GT vs Super [POLL]

[YamiGoku]

I have never not accepted that. I simply very much enjoy debating

Whats the point on debating if we already have our mindset carved in stone, no matter what anyone replays to you, youre going to keep coming back with the same mind set and never accept what others say about how GT is bad, like i cant accept what you describe as "good characters" or "Good arcs", because in my opinion they aren't good.

yes, there are people that like both Super and GT, or neither or something in between, but the people that has chosen a side, like you and me, are not going to change their mind set no matter what.

[Koitsukai]

IMO Goku vs Super 17 was unbearable, Goku took like forever to realize what was going on, although he knew from personal experience about energy-absorbing androids, SSJ4 skipped the fist-fight and went straight to super attacks and ki spamming like he was doing to no effect as ssj, things Vegeta does when he is cornered, while Goku really was not cornered, actually as SSJ4 had the upper hand. He only used his fists after he had made Super 17 strong enough to be far above him. To me is actually painful to see SSJ4 Goku give away a fight he could win, making mistakes just because. Beautiful to see, though, Goku grabbing Super 17 and exploding was a delight visually.

GT fights I really enjoyed:
- vs Rildo
- vs Baby (SSJ4 introduction)
- vs Ohzaru Baby, too bad episode 39 was drawn by a blind dog, the same dog that ruined for me SSJ4 FP Goku vs Ih Shenron
- vs the twin dragons (but only after Goku goes SSJ4)
- vs Ih shenron, his introduction and Goku hanging from above (probably my fav)
- vs Omega

[Cetra]

IMO Goku vs Super 17 was unbearable, Goku took like forever to realize what was going on, although he knew from personal experience about energy-absorbing androids

No, he did not. Listen to what the original anime itself is telling the viewer. Gokuu very well knew it, he flat out tells Super 17 he only did it because he thought if that would not work then nothing would. So he was very well aware of the whole ability, he just had no better plan than hoping for a Yakon to be pulled off.

[Robo4900]

Whats the point on debating if we already have our mindset carved in stone, no matter what anyone replays to you, youre going to keep coming back with the same mind set and never accept what others say about how GT is bad, like i cant accept what you describe as "good characters" or "Good arcs", because in my opinion they aren't good.

Did you actually read what I said?

yes, there are people that like both Super and GT, or neither or something in between, but the people that has chosen a side, like you and me, are not going to change their mind set no matter what.

Then, by that logic, all discussion on these forums is pointless, and we should all deactivate our accounts, delete all our posts, lock all threads, and just sit around not discussing anything anymore. After all, facts can't be discussed because you can't change a fact by just talking about it differently, and opinions are decided independently of what we discuss here, so we should all just sit around and never talk to anyone about anything ever.

[lancerman]

And Gt was only consistently bad in fight scenes. Baby vs Goku is the only remotely compelling fight in the whole series

Goku vs Ledgic
Goku vs Rildo
Goku vs Super 17
Goku&Pan vs Oceanus Shenron
Pan vs Haze Shenron
Goku vs Eis Shenron

Those were all good fights. Especially Goku vs Rildo was very good.

Those were okay fights not good or great fights.

Goku vs Beerus
Goku vs Jiren (both fights)
Vegeta vs Cabba
Goku vs Hit
Vegeta vs Toppo
Vegeto vs Goku Black/Zamasu
Goku vs Gohan
Goku/Vegeta vs Freeza
Goku vs Kefla
even smaller fights like Goku/17/Freeza vs Jiren

All of those I'd argue were head and shoulders over any fight you mentioned.

[coola]

One of other reasons i dont like Super, is that it feels like fanfiction (And if Toei really had forum, where they asked viewers what they want, that make perfect sense why they did that):
- Future Trunks and Freeza returns
- Corrupted Kaioshin and Evil Goku
- Ignoring/retconning established rules, for sake of plot
- ""Power leverls are BS" on realy big scale (Then again, Z also had such problems: Goku and others barely get any stronger during 5 years, made Raditz look like pushover in just year, Goku went from 416 to over 8000 on Kaio planet in year while Piccolo went from 3000 to above Nail 42.000 in less than month)

[Timetraveller]

And Gt was only consistently bad in fight scenes. Baby vs Goku is the only remotely compelling fight in the whole series

Goku vs Ledgic
Goku vs Rildo
Goku vs Super 17
Goku&Pan vs Oceanus Shenron
Pan vs Haze Shenron
Goku vs Eis Shenron

Those were all good fights. Especially Goku vs Rildo was very good.

