"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

You can appreciate the guys talents but don’t have to indulge in celebrity worship

That's what the people defending Toyotaro are doing.

I’m not defending Toyotaro, I even said he was tracing . Difference is him tracing doesn’t really impact anything in the real world, Toriyama hiding millions does but you do you.

Muh Toriyama san

You are literally arguing against a strawman. Scummy behavior is scummy behavior, doesn't matter who it comes from.

[ToshioWrites]

That's what the people defending Toyotaro are doing.

I’m not defending Toyotaro, I even said he was tracing . Difference is him tracing doesn’t really impact anything in the real world, Toriyama hiding millions does but you do you.

Muh Toriyama san

You are literally arguing against a strawman. Scummy behavior is scummy behavior, doesn't matter who it comes from.

There’s degrees to scummy behavior and Toyotaros is far below what Toriyama did.

[prince212]

But still nobody is showing a pic where the whole draws are aling to shut up my mouth, I will if so .

Here's the pic btw. It's the best I could find, I don't have time to make it myself right now:

Thank you , it’s hard to see the trace for me , I just can see the same position. But it’s just me I guess when you see the sun blue and everybody sees that it’s yellow , that means my eye has a problem . So I shut up as promise

[Doctor.]

There’s degrees to scummy behavior and Toyotaros is far below what Toriyama did.

Okay, and? I'm not sure what your point is. Why are you arguing for which is the shiniest of the two turds?

[ToshioWrites]

There’s degrees to scummy behavior and Toyotaros is far below what Toriyama did.

Okay, and? I'm not sure what your point is. Why are you arguing for which is the shiniest of the two turds?

The point is literally no one in this fandom gave 2 fucks about toriyama's scandal , it was just brushed off with a "laughs, Thats just toriyama" but now for this toyo shit you guys are acting like he committed murder.

If toyo made the same comments toriyama did about peeping on his daughter in the bath, this entire thread would be up in outrage calling for his head but when toriyama does it, its "oh he's just joking"

[Doctor.]

The point is literally no one in this fandom gave 2 fucks about toriyama's scandal , it was just brushed off with a "laughs, Thats just toriyama" but now for this toyo shit you guys are acting like he committed murder.

If toyo made the same comments toriyama did about peeping on his daughter in the bath, this entire thread would be up in outrage calling for his head but when toriyama does it, its "oh he's just joking"

Plenty of people gave a shit about Toriyama's tax fraud, just like plenty of people didn't. The same is true here; some people don't give a shit about plagiarism, others do. You're turning a blind eye to the other side in order to justify your argument.

[dbgtFO]

I just find this funny to be quite honest and I don't think there's much legally that can be done. It's a pose ffs.
By the way

.

Who is that artist who did the grumpy old lady?
That shit's hilarious!

[ToshioWrites]

The point is literally no one in this fandom gave 2 fucks about toriyama's scandal , it was just brushed off with a "laughs, Thats just toriyama" but now for this toyo shit you guys are acting like he committed murder.

If toyo made the same comments toriyama did about peeping on his daughter in the bath, this entire thread would be up in outrage calling for his head but when toriyama does it, its "oh he's just joking"

Plenty of people gave a shit about Toriyama's tax fraud, just like plenty of people didn't. The same is true here; some people don't give a shit about plagiarism, others do. You're turning a blind eye to the other side in order to justify your argument.

There's no blind eye, twitter and other sites didn't blow up a quarter of as much the day toriyama tax fraud scandal was released like they have today. Even to this day people act like he's some beyond reproach figure while toyo won't see this down ever. I'm not even exxagerating when i say hat 80% of this fandom wouldn't care if toriyama committed murder just because he gave them their childhood

[Vegeta_Sama]

There’s degrees to scummy behavior and Toyotaros is far below what Toriyama did.

Okay, and? I'm not sure what your point is. Why are you arguing for which is the shiniest of the two turds?

The point is literally no one in this fandom gave 2 fucks about toriyama's scandal , it was just brushed off with a "laughs, Thats just toriyama" but now for this toyo shit you guys are acting like he committed murder.

If toyo made the same comments toriyama did about peeping on his daughter in the bath, this entire thread would be up in outrage calling for his head but when toriyama does it, its "oh he's just joking"

Because this is a Dragon Ball forum, not a Toriyama's life choices one.

[Saiga]

Defending Toyotarou, or even questioning the situation, is not at all celebrity worship. That is a ridiculous exaggeration.

I find the allegedly correctly aligned images to be a bit suspicious (I don't see why Toyo would change so much if he were to trace) and Toyotarou has some incredibly persistent detractors.

