"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[JazzMazz]

My hopes for this tournament were really dampened with this chapter.

The Hit vs Jiren fight was far more interesting here than it was in its anime counter-part, but that's really saying much, since episode 111 was easily one of the abysmal episodes of an already abysmal arc. The general idea and strategies behind the fight were really cool here, however, I felt like that it was missing some of the flavour that the "universe 6 family" dynamic added to the fight(really, that was one of the few redeeming qualities of the fight in the anime). Despite being better than the anime's fight, I still think it falls short of being anything really good.

I know a lot of people have mentioned the art, and TBH, I think it was more the panelling and layouts that were weak in this chapter. Something that bothered me personally is how often he just left the backgrounds completely empty, or had the characters fighting to a colourless backdrop. With this in mind, I have to say this was probably the weakest chapter of the tournament in artistically.
[spoiler]This one was exceptionally amatuerish[/spoiler]

You did have some interesting panels and dynamic fighting panels, but for every interesting panel, we got 3 dulls ones.
[spoiler]This was great

Was this similarity intentional, or merely coincidental? Either way I like it.

This was a cool panel.
[spoiler]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png[/spoiler][/spoiler]


I really wanted to be positive about this chapter, but really, there isn't much really positively engaging about it, other than the fact it was stronger take on one of the worst fights in the anime. I hope that as the tournament progresses, some sort linear story is developed beyond merely fights, but my confidence is beginning to waver in Toyotaro pulling this off.

Final thing, Hit looks really bad without his lower trench coat, like exceptionally bad. I could understand what Toyo was going for by making his design simpler, but dear god, the lower half of his design without his trench coat just looks really incongruent and at odds with the top half. Not a great creative choice in my opinion.

[TKA]

You're delusional.

Attack the argument. Leave my perceived mental state out of this. Thank you.

Hit legitimately caught Jiren off guard and knocked Jiren to the edge of the ring in the anime using pure skill and strategy before Jiren overpowered him.

Yes, like I said he used his typical “my power is maximum” bullshit.

Unlike in the magna, Jiren was just screwing around with him the entire time.

Did you stop reading the chapter after Hit got eliminated? Because right after that Goku explains that Jiren suckered Hit in and unleashed his true power to ring him out. Jiren had to use actual strategy because he couldn’t keep fighting through the time lag. He didn’t overpower or break the technique. Just as Toppo beat Goku by taking advantage of an opening, so did Jiren beat Hit.

So Jiren going to the edge was nothing more than a plan by Jiren

Yes! Exactly! It’s a plan because there was no other way out for him. Hit cornered him and forced him to use a risky plan.

unlike the anime where Hit is the first guy to strike Jiren legitimately.

Hard to be “legitimate” when Jiren isn’t using full power, shat on all of Hit’s moves and then trounced him. Here, Jiren holding back his power had an actual strategic component.

Claiming otherwise is naive

So basically, what you're saying is "If you disagree with me, clearly something is wrong with you." That's a pretty infantile debate tactic. Don't use it.

[LightBing]

My two cents regarding Goku using SSJ2 against Toppo, which seems to be the reason for some of the discussions going on. It's a minor mistake not because of power levels but because of writing consistency.

Like I wrote before, Super Saiyan God should have been the form used because the opponent was someone on the level of "Gods" and the manga consistently made it clear the difference in power between those.
It's reasonable to think that Toppo, knowing all he knows about Goku would ponder catching him by surprise when he's fighting suppressed to such a degree.
Had Goku fought in SSG, Toppo not risking going ham is much more reasonable since Goku's isn't like he would say "wide open".

The purpose of all this is saving energy.
Now some people mentioned SSJ2 spends less than SSG, that's a statement that nobody can prove unless my memory is really bad; there's nothing in the manga about SSJ2 energy strain. Regardless that's secondary and honestly nit-picking. People could do the same and clamor for why isn't Goku saving energy by fighting in base since it certainly costs less energy than everything else.

The writing consistency problem comes of how Toyotarõ made SSG a "balanced form which doesn't spend much energy" quoting Goku here. Goku uses it to save energy against Zamasu, Vegeta uses it to explode into Blue, after these fight's we can see, yup Goku's right the form doesn't spend much energy!
The last arc is an anthem to Super Saiyan God advantages.

