"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

It still bums me out for the whole world to collectively crap on something I like

Just because the vocal minority of people who read the manga - including prominent community heads - harshly criticize it from time to time, that doesn't mean the whole world dislikes it. Regardless of harsh tweets and forum posts, the manga is still selling well around the world. I get the feeling that Toriyama is quite happy with Toyotaro's work, which bodes well for his continued involvement in the franchise. Perhaps we'll see the anime follow the events of his manga moving forward...?

At the start it's mentioned how 2-3 members of each Universe had been eliminated, with the exception of Universe 11. Did we actually saw all of those? My memory fails me.

No. There was a panel where fighters from different universes were getting eliminated in the distance, but they were too far away to discern and/or were made intentionally ambiguous as to not require specification.

[prince212]

I saw a couple of post joking about 5 minutes have past.
That was at the beginning of the chapter , meaning that chapter 33 1/2 to chapter 34 were 5 minutes .
So each chapter is around 3-4 minutes ... I was expecting double time past per chapter .. , just to have new arcs in Christmas, after the movie , but at this pace .. no way . I’m ok with that , as long as entertains me , and it does

[Bergamo]

I saw a couple of post joking about 5 minutes have past.
That was at the beginning of the chapter , meaning that chapter 33 1/2 to chapter 34 were 5 minutes .
So each chapter is around 3-4 minutes ... I was expecting double time past per chapter .. , just to have new arcs in Christmas, after the movie , but at this pace .. no way . I’m ok with that , as long as entertains me , and it does

I don't think there's a minutes per chapter rate, but instead, the story goes as fast as it needs to. I can almost guarantee you that time will progress faster near the middle of the tournament, and will slow down again at the end.

[CriticalThinker]

No prob! We're square.

You actually touched on a part of my specific situation. Out of all of my friends IRL, only one of them really likes Dragon Ball as much as I do and he doesn't really think much of Super as a whole - anime or manga. As such, he hasn't kept up with Super beyond watching a small handful of episodes and reading a couple chapters. Talking to him about modern Dragon Ball is more or less a one-sided conversation rather than a proper discussion. With that being the case, it's either talk at my buddy about material he hasn't seen, visit the forums for discussion or bottle up my thoughts on modern Dragon Ball. With online discussion regarding the manga being a crapshoot, it's kinda just me and my own thoughts most of the time. There's nowhere for my passion to go.

Kanzenshuu has been better about open discussion than most places, but it still frequently bogs down about certain topics. I do my best to keep conversation stimulating, but like @batistabus said, it feels like I spend more time arguing the merits of the manga than I do just chatting about it. It can be difficult to keep up the desire when just talking about the thing you like is an uphill battle by default.

Bleh. Regardless, this is turning into more of blog than a manga discussion thread. I'll stop straying off-topic and go gather my thoughts on the chapter for later discussion. I've derailed the topic enough.

Sorry for the the late reply, and damn man I can see why you got upset that's a pretty sucky situation to be in. Guess that's why I joined this site as I also wanted to discuss the series but didn't have anyone IRL to talk to about it. And will agree that Kansenshuu is the better place to discuss this series as I tried Reddit out once and I can't say I was a big fan of it. Well here's hoping that things mellow out in this thread and we have less people at each other's throats. I'll also stop going off topic and I am interested to see your thoughts on the chapter.

[Marlowe89]

It can be difficult to keep up the desire when just talking about the thing you like is an uphill battle by default.

I wouldn't let that discourage you too much. I, for one, really enjoy reading your posts here and I think it's nice to have several users that can assess the manga by its own merits rather than have their perception be colored by anime bias, a dislike for Super in general, or just a lack of understanding about what the story often tries to shoot for. Of course, that's not to suggest that the manga is without its problems, but I think a lot of the complaints thrown around in this thread month after month feel rather shallow and at times completely unfair.

I don't mean to point any fingers though because it's sometimes the case that a few of the posters here are just rambling on their first impressions without meaning any particular harm. And as we can all agree, it's not an echo chamber either -- I can definitely see how someone who enjoys the anime's melodrama and flash might prefer that medium instead, and that's completely fine.

