Kaioken Blue vs Mastered Super Saiyan Blue. Which is Better?

[ToshioWrites]

Mastered Blue is far more efficient on long-term, but Blue Kaiohken gives Goku a greater power-up earlier.

Story-wise, I believe the main issue has been the anime going straight to Kaiohken x10. They should have used only x1, using x10 against Fused Zamasu's power ball.
If they felt just doubling Goku's power wasn't enough, they could have easily played the "Blue is all about Ki Control" and saying Blue Kaiohken gave a greater power-up than normal Kaiohken.


It's intersting how Mastered Blue is the reverse of Ultra Instinct: Mastered Blue is all about keeping one's ki in himself, Ultra Instinct is all about expand one's Cosmo beyond the Sixth Sen... wait, wrong series.

(then there is the fact I do believe Manga Zamasu being much weaker than both Halo Zamasu and Grotesque Zamasu, but that's for another topic)

Manga M Zamasu is much weaker but that’s how Toriyama wanted him to be. In his draft for the arc m zamasu was supposed to be about as strong as ssb Goku and Vegeta. Vegito wasn’t needed but Toyo got him added to the draft for “fan service”

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Something else I like about Kaioken/Blue over Complete SSB is the fact that it truly expands the SSB form, rather than try to say that the form itself has problems to be addressed; in-universe, that is.

SSB was combined with Kaio-ken not because the form itself had any serious problems, but specifically because it didn't and indeed actually had advantages over other Super Saiyan forms. Toei didn't give SSB weaknesses after its introduction (at least not initially), and I liked how they did that rather than Toyotaro's approach. The fact that some of his ideas seem to have carried over with regards to the immense stamina issue still miffs me to this day.

[mahakaishin1991]

kaioken blue wouldnt have been so bad if it meant he couldnt use the multiplier on top of blue, so he was never able to frigging x20 it.


Real question though: Mastered or Shinka?

[Exline]

kaioken blue wouldnt have been so bad if it meant he couldnt use the multiplier on top of blue, so he was never able to frigging x20 it.


Real question though: Mastered or Shinka?

What is Shinka?

Edit: Nvm googled it.

SSB Evolution is a good idea in theory. Vegeta getting his own transformation instead of following behind Goku's footsteps is great development for him. However, the way it was executed was terrible. It came absolutely out of nowhere. No hints, no allusions toward it happening (although the manga hints towards it). And it felt as if it was it was only need to correct the mistake that was Kaioken Blue.

It also amounted to nothing since it wasn't even enough to defeat the guy who triggered it in the first place.

[ToshioWrites]

kaioken blue wouldnt have been so bad if it meant he couldnt use the multiplier on top of blue, so he was never able to frigging x20 it.


Real question though: Mastered or Shinka?

What is Shinka?

SSB Evolution

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Visually, I prefer SSB Kaioken, since I really like tyr blue-red contrast, but story-wise I think it kind of breaks powerscaling since it amplifies his power too much. Mastered Blue makes more sense, I like the explenation that the Blue aura is power leaking out of the body, and that keeping it in, makes the user able to use SSB to the maximum extent of its power.

I agree, Kaioken Blue looks great but it messes an already imbalanced power scale. I stated in another thread that it's no longer as great as it was the first time we saw it due to it being spammed throughout super. I hope that, SSB Evolution, and Ultra Instinct do not return in the movie. I'd rather have Ultra Instinct stay as a dormant power we don't see for a while to build it's hype back up again.

I have no problem with Mastered SSB. It's a great way of making regular Super Saiyan Blue even better and stronger by trying to keep in all the leaked energy. It doesn't really make sense like OP said that a MASTERED form takes a toll on the body, but it's interesting to see how risky of a technique it is. We haven't dealt with that tension since SSJ 3 in the Buu Arc. They failed at making Kaioken Blue look like that.

When Goku first used it against Hit I thought that created a bunch of tension. The fact that he continuously had the aura surrounding him even when he wasn't fighting, something Goku never did before with Kaioken, and went straight up to x10 instead of gradually working his way up. Also when they showed Goku having muscle tremors towards the end of the fight, I kept thinking to myself there "man, Goku is going to be ruined when this fight is over!"

When SSJ3 Goku fought Buu, all we had were a few inner-dialogue moments indicating he shouldn't waste much time. Other than that they didn't really visualize to us how severe a toll SSJ3 has on Goku, compared to the Goku vs. Hit fight, where it actually looked Kaioken was straight up just going to kill him the moment he deactivated.