So that's that's my problem and it's very little. Because the scene is played straight: everyone knows what's going on, it's used to their advantage and finally Goku is forced to escape the hole he dig up for himself. No forced drama, no bullshit.

[jplaya2023]

did anyone else get goku and piccolo vs raditz vibes from goku and hit vs jiren in this chapter?

goku holds off the opponent while hit tries a new attack but goku decides not to help and leaves hit alone.

Hit being eliminated this early was a sure waste 2 me.

[TysonWine]

I don't mind Hit being eliminated. It feels a lot more organic here than in the anime. The anime felt like the writers were just ready to start eliminated U6 and the easiest way to get rid of Hit is to have him fight Jiren. It especially didn't make since for Hit to charge Jiren considering what he just did to U.I Goku and the fact that Hit's supposed to be an assassin who relied on special techniques.

In the manga, we don't know how their fight started which is a plus. I mean, it is a battle royal, and it would be just as contrived to have strong fighters avoid each other until the end. Hit learned in his fight with Goku that he needed to improve his physical power, and went above and beyond by combining his new strength with new techniques. Jiren was the perfect test for this, he just came up short.

[Simere]

Did you stop reading the chapter after Hit got eliminated? Because right after that Goku explains that Jiren suckered Hit in and unleashed his true power to ring him out. Jiren had to use actual strategy because he couldn’t keep fighting through the time lag. He didn’t overpower or break the technique. Just as Toppo beat Goku by taking advantage of an opening, so did Jiren beat Hit.

This is him overpowering the technique:

"I-I can't believe it...! Jiren sped up his attack enough to overcome the time lag!"

And this it being revealed that he could have done it at any time:

"So you purposefully left yourself open, letting him push you to the edge? All so you could turn the tables like that? Saving your strength for now, then?"

But just chose not to because he didn't want or need to waste his energy. Not because Hit's technique had him on the ropes and he had to resort to that.

Yes! Exactly! It’s a plan because there was no other way out for him. Hit cornered him and forced him to use a risky plan.

No other way out? Forced? He was in control the entire time; not even the slightest amount of risk was present for Jiren.

[ToshioWrites]

If Goku had helped Hit with his plan , both of them would have been eliminated.

[Bergamo]

Did you stop reading the chapter after Hit got eliminated? Because right after that Goku explains that Jiren suckered Hit in and unleashed his true power to ring him out. Jiren had to use actual strategy because he couldn’t keep fighting through the time lag. He didn’t overpower or break the technique. Just as Toppo beat Goku by taking advantage of an opening, so did Jiren beat Hit.

This is him overpowering the technique:

"I-I can't believe it...! Jiren sped up his attack enough to overcome the time lag!"

And this it being revealed that he could have done it at any time:

"So you purposefully left yourself open, letting him push you to the edge? All so you could turn the tables like that? Saving your strength for now, then?"

But just chose not to because he didn't want or need to waste his energy. Not because Hit's technique had him on the ropes and he had to resort to that.

Yes! Exactly! It’s a plan because there was no other way out for him. Hit cornered him and forced him to use a risky plan.

No other way out? Forced? He was in control the entire time; not even the slightest amount of risk was present for Jiren.

Wasting energy is tension. We know that Goku and Jiren aren't getting eliminated any time soon, so when they lose energy, that's a big deal. It's not, "will goku win?" it's, "how will he win?" so it's a good when Jiren wastes energy, and bad when Goku does it.

[Omniboy]

The writing consistency problem comes of how Toyotarõ made SSG a "balanced form which doesn't spend much energy" quoting Goku here.

Just one little minor thing here because I don't know how much of a difference it makes here. When Goku made this statement, he said in comparison to blue, that Super saiyan God was much more balanced. Maybe, this implies that there may be problems with Super Saiyan God, but I'm not sure.

[TKA]

The writing consistency problem comes of how Toyotarõ made SSG a "balanced form which doesn't spend much energy" quoting Goku here.

Just one little minor thing here because I don't know how much of a difference it makes here. When Goku made this statement, he said in comparison to blue, that Super saiyan God was much more balanced. Maybe, this implies that there may be problems with Super Saiyan God, but I'm not sure. But overall I am in agreement with you.