I mean at the end of the day the "quality" of these fights is very subjective. I found the Rildo fight to be incredibly boring and the Ledgic fight to be the 2nd best in the GT series even though it was still bad. Again, personally the only fight I found to be particularly engaging was Goku vs Baby. Maybe in terms of strictly fighting quality, Super 17 vs Goku may be alright, but I felt it made very little sense, so it kind of ruined my engagement/immersion.

Uub vs Goku, Vegeta vs Baby Gohan, Goku vs Nuova Shenron. And we've almost listed every single fight in GT. They might not have reached Goku vs Jiren 131 heights but they never looked anywhere as bad as this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Ana7tXLMQ). Super had the highest highs and by far, the lowest lows in Dragonball.

GT went more for art consistency than anything else. Nothing looked jarring to the viewer and the art was very detailed and usually on-model.

That Super 17 fight was perfectly in line with what we've seen Goku do in the past. Trying to overload him with energy was a strategy he's used multiple times, against Yakon and a bunch of movie villains. If you can believe Frieza became a god in 3 months, Goku losing his guard or holding back every fight, Trunks unknowingly manifesting a spirit bomb and turning it into a sword or Vegeta somehow neutralizing GoD ki, everything is believable.

[PsionicWarrior]

Super had the highest highs and the lowest lows in Dragonball.

That's very true lol
TBH animation and artstyle (NOT characters design lol) aren't the biggest flaws of GT lol

[SupremeKai25]

The Future Trunks alone probably has better, more memorable and more iconic battles than the entire GT series.

- Goku Black vs. Vegeta in ep. 56
- Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs. Goku and Future Trunks in ep. 57
- Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs. Goku in ep. 61
- Goku Black vs. Vegeta in ep. 63
- Fused Zamasu vs. Goku and Vegeta in ep. 65
- Fused Zamasu vs. Vegeta and Future Trunks in ep. 65
- Fused Zamasu vs. Goku in ep. 66
- Fused Zamasu vs. Vegito in ep. 66
- Fused Zamasu vs. Future Trunks in ep. 66

All of these battles are some of the most memorable in the entire series. It's amazing how an arc that lasted only 20 episodes had so many awesome and stunning fights that truly left their mark on everyone's memories. In fact, ep. 65-66 were just one epic clash after another. Incredible.

Not to sound arrogant or anything, but I am pretty sure that most people don't even remember Goku vs. Ledgic or Goku vs. Rildo... those were not iconic fights.

[sunsetshimmer]

IMO Goku vs Super 17 was unbearable, Goku took like forever to realize what was going on

It was a bit stupid, but it looked great. It's easily one of the best looking and most outstanding fights in entire DB series. You hardly ever see things like that in DB.
Punching through half of planet or attacking from space. Fight was mostly about ki attacks, but those attacks looked very good.

And it looks better than most of TATATATATATA fights DBS had no matter how dynamic they looked like.
All the fights before Goku Black saga were unacceptable but even after that there were some bad fights in terms of choreography or simply visuals. Luckily, mostly the least important fights. Still most of them were forgettable to me.

Not to sound arrogant or anything, but I am pretty sure that most people don't even remember Goku vs. Ledgic or Goku vs. Rildo... those were not iconic fights.

Funny, because the only fights from this saga i remember are the first fight of Trunks and Goku Black and Vegito vs Zamasu. Other were so boring and repetitive that i can't even recall them.

[Rakurai]

The Future Trunks alone probably has better, more memorable and more iconic battles than the entire GT series.