[prince212]

I saw a couple of post joking about 5 minutes have past.
That was at the beginning of the chapter , meaning that chapter 33 1/2 to chapter 34 were 5 minutes .
So each chapter is around 3-4 minutes ... I was expecting double time past per chapter .. , just to have new arcs in Christmas, after the movie , but at this pace .. no way . I’m ok with that , as long as entertains me , and it does

I don't think there's a minutes per chapter rate, but instead, the story goes as fast as it needs to. I can almost guarantee you that time will progress faster near the middle of the tournament, and will slow down again at the end.

I hope thats the case and things happen in order to finish the T.O.P at the end of the year , may be it’s just because we know the end

[prince212]

It still bums me out for the whole world to collectively crap on something I like

You are not alone bro , I like this manga as hell .
That being said , I can still tell good and bad things that aren’t not necessarily somebody’s fault , I just can’t get them but some love them , for example , gokus attitude in this chapter ... hit saved him when Jiren was suppose to knock him out , and later Goku doesn’t wanna help hit .... just don’t get it , you can tell me that he wants to unlock a new form , but without hit he’s mostly suppose to be out of the top. So that was ingratitude . Plus hit save Goku , but Goku couldn’t save hit ... is this our hero ?
I really enjoyed hit in this chapter , he was more open minded than expected and more powerful than Goku who couldn’t punch a single time to Jiren .
Jiren ... fuff he’s a beast , also nice performance in this chapter .
I missed a global panel with all the stage And the fighters . And please I don’t want 4 panels per chapter with Krillin as a narrative alternative .
Good chapter , again new perspectives that refresh something that we know the ending point , but the route is having nice views

[Exline]

There's also the possibility(?) that the ki used for Super Saiyan 1/2/3 and the ki used for SSG/B are different pools of energy. I mean, it has been established that God ki is different from normal ki, so saving God ki for important moments is a pretty good idea. Goku's still plenty strong without it. I hadn't been thinking about ki that way up until now, but I suppose that is consistent with the in-universe logic. Assuming that's what Toyotaro is running with, Goku could potentially burn out on Super Saiyan 3, but as long as he wasn't damaged physically, he could transition into a full-power SSB.

Interesting concept.. But it makes me question whether or not ki = stamina? Or if Ki in general uses up that stamina?

I think it'd be pretty weird if each character with God Ki suddenly gets back up again after using up all of their "mortal ki". Two reservoirs for stamina sounds broken and extremely odd imo.

They should really explain and expand further on God Ki.

Personally I don't really care if Hit got an elimination here or not in this version it's just that his performance against Jiren was as disappointing to me as the anime version. I think the only reason why I slightly prefer him in the anime version is not because of him getting more eliminations but his fight against Dyspo. I rather liked the fight between these two and even if Hit didn't get any eliminations in that version I would have been satisfied alone due to that fight. While I think both versions could have handled Hit better if I were to pick which one I liked more I'd pick the anime. I know people will tell me I'm wrong about this but this is just what I think about the whole Hit situation. Sorry if this comes off as a rambling mess by the way.

No need to apologize for having an opinion.

I am sort of dwindling between which version of the fight I like myself. But yeah, I would've loved to see Hit shown more, but to me he definitely went out like a champ. I also feel this is enough of his character that we have to see because there are way too many new characters that need to have their own spotlight. The fight in this manga was definitely Hit's redemption in the U6 Arc where he didn't do as well against Goku as he did against Jiren.

As others have stated, he has definitely become stronger, dare I say, stronger than the anime version of Hit. I can't believe I'm finally able to say that haha.

I see more people complaining about the people complaining about Hit getting no KOs than the people complaining about Hit getting no KOs.

When I made the post, I made it seem it was just Kanzenshuu. I was finding posts similar to that statement on other sites like Twitter and Nforums.
I also didn't mean to imply that was the only thing upsetting me. Just an example of a few.

That's more or less how I feel. Toyotaro isn't perfect and he's hardly on Toriyama's level, but a lot of the criticisms I've seen levied at the manga this month are exceptionally ridiculous and unfounded. Much worse than usual, I'd venture to say.

Well, I was super excited about this chapter this morning and thought about gushing a little here before going to bed, but I thought "Nah, I'll post about it tomorrow. It can wait.". Reading through the thread today, I don't feel excited anymore - just sad. I realize I should have gone ahead and gotten it out of my system while I was still feeling happy about things so that my positive feelings would've at least gotten out there.