Full-Powered Super Saiyan 1 made no sense to me as to why there is no stamina drain when activating. The names should be reversed imo haha.
Mastered Super Saiyan and Full-Power Super Saiyan Blue.

FPSSJ in my opinion is an unofficial fan term. It's supposed to be Mastered SSJ. Technically all Goku and Gohan did was suppress their power levels low enough that they can keep SSJ active and not have any strain, then both went up to the max 50x power when they were seriously fighting. There is no indication that they accessed a power greater than the original SSJ form allowed, nor was that specifically discussed before the Cell Games. Anything above 50x without going SSJ2, would just give them more muscle mass and they lose speed.

[mahakaishin1991]

kaioken blue wouldnt have been so bad if it meant he couldnt use the multiplier on top of blue, so he was never able to frigging x20 it.


Real question though: Mastered or Shinka?

What is Shinka?

Edit: Nvm googled it.

SSB Evolution is a good idea in theory. Vegeta getting his own transformation instead of following behind Goku's footsteps is great development for him. However, the way it was executed was terrible. It came absolutely out of nowhere. No hints, no allusions toward it happening (although the manga hints towards it). And it felt as if it was it was only need to correct the mistake that was Kaioken Blue.

It also amounted to nothing since it wasn't even enough to defeat the guy who triggered it in the first place.

How does any of that make sense

there were allusions to vegeta doing his own thing he outright says he will surpass jiren in his own way and that goku can keep his ultra instinct for himself, right before he uses his final flash.

And I guess then that God was useless cause it didnt beat beerus, blue kaioken was useless because it didnt beat hit, anger was useless cause it didnt beat zamasu, 3 was useless since it didnt beat buu and of course, goku didnt beat freeza so his super saiyan was useless as well.

And what I asked, getting back to my point, is if it is stronger than mastered or not

[Bergamo]

Visually, I prefer SSB Kaioken, since I really like tyr blue-red contrast, but story-wise I think it kind of breaks powerscaling since it amplifies his power too much. Mastered Blue makes more sense, I like the explenation that the Blue aura is power leaking out of the body, and that keeping it in, makes the user able to use SSB to the maximum extent of its power.

I agree, Kaioken Blue looks great but it messes an already imbalanced power scale. I stated in another thread that it's no longer as great as it was the first time we saw it due to it being spammed throughout super. I hope that, SSB Evolution, and Ultra Instinct do not return in the movie. I'd rather have Ultra Instinct stay as a dormant power we don't see for a while to build it's hype back up again.

I have no problem with Mastered SSB. It's a great way of making regular Super Saiyan Blue even better and stronger by trying to keep in all the leaked energy. It doesn't really make sense like OP said that a MASTERED form takes a toll on the body, but it's interesting to see how risky of a technique it is. We haven't dealt with that tension since SSJ 3 in the Buu Arc. They failed at making Kaioken Blue look like that.

When Goku first used it against Hit I thought that created a bunch of tension. The fact that he continuously had the aura surrounding him even when he wasn't fighting, something Goku never did before with Kaioken, and went straight up to x10 instead of gradually working his way up. Also when they showed Goku having muscle tremors towards the end of the fight, I kept thinking to myself there "man, Goku is going to be ruined when this fight is over!"

When SSJ3 Goku fought Buu, all we had were a few inner-dialogue moments indicating he shouldn't waste much time. Other than that they didn't really visualize to us how severe a toll SSJ3 has on Goku, compared to the Goku vs. Hit fight, where it actually looked Kaioken was straight up just going to kill him the moment he deactivated.

Full-Powered Super Saiyan 1 made no sense to me as to why there is no stamina drain when activating. The names should be reversed imo haha.
Mastered Super Saiyan and Full-Power Super Saiyan Blue.

FPSSJ in my opinion is an unofficial fan term. It's supposed to be Mastered SSJ. Technically all Goku and Gohan did was suppress their power levels low enough that they can keep SSJ active and not have any strain, then both went up to the max 50x power when they were seriously fighting. There is no indication that they accessed a power greater than the original SSJ form allowed, nor was that specifically discussed before the Cell Games. Anything above 50x without going SSJ2, would just give them more muscle mass and they lose speed.

An unnoficial fan term used in daizenshuu? It wouldn't make any sense to use the form if it only saved stamina when they weren't fighting and the form probably doesn't even have a multiplier. It probably works in the same way base form doesn't have a multiplier, and you can get stronger by increasing ki output while in base.