- Goku Black vs. Vegeta in ep. 56
- Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs. Goku and Future Trunks in ep. 57
- Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs. Goku in ep. 61
- Goku Black vs. Vegeta in ep. 63
- Fused Zamasu vs. Goku and Vegeta in ep. 65
- Fused Zamasu vs. Vegeta and Future Trunks in ep. 65
- Fused Zamasu vs. Goku in ep. 66
- Fused Zamasu vs. Vegito in ep. 66
- Fused Zamasu vs. Future Trunks in ep. 66

All of these battles are some of the most memorable in the entire series. It's amazing how an arc that lasted only 20 episodes had so many awesome and stunning fights that truly left their mark on everyone's memories. In fact, ep. 65-66 were just one epic clash after another. Incredible.

Not to sound arrogant or anything, but I am pretty sure that most people don't even remember Goku vs. Ledgic or Goku vs. Rildo... those were not iconic fights.

Not to sound like a prick or anything, but I've watched all of Super and even I don't remember half of those fights. You're just spewing a list of every fight there and calling them 'memorable' just cause.

Super is also more recent than Z or GT. I'm pretty sure nobody even remembers the battles b/w Goku vs. Jeice/Burter/Recoome even though those were some of the most incredible battles out of all of Z.

[SupremeKai25]

Not to sound like a prick or anything, but I've watched all of Super and even I don't remember half of those fights

It's impossible that you don't remember half of those fights, especially with the dub of the arc airing right now.

Super is also more recent than Z or GT. I'm pretty sure nobody even remembers the battles b/w Goku vs. Jeice/Burter/Recoome even though those were some of the most incredible battles out of all of Z.

No, I can assure, people won't forget moments like Goku's rage over his family's gruesome death, or the Father-Son Galick Gun, or Goku pushing his Kamehameha so much that it broke his arms, or Vegito impaling Fused Zamasu. Those are iconic moments that shall live on forever in the memory of the vast majority of fans.

So, let me ask you something, you think that Goku vs. Rildo or Goku vs. Ledgic are as iconic as Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs. Goku and Future Trunks or Fused Zamasu vs. Vegito? Sorry, but that is just silly.

Also, Yeah, it makes sense that Super has double the votes of GT now that people can no longer cheat. Although it's sad that GT fans resorted to cheating to defend their favourite show.

[PsionicWarrior]

And it looks better than most of TATATATATATA fights DBS had no matter how dynamic they looked like.

GT fights also have some tatatata, and Z fights too, and DB fights too lol
I actually like tatatatata lol

[Timetraveller]

Not to sound like a prick or anything, but I've watched all of Super and even I don't remember half of those fights

It's impossible that you don't remember half of those fights, especially with the dub of the arc airing right now.

Super is also more recent than Z or GT. I'm pretty sure nobody even remembers the battles b/w Goku vs. Jeice/Burter/Recoome even though those were some of the most incredible battles out of all of Z.

No, I can assure, people won't forget moments like Goku's rage over his family's gruesome death, or the Father-Son Galick Gun, or Goku pushing his Kamehameha so much that it broke his arms, or Vegito impaling Fused Zamasu. Those are iconic moments that shall live on forever in the memory of the vast majority of fans.

So, let me ask you something, you think that Goku vs. Rildo or Goku vs. Ledgic are as iconic as Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs. Goku and Future Trunks or Fused Zamasu vs. Vegito? Sorry, but that is just silly.

Also, Yeah, it makes sense that Super has double the votes of GT now that people can no longer cheat. Although it's sad that GT fans resorted to cheating to defend their favourite show.

Recency does have a lot to do with it. Animation wise, the father-son Galick Gun or even Trunks's "rage" moments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frdysNaXCvs) had subpar animation and don't even compare to the lesser fights of DBZ like Goku vs the Ginyu force or GT fights like Goku vs Rildo. There's very little memorable about those scenes aside from the obvious fan service element of it. Obviously, more people will remember something that happened in the show last year vs something that happened in 1995 or 1997. You're also comparing the best arc in Super to what's essentially a mini-adventure arc from GT. That's like comparing Cell vs SS Goku with Prum vs Gohan and Piccolo in the ToP. How many people will remember any of the fodder ToP fights in a few years time?