You two said it best. I was actually fanboying a little this morning over how strong Hit had gotten and I was totally looking forward to talking about it, but coming here and reading multiple comments to the effect of, "Wow Hit is such fucking a loser! lol So lame!", I'm just not feeling it anymore. My actual thoughts on the chapter haven't changed, but my mood certainly has. This is actually a major part of the reason why I choose to interact with the community as infrequently as I do. What's my motivation if most of the world has the diametrically opposite view from me? I'm feeling good about one thing or another and decide I might want go talk about it a little online. Then I get there and see that the thing I was feeling happy about is almost universally hated by everyone in the community and everyone's busy making bullet point lists about how much it all sucks. All the enthusiasm immediately drains out of me. Then I just sigh and go do something else. It's like the good mood equivalent of stepping a rake. At this point I know full well that the rake is there, but I keep stepping on it anyway. At this point, I'm starting to feel like Sideshow Bob.

.
.
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Sorry y'all, I know I'm being all melodramatic over this, but it really is a punch in the emotional nads to see this sort thing happen all the time. Maybe I'll make a long rambly post breaking down the logistics of Hit's new strength and my other personal highlights of the chapter later, but for now I'm just feeling bummed out. It's hard to stay excited about Dragon Ball for long these days.

I'm feeling pretty guilty for starting a chain reaction of bad vibes all around (Funny gif lmao. It's honestly how I feel as well when checking comments on twitter and youtube. I check to see if the new chapters/episode gets the same praise I give to it. Sometimes I am disappointed, but most of the time, there are people out there who agree with us.)

However, when they don't agree, it really makes me question the community. Most of the time, they'll make the most unusual excuses as to why the chapter wasn't great.
Ex. (Hit didn't eliminate anyone? Toyotaro sucks at writing!)
Ex. (Why was Goku fighting Toppo in SSJ2? Power level inconcisistency!)
Ex. (Why doesn't Goku fight with Hit to beat Jiren? Bad-writing)
And much more.

Lol if this series was run by these type of fans, it would run straight to ground and never be heard of again...

Another point I want to make...
I've seen people defend episodes like 126 and 128, which I initially believed were two of the many terrible episodes of the anime. These people gave some meaningful perspective to those episodes and I commended them for it because they made some interesting points that made me understood those episodes better and the point that it was trying to make. I am still uneasy about those episodes, but I was able to look at it from a different perspective and interpret it in another way that made me slightly more comfortable with it.

I wish people could do the same as I did for those episodes like they would do with manga chapters they may have been upset with. Maybe they just need help understanding it better. It's not easy going from anime to manga for some individuals is what I assume. Lots of my friends don't enjoy manga and can only rely on the anime interpretations. Manga's don't have music, voice actors, actual sound effects etc. to make it as enjoyable as the anime so I can sort of understand that.

Well, I was super excited about this chapter this morning and thought about gushing a little here before going to bed, but I thought "Nah, I'll post about it tomorrow. It can wait.". Reading through the thread today, I don't feel excited anymore - just sad. I realize I should have gone ahead and gotten it out of my system while I was still feeling happy about things so that my positive feelings would've at least gotten out there.

Never let a fandom ruin your enthusiasm for something. It's very difficult to do, but you'll be thankful you did. Honestly, I get that reading through this thread is a chore sometimes with now pointlessly negative people are with Toyotaro for some reason, but what works for me is not taking things too seriously.

TKA, I enjoy hearing your contributions to the discussion, but I can't lie that sometimes you may come off as condescending or a bit defensive (not obsessively, like Doctor stated). Typically to those who have an opinion in favor or relating to the anime. I think your words would be much more accepted if you can alter the tone in your replies. It may just be me taking it that way.

Nonetheless, I enjoy your involvement in these discussions because you make interesting points when it comes to disproving misinformation that is spread amongst the fandom pertaining to the Super Manga.



I also want to point out what a few others have stated about Toyotaro's storyboarding for fight scenes. I think he really needs to tone it down with the amount of panels for a fight. I feel as if he includes way too many unneccesary panels that don't really add much to fight, like a flurry of punches and some of his anticipation panels that are done at the most awkward of times. I really wish he can improve this. It's one of the very few problems I have with his manga.

