"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ToshioWrites]

Goku and Vegeta are fine, since their strongest forms are taxing on their bodies. But what excuse does someone like Toppo have to be fighting at SS2 or SS3 levels of strength? Jiren, even when suppressing himself, is still at a level of power where he can fight Goku and Hit, and yet nobody is saying he's burning himself out.

Toppo tops out at ssb level so he's conserving his energy as much as goku and vegeta are by fighting as ss2-3 levels. Just cause he doesn't have to transform doesn't mean using god or blue levels of power don't take their toll on him

jiren isn't burning himself out cause the level he's using is akin to his base form. He's so goddamn strong, he can barely try and still swat ssb level fighters which is the max level of anyone outside of jiren himself

[Doctor.]

And Gohan was about to power up to defeat them, but then Frost intervened and took and majority of the fighters that Gohan and Piccolo were struggling with. Gohan recognized that their battle was going no where, even telling Piccolo that he felt like he had no choice, but to power-up. He just didn't get to powerup because he did have to do so.

And Goku did eventaully power-up against Toppo, and Dyspo didn't he? Not just immediately.

Yes, and that's good. But if they recognize they should just go full power to handle their opponents instead of fooling around in weaker forms and be susceptible to tire themselves out or, worse, being knocked out, then that just makes the scenes where they are fighting in their weaker forms all the more foolish. Like I said above, it's not a big issue at all, but it does serve as an example of unimaginative padding.

jiren isn't burning himself out cause the level he's using is akin to his base form. He's so goddamn strong, he can barely try and still swat ssb level fighters which is the max level of anyone outside of jiren himself

And Toppo is so strong he can sway away SS2 level fighters, yet a flurry of punches "without mercy" did as much as lay a couple of scratches on Goku's Gi.

[Bergamo]

You do know many fodder characters were eliminated off-screen?

Yes, I appreciate the effort. But keep it consistent all the way through. Toyotaro can't have his cake and eat it too. He can't say "okay, all the irrelevant characters will drop out because they're weak" and say at the same time "but the relevant characters who are suppressing themselves to be weak will stay in."

For all we know a strong guy got eliminated because he was suppressing himself. Goku was about to be defeated by Toppo, but because he wasn't defeated in exactly one hit there's a problem. Not even Jiren eliminated Goku or Hit with one attack. Why are you so hung up over this one concept. Enjoy the arc and stop mulling over one thing that bothers you a little.

That's not likely. We know who the strongest people are.

It's not about not being defeated in one hit. Toppo was hammering Goku with a flurry of punches after saying "no mercy." You would think he'd try to knock Goku out of the stage at some point. It's distracting when you know that if the series was following the rules of its predecessor, there would be none of this fake tension and either Goku would get knocked out for foolishly suppressing himself for so long, or he'd go God/Blue instantly the moment he ran into Toppo.

I'm not mulling over one thing; people answer my posts and I've kept replying back because that's how discussions work. This isn't even one of the biggest issues I have with the arc - nor is it a big issue at all. It's a sign that Toyotaro is creatively bankrupt if anything else, but there are plenty of those throughout his entire manga.

The fact is that not all weak characters get eliminated before the strong characters. Hit got eliminated before Roshi, and Hit wasn't even suppressing himself. We see Gohan say he's going to use his full power the panel before Frost does the same thing, and we know how Frost ended up. There is a time and place to use your full power, and if you make an unwise decision it will cost you.

Also, give me some good examples of fighters paying full attention getting one-shot.

[batistabus]

At any rate the stakes here are far, FAR greater than anything beforehand, this is the assured erasure of his entire universe with no Dragon Balls to bring anything back.

The stakes here are the same as they always were. They only seem higher because we know more about the Dragon Ball world. If King Piccolo had won back in his arc, our heroes would have been destroyed with no hope of restoring everybody. Same with Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Boo, Beerus, and Zamasu.

I'm not sure why people are leaving out the fact that Goku knows Migatte no Gokui exists and believes he's capable of achieving it. It's no different than the situation with Gohan and Super Saiyan 2. It's the only chance they have at victory; teaming up with Hit would not have been enough to defeat Jiren, and they both might have been eliminated in the process.

[Omniboy]

.
Yes, and that's good. But if they recognize they should just go full power to handle their opponents instead of fooling around in weaker forms and be susceptible to tire themselves out or, worse, being knocked out, then that just makes the scenes where they are fighting in their weaker forms all the more foolish. Like I said above, it's not a big issue at all, but it does serve as an example of unimaginative padding.