I’ve said it numerous times and every time it’s been ignored. Regardless of how efficient SSG is, it’s still a higher super Saiyan form that puts out more power. You’re still gonna be burning more power in SSG than in SS2

[Rakurai]

The writing consistency problem comes of how Toyotarõ made SSG a "balanced form which doesn't spend much energy" quoting Goku here.

Just one little minor thing here because I don't know how much of a difference it makes here. When Goku made this statement, he said in comparison to blue, that Super saiyan God was much more balanced. Maybe, this implies that there may be problems with Super Saiyan God, but I'm not sure.

Certainly we have no reason to believe that SSG would waste less energy than SSJ2, or even SSJ3 for that matter. Goku opted to use SSJ3 various times in the manga before SSG, if it were much less power consuming then he certainly would've skipped it. At the very least we have no reason to believe Goku would ever want to continue using such inefficient forms if he's better off just using SSG.

[Omniboy]

The writing consistency problem comes of how Toyotarõ made SSG a "balanced form which doesn't spend much energy" quoting Goku here.

Just one little minor thing here because I don't know how much of a difference it makes here. When Goku made this statement, he said in comparison to blue, that Super saiyan God was much more balanced. Maybe, this implies that there may be problems with Super Saiyan God, but I'm not sure. But overall I am in agreement with you.

I’ve said it numerous times and every time it’s been ignored. Regardless of how efficient SSG is, it’s still a higher super Saiyan form that puts out more power. You’re still gonna be burning more power in SSG than in SS2

Here is where I am getting at. I acknowledge that SSG might have issues. That's why I tried to bring in some more context into his statement about SSG being more balanced. Because when Goku made that statement, it was in comparison to blue, that it was more balanced. However the thing is that while I am all for conserving energy, the fighters themselves should know when conserving isn't the best choice. Goku has fought Toppo before, and he knows that his normal super saiyan forms couldn't do anything to him, even before Toppo activated God ki. But SSG can fend him off however, and doesn't use as much energy as SSB. The moment that he runs into Toppo, Goku should know that SSJ2 is certainly not going to help him at all considering that Toppo outmatched Goku easily when he was SSJ 3. The best thing for Goku to do at this point, rather than be pummeled and weakened by Toppo because he trying to save energy, is transform SSG and fend him off at the expense of some energy, instead of letting Toppo hurt and injure him. .

Certainly we have no reason to believe that SSG would waste less energy than SSJ2, or even SSJ3 for that matter. Goku opted to use SSJ3 various times in the manga before SSG, if it were much less power consuming then he certainly would've skipped it. At the very least we have no reason to believe Goku would ever want to continue using such inefficient forms if he's better off just using SSG.

Yea I just bought that up in this comment.

[TheMikado]

Maybe I’m missing something but where in the manga does it say SSG is more efficient than SSJ1,2,or 3?

[Mister_Popo]

I think Jiren looks more spooky / creepy than in the anime. He has this coldheartedness in his eyes that gives him this flair of a really unbeatable and unmerciful adversary. There were times when he was drawn badass in the anime (notably under Takahashi / Shida during the final two episodes and the one-hour-special). But there were episodes he looked like a Disney- or Looney Tunes-figure too. I generally prefer the manga-version.

[Doctor.]

Did you stop reading the chapter after Hit got eliminated? Because right after that Goku explains that Jiren suckered Hit in and unleashed his true power to ring him out. Jiren had to use actual strategy because he couldn’t keep fighting through the time lag. He didn’t overpower or break the technique. Just as Toppo beat Goku by taking advantage of an opening, so did Jiren beat Hit.

No, Jiren used strategy to conserve his strength. If he could overpower the time lag when he eliminated Hit, he could have overpowered it the whole time. In fact, that's what's implied. He let Hit push him to the edge for an easy KO. He had no difficulty in dealing with the time lag at all like you're saying.

[Omniboy]

Maybe I’m missing something but where in the manga does it say SSG is more efficient than SSJ1,2,or 3?

It never says that. I think you may have misunderstood my comment, ( if that's what you are referring to.) But I meant that instead of trying to save energy while there is a powerful foe near you, use your far more powerful forms even if they use some energy, so you won't get hurt badly.

