Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

If the new dokkan awakened jiren event is anything to go by, full power jiren is NOT shirtless jiren, but the jiren that created the HUGE overheating magnetron that MUI goku slapped out of existence. Which means that in all likelyhood, shirtless jiren is indeed a power jiren first awakened in the tournament of power, which would get him FAAAAR above his hakaishin.

[brett wheeler]

That's what I'm banking on, considering just how many jarring inconsistencies there have been with Piccolo's strength in the show.

I honestly don't understand this weird obsession with people wanting Tagoma to be strong. His power is never portrayed to be particularly threatening except in comparison to an extremely rusty Gohan, who was on two separate occasions implied to be weaker than he was during the Cell arc, and Piccolo. Then he's just casually one-shotted by a Super Saiyan Gotenks.

honestly I dont think tagoma is as powerful as people made him, but I think he probably is a good match for super perfect cell, hear me out here, gohan was rusty sure but you have to think about how strong he was in the buu saga and BoG ( not counting ultimate obviously ), in the buu saga they commented that gohan had surpassed ssj2 goku and vegeta before he went ultimate and while he was still in base, by this we can say its possible base gohan was above ssj2 goku and vegeta, ok so if he was that strong ( probably a little weaker ) in BoG even if he lost a good chunk of power ( witch was implied ), his ssj state should still be more than enough to take out a super perfect cell lvl worrier, this goes nicely with him being above piccolo ( someone who is comparable to perfect cell ) but below the likes of gotenks without retconning anyones power, this also makes sense for why they commented base gohan was the strongest person there even tho they didnt know he had ssj and was just assuming off his base state, honestly this whole arc is the most inconsistent out of any but if you want to make sense of it at all this is the best way, lastly gohan probably just couldnt maintain ssj because he hasnt used it in so long ( even in the 7 year time skip from cell to buu it was said he used it a lot so ofcourse he wouldnt be rusty whil in this arc he hasnt used it in atleast a year and a half ).

I don't think it was stated Gohan became stronger than ssj2 Goku and Vegeta from the Z sword training. And even if that was the case he was ssj1 when fighting Tagoma, not ssj2. If it was a rusty ssj2 Goku that beat him I would say around perfect Cell level would make sense, but since it's rusty ssj1, I would say semi perfect Cell to Cell jr. range max.

I cant remember when or if was anime filler or not, all I know is this is the only way to make sense of it. I will agree togoma could have been cell jr. level, but then again that would mean piccolo hasn't improved over all this time ( witch has been stated to not be true by toriyama who said piccolo is always training ), also this wouldn't make much sense when togoma says gohan was the strongest there, without knowing he could go ssj, lastly even if gohan was just slightly under togoma in terms of strength, if togoma can man handle piccolo like that and just barely above gohan ( witch gohan stated to be the case ), then gohan base would be a good chunk over semi perfect cell at least and hiss ssj form ( witch one shot togoma ) would be well above all cell arc characters, hell it would be in the range of ssj3 goku at that point. I just think I'm going to agree with the idea they just forgot how strong most these characters where and just wanted to make the story cool looking.

[ankokudaishogun]

If the new dokkan awakened jiren event is anything to go by, full power jiren is NOT shirtless jiren, but the jiren that created the HUGE overheating magnetron that MUI goku slapped out of existence. Which means that in all likelyhood, shirtless jiren is indeed a power jiren first awakened in the tournament of power, which would get him FAAAAR above his hakaishin.

We did know that.
Shirtless Jiren is Limit Break Jiren: he was triggered so hard he broke his limits getting out all his hidden strength.
It was stated in the anime.

So, yeah, in the event it took Full Power Jiren to defeat Bermod(and from how things are portrayed, I do believe this is NOT the case and Jiren didn't have to use his Full Power against his GoD), Limit Break Jiren is basically a GoD to Bermod's SS3

[Bullza]

Based off of performance against Piccolo Tagoma looks stronger than final form Frost.

Could he not be stronger than Frost?

[dragon boss z]

I will agree togoma could have been cell jr. level, but then again that would mean piccolo hasn't improved over all this time ( witch has been stated to not be true by toriyama who said piccolo is always training ),

Dabura treated Piccolo like fodder as well in the Buu arc and Toriyama tends to say things off the top of his head and retconn things. In Super we pretty much only saw Piccolo babysitting and stalking Gohan. We only saw him start training again after RoF. Not saying he stopped training though.

I just think I'm going to agree with the idea they just forgot how strong most these characters where and just wanted to make the story cool looking.

