Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

This idea that SSJ Goku currently is stronger than SSJG Goku from BOG doesn't hold any merit. We can just look at the movie that people claim was "retconned". SSJ Goku is around the same strength as SSJG whom is a 6 to Beerus' 10. Are people saying that if Goku went SSJ2 he would've been able to overpower Beerus? SSB Goku>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ2 Goku>Beerus>SSJ Goku=SSJG Goku? No obviously that isn't the case. This isn't any different between any medium.

All that happened here is that Goku's Super Saiyan form during BOG was fueled by SSJG's power. He felt no different after reverting, so he still felt like he was a Super Saiyan God. That Super Saiyan state is what went on to become Super Saiyan Blue. We saw this exact scenario in the manga with Goku Black.

He lost access to that power after BOG hence Goku during ROF being stated to be below the level of the Gods prior to SSB, a level that SSJG Goku was stated to reach. Goku's Super Saiyan form as of now, is not fueled by SSJG's power, which is shown by it not being on the level of the Gods. It's just his normal Super Saiyan form.

[Hugo Boss]

It was explained by Whis that it was Kefla’s Saiyan spirit (in a metaphorical way) that kept her fighting back, not her hidden strength or anything like that. She is pretty much an example of Saiyan-improving-in-the-middle-of-battle trait. Beerus told Goku to finish that fight while he was still with the advantage.

Goku had no advantage tho, Kefla wasn't weakening at all and not evne his strongest attack could blow her away. Whis statement about Kefla's Saiyan blood driving her is in the context of Roshi saying she is passed her limits just like Goku was...Saiyans go above and beyond the call of duty in battle. The theme of the arc. That is also alluding to her power especially when Whis stated Goku had no choice to use KK Blue against Kefla's "terrifying power."

Roshi said in a educated way that she was losing, that’s what “past her limits” means.

[Bullza]

So how would rank these characters then

Good Buu
Piccolo
Goku
Bergamo
Drugged Basil
Super Saiyan Gohan

[JazzMazz]

So how would rank these characters then

Good Buu
Piccolo
Goku
Bergamo
Drugged Basil
Super Saiyan Gohan

What type of Goku?

If merely base Goku in Super, I think I would go with something like this.

-Good Buu
-Drugged Basil/ Base Goku
-Piccolo
-Super Saiyan Gohan
-Bergamo(base Bergamo)

They're all in a very similar tier I think, so with the exception of Good buu, I think its hard to differentiate.

[Bullza]

What type of Goku?

Just Base Goku.

I find this awkward to rank. If there was no retcon, then Base Goku and Bergamo should easily be at the top.

If Base Gohan was supposed to be as strong as Piccolo in Z then as a Super Saiyan your think he would above Buu. Piccolo would be above that if he's as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Then Buu and then Basil.

The manga seems to imply that Piccolo is above Bergamo though. Buu was implied to be above Piccolo at least by the Resurrection F saga too.

[PFM18]

So how would rank these characters then

Good Buu
Piccolo
Goku
Bergamo
Drugged Basil
Super Saiyan Gohan

Goku
Piccolo
Bergamo
SSJ Gohan
Good Buu
Drugged Basil

Goku is by far the strongest even in Base, Piccolo contributed against Saonel and Pirina so he has to be above the rest especially since he manhandled SSJ Gohan. Bergamo is heavily implied to be the strongest of the trio so.

[Marlowe89]

That Super Saiyan state is what went on to become Super Saiyan Blue. We saw this exact scenario in the manga with Goku Black.

That's actually not a bad point. Zamasu did mention that Super Saiyan Black's hair changed color after surpassing the Super Saiyan God threshold (and also that for mortals, it would have been blue) so the manga does establish a precedent for believing that the God-enhanced Super Saiyan state in BoG would go on to become Super Saiyan Blue itself.

So how would rank these characters then

Good Buu
Piccolo
Goku
Bergamo
Drugged Basil
Super Saiyan Gohan

Good Buu
Piccolo ~ Drugged Basil
Super Saiyan Gohan
(Base) Goku
(Base) Bergamo

Right off the bat, Super Saiyan Gohan was already shown to be on par with Super Saiyan Goku in Episode 75. Goku couldn't have been holding back much because Gohan specifically told his father not to do so during the match, not to mention both characters were getting into the fight to the point that neither of them were aware of their surroundings.