[Koitsukai]

IMO Goku vs Super 17 was unbearable, Goku took like forever to realize what was going on

It was a bit stupid, but it looked great. It's easily one of the best looking and most outstanding fights in entire DB series. You hardly ever see things like that in DB.
Punching through half of planet or attacking from space. Fight was mostly about ki attacks, but those attacks looked very good.

And it looks better than most of TATATATATATA fights DBS had no matter how dynamic they looked like.
All the fights before Goku Black saga were unacceptable but even after that there were some bad fights in terms of choreography or simply visuals. Luckily, mostly the least important fights. Still most of them were forgettable to me.

There is no arguing that, the scenery, the night and day shift choice and flying around the stratosphere where really nice and the visual quality of the arc was pretty good, but I just can't bring myself to enjoy the final fight.

About the extremely fast-paced ToP fights, don't know how to call it, I'll call it easter eggs: when you slow down the speed of the video, you discover things that you had no idea where even there. Shiny, rapid clashes I've discovered that have clean, nice combos hidden behind all that speed, which I personally enjoyed.

[Rakurai]

Not to sound like a prick or anything, but I've watched all of Super and even I don't remember half of those fights

It's impossible that you don't remember half of those fights, especially with the dub of the arc airing right now.

Super is also more recent than Z or GT. I'm pretty sure nobody even remembers the battles b/w Goku vs. Jeice/Burter/Recoome even though those were some of the most incredible battles out of all of Z.

No, I can assure, people won't forget moments like Goku's rage over his family's gruesome death, or the Father-Son Galick Gun, or Goku pushing his Kamehameha so much that it broke his arms, or Vegito impaling Fused Zamasu. Those are iconic moments that shall live on forever in the memory of the vast majority of fans.

So, let me ask you something, you think that Goku vs. Rildo or Goku vs. Ledgic are as iconic as Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs. Goku and Future Trunks or Fused Zamasu vs. Vegito? Sorry, but that is just silly.

Also, Yeah, it makes sense that Super has double the votes of GT now that people can no longer cheat. Although it's sad that GT fans resorted to cheating to defend their favourite show.

I don't watch the dub.

Again, you're just pulling your favorite scenes and calling them "iconic moments that shall etc etc." Like TimeTraveller said, you are comparing small-time villains with main villains like apples vs. oranges in shows that just finished airing vs shows that finished airing 20 years ago.

I can assure you, people who watched GT won't forget moments like SSJ4 kicking Baby's ass, Goku dragon-fisting-Kamehameha'ing Super 17, Goku dragon-fisting San Xing Shenron, Gogeta clowning Syn Shenron. See, I can do that to.

Don't try to force your favorites down as facts or anything.

[PFM18]

Goku vs Ledgic
Goku vs Rildo
Goku vs Super 17
Goku&Pan vs Oceanus Shenron
Pan vs Haze Shenron
Goku vs Eis Shenron

Those were all good fights. Especially Goku vs Rildo was very good.

I mean at the end of the day the "quality" of these fights is very subjective. I found the Rildo fight to be incredibly boring and the Ledgic fight to be the 2nd best in the GT series even though it was still bad. Again, personally the only fight I found to be particularly engaging was Goku vs Baby. Maybe in terms of strictly fighting quality, Super 17 vs Goku may be alright, but I felt it made very little sense, so it kind of ruined my engagement/immersion.

Uub vs Goku, Vegeta vs Baby Gohan, Goku vs Nuova Shenron. And we've almost listed every single fight in GT. They might not have reached Goku vs Jiren 131 heights but they never looked anywhere as bad as this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Ana7tXLMQ). Super had the highest highs and by far, the lowest lows in Dragonball.

GT went more for art consistency than anything else. Nothing looked jarring to the viewer and the art was very detailed and usually on-model.