But the thing is that they are literally just starting out. I'm not sure exactly sure how long it has been, but my guess is that it that it has been atleast 2-3 minutes. Maybe even less. I see nothing wrong with a rough fight in that short amount of time, and then deciding that you're opponents might need more power to be taken out after gauging just how strong they are. If this was like a 5-10 minute fight going on, and then you decided that full power was needed, then I could see where you are coming from with this. But Gohan was smart, and after seeing just how strong all of them were, and then decided that action was needed immediately at the beginning. Keep in mind that the plan is to keep stamina. Trying to accomplish that plan, and then deciding to take a risk after that plan dosen't work quite the way you want it to go isn't really bad at all.

[Exline]

I'm referring to scenes like this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
This panel doesn't feel it adds anything at all to the fight. It actually feels like it slows the pace of the fight.

No, absolutely not. That's a transitory panel showing the in-between stage of Hit moving from one attack motion to another. That's completely necessary and is ALL OVER Toriyama's original manga. It's one of the strengths of it since it isn't just dynamic panels of static attacks. We see how the characters move. That's what sets dragonball in its action scenes apart from American-style comics. Dragonball manga fights have to convey motion and aslightly decompressed style is how you do so.

[spoiler]Examples: https://i.imgur.com/j72oqYS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ji5oEt2.png

https://i.imgur.com/Nt3a3dA.png

https://i.imgur.com/wxDyBV3.png[/spoiler]

I just meant for that scene in particular. It was why I said he does it occasionally at the most awkward of times. In that scene, it wasn't really needed. The attack didn't have much weight to it either way.

I didn't mean to imply that the practice shouldn't be done. He did it well with Jiren in the last moments of the fight. A panel shows Jiren catching Hit's fist, surprising him. Jiren gets serious by clenching his fist. And then proceeds to uppercut Hit.

However, in that scene, it wasn't really needed. The attack didn't have much weight to it either way and looks extremely awkward.

In those examples you've used, it's done beautifully. The Spirit Bomb on Vegeta page in particular.

But see how in your first example, we don't see Vegeta charging behind Goku getting ready to attack? It's because we don't need to and it comes off as much more surprising. It keeps the battle feeling fast-paced as well. Some of those transitory panels like you've mentioned are unneeded sometimes. They're good to demonstrate motion and tension at times, but if used frequently and at moments where it can be done without, it doesn't have that same effect.

Ngl looking at my argument now, it seems like a major nitpick. But I can't help but want to discuss it anyway haha
(Oh and in regards to your previous reply, You haven't offended me. I don't think you have with anyone else either.)

I can't understand why people want these fights to start off with everyone at max power. If that was the case, these fights would be over in a matter of seconds. It would make this Battle Royale boring. I'm fine with the approach Goku and the others are taking by convserving their stamina for later. They don't know their opponents very well and are unaware of what they are capable of.

I will explain it again. Dragon Ball has always functioned in one way: massively stronger characters can knock out massively weaker characters in a flash, without exerting too much or any energy at all. The excuse that they're conserving their stamina doesn't work for this reason alone.

Now, does this mean I want Jiren to flex and instantly knock out every character in the tournament? Of course not. But it also means I don't want previously established rules in regards to how fights work in this franchise (and, considering how focused Dragon Ball is on fighting, those rules should be pretty important) to be thrown away. So, creative workarounds are necessary. Just one I keep mentioning is to have the strongest characters face each other from the start. We're only 5 minutes in and Goku/Hit and Jiren are already facing each-other; that's good. Do more of that instead of having something like, say, Gohan hold back in his base form against a bunch of weaklings and tiring himself out by dodging, blocking and punching opponents around his level of strength rather than just power-up to max and knock them out instantly.

I think maybe dodging/blocking/etc. drains less stamina than actual transformations. It seems its more taxing to activate these SSJ forms than it is to jump around constantly. Maybe thats why they scream so much? haha.

I am slowly getting your point. It'd be a waste of time to see Goku fight with all the less threatening fighters and focus more on Jiren. However, I am also fine with characters escalating Goku's transformations. It'd be nice to see on of his fights push him to SSJ2, then another with SSJ3, and so on and so forth. I like how they did this with Goku vs. Caulifla and Kale. It's a great way of keeping these transformations relevant as well.

And maybe characters have honed their ability to overcome such powerful opponents to the point where a flick is not enough for them to be ringed out. I understand it's happened in the past, but we don't have to keep dwelling on it. Many things have changed over the years in dragon and I'm glad we don't do that as frequently in Super anymore.

I'm now realizing something. It is odd how Gohan doesn't go Full-Power Super Saiyan since it doesn't drain as much stamina anymore.

