I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

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Logania
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I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by Logania » Wed May 16, 2018 7:01 pm

After their second visit to the future, they're surprised that Goku Black is still around as they thought he would vanish when Beerus used Hakai on Zamasu, only for Black to state that the time ring has kept him alive due to it being unaffected by changes in history.

All 3 of them heard that and never have a moment in their fights with the duo afterwards to try and remove the ring to get rid of the biggest threat. Not even a bit of dialogue during their fight to think of trying it out when they're overpowered by Black.

I know it isn't very dramatic or entertaining to the arc, like the idea of Goku just using Instant Transmission to eliminate Jiren, but I would at least think Trunks of all people would try, considering he doesn't like to draw things out and end fights quickly.
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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by theherodjl » Wed May 16, 2018 7:49 pm

This also makes me curious as to why Boohan or Merged Zamasu never tried to destroy Vegetto's Potara? When Goku used his kamehameha on Kefla, it destroyed her earrings which caused her to defuse. Surely with all their techniques, power, and cleverness: you would imagine that either villain might think of attacking the Potara instead of going toe-to-toe with the fighters themselves?
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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by Jackalope89 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:28 pm

theherodjl wrote:This also makes me curious as to why Boohan or Merged Zamasu never tried to destroy Vegetto's Potara? When Goku used his kamehameha on Kefla, it destroyed her earrings which caused her to defuse. Surely with all their techniques, power, and cleverness: you would imagine that either villain might think of attacking the Potara instead of going toe-to-toe with the fighters themselves?
Kefla's transformation wouldn't have lasted long (overall) anyway, the way she was throwing out power.

As for the earrings; would Boohan or Merged Zamasu even know that destroying them would diffuse the fusers? Remember back in Z, it was thought by even the Old Kai that the fusion would be permanent. It took Gowasu explaining the 1 hour time limit for non-Supreme Kais in Super. Somehow, I don't think Fused Zamasu ever got that memo.

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by R. Daneel Olivaw » Wed May 16, 2018 10:35 pm

Logania wrote:I know it isn't very dramatic or entertaining to the arc, like the idea of Goku just using Instant Transmission to eliminate Jiren, but I would at least think Trunks of all people would try, considering he doesn't like to draw things out and end fights quickly.
Actually, I've thought about it a lot and I think it could be pretty cool if you do it right. The way I described it was with Trunks using his sword to cut off Black's hand. We'd get a close-up of his severed hand falling onto the dusty ground with a soft pat, and then silence. Black would look at his severed wrist, looking baffled. The realization would set in, and he would let out a disappointed sigh before he splits open, producing a vortex that consumes him from the center outward. He He emits a hateful roar as he is deleted from existence, and the vortex fades soon after.

His hand is still on the ground. With contempt, Trunks picks it up and slides the ring off. It is deleted in the same way, but more quickly. Only the ring remains, which Trunks tosses to Gowasu. Zamasu is pissed.

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 17, 2018 1:17 am

Such a strategy would not work on Fused Zamasu. Why? Because even if you removed his Time Ring and successfully erased from existence the Goku Black's half, Fused Zamasu would just turn into his Grotesque form. Do you know why Fused Zamasu became so horribly disfigured? It's because, in that moment when Goku overpowered Fused Zamasu with his Kamehameha, he actually killed Goku Black. Hence why the mortal half of the Fusion had just become dead flesh at that point. So, again, I am not so certain that Fused Zamasu would truly be defeated by the loss of his Time Ring. Maybe half of his body would turn into dead flesh/disintegrate, but he would still have an Immortal side.

As for Goku Black, yes, they definitely should have attempted to remove his Time Ring. He literally told them 'This Ring is the only thing keeping me alive'. And they did nothing. It just made them look dumb.
Actually, I've thought about it a lot and I think it could be pretty cool if you do it right. The way I described it was with Trunks using his sword to cut off Black's hand. We'd get a close-up of his severed hand falling onto the dusty ground with a soft pat, and then silence. Black would look at his severed wrist, looking baffled. The realization would set in, and he would let out a disappointed sigh before he splits open, producing a vortex that consumes him from the center outward. He He emits a hateful roar as he is deleted from existence, and the vortex fades soon after.
I won't lie, that scene would be pretty cool.
This also makes me curious as to why Boohan or Merged Zamasu never tried to destroy Vegetto's Potara? When Goku used his kamehameha on Kefla, it destroyed her earrings which caused her to defuse. Surely with all their techniques, power, and cleverness: you would imagine that either villain might think of attacking the Potara instead of going toe-to-toe with the fighters themselves?
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:
Probably because both these villains, so vainglorious and self-confident, didn't even consider the idea that Vegito posed a real threat to them, and once they proved to be in danger, they were just blinded by hatred and couldn't think logically.

