Retcons: What are they?

[Pirina_Fusee]

Does the Ultra Divine Water actually existing count?

[Whatever]

How do we know there wasn't one?

Because it would be stated or noted that his power was increased,1 zenkai would be enough for him to trample King Piccolo and make the Water useless.

I honestly don't recall that moment.

Chapter 501-502(the reason i don't post is because of different translations but herms manga guide states the same).

During his fight with Vegeta, Goku wasn't giving Vegeta his full attention. Vegeta ended up stopping the fight because Goku wouldn't stop nagging him about Buu. Could Goku have beaten Vegeta quickly in Super Saiyan 3? Maybe. I think it's clear Goku was trying to turn Vegeta around, though.

Goku was saying he was serious about stopping him and even said he did not stand a chance against Buu.

As for changing from wanting to defeat Buu himself to wanting his kids to do it, it seems like he was pulling another Cell Games strategy. He realized that he could defeat Buu himself, as he's using Buu as a punching bag in SS3, but he didn't want his kids to get too complacent. He couldn't always be there to protect them. So he showed off his power to Buu and promised that someone stronger would come along. This gets Buu all excited, and he even agrees to postpone destroying everything until that mysterious strong person (Gotenks) appeared.

Its the total opposite of the Cell Games,in the Cell games he stepped down because he could not beat Cell.
Before he revealed that he had ssj3,Goku was expressing his desire to defeat Buu,even going as far as to say thats its a shame Vegeta and Gohan are dead because he wanted to do the fusion dance with them to beat Buu.

I think Goku could also sense the innocence in that Buu (I mean, jeez, how could one NOT know that killing is bad? lol) and hoped that he could be turned around. After all, Goku was the one who planted the idea in his head that he didn't have to let Babidi order him around. Both plans very nearly worked. Gotenks could have destroyed Buu if he didn't play around with him so much and allow himself to be absorbed. And Buu did turn to the good side, but then he split into two halves and his evil side won over.

No offense but thats a little too much reaching there,Buu turning good was not his plan at all(Gotenks was),the reason he said what he said was because he realised Buu is childish( Buu is the one of the very few people that are dumber than Goku after all).

[ABED]

Because it would be stated or noted that his power was increased,1 zenkai would be enough for him to trample King Piccolo and make the Water useless.

We don't know any of that. You just assume that one near death experience would be enough to make him stronger than Piccolo Daimao. There's no way to know that even before Piccolo's youth was restored.

After Goku defeated Piccolo at the tournament, his strength is a moot point since he won the fight. Nothing was retconned or contradicted.

Does the Ultra Divine Water actually existing count?

I think so, but I'd put it in the maybe pile.

[Logania]

A tricky situation is dealing with Bardock.

In the manga he's shown during his final confrontation with Freeza, like in the "Bardock, The Father of Goku" special, as he has Tora's headband which shows that it's based on the TV special events.

Yet years later Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball Minus, which covers Goku's origins and Bardock, where he doesn't have the headband, none of the events of the TV special happen or doesn't go to face Freeza (I know it can be up to interpretation on that situation)

Since both material is in the manga for Dragon Ball, the official source, would it be a retcon? A reveal? A rewrite?

[ABED]

The Beerus avatar reminded me that Freeza's reasons for destroying Planet Vegeta were retconned. Originally it was because he fears the Saiyans, more specifically a Super Saiyan eventually rising up. Now it's because Beerus told him to.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The Beerus avatar reminded me that Freeza's reasons for destroying Planet Vegeta were retconned. Originally it was because he fears the Saiyans, more specifically a Super Saiyan eventually rising up. Now it's because Beerus told him to.

That one's not entirely a retcon, though, since Beerus merely suggested it if I recall correctly.

[ABED]

Did he suggest it or "suggest" it?

[Logania]

It's gonna be retold in the next series.

"Our home planet was destroyed by a giant meteor."

"No, our planet was destroyed by Freeza because he feared the potential of the Saiyans!"

"No! our planet was destroyed because Beerus wanted Freeza to destroy it."

