Exline wrote:Why would you prefer to have two characters that are the same except physically to have different personalities..? The manga makes them look like a fearsome duo because of how well-coordinated they act together.
Because they contrast each other very well either way, Future Zamasu and Black interactions were good. We can have the excuse that Black is different because of Goku's Saiyan traits, explaining why he rejected the idea of becoming immortal too e.g
In the anime they look like a generic duo with Zamasu being the mastermind and Black the guy who relies on brute force.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
LightBing wrote:I find Black's portrayal in the manga excellent. He's the same as Zamasu, an arrogant God with an inferiority complex who loses it when things aren't going his way. It perfectly resonates with the zero mortal plan, something straight out of an childish hateful being mind.
I love Goku taunting Zamasu and him holding on to that shallow mind game to the point he need to establish himself.
It isn't cool or hype but the excellent writing elevates the arc has a whole in my opinion.
Hit not so much. The final fight at the U6 tournament isn't great and that hurts the little antenna time the character had. Hoping for some redemption in the current arc.
The personality would be fine if it wasn't played straight. That's the problem. They all take Zamasu seriously. In the anime, they all treat him as a joke, even Black at some points, who is nothing like Zamasu and is even more of a caricature.
That's one of my major gripes with the anime version, though. They treat Zamasu as this meta-joke that totally clashes with the tone of everything else they're trying to establish. What's even worse is that he's a joke part of the time, but we're supposed to take him super-duper seriously the rest of the time. They're trying to keep it light because they know that's how Toriyama does things, but they're doing it in the wrong places.
LightBing wrote:I find Black's portrayal in the manga excellent. He's the same as Zamasu, an arrogant God with an inferiority complex who loses it when things aren't going his way. It perfectly resonates with the zero mortal plan, something straight out of an childish hateful being mind.
I love Goku taunting Zamasu and him holding on to that shallow mind game to the point he need to establish himself.
It isn't cool or hype but the excellent writing elevates the arc has a whole in my opinion.
Hit not so much. The final fight at the U6 tournament isn't great and that hurts the little antenna time the character had. Hoping for some redemption in the current arc.
The personality would be fine if it wasn't played straight. That's the problem. They all take Zamasu seriously. In the anime, they all treat him as a joke, even Black at some points, who is nothing like Zamasu and is even more of a caricature.
Did they? They talk down to Zamasu the entire time in the manga. Vegeta mocks his plan and insults him, Goku pretty much calls him worthless, Vegito laughs at him, he's never taken seriously outside of when he's overpowering them, like the anime
Exline wrote:The manga makes them look like a fearsome duo because of how well-coordinated they act together.
Except they're not, really. They bicker and got close to turning against each-other when they were being beaten. This is something I feel could work under the context of the anime continuity, where the two have different personalities. But here? Here it makes no sense considering they're the same person. It makes them look incompetent.
LightBing wrote:I find Black's portrayal in the manga excellent. He's the same as Zamasu, an arrogant God with an inferiority complex who loses it when things aren't going his way. It perfectly resonates with the zero mortal plan, something straight out of an childish hateful being mind.
I love Goku taunting Zamasu and him holding on to that shallow mind game to the point he need to establish himself.
It isn't cool or hype but the excellent writing elevates the arc has a whole in my opinion.
Hit not so much. The final fight at the U6 tournament isn't great and that hurts the little antenna time the character had. Hoping for some redemption in the current arc.
The personality would be fine if it wasn't played straight. That's the problem. They all take Zamasu seriously. In the anime, they all treat him as a joke, even Black at some points, who is nothing like Zamasu and is even more of a caricature.
Did they? They talk down to Zamasu the entire time in the manga. Vegeta mocks his plan and insults him, Goku pretty much calls him worthless, Vegito laughs at him, he's never taken seriously outside of when he's overpowering them, like the anime
They definitely look down on Zamasu, yes, that's not up for debate. But they mock him in the same way they'd mock another villain they were beating. The anime is more self-aware about how ridiculous and kitsch Zamasu's entire motivation and plan is. Now whether that self-awareness is intentional or I'm just projecting it, I have no idea, given how some plot points were played straight to the point of stupidity in the anime's ToP.
Exline wrote:The manga makes them look like a fearsome duo because of how well-coordinated they act together.
Except they're not, really. They bicker and got close to turning against each-other when they were being beaten. This is something I feel could work under the context of the anime continuity, where the two have different personalities. But here? Here it makes no sense considering they're the same person. It makes them look incompetent.