Fused Zamasu in particular... I mean, he was just tanking Vegito's attacks and laughing his ass off at his immortality.
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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by Logania » Thu May 17, 2018 2:44 am

Yes, for Fused Zamasu it wouldn't work, although to be honest I'd much rather the ring be destroyed or removed to cause his anger and corrupted form, so it would actually have an effect on a plot point shown earlier, like Cell and his claims about his nucleus being what keeps him alive and Gohan destroying said nucleus.

Instead, Goku by himself breaks through and sends back Zamasu's attack and destroying essentially half of his being which makes no sense, when Vegito's strongest attack didn't do anything and Trunks/Vegeta Galick Gun combo didn't do anything either. Kiiiiinda makes the power scaling shitty in that area (I know people say he was sandbagging, but the scene conveyed it very differently. He's screaming, yelling, grunting while pushing the attack, they should've handled it different)
_____

Also R. Daneel Olivaw very cool idea you made, although kinda brutal lol
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by theherodjl » Thu May 17, 2018 8:43 am

Jackalope89 wrote:Kefla's transformation wouldn't have lasted long (overall) anyway, the way she was throwing out power.

As for the earrings; would Boohan or Merged Zamasu even know that destroying them would diffuse the fusers? Remember back in Z, it was thought by even the Old Kai that the fusion would be permanent. It took Gowasu explaining the 1 hour time limit for non-Supreme Kais in Super. Somehow, I don't think Fused Zamasu ever got that memo.
Neither Boo or Zamasu considered the idea that the Potara would be permanent for Goku & Vegeta; the Potara was actually limited for Merged Zamasu in the manga as well. They both knew that the earrings were the catalyst of fusion so it is quite possible that the villains could've deduced that they needed to damage the Potara.
Obviously from an out-of-universe perspective, Akira Toriyama had little plans for the Potara to reappear so he stopped thinking on it then decided to change it up in DBS. From an in-universe perspective though, Boohan & Zamasu just seemed to have lost their tempers thus they forgot about the cause of their dilemma in anger. Now this really makes me wonder if these villains are really the geniuses that they were made out to be...
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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 17, 2018 8:52 am

Instead, Goku by himself breaks through and sends back Zamasu's attack and destroying essentially half of his being which makes no sense, when Vegito's strongest attack didn't do anything and Trunks/Vegeta Galick Gun combo didn't do anything either. Kiiiiinda makes the power scaling shitty in that area (I know people say he was sandbagging, but the scene conveyed it very differently. He's screaming, yelling, grunting while pushing the attack, they should've handled it different)
That was such a lame asspull! So, guys, full-power Fused Zamasu, this guy who is the fusion between Goku Black (who was stomping effortlessly Goku and Vegeta just 5 minutes ago) and Future Zamasu (who is immortal and has perfect regeneration), was easily overpowered by Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Why, You may politely ask? It's simple. Because Goku tried harder. That's it. And don't tell me that Fused Zamasu was holding back, because he clearly wasn't. Watch that scene. The tone of his voice was desperate and frustrated, he was clearly tired of these Saiyans' bullshit and was trying his hardest to win.

God, episode 66 was so, so stupid.

Going back to the topic. Is it ever mentioned in the manga how Black lives? Future Zamasu is the one who wears the Time Ring in the manga, Black doesn't. So how does he avoid the time paradox?
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by R. Daneel Olivaw » Thu May 17, 2018 10:09 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:Going back to the topic. Is it ever mentioned in the manga how Black lives? Future Zamasu is the one who wears the Time Ring in the manga, Black doesn't. So how does he avoid the time paradox?
Does he need one? Black's physical body, that of Goku, was never destroyed in the past. The Zamasu that stole Black's body was from another timeline, anyway. I think it was the Present Zamasu that Beerus destroyed.

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 17, 2018 11:02 am

R. Daneel Olivaw wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Going back to the topic. Is it ever mentioned in the manga how Black lives? Future Zamasu is the one who wears the Time Ring in the manga, Black doesn't. So how does he avoid the time paradox?
Does he need one? Black's physical body, that of Goku, was never destroyed in the past. The Zamasu that stole Black's body was from another timeline, anyway. I think it was the Present Zamasu that Beerus destroyed.
Black himself states that he is Present Zamasu, the one who was defeated by a mere mortal and decided to murder Gowasu and steal Goku's body. To which Goku remarks 'But how can that be?! I saw Beerus destroy you! He said you'd be gone!'. Black then states 'Beerus doesn't understand the full beauty of this Time Ring! Wearing it protects me from changes to time. Not even what a God did in the past can affect me!'. Finally, Trunks says 'So you're some version of yourself where you killed your master?!', to which Black replies that he is right. In the end, Black's soul was Present Zamasu's, and Present Zamasu's soul was erased from existence by Beerus.