99% chance this is it. I mean these are the same people who had Frieza say he would achieve a power level of 1.3 million after 4 months even though he already said his power level was over 1 million in his second form (it's even in the title of one of the episodes). I really wouldn't be surprised if that number came from Toriyama himself, since the movie was inspired by the song F which says Frieza's power level is 530,000.

Based off of performance against Piccolo Tagoma looks stronger than final form Frost.

Could he not be stronger than Frost?

I mean technically it's possible, but I highly doubt that's supposed to be the case. Goku and Vegeta went ssj on Frost, while Vegeta casually oneshot Tagoma/Ginyu in base. Piccolo was just completely nerfed that arc it seems. Piccolo having trouble with a Frieza soldier didn't happen in Toyoyaro's version so I'm assuming that was an anime staff decision that Toyotaro realized made no sense so he took out the part of Piccolo having trouble with Shisami. Gohan still went ssj, but like everyone mentioned that arc, he was supposed to be weak.

[ZombieVito]

I don't think Tagoma would have to be as strong as Cell at his best or anything but if he can effortlessly one shot Piccolo (and that's before Ginyu took over) then he's probably far stronger than any Cell Jr.

A rusty SS Gohan beat him in two hits so at best I would have him at the level of suppressed Perfect Cell or SS Goku during the Cell games.

[Kenneth La Torre]

If the new dokkan awakened jiren event is anything to go by, full power jiren is NOT shirtless jiren, but the jiren that created the HUGE overheating magnetron that MUI goku slapped out of existence. Which means that in all likelyhood, shirtless jiren is indeed a power jiren first awakened in the tournament of power, which would get him FAAAAR above his hakaishin.

We did know that.
Shirtless Jiren is Limit Break Jiren: he was triggered so hard he broke his limits getting out all his hidden strength.
It was stated in the anime.

So, yeah, in the event it took Full Power Jiren to defeat Bermod(and from how things are portrayed, I do believe this is NOT the case and Jiren didn't have to use his Full Power against his GoD), Limit Break Jiren is basically a GoD to Bermod's SS3

I never doubted that his full power was before he went shirtless. But some people believe that jiren only went full power when he ripped his shirt, and it wasnt a limit breaker. So far it point

[Kenneth La Torre]

So far it points to jiren breaking his limits (sorry for double posting, i cant seem to edit my posts)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, with power that may even surpass that of a Hakaishin, Jiren still got ABSOLUTELY WRECKED by Ultra Instinct Goku.

I think this is more than enough evidence to reasonably say that Goku and Jiren have far surpassed Beerus, even if it's not permanently.

It fits the mould; Goku tends to just surpass his old benchmarks without any fanfare or notable remarks.

[Kenneth La Torre]

To think that goku surpassed the hakaishins for literally a minute... same can be said for jiren, tho is never made clear whether jiren kept that hidden power of his, maybe its like gokus and he cant willingly access it.

[brett wheeler]

so everybody seems to relize now that FP jiren was when he fired at UI omen goku and MUI smack it away like nothing, so now that we realize this how far do you think goku and jiren where above the hakiashins, secondly how close to angel level you think they got, in all honesty the gods where dumb founded at goku MUI vs jiren LB, while the angels just treated it as a casual spectica, so they where obviously in between the 2, but witch ones do you think they were closer to, I personaly think GoDs but how far are the angels are from the gods then, if jiren at FP ( not shirtless ) is above his own GoD and assuming all gods are close in power ( some weaker and some stronger but alll relatively close ), how much of a gap is there between the GoDs and MUI/jiren LB and how far away are the angels from that.

[Miracles]

Anyone who paid attention to the story knew full power Jiren was the Jiren that MUI Goku fought. One of the Kaioshin's stated such.

[brett wheeler]

Anyone who paid attention to the story knew full power Jiren was the Jiren that MUI Goku fought. One of the Kaioshin's stated such.

yea dont know why people dont seem to understand, FP jiren and shirtless limit breaking jiren are different, also what youre referring to was the kaioshin at the beginning of the fight wondering how FP jiren would fare against MUI goku, any way point was people are really not that observant ( sometimes lol ).

[SayianBeyondGod]

Goku surpassing Jiren doesn't imply he surpassed Beerus. Where is evidence of belmod and Beerus being on pair? If anything Beerus seems to be in another league due to being much more older hence experience than belmod, so this kind of scaling is wrong. I don't completely buy Jiren in late of episode 129 being full power because a kai from another universe says so. Jiren shirtless from episode 130 seem to be just a power up according to the spoilers. If anything WOG statements should be more credible than a character statement which is proved to be not always credible throughout the series.

