Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't see how GT and Super can be in the same continuity if Supreme Kai and Kibito are still fused in GT, nobody has access or even mentions god forms, Beerus, Whis, Hit, etc don't appear at all, nothing mentions the 12 universes, there aren't Super Dragon Balls in GT and no Black Star Dragon Balls in Super. There are way too many inconsistencies to consider GT and Super to be in the same continuity imo.

These issues can be solved. Shin and Kibito may have needed to merge again. Due to lack of training Vegeta doesn’t use god ki anymore. The Black Star Dragon Balls caused some kind of ki disorder in Goku, so he can’t use god ki. Beerus entered in a long slumber. The other universes could have been erased in a further tragedy. Super Dragon Balls destroyed. A little apparent continuity errors don’t automatically make a story split.

But is it within the intention of the franchise heads?

I don't think it is. Everything seems to point to this new age of DB overriding the old follow-up to DBZ.

That includes levels of power, I would think.

[Champa The Destroyer]

I don't see how GT and Super can be in the same continuity if Supreme Kai and Kibito are still fused in GT, nobody has access or even mentions god forms, Beerus, Whis, Hit, etc don't appear at all, nothing mentions the 12 universes, there aren't Super Dragon Balls in GT and no Black Star Dragon Balls in Super. There are way too many inconsistencies to consider GT and Super to be in the same continuity imo.

These issues can be solved. Shin and Kibito may have needed to merge again. Due to lack of training Vegeta doesn’t use god ki anymore. The Black Star Dragon Balls caused some kind of ki disorder in Goku, so he can’t use god ki. Beerus entered in a long slumber. The other universes could have been erased in a further tragedy. Super Dragon Balls destroyed. Some little apparent continuity errors don’t automatically make a story split.

While it could be easily explained, for now, we have to use head canon. If we were to do that, we could just as easily say that Goten and Trunks obtained Super Saiyan so easily because at some point in time, they went to Namek and had the Grand Elder unlock their potential. There's absolutely nothing in the series that points to it being the case, but its technically possible.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't see how GT and Super can be in the same continuity if Supreme Kai and Kibito are still fused in GT, nobody has access or even mentions god forms, Beerus, Whis, Hit, etc don't appear at all, nothing mentions the 12 universes, there aren't Super Dragon Balls in GT and no Black Star Dragon Balls in Super. There are way too many inconsistencies to consider GT and Super to be in the same continuity imo.

These issues can be solved. Shin and Kibito may have needed to merge again. Due to lack of training Vegeta doesn’t use god ki anymore. The Black Star Dragon Balls caused some kind of ki disorder in Goku, so he can’t use god ki. Beerus entered in a long slumber. The other universes could have been erased in a further tragedy. Super Dragon Balls destroyed. A little apparent continuity errors don’t automatically make a story split.

But is it within the intention of the franchise heads?

I don't think it is. Everything seems to point to this new age of DB overriding the old follow-up to DBZ.

That includes levels of power, I would think.

That’s more or less the question directed at Yamamuro in the interview I linked. When asked if Toriyama intended to disregard DBGT events, he said DBS and DBGT must a connection. Powerlevel inconsistencies are a minor detail, though.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

These issues can be solved. Shin and Kibito may have needed to merge again. Due to lack of training Vegeta doesn’t use god ki anymore. The Black Star Dragon Balls caused some kind of ki disorder in Goku, so he can’t use god ki. Beerus entered in a long slumber. The other universes could have been erased in a further tragedy. Super Dragon Balls destroyed. A little apparent continuity errors don’t automatically make a story split.

But is it within the intention of the franchise heads?

I don't think it is. Everything seems to point to this new age of DB overriding the old follow-up to DBZ.

That includes levels of power, I would think.

That’s more or less the question directed at Yamamuro in the interview I linked. When asked if Toriyama intended to disregard DBGT events, he said DBS and DBGT must a connection. Powerlevel inconsistencies are a minor detail, though.

But see, Yamamuro is just an anime artistic director, not the second coming of Toriyama.

The story has gone out of its way to never make anything fit in with GT in rather blatant if not outright stated ways.

[Champa The Destroyer]

These issues can be solved. Shin and Kibito may have needed to merge again. Due to lack of training Vegeta doesn’t use god ki anymore. The Black Star Dragon Balls caused some kind of ki disorder in Goku, so he can’t use god ki. Beerus entered in a long slumber. The other universes could have been erased in a further tragedy. Super Dragon Balls destroyed. A little apparent continuity errors don’t automatically make a story split.

But is it within the intention of the franchise heads?

I don't think it is. Everything seems to point to this new age of DB overriding the old follow-up to DBZ.

That includes levels of power, I would think.