[Exline]

How does any of that make sense

there were allusions to vegeta doing his own thing he outright says he will surpass jiren in his own way and that goku can keep his ultra instinct for himself, right before he uses his final flash.

And I guess then that God was useless cause it didnt beat beerus, blue kaioken was useless because it didnt beat hit, anger was useless cause it didnt beat zamasu, 3 was useless since it didnt beat buu and of course, goku didnt beat freeza so his super saiyan was useless as well.

And what I asked, getting back to my point, is if it is stronger than mastered or not

The same final flash that happened in the episode before he transforms? That "allusion" happened way too late in the story.

I said it amounted to nothing, not neccesarily that it's useless. It barely does a good job of leaving an impression is what I'm trying to imply.

And lastly, if you meant which is stronger in your question, you didn;t make that clear or enough. You simply said "Mastered or Shinka?" making me assume you were asking which is better.

[Exline]

When Goku first used it against Hit I thought that created a bunch of tension. The fact that he continuously had the aura surrounding him even when he wasn't fighting, something Goku never did before with Kaioken, and went straight up to x10 instead of gradually working his way up. Also when they showed Goku having muscle tremors towards the end of the fight, I kept thinking to myself there "man, Goku is going to be ruined when this fight is over!"

When SSJ3 Goku fought Buu, all we had were a few inner-dialogue moments indicating he shouldn't waste much time. Other than that they didn't really visualize to us how severe a toll SSJ3 has on Goku, compared to the Goku vs. Hit fight, where it actually looked Kaioken was straight up just going to kill him the moment he deactivated.

I meant his constant abuse of Kaioken Blue is what made it seem less harmful to him. He seems to have mastered it easily when shown in the Zamasu arc and ToP.

Full-Powered Super Saiyan 1 made no sense to me as to why there is no stamina drain when activating. The names should be reversed imo haha.
Mastered Super Saiyan and Full-Power Super Saiyan Blue.

FPSSJ in my opinion is an unofficial fan term. It's supposed to be Mastered SSJ. Technically all Goku and Gohan did was suppress their power levels low enough that they can keep SSJ active and not have any strain, then both went up to the max 50x power when they were seriously fighting. There is no indication that they accessed a power greater than the original SSJ form allowed, nor was that specifically discussed before the Cell Games. Anything above 50x without going SSJ2, would just give them more muscle mass and they lose speed.

Is it really? I had no idea honestly. Is there an official list of names for these transformations?

Cause apparaently it's Completed Super Saiyan Blue (which I prefer) instead of Mastered.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Something else I like about Kaioken/Blue over Complete SSB is the fact that it truly expands the SSB form, rather than try to say that the form itself has problems to be addressed; in-universe, that is.

How does the Kaioken expand SSB? It has nothing to do with the use of Blue, it was a call-back made on something Goku already had. The problem with it I have is that it doesn't really make sense how the gap between the characters who are on par with blue (somehow) are by implication 20x stronger than SSB alone. If Goku used it just against merged Zamasu the gap filler would have been more clear.

SSB was combined with Kaio-ken not because the form itself had any serious problems, but specifically because it didn't and indeed actually had advantages over other Super Saiyan forms. Toei didn't give SSB weaknesses after its introduction (at least not initially), and I liked how they did that rather than Toyotaro's approach. The fact that some of his ideas seem to have carried over with regards to the immense stamina issue still miffs me to this day.

What weakness does SSB have other than stamina in the anime? SSB didn't need to have an arbitrary crippling imo, because that was just how they ended up making the form look wek and circular in development with the prior forms where their own ki weighed them down. The form was supposed to be their pinnacle. They didn't need it to have drawbacks. It just didn't need to be invincible.

[Marlowe89]

How does the Kaioken expand SSB? It has nothing to do with the use of Blue, it was a call-back made on something Goku already had.

Agreed with this part. Kaioken is compatible with Blue, but it doesn't really expand upon its mechanics and concepts like Complete Blue does. It's just a multiplier that happens to be accessible because the latter is somehow calmer than other transformations.

[ToshioWrites]

How did SSBE amount to nothing? Didn't Vegeta beat Toppo or was that an illusion or are forms only worthwhile or meaningful if they beat the dude that required perfection of UI to defeat?

By this logic UI omen didn't leave any lasting impressions
Potara Fusion left no lasting impressions

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

How does the Kaioken expand SSB? It has nothing to do with the use of Blue, it was a call-back made on something Goku already had.

