Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

It shouldn't be taken as the gospel truth or anything but it's accurate enough that you can tell that some thought went into it. I don't care if all the numbers are exactly in line with each other and I don't particularly care how the numbers stack up to characters from Z, GT or Heroes as that's just added headache.

Just the general idea of where the Super characters compare amongst each other is the interesting part.

Some characters are up in the air anyway. Ultimate Gohan we knew was above Super Saiyan 2 Goku and below Super Saiyan Blue Goku. According to the sticker he'd be below Super Saiyan God which nothing contradicts I don't think. Android 17 they've got just slightly above Super Saiyan 3 which did seem to fit with the manga as well. So maybe these power jumps aren't as drastic as they seem to be.

I've gone through as many of these stickers as I can find and this is the order they seem to put them in.

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu / Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta / Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku
God of Destruction Toppo
Super Saiyan (2?) Kefla
Toppo
Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Golden Frieza / Hit / Dyspo
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta / Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Super Saiyan God Goku
Aniraza
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Final Form Frieza
Base Goku Black
Android 17
Super Saiyan Cabba
Super Saiyan (?) Goku
Good Buu / Ribrianne (Butterfly)
Piccolo
Zamasu
Ribrianne
Base Future Trunks / Base Caulifla
Base Kale

Worth noting that another card has Toppo as the same as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, another card has Dyspo below Super Saiyan God and another card has Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta actually below Super Saiyan God Goku so you really need to compare set by set for the most accuracy I imagine.

It's pretty accurate for the most part. I'd low Kaioken Goku a couple places. Toppo, Golden Frieza and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta should really all be the same. Aniraza should be higher than all them. Swap Goku and Cabba. Zamasu should be a bit higher. Ribrianne a bit lower. Base Goku Black should be higher.

But yeah not too off.

[SayianBeyondGod]

https://ibb.co/jMsveS
Anilaza, with a laughable 7500 attack power compared to the ither fighters.

Could be prior to having his wings and power up but looking at this cards more I realized UI omen and SSBE are on pair.

[SayianBeyondGod]

It shouldn't be taken as the gospel truth or anything but it's accurate enough that you can tell that some thought went into it. I don't care if all the numbers are exactly in line with each other and I don't particularly care how the numbers stack up to characters from Z, GT or Heroes as that's just added headache.

Just the general idea of where the Super characters compare amongst each other is the interesting part.

Some characters are up in the air anyway. Ultimate Gohan we knew was above Super Saiyan 2 Goku and below Super Saiyan Blue Goku. According to the sticker he'd be below Super Saiyan God which nothing contradicts I don't think. Android 17 they've got just slightly above Super Saiyan 3 which did seem to fit with the manga as well. So maybe these power jumps aren't as drastic as they seem to be.

I've gone through as many of these stickers as I can find and this is the order they seem to put them in.

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu / Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta / Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku
God of Destruction Toppo
Super Saiyan (2?) Kefla
Toppo
Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Golden Frieza / Hit / Dyspo
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta / Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Super Saiyan God Goku
Aniraza
Ultimate Gohan
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Final Form Frieza
Base Goku Black
Android 17
Super Saiyan Cabba
Super Saiyan (?) Goku
Good Buu / Ribrianne (Butterfly)
Piccolo
Zamasu
Ribrianne
Base Future Trunks / Base Caulifla
Base Kale

Worth noting that another card has Toppo as the same as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, another card has Dyspo below Super Saiyan God and another card has Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta actually below Super Saiyan God Goku so you really need to compare set by set for the most accuracy I imagine.

It's pretty accurate for the most part. I'd low Kaioken Goku a couple places. Toppo, Golden Frieza and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta should really all be the same. Aniraza should be higher than all them. Swap Goku and Cabba. Zamasu should be a bit higher. Ribrianne a bit lower. Base Goku Black should be higher.

But yeah not too off.

Isn't Vegeta 8800 hence higher than Blue Goku?



Also GoD Toppo seem to be 8900 so I don't think SSBKK is higher.

[JazzMazz]

Their are multiple versions of some cards for some characters, with different numbers, so I think that's something to take into account.

Could you guys maybe gather up all the character variations(say for SSB Vegeta) and put them in a single post?

