Attacks have become same-y

[Dragono]

The Mafuba stopped being "always fatal" in the arc where it was introduced. Tenshinhan survived after using it on Drum.

Sure, but he had the wind majorly kicked out of him, and prior to him trying it, the only people seen to use the wave were Roshi, and Mutaito, both of whom were very old when using it, while Tenshinhan was probably in or near his prime during the Piccolo arc. Plus, Tenshinhan is a somewhat avid user of the Kikoho, so he probably has a crazy resistance to this kind of thing.

Besides, I don't think it was necessarily introduced as being "Always fatal" anyway; just incredibly dangerous, and most likely fatal, which was usually delivered on.

man, you're bias is showing. Piccolo literally used that move flawlessly and suffered no consequences whatsoever in the 23rd Budokai, I don't care if it was to increase stakes, it was still rendered useless.


Which brings me to my next point against you and the original post, how often did these attacks actually work? What impact do they have when they accomplish nothing? Just to increase tension is not a good answer.

[Robo4900]

man, you're bias is showing. Piccolo literally used that move flawlessly and suffered no consequences whatsoever in the 23rd Budokai, I don't care if it was to increase stakes, it was still rendered useless.

If you actually paid attention and watched the show, he didn't. He used some sort of counter move to reverse it. We have no idea how that counter move works, only that it reverses the wave back at its user, and traps them inside the container instead. Since Piccolo seemed almost entirely unfazed, I would say it's more likely it uses the energy and such of the user who instigated the attack in the first place, though. Otherwise, Piccolo would have been majorly winded, and the reverse-Mafuba would be a pretty useless counter unless you're only fighting one person, and there's no chance of anyone attempting to attack you at all for the next several hours.

But, to be fair to you, God did still use the move against Piccolo... And then got imprisoned in a bottle for most of the rest of the arc, so we have no idea how bad his recovery was, just that by the time he was out, he was good enough to think and speak clearly, and appear fine. Given this time was IIRC a matter of a few days(Haven't seen this arc in a couple of years, but at the very least, it had to have been a good few hours, probably at least a day), this does work out.

Which brings me to my next point against you and the original post, how often did these attacks actually work? What impact do they have when they accomplish nothing? Just to increase tension is not a good answer.

I refer you to two of my earlier posts in this topic:

Again, though, it was always a red herring. Aside from the backstory of the technique, it never worked. Kame-Sennin missed, Piccolo blew up Tenshinhan's jar, Piccolo Junior reversed it, and this was all way before Super.

If anything, Super at least gave the Mafuba at least one win in the Tournament of Power. And Kame-Sennin was worn out by the technique. Goku and Trunks might not have been...but they were gajillions of times stronger than Roshi. I don't think anything "cheapened" the move, unless you consider the way the story had always used it to be cheapening it.

In the original story, the attack at least had some big consequences to it, and it ultimately mattered to the overall narrative. Roshi missing it killed him, Piccolo blowing up Tenshinhan's jar meant Tenshinhan was massively weakened, and probably would have died if not for Goku's interference, and it showed that while the technique worked once on Piccolo, he's already developing ways to circumvent it, and basically it all served to build up to the fact that ultimately, to beat Piccolo, someone(Goku) just has to face up to him, and kill him; Piccolo Jr. reversing it meant God was trapped in the vial, which he ate, which adds a ton of stakes to it all, and shows some depth of character from God...
And all this was done with a ton of build-up to the technique, it was massively talked up as being really dangerous, etc... The fact it failed isn't something that would cheapen it, if anything it makes it even cooler because Roshi put everything he had behind the technique, to the point where it killed him to use it, and he still didn't succeed at it.

In Super, it was just "oh jeez goku forgot the seal... man that goku..." so they improvised, but Zamasu still escaped... Ultimately, it was just a little diversion to give Goku, Trunks, and Bulma something to do so Vegeta can fight Black. One of many examples of Super doing something stupid for the sake of getting a "Big moment" that turns out to actually not be that big... (Yes, the Vegeta vs Black fight was pretty cool, but it wasn't anything earth-shattering, it was just... Pretty cool)

[In Super,] They'll bring back the Mafuba, but its cool, mystical backstory is disregarded, its fatal/near-fatal consequences are gone, and ultimately it doesn't factor into the story in any meaningful way; it just holds the villain back for an episode so Vegeta can fight the other villain for a bit.
The whole thing just lacks weight, importance, consequence, and understanding of why the stuff they're bringing back worked in the first place, which is quite surprising given how well they seemed to understand that for the Blue Kaioken thing, which got a whole episode devoted to the consequences thereof, which ended up being one of the strongest episodes from that string of between-arc material.