The storytelling of this chapter is great. I feel if all I had to read was the dialogue exchanges, that it would still make this chapter enjoyable even without the fight scenes. Jiren referring to Goku as a nobody was interesting here because everybody in the anime knew Goku. Hit and Goku's exchanges were just as great.

I also love when writers take advantage of Goku's pride as a martial artist. He wants to win his own way. It won't feel the same if he does it with the help of someone else. Even though it's a fight for survival, it's definitely in a different setting. Jiren is not a villain trying to kill his friends. It's a martial arts tournament nonetheless. That's how Goku is interpreting this situation.

Later in the arc, he may even come to regret that he should've finished Jiren off earlier. This is what I view as great characterization.

[TKA]

TKA, I enjoy hearing your contributions to the discussion, but I can't lie that sometimes you may come off as condescending or a bit defensive (not obsessively, like Doctor stated). Typically to those who have an opinion in favor or relating to the anime. I think your words would be much more accepted if you can alter the tone in your replies. It may just be me taking it that way.

Nonetheless, I enjoy your involvement in these discussions because you make interesting points when it comes to disproving misinformation that is spread amongst the fandom pertaining to the Super Manga.

I just don't like seeing misinformation or non-substantive arguments. I'm 100% down to see critiques, but I want those to be critiques that make sense and can hold water. If that makes me come across as defensive, then so be it.

However, you are right. I should be more mindful of how I come across when I post. I don't mean to offend anyone. I apologize if I have ever offended you in any way.

[Miracles]

I also want to point out what a few others have stated about Toyotaro's storyboarding for fight scenes. I think he really needs to tone it down with the amount of panels for a fight. I feel as if he includes way too many unneccesary panels that don't really add much to fight, like a flurry of punches and some of his anticipation panels that are done at the most awkward of times. I really wish he can improve this. It's one of the very few problems I have with his manga.

The panels are legit necessary, they show a continuous flow of attacks with no pause. That is Dragonball fight scenes. What do you mean by "anticipation panels?"

[Bergamo]

I also want to point out what a few others have stated about Toyotaro's storyboarding for fight scenes. I think he really needs to tone it down with the amount of panels for a fight. I feel as if he includes way too many unneccesary panels that don't really add much to fight, like a flurry of punches and some of his anticipation panels that are done at the most awkward of times. I really wish he can improve this. It's one of the very few problems I have with his manga.

The panels are legit necessary, they show a continuous flow of attacks with no pause. That is Dragonball fight scenes. What do you mean by "anticipation panels?"

I think he refers to fights like Semiperfect Cell vs Vegeta where Vegeta turns his head for like 4 panels after being hit by an attack. He could have built a bit more tension after Goku fired his Blue Power at Jiren. Having an extra panel or two of smoke clearing would have made the show where Jiren emerges unscathed much more dramatic.

[The Monkey King]

A pretty disappointing chapter.

The fight scenes were quite boring.
Couldn't Goku decide to "push himself" when the universe isn't at stake?
The panelling was a mess
The whole tournament looked dull and empty.
Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SSJ2 Goku?

The anime did a way better job with Goku and Hit fighting together and Hit vs Jiren

[Bergamo]

A pretty disappointing chapter.

The fight scenes were quite boring.
Couldn't Goku decide to "push himself" when the universe isn't at stake?
The panelling was a mess
The whole tournament looked dull and empty.
Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SSJ2 Goku?

The anime did a way better job with Goku and Hit fighting together and Hit vs Jiren

Are people still on about Toppo? You got to see 10 people get one-shotted last chapter. Why don't Goku and Vegeta go Blue and one-shot everyone but Hit, Toppo, Dyspo, and Jiren?

[TKA]

I think he refers to fights like Semiperfect Cell vs Vegeta where Vegeta turns his head for like 4 panels after being hit by an attack. He could have built a bit more tension after Goku fired his Blue Power at Jiren. Having an extra panel or two of smoke clearing would have made the show where Jiren emerges unscathed much more dramatic.

Disagree. This wasn't a dramatic moment. Jiren literally turned his back and was walking away. This was meant to be a showing of just how above him Jiren is. If Toyo milked it for more drama by adding more panels, it'd both be a waste of space and dilute the fact that Jiren is supposed to be so far above Goku (because if there's a delay in showing that Jiren is unscathed, it makes the reader think "Oh wow, Goku did a lot of damage" when that isn't the goal; the goal is that the reader must think Goku doesn't stand a chance at all).

