what is going to happen and Jiren can't do jack about it.

Jiren just can't beat him. Without infinite stamina he is going to die to Zamasu eventually.

[Bullza]

The Dragon Ball Super Movie is months away,
Just How Powerful do you think is the New Characters are and Villains

It depends if they give Goku a new form or not. I could see this new villain being too much for Super Saiyan Blue Goku to the point at the end he'll reawaken Ultra Instinct and then use that to beat him.

So Jiren level or less.

[Doctor.]

The context is that Kuririn overpowered base Goku and forced him to go Super Saiyan. Goku wouldn't budge if he was millions of times stronger as you people claim.

That wasn't the context at all. The context was that Krillin used his battle skills and knowledge to outplay Goku. And Goku didn't budge when Piccolo used a charge up attack, so are you saying that Krillin is millions of time stronger than Piccolo?

Here's what happened last time Kuririn tried to overpower someone. Now, even in Super's nonsensical world where characters can somewhat match massively stronger characters with skill and knowledge, the fact is that Kuririn threw a blast that Goku couldn't overpower through strength alone and was forced to go Super Saiyan in order to deflect it. Why not power-up in base, to this SS3 Gotenks+ level of strength he has, and deflect the blast? Logically, we have two alternatives here:

1) Kuririn is stronger than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Goku's level, or
2) Goku's base is weaker than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Kuririn's level;

Any other rationalization screams denial because you're blatantly ignoring what's being presented to you on-screen. Piccolo at least has the excuse that he was just trying to lure Goku in so that Gohan could get a clean hit off. Goku here has no excuse. You can say that he later went SSB in order to test Kuririn's resolve, but here he was forced to go Super Saiyan because he couldn't overpower Kuririn's blast; he'd lose the match otherwise. No amount of mental gymnastics will change what's on-screen.

[namekiansaiyan]

The context is that Kuririn overpowered base Goku and forced him to go Super Saiyan. Goku wouldn't budge if he was millions of times stronger as you people claim.

That wasn't the context at all. The context was that Krillin used his battle skills and knowledge to outplay Goku. And Goku didn't budge when Piccolo used a charge up attack, so are you saying that Krillin is millions of time stronger than Piccolo?

The Krillin stuff was to show what he could do and how battle skills can help him over come some power difference but against much more powerful opponents he will stuggle big time.

The Piccolo attack was just used so Gohan can get a clean attack in and Piccolo was sinply waiting and not really powering up if you compare the same attack to the one in episode 119 which seemed much quicker and had much more strain on his body and being quite powerful according to Whis.

Overall the Krillin bit was to show skill while Piccolo and Gohan stuff was used to show teamwork. Also people need to remember that these are not serious battles so there will probably be unusual power stuff.

[PFM18]

The context is that Kuririn overpowered base Goku and forced him to go Super Saiyan. Goku wouldn't budge if he was millions of times stronger as you people claim.

That wasn't the context at all. The context was that Krillin used his battle skills and knowledge to outplay Goku. And Goku didn't budge when Piccolo used a charge up attack, so are you saying that Krillin is millions of time stronger than Piccolo?

The Krillin stuff was to show what he could do and how battle skills can help him over come some power difference but against much more powerful opponents he will stuggle big time.

The Piccolo attack was just used so Gohan can get a clean attack in and Piccolo was sinply waiting and not really powering up if you compare the same attack to the one in episode 119 which seemed much quicker and had much more strain on his body and being quite powerful according to Whis.

Overall the Krillin bit was to show skill while Piccolo and Gohan stuff was used to show teamwork. Also people need to remember that these are not serious battles so there will probably be unusual power stuff.

Regardless of whether you consider these battles during the recruitment arc are not serious battles, at the end of the day Goku was still forced to go Super Saiyan against Krillin. It makes sense and I hate it but there isn't really a rational reason for it. Doctor explained it very well. Goku's demeanor was definitely one of being serious when he was forced to go SSJ in order to overpower Krillin's ki blast. Although Super probably made a good writing decision by introducing other factors than just strictly "is A>B?" But at the end of the day Krillin still overpowered Goku in base.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In unison with the idea I often prattle around here, there are other nuances for it.