Bergamo is the strongest of the Trio De Dangers, but it's important to keep in mind that the Trio De Dangers themselves were called the strongest fighters of Universe 9. The story provides no implication of a massive gap between Bergamo and his brothers in their base forms, and given that Bergamo was suggested to be weaker than Piccolo, Drugged Basil should be stronger than a Bergamo who doesn't use his giant/absorption ability.

Piccolo is tricky to place. His portrayal throughout the series seems a bit inconsistent, but if we go with his high-end showings he should be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan -- so somewhere between Drugged Basil and Buu, I'd imagine.

That should be the gist of it. It's not a perfectly neat order, but it seems to be the most congruent with how Super's characters are currently written.

[NthNewbie]

So according to the cards, Ultimate Gohan is not on the same level as Super Saiyan God Goku. Which means the Universe 6 Namekians wouldn't be either.

Android 17 is not as high as Ultimate Gohan or Kale but appears to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Would people agree with that? Would anyone dispute that?

I'm sure a few people would dispute that, especially those who personally want Gohan and 17 to be God+ tier fighters for some reason.

I would agree with it. I've already presented my case for why I don't think they were intended to be as strong as some people have been arguing, so that's more or less where I've always had them, and to me it's no coincidence that the manga sort of implied the same thing with 17 in particular. They do seem like they would be closer to Kale's range if anything, with Gohan being the stronger of the two.

Except there's literally 0 evidence for Gohan being stronger than 17 and plenty of evidence that suggest otherwise. 17 pushed Goku to SSB, Gohan didn't and had to beg. 17 also did much better against Toppo than Gohan did. Base Toppo who was SSB+ level was being pushed back by 17's small ki blasts and had to use full power to push him off the arena. This is the same Toppo who took Gohan's kamehameha to the face like it was nothing.

I've been lurking for a while but feel the need to comment because the obsession with these stickers is getting silly. If they had no input from Toriyama or the writers, then they're simply made based off someone's opinion which is just as good as yours or mine. Anyone who has been paying to the attention to the show can get the basic rankings right, it's far from any indication that the entire ranking is accurate or holds any weight.

Anyway, this is how I'd personally rank these characters at full power:

1) Hit
2) Base Toppo/Freeza
3) Freeza/Base Toppo
4) 17
5) Dyspo
6) Gohan

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So how would rank these characters then

Good Buu
Piccolo
Goku
Bergamo
Drugged Basil
Super Saiyan Gohan

Traditional Power Level Rankings
> Super Saiyan Goku/Gohan
> Base Goku/Gohan, Slim Buu, Piccolo
> Drugged Basil, Bergamo, Fat Buu
(This list assumes that there have been no retcons, and only factors in power level, not fighting skill.)

Combat Skill Rankings
> Goku, Buu, Bergamo, Basil, Piccolo, Gohan
(This list assumes that combat skill is a more effective means of determining how characters square up with one another.)

[Marlowe89]

Except there's literally 0 evidence for Gohan being stronger than 17

Absolutely false. One of the scenario writers ranked Gohan as stronger than 17 at one point on his own Twitter account. Toppo manhandled both characters simultaneously, and the only real advantage 17 had that Gohan didn't was an entirely strategic one.

I've been lurking for a while but feel the need to comment because the obsession with these stickers is getting silly. If they had no input from Toriyama or the writers, then they're simply made based off someone's opinion which is just as good as yours or mine.

Given the release schedule of some of these card sets, they had to have been prepared in advance of the show's scheduling to some degree. Whoever coordinated these numbers definitely wasn't just some random guy sitting at home every Sunday morning in Japan taking notes on every episode. The vast majority of viewers don't even think about power-scaling to the same degree as we do, and yes, official material is always going to hold more weight than some fan's opinion even if it isn't entirely flawless itself.

With that said, I never claimed that these cards were 100% true or unquestionable. We can still discuss them and their potential validity without people like yourself coming in out of nowhere (or hilariously enough, registering on the board) just to accuse everyone of obsession. It's just derailing the thread at this point -- either state your arguments without resorting to ad hominem attacks or don't post at all.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Personally speaking, I generally place Ultimate Gohan and 17 around the same ballpark; lower than SSB/True Golden Freeza/Toppo in pure power, but able to tangle with that level somewhat.