Thanks.

[SayianBeyondGod]

If we were to compare different sets we should do so by scaling the character rather than numbers. For example in set A blue Vegeta is stronger than Gohan, but in set B Blue Goku is on pair with Blue Vegeta. Hence Blue Goku is above Gohan.

[Bullza]

Oh yeah you're right, Kaioken Goku is actually in between Kefla and God Toppo.

I have no idea why that Vegeta one is so high. As high as Kefla?

[JazzMazz]

Here's a collation of every single image that I could find for the card decks(Some cards may be repeated or shown more than once).
[spoiler]https://mobile.twitter.com/MsDBZbabe/st ... 44/photo/2
https://mobile.twitter.com/MsDBZbabe/st ... 44/photo/3
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What does it say about SS Gohan?




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I'm missing a huge amount, but these are just the ones I managed to rummage together for reference.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Oh yeah you're right, Kaioken Goku is actually in between Kefla and God Toppo.

I have no idea why that Vegeta one is so high. As high as Kefla?

Well Vegeta did fight Jiren that was stated to have the strongest kicked he felt(we know he was sensing kefla prior) and knocked down Jiren with the final flash which worried everyone despite witnessing Jiren blink the spirit bomb. I always had the notion the Kefla is more comparable to SSBKK Goku prior to his Zenkais and blue Vegeta was ahead due to fighting base Toppo and training much more in the spirit of time.

[Hugo Boss]

What does it say about SS Gohan?

His number is 4800, which seems consistent with Piccolo beating him with 5000.

[Marlowe89]

If we were to compare different sets we should do so by scaling the character rather than numbers. For example in set A blue Vegeta is stronger than Gohan, but in set B Blue Goku is on pair with Blue Vegeta. Hence Blue Goku is above Gohan.

That's what I think they were going for anyway. The numbers themselves aren't important and are sometimes adjusted in later sets, they're just a point of reference to show how different characters compare.

I have no idea why that Vegeta one is so high. As high as Kefla?

My guess is that they were trying to give Vegeta an equivalent state to Blue Kaioken Goku, since they both have a level of "8800". In the set just prior to that one, SSB Vegeta has a level of "8000" which is more reasonable.

I also just noticed that every card has a description of some sort on the back, so that's a whole other rabbit hole to potentially dive into.

[JazzMazz]

If we were to compare different sets we should do so by scaling the character rather than numbers. For example in set A blue Vegeta is stronger than Gohan, but in set B Blue Goku is on pair with Blue Vegeta. Hence Blue Goku is above Gohan.

That's what I think they were going for anyway. The numbers themselves aren't important, they're just a point of reference to show how different characters compare within a specific set.

I have no idea why that Vegeta one is so high. As high as Kefla?

My guess is that they were trying to give Vegeta an equivalent state to Blue Kaioken Goku, since they both have a level of "8800". In the set just prior to that one, SSB Vegeta has a level of "8000" which is more reasonable.

From what I've seen, Vegeta Blue specifically has a hugely varying level of attack power in the cards.

Unless I'm forgetting something his cards as blue are;7500, 8000, 8500 and 8800(I may have missed a card where his value was 8300, since there is a Goku with 8300 power).
Either way, there is usually a lot of variation inbetween cards with the same character and form on attack power.

[Bullza]

So does this do anything to suggest there was a retcon that brought the Base Saiyans down?

The stickers seem to suggest so. Good Buu has a higher rating than Piccolo and Super Saiyan Gohan. Of course Super Saiyan Gohan did match Super Saiyan Goku before this but some think he was just playing about.

But they also have Good Buu and Piccolo above Base Caulifla and Future Trunks who should be on the same level as Base Goku.

[Zamasu55]

Is this a joke? SsjR Black stronger than Genki-sword Trunks?

Apparently it's just supposed to be Super Saiyan Rage Trunks. There's another sticker without him welding the sword that has the same Power Level.

If that's the case then it makes sense.

He pushed Merged Zamasu's Holy Wrath even before Genki-sword. Still makes no damn sense.

[Hugo Boss]

So does this do anything to suggest there was a retcon that brought the Base Saiyans down?