If this is truly traced, that's dissappointing. They shouldn't use him for promotional images if it's going to be too much for him to do proper artworks.

[ToshioWrites]

Okay, and? I'm not sure what your point is. Why are you arguing for which is the shiniest of the two turds?

The point is literally no one in this fandom gave 2 fucks about toriyama's scandal , it was just brushed off with a "laughs, Thats just toriyama" but now for this toyo shit you guys are acting like he committed murder.

If toyo made the same comments toriyama did about peeping on his daughter in the bath, this entire thread would be up in outrage calling for his head but when toriyama does it, its "oh he's just joking"

Because this is a Dragon Ball forum, not a Toriyama's life choices one.

So you wouldn't care about anything toriyama did as long as it wasn't db related?

Rape, Murder, Beat his wife?

Its not db so it doesn't matter does it?

Either you are underage or a republican

[Vegeta_Sama]

The point is literally no one in this fandom gave 2 fucks about toriyama's scandal , it was just brushed off with a "laughs, Thats just toriyama" but now for this toyo shit you guys are acting like he committed murder.

If toyo made the same comments toriyama did about peeping on his daughter in the bath, this entire thread would be up in outrage calling for his head but when toriyama does it, its "oh he's just joking"

Because this is a Dragon Ball forum, not a Toriyama's life choices one.

So you wouldn't care about anything toriyama did as long as it wasn't db related?

Rape, Murder, Beat his wife?

Its not db so it doesn't matter does it?

Either you are underage or a republican

Well, I am underage (16) but that has nothing to do with this. I'm not defending it, I'm just explaining why I think that most people don't give a shit about the tax stuff, as opposed to Toyo's traced drawing.

[batistabus]

Dude...no. How did you miss my point so badly? Just going to respond to every point.

1. I heavily disagree with the manga being the "true" successor to Dragon Ball.

5. I see no "padding" or "product placement" in the anime. I see added depth, interesting dialogue, new encounters, and even world building almost nonexistant in the manga. For the crap filler gets I feel Super's filler adds more to its arcs and gives off more heart. I get nothing like that from the manga and I dont get how you do.

1. Toyotaro is Toriyama's "chosen successor". Toriyama directly supervises the manga in a much more hands-on way than the anime, even going so far as to redraw panels from time to time. On the other hand, Toriyama outwardly "complain about the quality of the TV anime." Even if you ignore how much better the DBS manga emulates the feel of the original DB manga, the manga being the more faithful successor isn't up for debate. Feel free to prefer the anime, but don't ignore the facts.

2. Kale - created by Toei - exists because Westerners like Broli. This has been explicitly stated. Now let's look at all of the extra transformations the anime has created, and compare that to the manga's SSB without aura. Which makes for more action figures or DBH card variety?

As for the rest of your points, it seems that we just disagree so fundamentally that there's no point in continuing this conversation.

[The gr]

It definitely looks traced which I'm disappointed with Toyotaro and with the fandom.

[shadowfox87]

People just love to find something and use it start a witch hunt. Is there no artist ever allowed to use the same pose as Captain America in the future forever? You don't copyright a "pose". Yes, it's obvious that Toyotaro did use Captain America as a base layer, but there are differences. By law, if a derivative work is transformative, then it is not copyright infringement. Music remixes, movie remakes, etc. are all derivatives. Dragon Ball itself has many influences from which its story is based off like Journey to the West. Goku's backstory is very similar to Superman's (home planet explodes, parents send kid in spacepod to Earth, kid arrives and has superpowers).

Obviously, it wasn't wise to use it on the front cover of V-Jump, but mistakes happen. Give the man a break. People make mistakes. It doesn't mean it should be the end of his career as a mangaka. If Toriyama ever came to a con, which table do you think he'd sit with? With Toyotaro or Toei? Regardless of what happened, I don't care. It's just too minor.

[WittyUsername]

I have to admit, when I first saw that people here were talking about Toyatoro, I assumed that he was in trouble for sexually assaulting someone, or for possessing child pornography.

Anyway, as far as the most recent chapter is concerned, it was fine. Even though I’m not sure how to feel about U4’s hidden fighters getting eliminated so early, I do like how they managed to accomplish more than what they did in the anime. Plus, I suppose the fact that the manga didn’t really build them up all that much makes it more acceptable for them to get eliminated like they did.

In terms of how the manga handled the magic girls, I don’t have much of an opinion. I never really cared for Ribrianne and her crew, so I can’t say I’m going to lose any sleep over their small role in the manga. I suppose it’s a bit unfortunate that U2 as a whole doesn’t seem to have much in the way of personality compared to their anime counterparts, but I did at the very least find the whole gag about Ribrianne finding Kuririn handsome to be amusing.