[TheMikado]

Maybe I’m missing something but where in the manga does it say SSG is more efficient than SSJ1,2,or 3?

It never says that. I think you may have misunderstood my comment, ( if that's what you are referring to.) But I meant that instead of trying to save energy while there is a powerful foe near you, use your far more powerful forms even if they use some energy, so you won't get hurt badly.

I guess I'm not understanding why this is specifically a Goku issue though. Hit confronts Jiren initially while still holding back, Jiren is holding back, we know Toppo is still holding back. Everyone is holding back and Goku wasn't in danger of getting ringed out or unable to defend himself. For whatever reason Toppo had him pinned but not taking a lot of damage. Goku wasn't even paying full attention to Toppo beating on him.

[LightBing]

Just one little minor thing here because I don't know how much of a difference it makes here. When Goku made this statement, he said in comparison to blue, that Super saiyan God was much more balanced. Maybe, this implies that there may be problems with Super Saiyan God, but I'm not sure.

You're right should have mentioned it. It might imply problems, however the "doesn't consume much energy either" is independent and not in comparison to Blue. The better point is how Vegeta used the form against Black while exploding into Blue and didn't tire one bit.
Toyotarõ put the form into the "saving up category" in the last arc, which is why Goku should have use it when fighting someone like Toppo.

I’ve said it numerous times and every time it’s been ignored. Regardless of how efficient SSG is, it’s still a higher super Saiyan form that puts out more power. You’re still gonna be burning more power in SSG than in SS2

That's head-canon. It's logically sound but cannot be proven because SSJ2 strain level is never mentioned from what I remember, contrary to SSG where it's said it doesn't spend much energy.

Regardless your argument is pedantic and it can easily be combated with more of the same. Why didn't Goku use SSJ or Base to save up even more energy? See my point?

[TKA]

That's head-canon. It's logically sound but cannot be proven because SSJ2 strain level is never mentioned from what I remember, contrary to SSG where it's said it doesn't spend much energy.

This is a story, not a guidebook. You're not going to have characters literally explain every basic thing to you that any reader paying attention should be able to pick up on. Inference is absolutely necessary when reading stories as authors simply cannot explain every little detail in their world. Not even Tolkien did.

We know for a fact that each progressive form of super saiyan eats up more ki than the previous form. We know Blue eats up more ki than God. We know God has been described multiple times as the level after Super Saiyan 3. This isn't a "2+2 = fish" case, this is "2+X=4".

Regardless your argument is pedantic and it can easily be combated with more of the same. Why didn't Goku use SSJ or Base to save up even more energy? See my point?

No, I don't see your point because the example you used is... shaky. The simple answer is Goku is fighting at SS2 because he deemed fighting at SS1 to be impossible given the level of his opponents. Things aren't binary: just because you're holding back doesn't mean you're going to lower your power level to 5.

[Omniboy]

Maybe I’m missing something but where in the manga does it say SSG is more efficient than SSJ1,2,or 3?

It never says that. I think you may have misunderstood my comment, ( if that's what you are referring to.) But I meant that instead of trying to save energy while there is a powerful foe near you, use your far more powerful forms even if they use some energy, so you won't get hurt badly.

I guess I'm not understanding why this is specifically a Goku issue though. Hit confronts Jiren initially while still holding back, Jiren is holding back, we know Toppo is still holding back. Everyone is holding back and Goku wasn't in danger of getting ringed out or unable to defend himself. For whatever reason Toppo had him pinned but not taking a lot of damage. Goku wasn't even paying full attention to Toppo beating on him.

But the thing is Goku was getting hurt. Right when Toppo is beating him Goku says that he running out of juice, and he is noticeably tired while Toppo is beating him. However, this could have been avoided if Goku went Super Saiyan God the moment he came across Toppo, since none of his other super saiyan forms can lay a scratch on him even when he is holding back. One thing you mentioned that I think is correct, is that Toppo himself is holding back. So why not surprise him the moment you encounter him, and knock him out of the way with super saiyan god quickly before Toppo himself uses God ki?

However the thing that I should clarify is that I don't think that this flaw in the chapter is that much of an issue really. It is small, and I still think that this chapter was fine. I'm probably making whole scenario sound worse than it actually is.