That’s more or less the question directed at Yamamuro in the interview I linked. When asked if Toriyama intended to disregard DBGT events, he said DBS and DBGT must a connection. Powerlevel inconsistencies are a minor detail, though.

Does Yamamuro have any input on the story?

[Hugo Boss]

Yamamuro is just an anime artistic director, not the second coming of Toriyama.

The story has gone out of its way to never make anything fit in with GT in rather blatant if not outright stated ways.

Does Yamamuro have any input on the story?

As the director of Ressurection F, he had some involvement with handling the story too. But I can’t say he is the most reliable person to talk about the status of Dragon Ball GT in continuity, since he is mostly involved with animation. Either way, I will still take his word over some fan theories.

[Helios518]

These issues can be solved. Shin and Kibito may have needed to merge again. Due to lack of training Vegeta doesn’t use god ki anymore. The Black Star Dragon Balls caused some kind of ki disorder in Goku, so he can’t use god ki. Beerus entered in a long slumber. The other universes could have been erased in a further tragedy. Super Dragon Balls destroyed. A little apparent continuity errors don’t automatically make a story split.

But is it within the intention of the franchise heads?

I don't think it is. Everything seems to point to this new age of DB overriding the old follow-up to DBZ.

That includes levels of power, I would think.

That’s more or less the question directed at Yamamuro in the interview I linked. When asked if Toriyama intended to disregard DBGT events, he said DBS and DBGT must a connection. Powerlevel inconsistencies are a minor detail, though.

Of course, Yamamuro says they have a connection; outright saying GT isn't in the current continuity wouldn't be good for sales. Anyways, didn't you say that he only had story involvement in the RoF movie? If so, then he has no say about story decisions for Super.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Yamamuro is just an anime artistic director, not the second coming of Toriyama.

The story has gone out of its way to never make anything fit in with GT in rather blatant if not outright stated ways.

Does Yamamuro have any input on the story?

As the director of Ressurection F, he had some involvement with handling the story too. But I can’t say he is the most reliable person to talk about the status of Dragon Ball GT in continuity, since he is mostly involved with animation. Either way, I will still take his word over some fan theories.

Just in case, I want to specify that when I asked how much input he has, I wasn't being sarcastic, i was genuinely asking, so I apologize if it came off as sarcastic or rude.

I wouldnt say that GT being a side story or non canon is a fan theory, it's a widely accepted thing supported by many, many events in Super.

[Dagon]

You follow that "turn god ki on/off" i.e. the "two base" theory, don't you? That is an incorrect theory.

I’m not sure how you assumed that. Despite not seeing any substance on this “numbers” theory, I don’t believe in “two base” theory. The theory I currently subscribe is that Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT belong to the same continuity. This is backed up by a Tadayoshi Yamamuro’s interview at Barcelona in 2015.

Your wording made it seem as if you follow the two base theory from my interpretation, sorry about that. Regarding the interview, I don't speak Japanese or read spanish so I can't tell what they are saying.

[Hugo Boss]

Of course, Yamamuro says they have a connection; outright saying GT isn't in the current continuity wouldn't be good for sales. Anyways, didn't you say that he only had story involvement in the RoF movie? If so, then he has no say about story decisions for Super.

I can’t speak for sales, because I don’t know how they work. But since the main elements of the movie were presented in the animated series, I think it’s a matter of adapting what it needs to be adapted.

I wouldnt say that GT being a side story or non canon is a fan theory, it's a widely accepted thing supported by many, many events in Super.

I took that as a genuine question, no worries. If you think he isn’t the guy to speak of the canonical status of Dragon Ball GT, that’s another discussion. But up until now, there is no official word from Toriyama or Toei staff with direct influence on story about this matter. Therefore, GT being a side story is a fan theory supported by some apparent issues with continuity.

Regarding the interview, I don't speak Japanese or read spanish so I can't tell what they are saying.

I can speak Spanish, which is what the interpret says. The subtitles are in Portuguese and are mostly accurate. The point is “when we are talking about (animated) series, there has to be a connection between Dragon Ball (Super) and Dragon Ball GT”. To be more specific, Yamamuro doesn’t outright say Dragon Ball GT is a spin-off, just that it has some elements of spin-off, because it adds something to the original story. And he says Dragon Ball GT was Toei idea, not Toriyama’s.

[kn83]

Of course, Yamamuro says they have a connection; outright saying GT isn't in the current continuity wouldn't be good for sales. Anyways, didn't you say that he only had story involvement in the RoF movie? If so, then he has no say about story decisions for Super.

I can’t speak for sales, because I don’t know how they work. But since the main elements of the movie were presented in the animated series, I think it’s a matter of adapting what it needs to be adapted.

I wouldnt say that GT being a side story or non canon is a fan theory, it's a widely accepted thing supported by many, many events in Super.