[Dragono]

man, you're bias is showing. Piccolo literally used that move flawlessly and suffered no consequences whatsoever in the 23rd Budokai, I don't care if it was to increase stakes, it was still rendered useless.

If you actually paid attention and watched the show, he didn't. He used some sort of counter move to reverse it. We have no idea how that counter move works, only that it reverses the wave back at its user, and traps them inside the container instead. Since Piccolo seemed almost entirely unfazed, I would say it's more likely it uses the energy and such of the user who instigated the attack in the first place, though. Otherwise, Piccolo would have been majorly winded, and the reverse-Mafuba would be a pretty useless counter unless you're only fighting one person, and there's no chance of anyone attempting to attack you at all for the next several hours.

But, to be fair to you, God did still use the move against Piccolo... And then got imprisoned in a bottle for most of the rest of the arc, so we have no idea how bad his recovery was, just that by the time he was out, he was good enough to think and speak clearly, and appear fine. Given this time was IIRC a matter of a few days(Haven't seen this arc in a couple of years, but at the very least, it had to have been a good few hours, probably at least a day), this does work out.

Which brings me to my next point against you and the original post, how often did these attacks actually work? What impact do they have when they accomplish nothing? Just to increase tension is not a good answer.

I refer you to two of my earlier posts in this topic:

Again, though, it was always a red herring. Aside from the backstory of the technique, it never worked. Kame-Sennin missed, Piccolo blew up Tenshinhan's jar, Piccolo Junior reversed it, and this was all way before Super.

If anything, Super at least gave the Mafuba at least one win in the Tournament of Power. And Kame-Sennin was worn out by the technique. Goku and Trunks might not have been...but they were gajillions of times stronger than Roshi. I don't think anything "cheapened" the move, unless you consider the way the story had always used it to be cheapening it.

In the original story, the attack at least had some big consequences to it, and it ultimately mattered to the overall narrative. Roshi missing it killed him, Piccolo blowing up Tenshinhan's jar meant Tenshinhan was massively weakened, and probably would have died if not for Goku's interference, and it showed that while the technique worked once on Piccolo, he's already developing ways to circumvent it, and basically it all served to build up to the fact that ultimately, to beat Piccolo, someone(Goku) just has to face up to him, and kill him; Piccolo Jr. reversing it meant God was trapped in the vial, which he ate, which adds a ton of stakes to it all, and shows some depth of character from God...
And all this was done with a ton of build-up to the technique, it was massively talked up as being really dangerous, etc... The fact it failed isn't something that would cheapen it, if anything it makes it even cooler because Roshi put everything he had behind the technique, to the point where it killed him to use it, and he still didn't succeed at it.

In Super, it was just "oh jeez goku forgot the seal... man that goku..." so they improvised, but Zamasu still escaped... Ultimately, it was just a little diversion to give Goku, Trunks, and Bulma something to do so Vegeta can fight Black. One of many examples of Super doing something stupid for the sake of getting a "Big moment" that turns out to actually not be that big... (Yes, the Vegeta vs Black fight was pretty cool, but it wasn't anything earth-shattering, it was just... Pretty cool)

[In Super,] They'll bring back the Mafuba, but its cool, mystical backstory is disregarded, its fatal/near-fatal consequences are gone, and ultimately it doesn't factor into the story in any meaningful way; it just holds the villain back for an episode so Vegeta can fight the other villain for a bit.
The whole thing just lacks weight, importance, consequence, and understanding of why the stuff they're bringing back worked in the first place, which is quite surprising given how well they seemed to understand that for the Blue Kaioken thing, which got a whole episode devoted to the consequences thereof, which ended up being one of the strongest episodes from that string of between-arc material.

What? How can you reverse a move, you never saw? Thats what people said when Frost did it on Vegeta.

[Robo4900]

What? How can you reverse a move, you never saw? Thats what people said when Frost did it on Vegeta.

He did see it. About four times. He was on the receiving end for all but one of those, even.

Granted, he was still King Piccolo at that time, but I think it's pretty certain that he inherited his predecessor's memories.

[KBABZ]

What? How can you reverse a move, you never saw? Thats what people said when Frost did it on Vegeta.

He did see it. About four times. He was on the receiving end for all but one of those, even.
Granted, he was still King Piccolo at that time, but I think it's pretty certain that he inherited his predecessor's memories.

In fact Jr. even says that he won't fall for "that same old trick again" right after reversing it, doesn't he? Goku himself learns how to do a surprisingly decent Kamehameha after only seeing it demonstrated once, so this isn't that much of a stretch after that.