This chapter also confirms once and for all that the manga isn’t necessarily going to be following the order that the members of U7 were eliminated in the anime, which is interesting. While I’m assuming that the whole thing will still ultimately boil down to #17 being the last one standing, it’ll be interesting to see if the final eight fighters of the tournament will be the same as they were in the anime, especially considering that unlike the anime, U11 is actually being treated as the top dog of the tournament.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Dude...no. How did you miss my point so badly? Just going to respond to every point.

1. I heavily disagree with the manga being the "true" successor to Dragon Ball.

5. I see no "padding" or "product placement" in the anime. I see added depth, interesting dialogue, new encounters, and even world building almost nonexistant in the manga. For the crap filler gets I feel Super's filler adds more to its arcs and gives off more heart. I get nothing like that from the manga and I dont get how you do.

1. Toyotaro is Toriyama's "chosen successor". Toriyama directly supervises the manga in a much more hands-on way than the anime, even going so far as to redraw panels from time to time. On the other hand, Toriyama outwardly "complain about the quality of the TV anime." Even if you ignore how much better the DBS manga emulates the feel of the original DB manga, the manga being the more faithful successor isn't up for debate. Feel free to prefer the anime, but don't ignore the facts.

2. Kale - created by Toei - exists because Westerners like Broli. This has been explicitly stated. Now let's look at all of the extra transformations the anime has created, and compare that to the manga's SSB without aura. Which makes for more action figures or DBH card variety?

As for the rest of your points, it seems that we just disagree so fundamentally that there's no point in continuing this conversation.

Toriyama "complained" about the anime once not multiples times.

Also you cannot excuse Toyotaro giving forms just because the Manga is BW. Toyo gave Vegeta SSG, & Black regular SS. Toei gave Vegeta & Trunks a new forms. They're both even & not counting the fact that Toei's form didn't deviate much from the previous one's (Ikari still resembles SS, SSGSS.E still resembles SSGSS). Then on top of that neither form being marketed.

Why is there one rule for Toyo and Toei in this regard? Just cuz his manga is BW? Vegeta having red SSG doesn't somehow matter? Come on now.

Also what does Kale have to do with anything? She's in the manga too. If you're hating Toei on that then it would be hypocritical to not hate Toyo for that too.

[Cursemark505]

People just love to find something and use it start a witch hunt. Is there no artist ever allowed to use the same pose as Captain America in the future forever? You don't copyright a "pose". Yes, it's obvious that Toyotaro did use Captain America as a base layer, but there are differences. By law, if a derivative work is transformative, then it is not copyright infringement. Music remixes, movie remakes, etc. are all derivatives. Dragon Ball itself has many influences from which its story is based off like Journey to the West. Goku's backstory is very similar to Superman's (home planet explodes, parents send kid in spacepod to Earth, kid arrives and has superpowers).

The coddling of Toyotaro is ridiculous. Some of you refuse to criticize the guy & jump to his defense whenever anybody does do it. It's one thing when you guys defend & praise the trash writing in the dbs manga, but this is something beyond that. He did not simply use the pose nor was it an influence. He literally traced it and that's inexcusable.

Obviously, it wasn't wise to use it on the front cover of V-Jump, but mistakes happen. Give the man a break. People make mistakes. It doesn't mean it should be the end of his career as a mangaka. If Toriyama ever came to a con, which table do you think he'd sit with? With Toyotaro or Toei? Regardless of what happened, I don't care. It's just too minor.

This wasn't a mistake. He traces stuff all the time.

-He traces Toriyama's work
"but...but it's a homage!!"
>He traces other artists
"but..but it's influenced!!"

This has to stop.

Even Toyo knows what he did was wrong which is why he deleted his sketch .

[Marlowe89]

Also you cannot excuse Toyotaro giving forms just because the Manga is BW. Toyo gave Vegeta SSG, & Black regular SS. Toei gave Vegeta & Trunks a new forms. They're both even & not counting the fact that Toei's form didn't deviate much from the previous one's (Ikari still resembles SS, SSGSS.E still resembles SSGSS).

Excuse what? Super Saiyan God is a pre-existing form reconceived by Toriyama. Black having the regular Super Saiyan form was mentioned in Toriyama's very own character design notes. Neither of these things in the manga are even remotely equivalent to stupid shit like Super Saiyan Rage and Blue Evolution, both of which were likely extraneous Toei creations.

[Lord Beerus]

A little late to the party, but yeah, found out the circumstances of the incident and I'm really disappointed in Toyotaro tracing from Marvel comics. He's much better than that.