Agreed with this part. Kaioken is compatible with Blue, but it doesn't really expand upon its mechanics and concepts like Complete Blue does. It's just a multiplier that happens to be accessible because the latter is somehow calmer than other transformations.

If just by that, you can say that SSBK can't be better than Mastered SSB because it isn't apart of the Blue form. If Toyotaro gave Goku Kaioken Blue after this point, what would the debate be then? I just considered Kaioken was a Toei exclusive choice, among many that just wanted to market references rather than logically built on anything (they did borrow the stamina thing from the manga, then abused the hell out of it as a plot device). MSSB just seems to be the real direction, considering Kaioken isn't apart of the training with Whis. It wouldn't be because Beerus can't use it so its technically irrelevant. It doesn't add anything onto blue. Where as like I said before, I see MSSB as their next stage towards fighting like Beerus (who uses next to no aura visible when fighting).

How did SSBE amount to nothing? Didn't Vegeta beat Toppo or was that an illusion or are forms only worthwhile or meaningful if they beat the dude that required perfection of UI to defeat?

SSBE was an on-the-spot transformation that didn't have any merit to it existing let alone what it was supposed to be or reflect from the prior form. It was just Vegeta crying and he gets a recolor with glitter. The process was identical to Trunks' 'rage' form. Toei sucks with power development.

[ToshioWrites]

How does the Kaioken expand SSB? It has nothing to do with the use of Blue, it was a call-back made on something Goku already had.

Agreed with this part. Kaioken is compatible with Blue, but it doesn't really expand upon its mechanics and concepts like Complete Blue does. It's just a multiplier that happens to be accessible because the latter is somehow calmer than other transformations.

If just by that, you can say that SSBK can't be better than Mastered SSB because it isn't apart of the Blue form. If Toyotaro gave Goku Kaioken Blue after this point, what would the debate be then? I just considered Kaioken was a Toei exclusive choice, among many that just wanted to market references rather than logically built on anything (they did borrow the stamina thing from the manga, then abused the hell out of it as a plot device). MSSB just seems to be the real direction, considering Kaioken isn't apart of the training with Whis. It wouldn't be because Beerus can't use it so its technically irrelevant. It doesn't add anything onto blue. Where as like I said before, I see MSSB as their next stage towards fighting like Beerus (who uses next to no aura visible when fighting).

How did SSBE amount to nothing? Didn't Vegeta beat Toppo or was that an illusion or are forms only worthwhile or meaningful if they beat the dude that required perfection of UI to defeat?

SSBE was an on-the-spot transformation that didn't have any merit to it existing let alone what it was supposed to be or reflect from the prior form. It was just Vegeta crying and he gets a recolor with glitter. The process was identical to Trunks' 'rage' form. Toei sucks with power development.

Yeah cause DBS is really good at "merit" based powerups.
Goku was out of shape before the ToP and got UI by accident
all the u6 saiyans/gohan/trunks/freeza power up cause "natural talent" "prodigy"

Not sure what show you guys are watching but the days of training intensively for years to get new forms or serious powerups have gone by the wayside especially in the last 2 arcs.

[Exline]

How did SSBE amount to nothing? Didn't Vegeta beat Toppo or was that an illusion or are forms only worthwhile or meaningful if they beat the dude that required perfection of UI to defeat?

SSBE was an on-the-spot transformation that didn't have any merit to it existing let alone what it was supposed to be or reflect from the prior form. It was just Vegeta crying and he gets a recolor with glitter. The process was identical to Trunks' 'rage' form. Toei sucks with power development.

Yeah cause DBS is really good at "merit" based powerups.
Goku was out of shape before the ToP and got UI by accident
all the u6 saiyans/gohan/trunks/freeza power up cause "natural talent" "prodigy"

Not sure what show you guys are watching but the days of training intensively for years to get new forms or serious powerups have gone by the wayside especially in the last 2 arcs.

No one said they needed to train for it.

The reason I say it amounts to nothing is due to it's lackluster portrayal against both Toppo and Jiren. Vegeta definitely did much better in his Blue form against Jiren than he did in his "Shinka" form. It's as if his power has reduced because he has to resort to fighting alongside Goku. It was poorly demonstrated throughout 123 - 126. He does literally nothing of interest to affect Jiren.