However, like Marlow89 said, 17 is the more strategic and pragmatic of the two; he also has infinite energy/stamina. These advantages squarely put him above Gohan in my book, as he can use his power much more effectively; Gohan is basically a weaker Vegeta in that sense.

[Bullza]

I think even in the Resurrection F saga (or was it just the movie?) it was clearly implied that Base Goku was stronger than Buu.

That clearly continued to be the case up through to the Copy Water arc. So at what point, if at all, do people think they changed things?

If Base Future Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks at what was near the end of the saga then they couldn't have retconned them back down to below Frieza by then.

[Rally 07]

This idea that SSJ Goku currently is stronger than SSJG Goku from BOG doesn't hold any merit. We can just look at the movie that people claim was "retconned".

The movie has been retconned by Dragon Ball Super. Gokou had been stated to absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God transformation in his fight with Beerus and surpassed that level. Since then, he has gotten astronomically more powerful, stacking other Super Saiyan transformations and powerups, fighting opponents such as Gokou Black and Merged Zamas receiving numerous Zenkai Boosts. How could he not be stronger from then?

[Rally 07]

Absolutely false. One of the scenario writers ranked Gohan as stronger than 17 at one point on his own Twitter account. Toppo manhandled both characters simultaneously, and the only real advantage 17 had that Gohan didn't was an entirely strategic one.

And yet Toshio later contradicted himself claiming Gohan is equal with Artificial Human No.17. And No.17 arguably done a better job than Ultimate Gohan against Base form Toppo. No.17 was able to briefly exchange hits and managed to hold his own against essentially his full power, excluding Toppo's Hakaishin transformation. This is the same Base form Toppo that was enough to push Gokou to use Kaioken against him. He'd be slightly stronger than your average Post-Jiren Super Saiyan Blue level fighter such as Artificial Human No.17, Golden Freeza, and Ultimate Gohan. But their still rivaling Base form Toppo regardless.

[NthNewbie]

Except there's literally 0 evidence for Gohan being stronger than 17

Absolutely false. One of the scenario writers ranked Gohan as stronger than 17 at one point on his own Twitter account. Toppo manhandled both characters simultaneously, and the only real advantage 17 had that Gohan didn't was an entirely strategic one.

This very same writer also made it a point to say that it was purely his own opinion. He was even saying that Gohan = 17 at one point. What does that tell you about how seriously you should take his opinion? He isn't Toriyama, nor is he the only writer of the show. Feats > one writer's statement.

I'm not saying that 17's power advantage over Gohan is a definite one because they're clearly in the same ballpark. I'm saying that there are far more arguments to be made in his favor than Gohan's. Whether or not 17's only real advantage against Gohan was entirely strategic is arguable, but we know that Gohan had zero feats that put him above 17. So based on feats alone, 17 >= Gohan is far more logical than Gohan >= 17.

I've been lurking for a while but feel the need to comment because the obsession with these stickers is getting silly. If they had no input from Toriyama or the writers, then they're simply made based off someone's opinion which is just as good as yours or mine.

Given the release schedule of some of these card sets, they had to have been prepared in advance of the show's scheduling to some degree. Whoever coordinated these numbers definitely wasn't just some random guy sitting at home every Sunday morning in Japan taking notes on every episode. The vast majority of viewers don't even think about power-scaling to the same degree as we do, and yes, official material is always going to hold more weight than some fan's opinion even if it isn't entirely flawless itself.

That makes his opinion even less credible, not more. It shouldn't hold more weight than the opinion of fans who actually pay attention to the show and analyze what they watch. Just being official says exactly nothing if it wasn't made with accuracy in mind.

With that said, I never claimed that these cards were 100% true or unquestionable. We can still discuss them and their potential validity without people like yourself coming in out of nowhere (or hilariously enough, registering on the board) just to accuse everyone of obsession. It's just derailing the thread at this point -- either state your arguments without resorting to ad hominem attacks or don't post at all.

My account was made last year. I didn't suddenly create one just to respond. And I was just calling it as I see it, it wasn't a personal attack by any means. If you disagree with my observation then just say so, there's no need to dramatize this whole thing. Perhaps fixation or preoccupation is the better term to use, rather than obsession.