"Well actually-"

[Forte224]

I didn't realize it needed explaining honestly, but yeah:

Reveal=New information
Retcon=New information that contradicts, ignores, or adjusts previously established information

To put it as simply as possible. The thing about the potara fusion only lasting an hour in Super, while I definitely agree it's a retcon, couldn't the argument be made that it isn't, since even way back in Z, Goku and Vegeta never really understood why the fusion ended? Of course, the focus is specifically on the fact that once their barrier went down it ended and maybe had to do with the air Boo's body, but it still never gets a full explanation as to why it happened. Goku assumes it's the air in Boo's body, but no one ever confirms that.

I personally assumed that it was Buu's body trying to digest Vegito, resulting in their fusion being broken down to its simpler parts (Goku and Vegeta). But yeah, it was left open to interpretation. I still have a few problems with it, though:

• 1. The Elder Kai didn't know how the Potara Rings worked on mortals. You'd think that a kai with as much experience as he would know how his Potara Rings work.
  
  2. The change in Super wasn't necessary. If the concern was that they didn't want Vegito to be permanent, they could have just used either the Earth or Namekian Dragon Balls to defuse later.
  
  3. Putting a time limit on Potara Fusion makes it virtually identical to Metamoran Fusion, even down to the detail of powerful transformations shortening its time limit. It's essentially the same thing, except without a dance to activate it.

I think the only issue they ran into when it came to using the Dragon Balls to undo the fusion is that they didn't want Vegetto to finish the fight. They wanted it to be Goku, Vegeta and Trunks left completely helpless, with Trunks coming in to land the finishing (except not really) blow. Vegetto humiliating his opponent and then blowing him up is a sort of lacking conclusion, whether it's the Boo arc or the Zamasu arc. I'm assuming they retconned the "Potara=endless fusion" in both instances for that very reason.

[KBABZ]

Does the Ultra Divine Water actually existing count?

I think so, but I'd put it in the maybe pile.

I disagree, wasn't it given a different name from the water Goku was trying to get the first time around? Sacred Water, right?

[ABED]

It was a different water, but you could easily make the argument that if Toriyama did decide it from the beginning that there was an actual water that increases the drinker's power, Karin wouldn't have acted like he didn't.

The Super Spirit water was the tap water. The Super Sacred Water was the water that grants the drinker more power.

[KBABZ]

It was a different water, but you could easily make the argument that if Toriyama did decide it from the beginning that there was an actual water that increases the drinker's power, Karin wouldn't have acted like he didn't.

The Super Spirit water was the tap water. The Super Sacred Water was the water that grants the drinker more power.

True but the second one of those happens to have killed anyone who drank it. Korin isn't really in the business of killing twelve year olds and he had no reason to think Goku would survive it at that time. Daimao provided the need to give it a try and Goku had more than proved himself of having the potential to live through it, so Korin proposed it.

[MasenkoHA]

To be clear we're defining a retcon as anything that was actively contradicted with later information (such as how Planet Vegeta met its end) while a reveal is something that was revealed later on to us that may or may not have been pulled out Toriyama's/Toei's ass but didn't "technically" contradict anything (Goku isn't a weird monkey boy he's an alien).

Is that right?

[KBABZ]

For me Retcons are particularly obvious in their re-write-ed-ness of established information, in comparison to Twists and Reveals. For example, Frieza having destroyed Planet Vegeta I personally don't count because it's executed well in the story. A retcon to me would be more like how Tien is apparently an alien when before we've always assumed he was just a weird human earthling.

[MasenkoHA]

For example, Frieza having destroyed Planet Vegeta I personally don't count because it's executed well in the story. A retcon to me would be more like how Tien is apparently an alien when before we've always assumed he was just a weird human earthling.

Would you consider Piccolo going from being a demon to being an alien a retcon or a "reveal?"

[KBABZ]

For example, Frieza having destroyed Planet Vegeta I personally don't count because it's executed well in the story. A retcon to me would be more like how Tien is apparently an alien when before we've always assumed he was just a weird human earthling.

Would you consider Piccolo going from being a demon to being an alien a retcon or a "reveal?"

Kinda both. It redefines how we look at the characters (remember Kami!) and spending time on Namek certainly helps contextualize it. At the same time we've been outright told that Piccolo was a demon and Kami's own origins weren't even an issue until that point, so at first blush it comes off as a major "Uhhh... WHAT?" moment. Almost like Piccolo being a demon didn't fit with the science fiction angle coming up so it was adjusted alongside the removal of other mystical elements such as Kinto'un and Nyoi-bo.