Another note is people should stop calling the form MUI since that's not the official name nor we know he mastered ultra instinct. Most sources call it just ultra instinct while differentiating the prior inferior version as ultra instinct omen.

[JazzMazz]

Goku surpassing Jiren doesn't imply he surpassed Beerus. Where is evidence of belmod and Beerus being on pair? If anything Beerus seems to be in another league due to being much more older hence experience than belmod, so this kind of scaling is wrong. I don't completely buy Jiren in late of episode 129 being full power because a kai from another universe says so. Jiren shirtless from episode 130 seem to be just a power up according to the spoilers. If anything WOG statements should be more credible than a character statement which is proved to be not always credible throughout the series.

What necessarily contradicts Jiren using his full power in 129 and the beginning of the 130 though?

They make it explicitly clear that Jiren's power-up in 130 was an improvement over his previous full power, so I don't see why its so hard to believe he was using his full power in 129(especially since it was consistent with what happened at the beginning of 130).

[SayianBeyondGod]

Goku surpassing Jiren doesn't imply he surpassed Beerus. Where is evidence of belmod and Beerus being on pair? If anything Beerus seems to be in another league due to being much more older hence experience than belmod, so this kind of scaling is wrong. I don't completely buy Jiren in late of episode 129 being full power because a kai from another universe says so. Jiren shirtless from episode 130 seem to be just a power up according to the spoilers. If anything WOG statements should be more credible than a character statement which is proved to be not always credible throughout the series.

What necessarily contradicts Jiren using his full power in 129 and the beginning of the 130 though?

They make it explicitly clear that Jiren's power-up in 130 was an improvement over his previous full power, so I don't see why its so hard to believe he was using his full power in 129(especially since it was consistent with what happened at the beginning of 130).

I see Jiren shirtless being just a power up than a limit breaker just like how the spoilers described. Only a supreme Kai from another universe said Jiren was at fullpower though I don't know why that needs to be taken with 100% credibility over a word of god statement.

[JazzMazz]

Goku surpassing Jiren doesn't imply he surpassed Beerus. Where is evidence of belmod and Beerus being on pair? If anything Beerus seems to be in another league due to being much more older hence experience than belmod, so this kind of scaling is wrong. I don't completely buy Jiren in late of episode 129 being full power because a kai from another universe says so. Jiren shirtless from episode 130 seem to be just a power up according to the spoilers. If anything WOG statements should be more credible than a character statement which is proved to be not always credible throughout the series.

What necessarily contradicts Jiren using his full power in 129 and the beginning of the 130 though?

They make it explicitly clear that Jiren's power-up in 130 was an improvement over his previous full power, so I don't see why its so hard to believe he was using his full power in 129(especially since it was consistent with what happened at the beginning of 130).

I see Jiren shirtless being just a power up than a limit breaker just like how the spoilers described. Only a supreme Kai from another universe said Jiren was at fullpower though I don't know why that needs to be taken with 100% credibility over a word of god statement.

Yeah, but he still increased his original full power, which is kind of pointed out by Goku in 131, where he states that both of them got stronger during the fight.

[SayianBeyondGod]

What necessarily contradicts Jiren using his full power in 129 and the beginning of the 130 though?

They make it explicitly clear that Jiren's power-up in 130 was an improvement over his previous full power, so I don't see why its so hard to believe he was using his full power in 129(especially since it was consistent with what happened at the beginning of 130).

I see Jiren shirtless being just a power up than a limit breaker just like how the spoilers described. Only a supreme Kai from another universe said Jiren was at fullpower though I don't know why that needs to be taken with 100% credibility over a word of god statement.

Yeah, but he still increased his original full power, which is kind of pointed out by Goku in 131, where he states that both of them got stronger during the fight.

When was this stated?

[JazzMazz]

I see Jiren shirtless being just a power up than a limit breaker just like how the spoilers described. Only a supreme Kai from another universe said Jiren was at fullpower though I don't know why that needs to be taken with 100% credibility over a word of god statement.

Yeah, but he still increased his original full power, which is kind of pointed out by Goku in 131, where he states that both of them got stronger during the fight.

When was this stated?

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Its certainly not a vague statement, but I think its more reliable than the otherwise unreliable, or inaccurate spoilers have proven.

[namekiansaiyan]

Yeah, but he still increased his original full power, which is kind of pointed out by Goku in 131, where he states that both of them got stronger during the fight.

When was this stated?

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Its certainly not a vague statement, but I think its more reliable than the otherwise unreliable, or inaccurate spoilers have proven.

I see Jiren's power up similar to Gohan getting back his Ultimate form. Jiren couldn't actually access his true 100% just like Gohan.

Goku's was him going past 100% so was a limit breaker.