It also a battle royale. You can't always fight who you want to fight. And Toyotaro made it realistic by having Jiren ignore Goku. Goku had to jump in at full power to get his attention.

This is wrong, though. Characters can fight exactly whoever they want, because the writer arbitrarily chooses who faces off against who. Goku was fighting against Dyspo and Toppo at the start of this chapter even though he was nowhere near them in the last one (which is surprising considering how well the previous chapters handled the transition between different match-ups). You just need to find a credible way to make two characters face-off and there you go.

Actually, I found it weird how Frost didn't already get rid of Oregano after he could've eliminated him. He easily had him out-matched but needed a large surprise attack to get rid of him only.

And my question, you believe Toyotaro has done well with that? Matching characters up in an understandable manner?

[Doctor.]

The fact is that not all weak characters get eliminated before the strong characters. Hit got eliminated before Roshi, and Hit wasn't even suppressing himself. We see Gohan say he's going to use his full power the panel before Frost does the same thing, and we know how Frost ended up. There is a time and place to use your full power, and if you make an unwise decision it will cost you.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying weaker fighters should be eliminated instantly. I'm saying that in order to prevent that (while maintaining the rules of how power works in this series), creative workarounds (such as having the strongest characters fight each-other; again, Goku/Hit fighting Jiren so soon is a good thing, but apply it to everyone else too) are necessary.

Furthermore, being at full power doesn't mean you have to be active in eliminating people like Frost did. Being at full power means you're less susceptible to getting eliminated by someone else because you're constantly on-guard. If Goku had gone SSB when he met up with Toppo and Dyspo, he wouldn't have risked getting eliminated and wouldn't have gotten all that damage and would have perhaps been better off against Jiren. The fact that Goku acknowledges he should have gone full power (by actually going full power) makes the scene where he's fooling around look like unimaginative padding.

Also, give me some good examples of fighters paying full attention getting one-shot.

What, in the original series? How much time do you got? The Monkey King posted a good example earlier.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Here's another one.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Or yet another.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And one more.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I could keep going all day. Weak characters getting one shot isn't an exception to the rule, it is the rule. And not one that only happens later in the series like Marlowe89 is saying, but one that has been present ever since the earliest arcs.

[Doctor.]

And my question, you believe Toyotaro has done well with that? Matching characters up in an understandable manner?

I feel like he has done well of showing how fight A can transition into fight B in such a chaotic setting. For instance, pages like this one:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You'll find pages like this in the previous chapters (and even in this one). When Toyo wants to focus on a different fight, he'll put the fight you're currently watching on the background of the next panel, as he focuses on the new fight in the foreground. This allows for a fluid transition between the different fights and characters. You always know what each character is doing and where they stand in the arena relative to each other (though this always has the drawback of making the arena seem smaller than it should be). This is one thing he has been doing exceptionally well in this tournament. At least in comparison to the anime, that would just cut to a different, completely irrelevant fight abruptly and would never have consistency from one episode to the next (characters could be fighting entirely different people in the next episode than the people they were fighting in the episode you've finished watching).

I still think he could have utilized the fodder characters better in regards to match-ups that utilize their gimmicks in a creative way. This was a major flaw of the anime, and I was hoping it could be fixed here. Though here it can be excused considering the faster pace Toyotaro seems to be going for. Characters getting knocked out left, right and center works in this context. But, again, it only works if he keeps it consistent with all the characters; it stops working once weak characters start surviving encounters against stronger characters arbitrarily.

[Bergamo]

The fact is that not all weak characters get eliminated before the strong characters. Hit got eliminated before Roshi, and Hit wasn't even suppressing himself. We see Gohan say he's going to use his full power the panel before Frost does the same thing, and we know how Frost ended up. There is a time and place to use your full power, and if you make an unwise decision it will cost you.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying weaker fighters should be eliminated instantly. I'm saying that in order to prevent that (while maintaining the rules of how power works in this series), creative workarounds (such as having the strongest characters fight each-other; again, Goku/Hit fighting Jiren so soon is a good thing, but apply it to everyone else too) are necessary.

Furthermore, being at full power doesn't mean you have to be active in eliminating people like Frost did. Being at full power means you're less susceptible to getting eliminated by someone else because you're constantly on-guard. If Goku had gone SSB when he met up with Toppo and Dyspo, he wouldn't have risked getting eliminated and wouldn't have gotten all that damage and would have perhaps been better off against Jiren. The fact that Goku acknowledges he should have gone full power (by actually going full power) makes the scene where he's fooling around look like unimaginative padding.

Also, give me some good examples of fighters paying full attention getting one-shot.