You can see this technique employed in the Broly movie where he just walks through attacks and there's little use of dramatic dust clouds. It was meant to show he was just that much stronger than everyone. As much as I hate Broly and his movies, the one thing they do very well is show off that Broly's power is maximum. Jiren's power is even maximum-er.

[Bergamo]

I think he refers to fights like Semiperfect Cell vs Vegeta where Vegeta turns his head for like 4 panels after being hit by an attack. He could have built a bit more tension after Goku fired his Blue Power at Jiren. Having an extra panel or two of smoke clearing would have made the show where Jiren emerges unscathed much more dramatic.

Disagree. This wasn't a dramatic moment. Jiren literally turned his back and was walking away. This was meant to be a showing of just how above him Jiren is. If Toyo milked it for more drama by adding more panels, it'd both be a waste of space and dilute the fact that Jiren is supposed to be so far above Goku (because if there's a delay in showing that Jiren is unscathed, it makes the reader think "Oh wow, Goku did a lot of damage" when that isn't the goal; the goal is that the reader must think Goku doesn't stand a chance at all).

You can see this technique employed in the Broly movie where he just walks through attacks and there's little use of dramatic dust clouds. It was meant to show he was just that much stronger than everyone. As much as I hate Broly and his movies, the one thing they do very well is show off that Broly's power is maximum. Jiren's power is even maximum-er.

It was just an example of how Toyo could use "anticipation panels." Take my opinions on panel composition with a grain of salt.

[ToshioWrites]

First of all Goku and Hit didn't fight together vs one common opponent in the anime. Goku fought Dyspo and then Took Kunshee while Hit at first took Kunshee and then switched to Dyspo, they never went 2 vs 1 on anyone.

Secondly, how exactly is goku supposed to push himself in times of peace? Whether we like it or not, they made a point to tell us saiyans grow the most when absolutely backed into a corner or pushed in battle to their limits. All the lunges in the world at Whis wouldn't help him reach the heights he wants to nearly as quickly as fighting Jiren. Also since when has Goku done the smart/logical thing?

Same guy who let Vegeta live
Let freeza go 100% and offered to let him live
Didn't use shenron to kill gero
Gave cell a senzu
didn't kill fat buu and instead left it up to 2 kids with ZERO combat experience

[TKA]

What in the actual hell is going on with Jiren's forehead in this chapter? Is El Hermano his stunt double now?

I just reread the chapter.

Jiren's head looks oblong because in most of the panels he has his head down or tilted. You can't draw it perfectly round if the "camera" isn't looking at him directly from the center front or center back. You see this 'oblong tilt' with every character, where their hair looks bigger than it should, but because Jiren is bald it looks weird.

It was just an example of how Toyo could use "anticipation panels." Take my opinions on panel composition with a grain of salt.

There were enough pages where we got slow, deliberate pages to breathe. Like when Hit used his new move, or when Goku was on his knees before Jiren (oh boy, tumblr's gonna have fun with that). Those are all the same kind of lull-in-the-action moments.

[jeffbr92]

Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SSJ2 Goku?

Are people still on about Toppo? You got to see 10 people get one-shotted last chapter. Why don't Goku and Vegeta go Blue and one-shot everyone but Hit, Toppo, Dyspo, and Jiren?

That is also no excuse, I bet if Vegeta was fighting an enemy he knew it was holding back, he would overpower him easily.

[Bergamo]

Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SSJ2 Goku?

Are people still on about Toppo? You got to see 10 people get one-shotted last chapter. Why don't Goku and Vegeta go Blue and one-shot everyone but Hit, Toppo, Dyspo, and Jiren?

That is also no excuse, I bet if Vegeta was fighting an enemy he knew it was holding back, he would overpower him easily.

Today I learned no one ever held back to make the story more dramatic. Everyone is trying to save stamina, so of course they aren't going all out from the beginning. That also doesn't mean they will immediately get 1 shot by everyone around them for daring to go near any formidable tournament. Jiren should literally end the tournament immediately by your logic.

[jeffbr92]

Jiren should literally end the tournament immediately by your logic.

Not my logic, but real logic. That why this arc has one of the worst storytelling we ever saw in the franchise. This fake tension kills everything.