LOL yes you you have listed most of the fights in GT. But none of them could compare to the majority of fights in DBS. Jiren vs Goku is the best fight in the franchise by far. Kefla vs Goku, Gohan/Freeza vs Dyspo, Cabba vs Vegeta, Hit vs Goku, all of these fights are leaps and bounds better than anything we saw in GT. You try to simplify it to be as simple as "Super has the highest highs and lowest lows" when really the only "lows" that existed were in the retellings and that most people didnt even watch those. The following 106 episodes had consistently superior fights and animation than anything we saw in GT and I have no idea how you can deny that. Goku vs Baby was decent to good. The Ledgic fight was tolerable. Every other fight just isn't engaging. The Omega Shenron stuff? THAT is supposed to be the final battle? The final fight in the GT series? THAT is all that you can offer? Compare that to Jiren vs Goku in 129-131 and get back to me.

That Super 17 fight was perfectly in line with what we've seen Goku do in the past. Trying to overload him with energy was a strategy he's used multiple times, against Yakon and a bunch of movie villains. If you can believe Frieza became a god in 3 months, Goku losing his guard or holding back every fight, Trunks unknowingly manifesting a spirit bomb and turning it into a sword or Vegeta somehow neutralizing GoD ki, everything is believable.

The Super 17 fight was just ridiculous across the board. Majuub, Vegeta and the entire rest of the group is fighting Super 17 and everybody gets massacred. SSJ Goku shows up and easily damages him. Wasn't Majuub supposed to be legitimately strong? How tf is Goku stronger than him already in just SSJ? Why would he be so mcuh more effective than everybody else in just SSJ? Gohan supposedly never stopped training and we know that he has the highest potential, Vegeta should be strong at this point, and then Uub should be very strong in this story given he is the reincarnation of Pure Buu fused with Fat Buu and who has received tons of training..(He was so much wasted potential it was ridiculous btw.) And yet Goku waltzes in and shows how incredibly useless everybody else is. Perfect example of "Goku's time" in action. also, 17+17=stronger than everyone how? That makes no sense. Then Goku goes SSJ4 and it is still essentially even. Like wasn't it established this was supposed to be a massive increase in power?? Then Goku is apparently mentally challenged and decides to spam ki blasts forever. The whole thing is just dumb. Then the fight itself is just boring. You want to talk about having the lowest lows? The Super 17 arc is the worst arc in the franchise by far.

The fact that you reference movie villains shows just how weak this is if you are comparing this fight to movie villains that also aren't canon. Freeza has never trained and had a PL at 120M, to train in 4 months and reach God tier is questionable to some people but it ultimately resulted in Freeza's glorious showing in the ToP where his character was handled extremely well and we saw other sides of him that we never saw before. There was no precedent set for Freeza's strength gains so it doesn't contradict anything. If it wasn't for the Golden Freeza stuff then bringing Freeza back would have been laughable since he would be so weak.

Goku letting down his guard has always been a consistent thing that Super has built on and it showed that Goku and Vegeta have weaknesses that they must work on even though they have divine strength at this point.

[Rakurai]

Jiren vs Goku is the best fight in the franchise by far.

Hell no.

Jiren vs Goku is nothing compared to SSJ2 Goku vs Vegeta. The latter had animation, had choreography, had impact frames, had emotions, had music, had everything better. And I mean that.

[Dbzk1999]

Jiren vs Goku is the best fight in the franchise by far.

Hell no.

Jiren vs Goku is nothing compared to SSJ2 Goku vs Vegeta. The latter had animation,had choreography, had impact frames, had emotions, had music, had everything better. And I mean that.

How was the choreography better? Besides this one scene

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/25197

What else was there where the choreography is (arguably) better?

[PFM18]

Jiren vs Goku is the best fight in the franchise by far.

Hell no.

Jiren vs Goku is nothing compared to SSJ2 Goku vs Vegeta. The latter had animation, had choreography, had impact frames, had emotions, had music, had everything better. And I mean that.

Dude several portions of that fight was pretty generic. Goku vs Jiren was an extremely dynamic fight that showed intensity that no fight has ever showed before. As if the Majin Vegeta fight was the only one with music or emotion?? Have you watched Goku vs Jiren??