I took that as a genuine question, no worries. If you think he isn’t the guy to speak of the canonical status of Dragon Ball GT, that’s another discussion. But up until now, there is no official word from Toriyama or Toei staff with direct influence on story about this matter. Therefore, GT being a side story is a fan theory supported by some apparent issues with continuity.

Regarding the interview, I don't speak Japanese or read spanish so I can't tell what they are saying.

I can speak Spanish, which is what the interpret says. The subtitles are in Portuguese and are mostly accurate. The point is “when we are talking about (animated) series, there has to be a connection between Dragon Ball (Super) and Dragon Ball GT”. To be more specific, Yamamuro doesn’t outright say Dragon Ball GT is a spin-off, just that it has some elements of spin-off, because it adds something to the original story. And he says Dragon Ball GT was Toei idea, not Toriyama’s.

I just watch that interview with Yamamuro translated, and he clearly says that GT is a spinoff. Plus, Yamamuro has no part is the writing nor direction of Super, is only contribution to the writing in the series was for the movie version of RoF. So even if he said GT was canon, I wouldn't take anything he has to say about canon seriously. I would only take the words of Toriyama himself, Toyotaro as other head writers to heart.

[kn83]

I don't see how GT and Super can be in the same continuity if Supreme Kai and Kibito are still fused in GT, nobody has access or even mentions god forms, Beerus, Whis, Hit, etc don't appear at all, nothing mentions the 12 universes, there aren't Super Dragon Balls in GT and no Black Star Dragon Balls in Super. There are way too many inconsistencies to consider GT and Super to be in the same continuity imo.

These issues can be solved. Shin and Kibito may have needed to merge again. Due to lack of training Vegeta doesn’t use god ki anymore. The Black Star Dragon Balls caused some kind of ki disorder in Goku, so he can’t use god ki. Beerus entered in a long slumber. The other universes could have been erased in a further tragedy. Super Dragon Balls destroyed. Some little apparent continuity errors don’t automatically make a story split.

Those are all bad ideas. There is no reason for Shin and Kibito to ever fuse again. Neither Vegeta nor Goku would ever stop training for any reason because that is extremely out-of-character. The Black Star Dragonballs were stated to have never been used before the start of GT, so the idea of someone wishing away god ki with them doesn't work.

Dragonball as a franchise has always been about constant upward growth and expansion. So the idea that Toriyama, Toei or Toyotaro would ever remove large chunks of the series' setting like the other universes and the Super Dragonballs, as well as nerf everyone's powerlevels (2 base theory is false) just to make GT (a show that isn't popular among the Japanese fandom, which Toei cares about the most) fit into canon is completely ridiculous. There are way too many contradictions between Super and GT for GT to ever be canon. Its better to just leave it as a spin-off or an alternative timeline.

[Hugo Boss]

I just watch that interview with Yamamuro translated, and he clearly says that GT is a spinoff. Plus, Yamamuro has no part is the writing nor direction of Super, is only contribution to the writing in the series was for the movie version of RoF. So even if he said GT was canon, I wouldn't take anything he has to say about canon seriously. I would only take the words of Toriyama himself, Toyotaro as other head writers to heart.

Read again. He said it had characteristics of a spin-off, not that it was a spin-off on its entirety. Anyway, it’s fair to assume he is not authority on the matter, but I think it’s not everyday that someone on the staff verbalizes their own input about these things.

Those are all bad ideas. There is no reason for Shin and Kibito to ever fuse again. Neither Vegeta nor Goku would ever stop training for any reason because that is extremely out-of-character. The Black Star Dragonballs were stated to have never been used before the start of GT, so the idea of someone wishing away god ki with them doesn't work.

Dragonball as a franchise has always been about constant upward growth and expansion. So the idea that Toriyama, Toei or Toyotaro would ever remove large chunks of the series' setting like the other universes and the Super Dragonballs, as well as nerf everyone's powerlevels (2 base theory is false) just to make GT (a show that isn't popular among the Japanese fandom, which Toei cares about the most) fit into canon is completely ridiculous. There are way too many contradictions between Super and GT for GT to ever be canon. Its better to just leave it as a spin-off or an alternative timeline.

I’m just saying these things could happen somewhere between Super and GT, not that they are good ideas. And I don’t think canon has anything to do with absence of large contradictions, it’s about the will of legal owners of the franchise. By the way, this canon debate is set in another thread.

[ahill1]

I think many characters from Super would blow GT's out of the damn water.

[Locutus]

Of course Super is stronger. In GT, we didn't get a character who can destroy what we've come to know as "Universe 7" until Omega Shenron. Universe 7 being a collection of realities aka living world afterlife and Supreme Kais realm.