I think the point of their bickering is that they are the same person. Zamas accuses black of tricking him into following his plan, but they are really the same person. Zamas' only ally is an alternate version of him, so when things go wrong, instead of blaming himself, he blames... himself. This shows the collapse of the Zamas' morale, and it segues into the fusion between the two characters.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Doctor. wrote:
Disagreed. It takes away from what made him unique in comparison to other Dragon Ball villains - the fact that he retained his composure. Which is a trait you wouldn't normally associate with Zamasu, but I feel like it fits, given the anime's theme of Black's personality being different due to his Saiyan body (something that's actually even more realistic than the manga approach, considering our biology largely affects our behavior).
I still think that's largely down to individual differences in how each medium chooses to highlight the various "degrees" of Black's personality traits (depending on the writer's priorities) rather than giving him different characteristics altogether. For example, we do begin to see the cracks in his composure following Goku and Vegeta's return to Trunks' era after their training in the anime. Likewise, in the manga, Black is portrayed as the (slightly) calmer of the two in his dispute with Zamasu prior to their fusion.
My point was more to illustrate that there was a clear purpose for those vulnerabilities. The basic structure of the arc demonstrates that it was never meant to be a showcase of overwhelming domination from the antagonist, but a constant struggle between both sides as well as an opportunity to exhibit the growth of the characters as the story progresses. In that regard, I think the manga succeeds at what the initial outline sets out to accomplish.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I think you hit the nail on the head as to why I just don't care for the anime interpretations of either Jiren or Zamasu.
I think Toyotaro goes to lengths to humanize those villains. Not necessarily making them "likable," but bringing them down to "our level" making them more complex as opposed to them just standing their, arms crossed being smug assholes.
That's especially true for Zamasu, who I absolutely hated in the anime. Not in a "this villain is despicable, I hope Goku punches him in the face" but in a "this villain is the worst. why won't this arc end already?" What I like about manga Zamasu is how desperate he seems and how increasingly obvious that is as the fight wears on. Zamasu has a tendency to freak the fuck out when things are not going his way, and he clearly starts losing control as he succumbs to his own anger. He literally goes from smugly proclaiming how superior he is, to outright beating the ever loving shit out of Vegeta and Goku. I don't think Zamasu is a great villain in either version, but he's far more fun (and savage) in his manga form.
In the anime he's just boring.
Also, that fight is so reminiscent of the fights in DBZ. Less spectacle, more people getting fucked up.
How is the boldednot the case in the anime? From literally injuring himself to get more powerful after goku hurt him, to him clearly getting desperate and more manic as his battle with vegetto continued, to flat out acting like a psychopathic maniac when trunks intervened and saved goku and vegeta. MZ in the anime clearly went from
Let me put it to you this way: In the anime, Zamasu calmly mentions to Black how they should use the potara earings against Goku and Vegeta. In the manga, he's freaking out before Black has to verbally slap the shit out of him to calm down...because they still can use "that technique." That's the difference. manga Zamasu is fragile in a way that anime Zamasu isn't. in the anime, it just seems like he's doing a bad Freeza impersonation. Every sentence out of his mouth is how he's superior to humans and how they'll receive his absolute justice.
So... manga leaks will start coming out in about a day or two. Anyone want to guess what the chapter is about? My Bet is it will probably focus on universe 6 female saiyans and kales berserk form, as that is the next important thing that happened in the anime.
I'm starting to think that the black arc is structurally the same as the cell arc.
Black arc: Black narrowly escapes being defeated by the heroes -> Black transforms and backs the protagonists into a corner -> Trunks stalls Black while Vegeta and Goku train -> Vegeta's new technique defeats Black and causes him to become desperate -> Vegeta gets overconfident and allows Black power up -> Goku defeats Zamas with a better version of the technique Vegeta used
Cell arc: Cell narrowly escapes being defeated by the heroes -> Cell transforms and backs the protagonists into a corner -> Tien stalls Cell while the saiyans train -> Vegeta's new technique defeats Cell and he begins to bargain with Vegeta -> Vegeta gets overconfident and allows Cell to power up -> Gohan defeats Cell with a better version of the technique Vegeta used
After this point the stories diverge, and it isn't exactly 1:1, but it's similar.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:So... manga leaks will start coming out in about a day or two. Anyone want to guess what the chapter is about? My Bet is it will probably focus on universe 6 female saiyans and kales berserk form, as that is the next important thing that happened in the anime.
If I'm not mistaking universe 10 was the 2nd to go in the anime so maybe the same will happen here.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Well, this isn’t my interpretation of zamasu , he took gokus body because he was insecure and jealous about strength to impose gods wishes .
