GT or Super? Which one is the best?

[Analytic]

In my opinion, Super is basically a fan-fiction. Universal tournaments (Multiverse, anyone?), a Super Saiyan form for every color of the rainbow, Evil Goku, Female Broly, the Namekians that fused with every other Namekian, every Saiyan randomly unlocking every Super Saiyan form, just to name a few.

While GT was boring, it at least had unique concepts in a universal Dragon Ball hunt, the Evil Dragons, the Tuffles, and it also managed to come up with it's own original transformation. GT also actually utilized Gogeta instead of needlessly retconning the Potara's properties and making Old Kaioshin seem ignorant.

As of right now, I find Super more entertaining, but that may be because it's fresh while Z and GT are played out at this point. I think a lot of people overrate Super and attack GT only because of Toriyama involvement.

[Robo4900]

In my opinion, Super is basically a fan-fiction. Universal tournaments (Multiverse, anyone?), a Super Saiyan form for every color of the rainbow, Evil Goku, Female Broly, the Namekians that fused with every other Namekian, every Saiyan randomly unlocking every Super Saiyan form, just to name a few.

While GT was boring, it at least had unique concepts in a universal Dragon Ball hunt, the Evil Dragons, the Tuffles, and it also managed to come up with it's own original transformation. GT also actually utilized Gogeta instead of needlessly retconning the Potara's properties and making Old Kaioshin seem ignorant.

Well, I disagree about it being boring, but to each their own... Having said that, I absolutely agree about everything else, 100%.

but that may be because it's fresh while Z and GT are played out at this point. I think a lot of people overrate Super and attack GT only because of Toriyama involvement.

I think that's what's going on, except the fact most people watch the Funi dub of GT really doesn't help either, and I think is almost as much of a contributor to its reputation as Toriyama's somewhat limited involvement.

Super has so much hype behind it, a lot of people get caught up in it, and it's easy for hype and excitement of this level to become a critical part of the viewing experience, so... I really don't think Super will age well; in 10 or 15 years, I think people will reflect on it a lot more poorly than they do now.
(To be clear: There's nothing wrong with getting caught up in the hype and excitement. Enjoying things is not wrong, no matter why it is that you enjoy it)

[PsionicWarrior]

In my opinion, Super is basically a fan-fiction.

Well now the irony is Super is the canon material and not GT lol

I think that's what's going on, except the fact most people watch the Funi dub of GT really doesn't help either

While I'm sure that dub deceives the show, we actually don't know if most people watch it in dub or is there some statistics?
Honestly it's not like sub vs dub makes the show either, a great show with a horrible dub remains a great show (see Z for reference lol), while a poor show with an awesome sub will remain a poor show lol

Super has so much hype behind it, a lot of people get caught up in it, and it's easy for hype and excitement of this level to become a critical part of the viewing experience, so... I really don't think Super will age well; in 10 or 15 years, I think people will reflect on it a lot more poorly than they do now.

Excuse me but isn't hype a positive sign for a show lol
Or if you mean the show has hype only because it's new, remember there was a time GT was new too, actually that decade ago lol

[Grimlock]

Well now the irony is Super is the canon material and not GT lol

Care lol to lol provide lol a lol source lol?

[sintzu]

Well now the irony is Super is the canon material and not GT lol

Care lol to lol provide lol a lol source lol?

You don't need one to see GT doesn't fit within the current timeline anymore. I guess one way they can connect them is have GT simply be a different timeline where Beerus never wakes up in which I think they'll do once Toriyama's done.

[Grimlock]

Probably, but my post was most directed to Dragon Ball Super, in which I'm completely sure there's nothing stating it to be part of a supposed canon. And Dragon Ball GT has been officially regarded as a different timeline in Dragon Ball Xenoverse and ignored by Dragon Ball Online.

[Kamiccolo9]

In my opinion, DBZ is a fanfiction. The main character turns out to be an alien with a secret brother? All the bad guys are getting tons of forms? The main guy has a form that is a ripoff of Alien? A whole bunch of lazy forms where people's hair just stands up and changes color? Lazy powerups that come out of nowhere? I mean, Gohan is the biggest Mary Sue character ever! He just gets really strong when he gets mad, and at the end, he just sits around for a day and ends up the strongest guy in the series!

Seriously, what kind of moron signed off on this bullshit?



For reals, can we stop with the incredibly idiotic "it's a fanfic!" "critique?" It's intellectually lazy, and it's meaningless. *Anything* can be portrayed as "fanficish." Do better than that. Super has plenty of legitimate issues. Focus on those, not some pseudo-critique bullshit that any idiot could come up with.