To sum up, Goku Black is an alternate version of Present Zamasu, so he basically is the Zamasu who was destroyed by Beerus. The law of time dictates that, since Black's alternate self was destroyed, Black should have also disappeared. But Beerus miscalculated, for wearing the Time Ring allowed Black to shield himself from what happened in the past.

This is a loop, a paradox, and this all started when Trunks first travelled through time and space and literally broke the flow of reality.

The only thing keeping Black alive after Present Zamasu's death was the Time Ring. But in the manga, he didn't wear a Time Ring... so how did he avoid getting erased from existence as a result of his alternate self's destruction?
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by dbgtFO » Thu May 17, 2018 11:42 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:The only thing keeping Black alive after Present Zamasu's death was the Time Ring. But in the manga, he didn't wear a Time Ring... so how did he avoid getting erased from existence as a result of his alternate self's destruction?
That paradox does not exist in the manga, so Black didn't have that to worry about.

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu May 17, 2018 7:43 pm

Didn't it actually turn out that Beerus created another timeline as part of his miscalculation, albeit the effects of his action didn't settle in until later?

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by R. Daneel Olivaw » Thu May 17, 2018 9:49 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Didn't it actually turn out that Beerus created another timeline as part of his miscalculation, albeit the effects of his action didn't settle in until later?
I always thought that was stupid.
Hail Zeon wrote:First off, it is confirmed, 100%, undeniable fact, that when Beerus killed Zamasu, he created a split fucking timeline. It wasn't Whis, it wasn't anything fuckin' else, it was Beerus killing Zamasu. And then somehow, somehow, him killing Zamasu creates a Universe in where he did not kill Zamasu some-fucking-how as if that makes sense whatso-fucking-ever.

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by OLKv3 » Thu May 24, 2018 9:22 am

Black wouldn't have vanished if they removed his time ring. This is all from an incorrect translation

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by desu » Sun May 27, 2018 3:31 pm

R. Daneel Olivaw wrote:
Logania wrote:I know it isn't very dramatic or entertaining to the arc, like the idea of Goku just using Instant Transmission to eliminate Jiren, but I would at least think Trunks of all people would try, considering he doesn't like to draw things out and end fights quickly.
Actually, I've thought about it a lot and I think it could be pretty cool if you do it right. The way I described it was with Trunks using his sword to cut off Black's hand. We'd get a close-up of his severed hand falling onto the dusty ground with a soft pat, and then silence. Black would look at his severed wrist, looking baffled. The realization would set in, and he would let out a disappointed sigh before he splits open, producing a vortex that consumes him from the center outward. He He emits a hateful roar as he is deleted from existence, and the vortex fades soon after.

His hand is still on the ground. With contempt, Trunks picks it up and slides the ring off. It is deleted in the same way, but more quickly. Only the ring remains, which Trunks tosses to Gowasu. Zamasu is pissed.
I wouldn't be surprised if Black activates his ki sword and blocks Trunks attack, then he cuts his hand instead. That's if Trunks tried to attack him before SS Rage or even after that since they would be equal. This would have been a good idea when Trunks was fighting Jim and Zamasu Aline, would have made episode 62 more memorable.
As I see it, however, I think Goku would fight Zamasu while Vegeta grabs Black from behind and Trunks tries to take It from him. To his surprise, Black activates his sword and cuts Trunks' hand, leaving him weak and unable to fight.

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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by Terra-jin » Sun May 27, 2018 4:10 pm

I don't see any way for Blacks statement about the time ring's protection to make logical sense. Since none of the gods have shown that they fully understand time travel, I dismiss Blacks statement as simply false / misinformed. In my headcanon, he comes from an unseen timeline.
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Re: I'm Surprised Goku/Vegeta/Trunks Never Attempt to Remove Goku Black's Time Ring

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:55 pm

The whole "time ring" protects you from temporal alterations of your past self came from the anime only. Even if Black were not wearing a time ring, why would destroying a past version of himself, destroy the future version. By DB logic, it would create a new timeline in which Zamasu is destroyed by Beerus. Beerus learns of Zamasu and decides to destroy him only because he was warned by Future Trunks, which caused him to investigate further. Future Trunks only warned because of Black in the future. Hence, it is a paradox. To fix a paradox, a new timeline is created. This what is logical and what also occurred in DBZ.
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