Anime zamasus were so confident all the time , manga zamasus still showed up those insecurities at some points , like just before they merge . That’s one of my key points to prefer the manga version , you can change your body easy , but change your mind it’s harder , and he’s stubborn.
So zamasus personalities were more appropriate in the manga , but I also enjoy the anime version , sometimes more intimidating.
Like Toriyama said in that interview, http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... alk-vol-2/ Toyo depicted so well zamasus feelings
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....
Kenneth La Torre wrote:So... manga leaks will start coming out in about a day or two. Anyone want to guess what the chapter is about? My Bet is it will probably focus on universe 6 female saiyans and kales berserk form, as that is the next important thing that happened in the anime.
That’s my bet too , next chapter u6 will be focus , mixed with things here and there ( the more the better ) , to make it feel a battle royal
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....
Kenneth La Torre wrote:So... manga leaks will start coming out in about a day or two. Anyone want to guess what the chapter is about? My Bet is it will probably focus on universe 6 female saiyans and kales berserk form, as that is the next important thing that happened in the anime.
That’s my bet too , next chapter u6 will be focus , mixed with things here and there ( the more the better ) , to make it feel a battle royal
For some reason I don't think that he will focus again on U6 this month, because we already had a big focus on Frost last chapter.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:So... manga leaks will start coming out in about a day or two. Anyone want to guess what the chapter is about? My Bet is it will probably focus on universe 6 female saiyans and kales berserk form, as that is the next important thing that happened in the anime.
If I'm not mistaking universe 10 was the 2nd to go in the anime so maybe the same will happen here.
Probably, but kale did rage before U10 was erased. Maybe they will switch the order of events.
I'm 80% sure when UI happens, Toyotarou is going to be super faithful to Toriyama's original concept art. I think we can reasonably expect a skinny SSG pallet swap. I also think UI will be 3-4 chapters from now.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
TKA wrote:Hate to break it to you, but Zamas and Black are the same people.
And? That doesn't mean I can't notice how different they are from each other in the anime.
You missed the point.
The point is they should be the same person. In the manga, Zamas and Black are the same, as they should be. If Black isn't like Zamas, then why reveal that Zamas is in Goku's body? It makes no sense to have that detail if he's going to behave differently than Zamas would. At that point, the fact that Goku Black has Zamas' mind becomes an irrelevant detail, and not including irrelevant details is writing 101.
The gr wrote:I'm definitely going for Kale for this month and maybe Roshi taking out some U10 guys.
Yeah its not like we can't have both. Toyotarou wouldn't/shouldn't waste a whole chapter dedicated to Roshi, unless thats what Toriyama wants. Both Kale and Caulifla could contribute to U10's quick erasure.
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
prince212 wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:So... manga leaks will start coming out in about a day or two. Anyone want to guess what the chapter is about? My Bet is it will probably focus on universe 6 female saiyans and kales berserk form, as that is the next important thing that happened in the anime.
That’s my bet too , next chapter u6 will be focus , mixed with things here and there ( the more the better ) , to make it feel a battle royal
For some reason I don't think that he will focus again on U6 this month, because we already had a big focus on Frost last chapter.
but as Vegeta_Sama has stated, I agree that it'd be too early for another U6 centric chapter. I'm hoping we get much more focus on U11's Toppo, Dyspo, and Jiren. Or maybe we can see Ribrianne vs 18. Another U6 Chapter would bug me cause then it'd become obvious that this is going to be another U7/U6 Eliminates everyone Royale like the anime did.
However, if it U6 Centric, I will gladly take a whole chapter of just U6 Saiyans. I love seeing them in action.
prince212 wrote:
That’s my bet too , next chapter u6 will be focus , mixed with things here and there ( the more the better ) , to make it feel a battle royal
For some reason I don't think that he will focus again on U6 this month, because we already had a big focus on Frost last chapter.
but as Vegeta_Sama has stated, I agree that it'd be too early for another U6 centric chapter. I'm hoping we get much more focus on U11's Toppo, Dyspo, and Jiren. Or maybe we can see Ribrianne vs 18. Another U6 Chapter would bug me cause then it'd become obvious that this is going to be another U7/U6 Eliminates everyone Royale like the anime did.
However, if it U6 Centric, I will gladly take a whole chapter of just U6 Saiyans. I love seeing them in action.
I don’t consider chapter 34 to be U6 centric , freeza played with frost , was more a freeza focus I.m.o. , that’s why I don’t consider repetitive if in chapter 35 they show u6 saiyans , but I get the point , pretty soon we’ll have some clues
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....