Most of the stickers that have Base Goku and Base Vegeta with the number of 4000 are from Majin Boo Arc sets. I have still not found one that depicts their strength after they trained with Whis (I mean: normal, SS, SS2 and SS3).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, I'd just stick to what stickers are used, rather than try to extrapolate potential power comparisons from the numbers used.

For example, how different levels of a character are treated separately; examples include Jiren's separation into a "full-power" sticker and a "shirtless power" sticker.

[Marlowe89]

I have still not found one that depicts their strength after they trained with Whis (I mean: normal, SS, SS2 and SS3).

JazzMazz posted a SS3 Goku in his Super gi a few posts above, which could be at any point in BoG or after RoF/U6.

The ranges for the Saiyan transformations appear to be as follows:

Super Saiyan = 5000's
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 = 6000's
Super Saiyan God = 7000's
Super Saiyan Blue = 8000's
Ultra Instinct and Blue Evolution = 9000's

There are some very rare exceptions, but this appears to be the general rule and it applies to all Saiyans so far outside of Goten and kid Trunks.

Honestly, I'd just stick to what stickers are used, rather than try to extrapolate potential power comparisons from the numbers used.

For example, how different levels of a character are treated separately; examples include Jiren's separation into a "full-power" sticker and a "shirtless power" sticker.

Doesn't quite work that way, since some sets have the same form of a character getting a lower number in a later set like SSB Vegeta. Also, I'm pretty sure there isn't a shirtless Jiren card.

[TheDipDap1234]

Worth noting that another card has Toppo as the same as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, another card has Dyspo below Super Saiyan God and another card has Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta actually below Super Saiyan God Goku so you really need to compare set by set for the most accuracy I imagine.

It's pretty accurate for the most part. I'd low Kaioken Goku a couple places. Toppo, Golden Frieza and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta should really all be the same. Aniraza should be higher than all them. Swap Goku and Cabba. Zamasu should be a bit higher. Ribrianne a bit lower. Base Goku Black should be higher.

But yeah not too off.

Agreed with everything you said except for Ribrianne. I think her placement is fine. She was seemingly doing decent against base Goku in their fight. Now i'm just wondering how strong her Giant form was.

[JazzMazz]

Is this a joke? SsjR Black stronger than Genki-sword Trunks?

Apparently it's just supposed to be Super Saiyan Rage Trunks. There's another sticker without him welding the sword that has the same Power Level.

If that's the case then it makes sense.

He pushed Merged Zamasu's Holy Wrath even before Genki-sword. Still makes no damn sense.

How doesn't it?

The sword was made from the power of literally two dozen living beings on the planet, its not particularly potent as far as spirit weapons go. I would say there is probably less energy in it than was in the genkidama that destroyed pure Buu.

The reason it was able to cut Zamasu in half, was a)he was extremely unstable and unbalanced and b) Its a powered up sharp ki weapon like the kienzan(who know, the thing that cuts through opponents many times stronger than the user). So again, against a physically and mentally unbalanced opponent, with a big sharp slicing key weapon, I don't see why its implausible to think that he didn't need to be stronger than fused Zamasu in order pull that off.

EDIT: Though I like where most of the characters are placed generally, I have to say, I don't like regular SS Vegetto is so ridiculously powerful, especially in comparison to Gogetta, for literally no reason. I know a lot of people don't like where the late fusion Buu arc characters are placed, but I'm mostly fine with them, with the exception of Vegetto.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, I'd just stick to what stickers are used, rather than try to extrapolate potential power comparisons from the numbers used.

For example, how different levels of a character are treated separately; examples include Jiren's separation into a "full-power" sticker and a "shirtless power" sticker.

Doesn't quite work that way, since some sets have the same form of a character getting a lower number in a later set like SSB Vegeta. Also, I'm pretty sure there isn't a shirtless Jiren card.

Oh right, it was something from Dokkan Battle. Sorry, I only saw something about that secondhand.

[Bullza]

Here's a collation of every single image that I could find for the card decks(Some cards may be repeated or shown more than once).[spoiler][/spoiler]

Still nothing on what that Gohan is supposed to be? He looks like Base Gohan and not Ultimate Gohan which has the bang included.

So why is the number higher than Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla and Piccolo?