For example, a solid blow cannot simply be tanked no matter one's power level unless one specifically intends to tank it; we see this a lot in the Tournament of Power, despite knowing the immense power difference between characters that fight one another, especially with Jiren. This particular train of thought is basically about momentum; momentum isn't stopped unless a sufficiently great defense is put up that can absorb that momentum, and even then momentum isn't halted in its entirety.

With the Krillin example, if Goku had taken those hits head on without preparing to take them in stride, he would've been pushed back and could've lost the fight against his best friend. Thus, he turned Super Saiyan so that he had enough power emitting from his body to blow back Krillin's blasts and prevent a ring-out; it helps that the energy of a Super Saiyan is much more intense and active than a Saiyan's base form.

[PFM18]

In unison with the idea I often prattle around here, there are other nuances for it.

For example, a solid blow cannot simply be tanked no matter one's power level unless one specifically intends to tank it; we see this a lot in the Tournament of Power, despite knowing the immense power difference between characters that fight one another, especially with Jiren. This particular train of thought is basically about momentum; momentum isn't stopped unless a sufficiently great defense is put up that can absorb that momentum, and even then momentum isn't halted in its entirety.

With the Krillin example, if Goku had taken those hits head on without preparing to take them in stride, he would've been pushed back and could've lost the fight against his best friend. Thus, he turned Super Saiyan so that he had enough power emitting from his body to blow back Krillin's blasts and prevent a ring-out; it helps that the energy of a Super Saiyan is much more intense and active than a Saiyan's base form.

This actually makes a lot of sense. Super has been more adamant about being strategic and pushing the idea that if you are caught off guard or surprised then you take damage even if your opponent is far weaker than you

[HeroR]

The context is that Kuririn overpowered base Goku and forced him to go Super Saiyan. Goku wouldn't budge if he was millions of times stronger as you people claim.

That wasn't the context at all. The context was that Krillin used his battle skills and knowledge to outplay Goku. And Goku didn't budge when Piccolo used a charge up attack, so are you saying that Krillin is millions of time stronger than Piccolo?

Here's what happened last time Kuririn tried to overpower someone. Now, even in Super's nonsensical world where characters can somewhat match massively stronger characters with skill and knowledge, the fact is that Kuririn threw a blast that Goku couldn't overpower through strength alone and was forced to go Super Saiyan in order to deflect it. Why not power-up in base, to this SS3 Gotenks+ level of strength he has, and deflect the blast? Logically, we have two alternatives here:

1) Kuririn is stronger than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Goku's level, or
2) Goku's base is weaker than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Kuririn's level;

Any other rationalization screams denial because you're blatantly ignoring what's being presented to you on-screen. Piccolo at least has the excuse that he was just trying to lure Goku in so that Gohan could get a clean hit off. Goku here has no excuse. You can say that he later went SSB in order to test Kuririn's resolve, but here he was forced to go Super Saiyan because he couldn't overpower Kuririn's blast; he'd lose the match otherwise. No amount of mental gymnastics will change what's on-screen.

And why would Piccolo hold back so much that Goku wouldn’t even move? What was the point of even charging up? He could have just attack Goku and choked him like he did against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

So it’s amusing that’s you’re accusing me of mental gymnastics.

[namekiansaiyan]

That wasn't the context at all. The context was that Krillin used his battle skills and knowledge to outplay Goku. And Goku didn't budge when Piccolo used a charge up attack, so are you saying that Krillin is millions of time stronger than Piccolo?

Here's what happened last time Kuririn tried to overpower someone. Now, even in Super's nonsensical world where characters can somewhat match massively stronger characters with skill and knowledge, the fact is that Kuririn threw a blast that Goku couldn't overpower through strength alone and was forced to go Super Saiyan in order to deflect it. Why not power-up in base, to this SS3 Gotenks+ level of strength he has, and deflect the blast? Logically, we have two alternatives here:

1) Kuririn is stronger than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Goku's level, or
2) Goku's base is weaker than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Kuririn's level;

Any other rationalization screams denial because you're blatantly ignoring what's being presented to you on-screen. Piccolo at least has the excuse that he was just trying to lure Goku in so that Gohan could get a clean hit off. Goku here has no excuse. You can say that he later went SSB in order to test Kuririn's resolve, but here he was forced to go Super Saiyan because he couldn't overpower Kuririn's blast; he'd lose the match otherwise. No amount of mental gymnastics will change what's on-screen.