In Super, ssjgod Goku and Beerus were going to destroy all that as a side effect from fighting each other. At best, Omega is ssjgod BOG arc Gokus power. Gogeta ssj4 is up there but unknown how strong he is. I would personally put him at the highest ssjblue from ROF.

[sunsetshimmer]

I think many characters from Super would blow GT's out of the damn water.

Nah.
Jiren could beat Omega Shenron, but hey, it's DBS. Android 17 and Frieza made Jiren struggle while SSB Kaioken Goku could't do a s**t to suppressed Jiren.
The same goes for Ultra Instinct.
This series lacks any logic so much that it's hard to compare with other series.
Both has zero chance against Gogeta SSJ4 tho.

Kefla wouldn't beat Omega imo (espeically with his regeneration ability), but she would beat Super 17 for sure (unless she was spamming ki of course).

I don't think Golden Frieza would beat Super 17. He is too dumb for that.

[Hugo Boss]

Overall, taking account that GT characters are somewhat softer in my opinion, I think the large bulk of Super’s roster has a confortable edge. Individually, I have GT best contenders (Gogeta and the evil Shen Long) somewhere in “Super Saiyan Blue to Ultra Instinct” bracket.

[Champa The Destroyer]

I think many characters from Super would blow GT's out of the damn water.

Nah.
Jiren could beat Omega Shenron, but hey, it's DBS. Android 17 and Frieza made Jiren struggle while SSB Kaioken Goku could't do a s**t to suppressed Jiren.
The same goes for Ultra Instinct.
This series lacks any logic so much that it's hard to compare with other series.
Both has zero chance against Gogeta SSJ4 tho.

Kefla wouldn't beat Omega imo (espeically with his regeneration ability), but she would beat Super 17 for sure (unless she was spamming ki of course).

I don't think Golden Frieza would beat Super 17. He is too dumb for that.

GT is just as inconsistent with power levels. Base Goku was able to kill Super 17 while Super Saiyan 4 couldn't do the job (yes, I know that Super 17's weakness was exploited, but it's still highly unlikely that Base Goku could do that).

There's also the fact that Gohan, Trunks, and Goten weren't one shotted by Omega Shenron.

In regard to Freeza and 17 fighting Jiren, they say multiple times throughout the episode that Jiren is exhausted, while Freeze spent multiple episodes recovering and 17 has unlimited stamina. Jiren had barely a fraction of his power left.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think many characters from Super would blow GT's out of the damn water.

Nah.
Jiren could beat Omega Shenron, but hey, it's DBS. Android 17 and Frieza made Jiren struggle while SSB Kaioken Goku could't do a s**t to suppressed Jiren.
The same goes for Ultra Instinct.
This series lacks any logic so much that it's hard to compare with other series.
Both has zero chance against Gogeta SSJ4 tho.

Kefla wouldn't beat Omega imo (espeically with his regeneration ability), but she would beat Super 17 for sure (unless she was spamming ki of course).

I don't think Golden Frieza would beat Super 17. He is too dumb for that.

GT is just as inconsistent with power levels. Base Goku was able to kill Super 17 while Super Saiyan 4 couldn't do the job (yes, I know that Super 17's weakness was exploited, but it's still highly unlikely that Base Goku could do that).

There's also the fact that Gohan, Trunks, and Goten weren't one shotted by Omega Shenron.

In regard to Freeza and 17 fighting Jiren, they say multiple times throughout the episode that Jiren is exhausted, while Freeze spent multiple episodes recovering and 17 has unlimited stamina. Jiren had barely a fraction of his power left.

Not to mention that Jiren's faith in his strength had been shattered, which impeded his thinking and brought down what power he could bring out.

[sunsetshimmer]

GT is just as inconsistent with power levels. Base Goku was able to kill Super 17 while Super Saiyan 4 couldn't do the job (yes, I know that Super 17's weakness was exploited, but it's still highly unlikely that Base Goku could do that).

There's also the fact that Gohan, Trunks, and Goten weren't one shotted by Omega Shenron.

In regard to Freeza and 17 fighting Jiren, they say multiple times throughout the episode that Jiren is exhausted, while Freeze spent multiple episodes recovering and 17 has unlimited stamina. Jiren had barely a fraction of his power left.

GT is mostly consistent tho.
Yeah, Super 17 kill was kind of bullshit, it would make more sense if he was SSJ4 but they probably wanted to make a cool reference to King Piccolo saga.
Also, dragon fist is overpowered bullshit alone.

Omega was just dumbass and never really tried to kill them. He is the kind of guy that heavily underestimate everyone until it's too late, but even then, after witnessing Gogeta's power, he was toying with them a bit.

You might be right with Jiren but still, the gap between him and 17 should be much bigger imo.