Him defeating Toppo did not leave a lasting impression because he literally does a fanservice callback homage, w.e you wanna call it, Final Atonement against GoD Toppo. It's the same move we've seen already and didn't need to see again, especially as the elimination of an opponent like Toppo. Also having him transition from Jiren to Toppo in 126 was poorly handled as well. The writing in that episode is all over the place and most certainly doesn't give Vegeta's new form justice. The only interesting aspect that came out of their fight is their battle of ideals.

[ToshioWrites]

SSBE was an on-the-spot transformation that didn't have any merit to it existing let alone what it was supposed to be or reflect from the prior form. It was just Vegeta crying and he gets a recolor with glitter. The process was identical to Trunks' 'rage' form. Toei sucks with power development.

Yeah cause DBS is really good at "merit" based powerups.
Goku was out of shape before the ToP and got UI by accident
all the u6 saiyans/gohan/trunks/freeza power up cause "natural talent" "prodigy"

Not sure what show you guys are watching but the days of training intensively for years to get new forms or serious powerups have gone by the wayside especially in the last 2 arcs.

No one said they needed to train for it.

The reason I say it amounts to nothing is due to it's lackluster portrayal against both Toppo and Jiren. Vegeta definitely did much better in his Blue form against Jiren than he did in his "Shinka" form. It's as if his power has reduced because he has to resort to fighting alongside Goku. It was poorly demonstrated throughout 123 - 126. He does literally nothing of interest to affect Jiren.

Him defeating Toppo did not leave a lasting impression because he literally does a fanservice callback homage, w.e you wanna call it, Final Atonement against GoD Toppo. It's the same move we've seen already and didn't need to see again, especially as the elimination of an opponent like Toppo. Also having him transition from Jiren to Toppo in 126 was poorly handled as well. The writing in that episode is all over the place and most certainly doesn't give Vegeta's new form justice. The only interesting aspect that came out of their fight is their battle of ideals.

Vegeta did better vs jiren in his normal ssb form because jiren was heavily suppressed in 122.

He powered up in 123 to a level Belmod hadn't seen in a long time
He then powered up again in 124
Then in 126, he was starting to get irritated with Goku and Vegeta and asked Toppo to take Vegeta
Then in 127 he powered up into his triple sun aura to take on an even stronger vegeta and goku and 17.

Its not all Vegeta but Jiren was forced to power up consistently which is why SSBE looked less impressive

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Not sure what show you guys are watching but the days of training intensively for years to get new forms or serious powerups have gone by the wayside especially in the last 2 arcs.

In the Super-era maybe post ROF where, the series takes a lot of shortcuts around the actual depth Z was built on. I don't believe the hack-jobs in super should set the standard of the series to define that legitimacy. Instead of holding this up as the issue with modern dragonball, I read ''thats just what it is now, accept it'' implying the criticism should be removed off the reception of this pattern. It was dumb when Freeza did it, it is dumb now. A subjective argument here: it honestly takes away the core build up of the fights, rather than Super trying to market the fights themselves as the entertainment.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I just can't agree with the arguments in favour of Complete SSB. There's just something....."off" about the whole idea to me.

It's probably just personal preference muddying the waters, but there's a real lack of spectacle and thematic purpose for the concept for me, at least in comparison to SSB/KK.

SSB/KK is a clear and easy way to quickly power Goku up for the purposes of the narrative at hand, and is something unique to him that only he can do. I'm not one much for power gaps, so Vegeta being left behind due to this doesn't bother me much; I've never been a fan of Vegeta literally being Goku's rival in power, only the characterization behind this rivalry.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I just can't agree with the arguments in favour of Complete SSB. There's just something....."off" about the whole idea to me.

It's probably just personal preference muddying the waters, but there's a real lack of spectacle and thematic purpose for the concept for me, at least in comparison to SSB/KK.

SSB/KK is a clear and easy way to quickly power Goku up for the purposes of the narrative at hand, and is something unique to him that only he can do. I'm not one much for power gaps, so Vegeta being left behind due to this doesn't bother me much; I've never been a fan of Vegeta literally being Goku's rival in power, only the characterization behind this rivalry.

Theatrical effect shouldn't be the basis to determine quality of concepts, thats the general issue I personally have with people that like the anime, because they generally base their preferences solely on that, even if that is initially all the anime has to offer. Not to mention Kaioken is what breaks their rivalry entirely. Goku & Vegeta being equals in power and only differing in skill or technique IS what a realistically balanced rivalry should be. Comparable characters, not one-sided superior/inferior parallels. It only makes Vegeta look like the useless version of Goku. Spectacle is brief, comparisons last forever within the depth of the sources.