[CriticalThinker]

I think another advantage Super has over GT is that it has a Manga counter part while GT did not. So even if you didn't like the anime you have the manga version that you can read instead. Super also has the chance to further improve itself if it continues after the upcoming movie, unless they drop Super and create another new Dragonball series instead.

[Analytic]

*Anything* can be portrayed as "fanficish." Do better than that.

Not really. A fan-fiction is based on an already existing work. Saying 3rd form Freeza is a ripoff of Alien or that you think SS's design is lazy because it's just golden spiky hair doesn't make DBZ like a fan-fiction. DBS re-uses characters and recolors forms while giving old character uber-haxes out of nowhere.

I mean, Gohan is the biggest Mary Sue character ever! He just gets really strong when he gets mad, and at the end, he just sits around for a day and ends up the strongest guy in the series!

I mean, Gohan's latent power has been built-up and even been a plot point multiple times in the story ever since his introduction. It's not like it was some random asspull established right before Gohan got his power drawn out by Old Kaioshin.

Super has plenty of legitimate issues. Focus on those, not some pseudo-critique bullshit that any idiot could come up with.

Is there a need to be so hostile? Talking down to people doesn't make your argument any better.

[PFM18]

In my opinion, Super is basically a fan-fiction. Universal tournaments (Multiverse, anyone?), a Super Saiyan form for every color of the rainbow, Evil Goku, Female Broly, the Namekians that fused with every other Namekian, every Saiyan randomly unlocking every Super Saiyan form, just to name a few.

While GT was boring, it at least had unique concepts in a universal Dragon Ball hunt, the Evil Dragons, the Tuffles, and it also managed to come up with it's own original transformation. GT also actually utilized Gogeta instead of needlessly retconning the Potara's properties and making Old Kaioshin seem ignorant.

As of right now, I find Super more entertaining, but that may be because it's fresh while Z and GT are played out at this point. I think a lot of people overrate Super and attack GT only because of Toriyama involvement.

I mean regardless of whether or not it resembles a possible fan fiction, the story was still good. Besides, plenty of fanfics are high quality stuff. I don't even really see being
"fanficy" as even a bad thing.

[PsionicWarrior]

I don't get it why people label fanfic pejoratively, it only means its original author/creator had no part in it lol
In absolute there can be excellent fanfics, and awful original works lol

[Robo4900]

I don't get it why people label fanfic pejoratively, it only means its original author/creator had no part in it lol
In absolute there can be excellent fanfics, and awful original works lol

You're absolutely right.

After all, the orignial author wasn't involved much in GT past its first few episodes, but he is allegedly involved very heavily in Super.

[PsionicWarrior]

After all, the orignial author wasn't involved much in GT past its first few episodes, but he is allegedly involved very heavily in Super.

What? I thought all he did was some drawings lol

And yeah I did say 'in the absolute' lol

[Robo4900]

What? I thought all he did was some drawings

No. He was actually involved a lot more than people think. Geekdom broke it all down very well a while ago.

The cliffnotes of Toriyama's involvement: He drew all the designs for the initial cast(Yes, Moustache Vegeta was Toriyama's design. Toei are the guys who decided to shave it off. And Toei are the ones who get crap for it anyway. Go figure. He also designed the ship, Gill, Pan, Trunks, Bulma, etc.), he designed the logo, helped figure out the scenario, and advised on the story ideas used in the first arc. So, Imegga, Zunama, the Luud cult, etc. would have been done with notes/approval from the man himself.

The Kanzenshuu guide also goes into some detail, though Geekdom's is much more in-depth. One particular omission from the Kanzenshuu guide is Toriyama's involvement in its scenario and story ideas.

I think Toriyama stepping back after the first 10 or 15 episodes was a good thing; honestly, Toriyama is the kind of guy who needs a lot of involvement to make his style work. GT's first 10 or 15 episodes often had a lot of half-Toriyama-isms, stuff like the Bon-Para brothers sound like Toriyama ideas, but end up quite awkward when put on screen. In Super, you can see a lot of the hallmarks of Toriyama, but it often doesn't quite land, or feels off, but the manga feels much more authentically Toriyama, which would naturally be the case, since Toriyama edits Toyotaro's storyboards, and occasionally even draws a panel or two.
Though, having said that, jokes like the "Goku never kisses his wife" thing still play quite awkwardly in both the anime and the manga... But well... It was just a theory. (a game theory)

[Kunzait_83]

I think Toriyama stepping back after the first 10 or 15 episodes was a good thing; honestly, Toriyama is the kind of guy who needs a lot of involvement to make his style work. GT's first 10 or 15 episodes often had a lot of half-Toriyama-isms, stuff like the Bon-Para brothers sound like Toriyama ideas, but end up quite awkward when put on screen. In Super, you can see a lot of the hallmarks of Toriyama, but if often doesn't quite land, or feels off, but the manga feels very authentically Toriyama, which would naturally be the case, since Toriyama edits Toyotaro's storyboards, and occasionally even draws a panel or two. Though, having said that, jokes like the "Goku never kisses his wife" thing still play quite awkwardly in both the anime and the manga... But well, I didn't say this was a perfect theory. It was just a thought.