[ABED]

It doesn't contradict anything since aliens can be demons as well. In this case it was an alien who dispelled the evil from his body. I would argue it's more of a reveal. The mystical and the scifi elements can coexist. Piccolo being an alien doesn't make him any less of a demon.

Korin isn't really in the business of killing twelve year olds and he had no reason to think Goku would survive it at that time. Daimao provided the need to give it a try and Goku had more than proved himself of having the potential to live through it, so Korin proposed it.

I get that but there's no reason to hold back that sort of information from anyone. He could easily say, "Yeah, that's tap water, the real stuff is too dangerous." Far too often stories pull this sort of thing and the rationale is pretty much always, "I lie to protect you."

To be clear we're defining a retcon as anything that was actively contradicted with later information (such as how Planet Vegeta met its end) while a reveal is something that was revealed later on to us that may or may not have been pulled out Toriyama's/Toei's ass but didn't "technically" contradict anything (Goku isn't a weird monkey boy he's an alien).

Is that right?

More or less. A reveal is giving the audience information they didn't know. A retcon overwrites existing information. It's like the author is saying to the audience, "Didn't you know it was there the whole time?"

[KBABZ]

we're defining a retcon as anything that was actively contradicted with later information (such as how Planet Vegeta met its end) while a reveal is something that was revealed later on to us that may or may not have been pulled out Toriyama's/Toei's ass but didn't "technically" contradict anything (Goku isn't a weird monkey boy he's an alien).

Is that right?

More or less. A reveal is giving the audience information they didn't know. A retcon overwrites existing information. It's like the author is saying to the audience, "Didn't you know it was there the whole time?"[/quote]
Again I feel like there's a bit more to Retcon than that. For me at least, Retcons carry an air of the author trying to "fix" something about established information, or some other negative connotation. They differ from reveals and twists which tend to have more believable and gracefully-told justifications, such as Frieza being the destroyer of Vegeta and not a meteor, as opposed to Tien being an alien.

[Kunzait_83]

It doesn't contradict anything since aliens can be demons as well. In this case it was an alien who dispelled the evil from his body. I would argue it's more of a reveal. The mystical and the scifi elements can coexist. Piccolo being an alien doesn't make him any less of a demon.

This. The reveal of Piccolo's Namekian origins doesn't really change much of anything about anything we were already told about him previously. The original Son of Katatsu who came to Earth was a Namekian. When that being became Kami and divided itself, the two halves are still a god and a demon respectively and are regarded as such by the story's in-universe spiritual laws, despite still looking like a Namekian.

Within the very same storyline that revealed their Namekian origins (the Saiya-jin arc) we were also told all about how Piccolo in his Daimao incarnation would send souls to limbo upon killing them as opposed to King Enma's gates due to his being a (Eastern) demon, and is no longer such upon his rebirth as Ma Junior. Even within the same arc that gave us the Namekian origins the whole mystical/Buddhist Demon angle is far from dropped, but rather expanded upon further (using actual details about IRL Buddhist mythology no less).

Its one of my big pet peeves when people use this as a means of saying "Dragon Ball becomes more sci fi than fantasy in Z because it dropped Piccolo's mystical origins". It does nothing of the sort: the mystical origins aren't dropped, they're fully retained (and even further brought up again later on in the Cell arc when Kami and Piccolo re-merge): the mysticism is simply just combined along with the sci fi flourishes. Both co-exist at the same time, and within the same storyline in which the sci fi component is introduced to begin with.

Despite originally coming from another planet, Kami is still god of Earth and still created the Dragon Balls with mysticism. Piccolo Daimao is still a demon and still has mystical abilities of his own (like spawning demonic underlings and being able to reincarnate himself). In no way does the story say "Yeah no, we were wrong, Kami isn't a god and Piccolo was never really a demon, we just made those assumptions because of how they looked" or anything to that effect. THAT would be a "retcon" in the true sense. As it stands, this is unquestionably a reveal that simply adds new information to still-retained (and still relevant) pre-existing information. Nothing is overwritten or overridden.