What, in the original series? How much time do you got? The Monkey King posted a good example earlier.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Here's another one.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Or yet another.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And one more.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I could keep going all day. Weak characters getting one shot isn't an exception to the rule, it is the rule. And not one that only happens later in the series like Marlowe89 is saying, but one that has been present ever since the earliest arcs.

Alright, I guess. I still think it's more impactful to see Goku get forced to transform, rather than having him transform immediately.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Also pages like these:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Where it's just a page of nothing but dialogue with multiple panels I have a problem with as well. I do enjoy the dialogue and I understand that if it were all clumped into fewer panels, than it would not be as great. The panels themselves are what bore me. There is nothing to them. It just changes to someone else's face nearly each sentence and it's annoying. I feel Toyotaro could have definitely done much better with these scenes. It sometimes seems that he is trying to make these monthly chapters seem exactly like an anime episode which I personally don't think works too well. Why make a comic feel less of a comic?

Whilst discussing about how to beat Jiren, the panel could be focused just on him walking towards them whilst they discuss what they plan to do with him. But that's not what happen's here. To me, it's honestly too many expressions for one page. And the large quantity of panels on this page just for dialogue also makes it feel bloated because it seems unnecessary and be done with shorter. The dialogue would have to be dialed back, but I think it'd be for the better in cases like these.

( Apologies for my ranting, I only want Toyotaro to get better ); )

Also, something I'd like to add , is that the dialogue is sometimes hard/annoying to follow due to Toyotaro's weird's paneling , an example is present in the picture you posted: he does this weird thing where ha places a long panel, with dialogue on the top, and on the bottom, and then he adds two small ones right to the left, and it kills the reading flow. Toryiama managed to guide your eyes through the panels in a satisfying ,and easy way to follow, while with Toyotaro , it feels much less organic.

[Marlowe89]

And not one that only happens later in the series like Marlowe89 is saying, but one that has been present ever since the earliest arcs.

By "embrace" I meant that it seems to have occurred more frequently in later arcs, not that it was totally absent in the earliest arcs. Mind you, this is solely from memory right now so my assertion may not even be correct.

This doesn't really change my interpretation or overall point in the slightest. Power suppression from the strongest fighters early on in the tournament makes sense, and I like the idea of potentially interesting choreography and scenarios that can arise from that. I absolutely find it preferable to one-shotting in itself, regardless of whether that's associated with Toriyama or not.

Case in point: I criticized the manga just last month for eliminating Tenshinhan and Kuririn in this manner, a remark that I continue to stand by.

[Doctor.]

And not one that only happens later in the series like Marlowe89 is saying, but one that has been present ever since the earliest arcs.

By "embrace" I meant that it seems to have occurred more frequently in later arcs, not that it was totally absent in the earliest arcs. Mind you, this is solely from memory right now so my assertion may not even be correct.

This doesn't really change my interpretation or overall point in the slightest. Power suppression from the strongest fighters early on in the tournament makes sense, and I like the idea of potentially interesting choreography and scenarios that can arise from that. I absolutely find it preferable to one-shotting in itself, regardless of whether that's associated with Toriyama or not.

Case in point: I criticized the manga just last month for eliminating Tenshinhan and Kuririn in this manner.

I understand, but I think you can easily have both if you just properly utilize the characters at your disposal. You have 80 blank slates in this tournament, it's perfectly possible to create match-ups where "one-shotting" isn't a possibility. Instead of having Gohan handle Bergamo & co in base, why not just make Bergamo & co as strong as Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2? There, I just fixed a match-up where Gohan is still trying to "conserve stamina" but also isn't stupidly taking damage instead of transforming into a form that barely takes away any of his Ki (since that was the entire point of the Cell Games training).

And even so, you can still have perfectly creative choreography and interesting drama even when this "one-shot" philosophy is at play. The teamwork during the Namek arc was great. Gohan, Kuririn and Vegeta teaming up against Recoome made for a fantastic fight. Or during the Saiyan arc when Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn were fighting Nappa. Much of those fights focused on dodging or attacking together because even one blow from the opponent would leave them in critical condition.

I just don't see how it's very thrilling to see a fight where a character is using his weaker forms (and, thus, any established tension can shatter the moment he transforms) instead of a legitimate struggle.

[Omniboy]

I understand, but I think you can easily have both if you just properly utilize the characters at your disposal. You have 80 characters in this tournament, it's perfectly possible to create match-ups where "one-shotting" isn't a possibility. Instead of having Gohan handle Bergamo & co in base, why not just make Bergamo & co as strong as Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2? There, I just fixed a match-up where Gohan is still trying to "conserve stamina" but also isn't stupidly taking damage instead of transforming into a form that barely takes away any of his Ki (since that was the entire point of the Cell Games training).