And why would Piccolo hold back so much that Goku wouldn’t even move? What was the point of even charging up? He could have just attack Goku and choked him like he did against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

So it’s amusing that’s you’re accusing me of mental gymnastics.

Who says Piccolo couldn't have done something else apart from that attack?

He obviously could have.

That wasn't the context at all. The context was that Krillin used his battle skills and knowledge to outplay Goku. And Goku didn't budge when Piccolo used a charge up attack, so are you saying that Krillin is millions of time stronger than Piccolo?

The Krillin stuff was to show what he could do and how battle skills can help him over come some power difference but against much more powerful opponents he will stuggle big time.

The Piccolo attack was just used so Gohan can get a clean attack in and Piccolo was sinply waiting and not really powering up if you compare the same attack to the one in episode 119 which seemed much quicker and had much more strain on his body and being quite powerful according to Whis.

Overall the Krillin bit was to show skill while Piccolo and Gohan stuff was used to show teamwork. Also people need to remember that these are not serious battles so there will probably be unusual power stuff.

Regardless of whether you consider these battles during the recruitment arc are not serious battles, at the end of the day Goku was still forced to go Super Saiyan against Krillin. It makes sense and I hate it but there isn't really a rational reason for it. Doctor explained it very well. Goku's demeanor was definitely one of being serious when he was forced to go SSJ in order to overpower Krillin's ki blast. Although Super probably made a good writing decision by introducing other factors than just strictly "is A>B?" But at the end of the day Krillin still overpowered Goku in base.

So do you actually believe that Krillin is stronger than base Goku or was it simply a flashy moment?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Here's what happened last time Kuririn tried to overpower someone. Now, even in Super's nonsensical world where characters can somewhat match massively stronger characters with skill and knowledge, the fact is that Kuririn threw a blast that Goku couldn't overpower through strength alone and was forced to go Super Saiyan in order to deflect it. Why not power-up in base, to this SS3 Gotenks+ level of strength he has, and deflect the blast? Logically, we have two alternatives here:

1) Kuririn is stronger than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Goku's level, or
2) Goku's base is weaker than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Kuririn's level;

Any other rationalization screams denial because you're blatantly ignoring what's being presented to you on-screen. Piccolo at least has the excuse that he was just trying to lure Goku in so that Gohan could get a clean hit off. Goku here has no excuse. You can say that he later went SSB in order to test Kuririn's resolve, but here he was forced to go Super Saiyan because he couldn't overpower Kuririn's blast; he'd lose the match otherwise. No amount of mental gymnastics will change what's on-screen.

And why would Piccolo hold back so much that Goku wouldn’t even move? What was the point of even charging up? He could have just attack Goku and choked him like he did against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

So it’s amusing that’s you’re accusing me of mental gymnastics.

Who says Piccolo couldn't have done something else apart from that attack?

He obviously could have.

The Krillin stuff was to show what he could do and how battle skills can help him over come some power difference but against much more powerful opponents he will stuggle big time.

The Piccolo attack was just used so Gohan can get a clean attack in and Piccolo was sinply waiting and not really powering up if you compare the same attack to the one in episode 119 which seemed much quicker and had much more strain on his body and being quite powerful according to Whis.

Overall the Krillin bit was to show skill while Piccolo and Gohan stuff was used to show teamwork. Also people need to remember that these are not serious battles so there will probably be unusual power stuff.

Regardless of whether you consider these battles during the recruitment arc are not serious battles, at the end of the day Goku was still forced to go Super Saiyan against Krillin. It makes sense and I hate it but there isn't really a rational reason for it. Doctor explained it very well. Goku's demeanor was definitely one of being serious when he was forced to go SSJ in order to overpower Krillin's ki blast. Although Super probably made a good writing decision by introducing other factors than just strictly "is A>B?" But at the end of the day Krillin still overpowered Goku in base.

So do you actually believe that Krillin is stronger than base Goku or was it simply a flashy moment?

Is definitely something similar as ssj vegeta struggling with rebriane, to then later stomp her butterfly form in base. Goku and co simply like holding back a lot. Have no idea why, but thats just what it seems.