I wouldn't be chiming in if you guys are actually discussing the cards' potential validity (that is what happened a few pages back but not in recent ones), you're using it as confirmation of sorts when it's just someone else's opinion with little thought put into it (according to what you just said).

[Hugo Boss]

That makes his opinion even less credible, not more. It shouldn't hold more weight than the opinion of fans who actually pay attention to the show and analyze what they watch. Just being official says exactly nothing if it wasn't made with accuracy in mind.

You are confusing credibility with consistence. If you compare an official product with a random opinion, then of course the official product has more weight. If it’s consistent or no with what you think, that’s another matter.

If you disagree with my observation then just say so, there's no need to dramatize this whole thing. Perhaps fixation or preoccupation is the better term to use, rather than obsession.

It will save our times to chose the proper words to express our opinion before posting. Anyone who reads that post will think you are attacking multiple people.

[NthNewbie]

That makes his opinion even less credible, not more. It shouldn't hold more weight than the opinion of fans who actually pay attention to the show and analyze what they watch. Just being official says exactly nothing if it wasn't made with accuracy in mind.

You are confusing credibility with consistence. If you compare an official product with a random opinion, then of course the official product has more weight. If it’s consistent or no with what you think, that’s another matter.

Something that is credible is also reliable and trustworthy. Being official doesn't automatically make something more objectively credible than a random opinion, the people behind these cards are just regular people like you and me who have nothing to do with the writing of these characters. In short, they don't necessarily have either credibility or consistency. A better example would be if Toriyama says something that contradicts himself, he'd have credibility but no consistency.

If you disagree with my observation then just say so, there's no need to dramatize this whole thing. Perhaps fixation or preoccupation is the better term to use, rather than obsession.

It will save our times to chose the proper words to express our opinion before posting. Anyone who reads that post will think you are attacking multiple people.

My bad then.

[Miracles]

Roshi said in a educated way that she was losing, that’s what “past her limits” means.

"Past her limits" after Kefla "took" a clean hit from Goku means she is being "driven by her Saiyan blood."
Just like Goku was, going beyond the call of duty, "exerting power beyond expectations."
This is what Kefla was doing not that she was losing.

[ZombieVito]

So how would rank these characters then

Good Buu
Piccolo
Goku
Bergamo
Drugged Basil
Super Saiyan Gohan

Piccolo
SS Gohan
Goku
Bergamo
Boo
Drugged Basil

[Marlowe89]

This very same writer also made it a point to say that it was purely his own opinion. He was even saying that Gohan = 17 at one point. What does that tell you about how seriously you should take his opinion? He isn't Toriyama, nor is he the only writer of the show. Feats > one writer's statement.

That doesn't really matter. The writers themselves are privy to the power-scaling in the original drafts and dictate how the show's scaling is conveyed to the viewer, so obviously his opinion matters tremendously more than some fan's viewpoint on an internet forum.

"Feats" are far less credible than writer statements and official materials. They're often highly subjective, prone to pedantic analysis beyond what the writers themselves intended and highly susceptible to misinterpretation. They're not particularly reliable at all compared to authorial intention.

Just being official says exactly nothing if it wasn't made with accuracy in mind.

I never implied that it wasn't made with accuracy in mind. I specifically said that they were developed in advance of the show's scheduling, meaning that they were quite plausibly connected to its production as well.

Official material (merchandise or otherwise) always takes priority over fanon conjecture. That's just not going to change.

If you disagree with my observation then just say so, there's no need to dramatize this whole thing.

No, that was my point to you. Don't dramatize the discussion by accusing people of obsession. Counter the argument, not the motive. If you can't use the appropriate words, that's entirely your own fault. Gather your thoughts more carefully next time before making a contribution.

This is the same Base form Toppo that was enough to push Gokou to use Kaioken against him.

Goku didn't even use Kaioken until the end of the fight, and pushing Goku to use Kaioken doesn't automatically imply base Toppo to be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. As already established in the manga and the anime's tournament, he isn't that much more powerful.

Neither of them are rivalling base Toppo; he was clearly able to handle them both with the utmost ease at the same time. Gohan's Kamehameha did nothing to him, and 17 is clearly somewhere in the same ballpark as Gohan.