Okay I so may be wrong here, but asking. Does transforming for Gohan do anything for him? I was always under the thought that his "Ultimate state" was just him in his base form. Elder kai evens says try to go super saiyan, but then instead of transforming, Gohan stays in his base. I think I just need some clarity.

[Doctor.]

I understand, but I think you can easily have both if you just properly utilize the characters at your disposal. You have 80 characters in this tournament, it's perfectly possible to create match-ups where "one-shotting" isn't a possibility. Instead of having Gohan handle Bergamo & co in base, why not just make Bergamo & co as strong as Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2? There, I just fixed a match-up where Gohan is still trying to "conserve stamina" but also isn't stupidly taking damage instead of transforming into a form that barely takes away any of his Ki (since that was the entire point of the Cell Games training).

Okay I so may be wrong here, but asking. Does transforming for Gohan do anything for him? I was always under the thought that his "Ultimate state" was just him in his base form. Elder kai evens says try to go super saiyan, but then instead of transforming, Gohan stays in his base. I think I just need some clarity.

That was how it worked in the original series. But Super retconned it and "ultimate" is just a transformation now (differentiated by the bang, in the anime at least). I'm assuming Toyotaro's manga works under the same logic, considering it follows F (where Gohan had to go Super Saiyan) and Gohan's line in the previous chapter about needing to use his full power.

[Omniboy]

I understand, but I think you can easily have both if you just properly utilize the characters at your disposal. You have 80 characters in this tournament, it's perfectly possible to create match-ups where "one-shotting" isn't a possibility. Instead of having Gohan handle Bergamo & co in base, why not just make Bergamo & co as strong as Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2? There, I just fixed a match-up where Gohan is still trying to "conserve stamina" but also isn't stupidly taking damage instead of transforming into a form that barely takes away any of his Ki (since that was the entire point of the Cell Games training).

Okay I so may be wrong here, but asking. Does transforming for Gohan do anything for him? I was always under the thought that his "Ultimate state" was just him in his base form. Elder kai evens says try to go super saiyan, but then instead of transforming, Gohan stays in his base. I think I just need some clarity.

That was how it worked in the original series. But Super retconned it and "ultimate" is just a transformation now (differentiated by the bang, in the anime at least). I'm assuming Toyotaro's manga works under the same logic, considering it follows F (where Gohan had to go Super Saiyan) and Gohan's line in the previous chapter about needing to use his full power.

Honestly I was never truly sure if that was ever apart of Toyo's actual canon within his manga since it came out before super ever was actually thing. Plus it seemingly also follows, the whole base form=god that the movie itself has, which was never in the manga itself during the running of the actual show. But I may be wrong about that.

However, in the chapter of battle of gods he does go super saiyan during the ritual. But right after that, while Gohan was spectating, he somehow goes to his ultimate form. I kind feel as though Toyo needs himself to specify this.

[The gr]

Do you guys think chapter 35 is the worst chapter of the manga,in term of narrative and action.I found chapter 13,19 and 22 way worse than this since those chapter lacked any tension and they were extremely boring.

[Kanassa]

Do you guys think chapter 35 is the worst chapter of the manga,in term of narrative and action.I found chapter 13,19 and 22 way worse than this since those chapter lacked any tension and they were extremely boring.

Nah, I don't think anything can get as bad as most of the Zamasu Arc chapters

[The gr]

Nah, I don't think anything can get as bad as most of the Zamasu Arc chapters

What about chapter 13 or those rushed chapter of Bog.

[Doctor.]

Do you guys think chapter 35 is the worst chapter of the manga,in term of narrative and action.I found chapter 13,19 and 22 way worse than this since those chapter lacked any tension and they were extremely boring.

No, it was mediocre. Nothing too exciting but nothing offensive either. A lot of the Zamasu arc chapters were worse like Kanassa mentioned. Though I don't think any of them ever get as offensively stupid as the anime. They're mostly just terribly boring. That's the manga's major crime; it does nothing to my emotions. At least the anime can get me angry.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I think its unfair to compare how Hit was treated to how Krillin and Tien were treated. Hit had this chapter focus on him and how he and Goku showed some comradery with each other. Hit had character development and it was a pretty cool fight against Jiren. Sure Jiren ended up one kit KO on Hit, but it was still a good show. Tien and Krillin on the other hand didn't get anything, no character development, no moment to shine, nope they were just fodder for a chapter that focused on Freeza and Frost.