Again I feel like there's a bit more to Retcon than that. For me at least, Retcons carry an air of the author trying to "fix" something about established information, or some other negative connotation. They differ from reveals and twists which tend to have more believable and gracefully-told justifications, such as Frieza being the destroyer of Vegeta and not a meteor, as opposed to Tien being an alien.

Except that's still not what the definition of a retcon is. How well handled something is in the writing has no bearing whatsoever on what is a retcon and what is a reveal/twist. There are clear-cut definitions to these terms: a retcon is the overriding of previously established information with a wholesale alteration of that previously-established info. This can be handled gracefully (Freeza destroying Planet Vegeta with the meteor thing used as a cover story) or not-so-gracefully (Beerus actually being the one who convinced Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta rather than Freeza simply doing it on his own out of his own fear of the Saiya-jin's constanly growing power): but in either case, both are retcons in that "what we already told you previously wasn't actually so".

A twist or a reveal is simply the addition of new information that co-exists and coincides with previously understood information. "Goku was an alien the whole time" is a reveal/twist and not a retcon, because we were NEVER told what Goku's origins were beforehand: they were kept deliberately unexplained and mysterious. Then when Raditz lands, we finally get a concrete explanation. That's not a retcon: that's a reveal. Had we been already told what the origins of Goku's wereape were in prior original DB arcs, and suddenly along comes Raditz with this extraterrestrial reasoning that totally upends and overrides what we were told previously... THEN it would be a retcon.

The origins of the Dragon Balls are only in a very, very mild gray area insofar as anime filler goes: the original anime-filler explanation of the DB's origins that Muten Roshi lays down were at least given the forward-thinking hedge of having Muten Roshi say up front "this is just one of many different stories and legends that have been told about them, take it with a grain of salt". Also, its anime-filler: the manga is hardly obligated to be beholden to it. Taken in context of the anime, its certainly a retcon, but its one that's very well handled because at least the anime writers from earlier had enough foresight to leave themselves a very clear "out" when they originally wrote that scene.

Conversely, the whole Dr. Frappe and Dr. Gero discrepancy is never in any way explicitly dealt with in the anime, but that at least has a very clear and obvious fanwank (Frappe was somehow blackmailed and forced to help Gero design Hatchan; probably using his daughter) left wide open in there that almost just about anyone can figure out for themselves plainly from a mile away. Something like the whole thing with 19 and 20 suddenly becoming 17 and 18 (to the point of needing a dialogue adjustment for later manga releases), THAT'S something that was just clearly sloppily handled by Toriyama and is about as naked and clumsily handled a retcon as any you'll find.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter all that much as to the elegance (or lack thereof) in how these plot points are handled, and believably ultimately has little to no actual bearing on whether or not something constitutes a retcon or a plot twist: these are terms with fairly clear and (much more often than not) relatively simple to grasp definitions, and personal opinion as to how well they're handled by the narrative/writing is no more a factor with them than it is with, say for example, determining whether or not a specific plot device is considered a "MacGuffin" and suchlike.

I personally think that Vegeta, for example, makes for an awkwardly-handled anti-hero for much of the Cell arc: that doesn't mean that I'm therefore gonna argue that he's somehow not an "actual" example of an anti-hero in that arc simply because I don't personally care for how he was handled at certain junctures of the plot.

Same goes for things like the alien origins of characters like Goku and Piccolo (to go back to those for an example): you can like or not like those story twists all you want, and that's fine: but they're still ultimately story twists rather than retcons regardless of one's personal feelings for them. Same goes for something like the Potara Fusion now having a time limit on mortals: that's a retcon, regardless of how well one might personally consider it to have been handled by the writing.

The main "exception" to the "what we told you before wasn't actually the case" definition for a retcon is if that explanation was already planned out well in advance (doubly so if there were "clues" left behind that foreshadow that development): in THAT case, a plot point where "everything we told you before was a lie" would be a twist/reveal rather than a retcon, due to the pre-planned nature of it. But that's the exception.

[ABED]

both are retcons in that "what we already told you previously wasn't actually so".

I would put a qualifier on that. Sometimes writers will intentionally plant information early in a story to mislead an audience. For instance, a character is told 1 version of events only to discover that they were wrong.

A retcon is when information given to the audience and the characters was at the time of its writing was earnest.

Edit: Nevermind, you already made that point at the end.