Want to co-sign all of this. I think Toriyama not being able to be directly at the helm is one of the big keys behind the failures of GT and Super alike. Not that the man himself is in any way infallible of course (DB Minus was purely his, and its among the all time worst travesties in the whole franchise: infinitely worse I think than even the rock bottom low points of GT and Super; and if the "Goku never kisses Chichi" thing is indeed his, then yeah, that's pretty far down there as well).

But all that said, I fully agree that his overall style and creative process hinges on spontaneity, improvisation, and the freedom to wing it on the fly. Having his ideas funneled 2nd or 3rd hand through multiple layers of production ends up leading to these awkward "half-Toriyama-isms" as you perfectly phrased it. Its not that I think that Toei are all inherently bad as well (I'm all in favor of their GT Vegeta redesign over Toriyama's, and much of GT's strongest stuff is contained in its later, more Toriyama-free episodes): like most things, this is far from a black and white scenario.

I think that ultimately the process that yielded the best results was having a manga basis that was all Toriyama as a "raw" framework from which to then craft an anime around. I think that Toriyama overall works best when he's just left to live in the moment and make whatever he wants... and moreover to actually fully realize it on his own; and Toei's anime staff, consequently, works best when they have a finished and fully realized Toriyama work from which to extrapolate from, fine tune, and tweak around the edges of.

But at the same time, I also think that WAY too much time has passed and Toriyama's heart isn't fully into committing to something like DB again: he got riled up just enough by Evolution to want to get back in the game somewhat, but he's still not energized enough to go full bore. Which leads to the iffy half-measure that is Super.

Basically I just think that the stars are misaligned, and that without a fully revitalized Toriyama back at the (literal) drawing board week to week, its safe to say that DB's time is just passed. That lightning isn't going to strike twice. And its not like its some kind of tragedy: its already borne out a TON of content from its original heyday, so its not like it was cut down before its time by any stretch of the imagination. GT at least, if nothing else, offered a satisfying cap of closure that put a final pin into the whole thing to the best degree that anyone could've hoped for by then.

This leaves Super in the much more awkward (and unenviable) position of just being another - in a very long line of - misguided and ill-advised belated comeback attempts from an old, classic property too many years/decades long after their original completion.

[PsionicWarrior]

What? I thought all he did was some drawings

No. He was actually involved a lot more than people think. Geekdom broke it all down very well a while ago.

I'm sorry it's hard for me to watch that video as I know all this stuff so can you point it to the part where it says:

helped figure out the scenario, and advised on the story ideas used in the first arc.

Because it also clearly says the story was written by the Toei staff and not by Toriyama around 11m30 lol
So yeah he did mostly drawings and he came up with the name my bad forgetting about that one earlier lol

[PFM18]

After all, the orignial author wasn't involved much in GT past its first few episodes, but he is allegedly involved very heavily in Super.

Yeah look where that got us. Goku's time. We got a series with exactly one useful character.

[PsionicWarrior]

...

Your quote is wrong it's not me you're quoting

[PFM18]

...

Your quote is wrong it's not me you're quoting

Yeah sorry I realized it after I posted it and now it wont let me delete it.

[sunsetshimmer]

Well now the irony is Super is the canon material and not GT lol

Care lol to lol provide lol a lol source lol?

You don't need one to see GT doesn't fit within the current timeline anymore. I guess one way they can connect them is have GT simply be a different timeline where Beerus never wakes up in which I think they'll do once Toriyama's done.

Super series is full of fillers from Z and contradicts BOTH anime and manga making it impossible to be canon.
If there is anything canon in Super, it would be plot outline or basically everything that Toriyama made from scratch.
They messed up with Super, because Toriyama was making manga sequel while TOEI was making anime sequel.

The most funny part is that GT is considered to be part of the same timeline as Super. Now i can't find a photo but there was an official Dragon Ball timeline that included both Super and GT as part of story. So despite DBS contradicting canon a lot by itself, then connected it with GT which creates even more issues. This could be from some guidebook or event. I am not sure now. It had to be somewhere in news here as well.

I don't even know what is more bullshit. Power levels or canon.