Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Yes it is. And UI is a form that is stated to be beyond gods of destruction in more than just that magazine. Beerus has nothing going for him to be above jiren or goku. Even if beerus was above belmod (which could very well be the case), jiren is also beyond belmod, and lets not forget that he got exponentially stronger in episode 130 by breaking his limits.

An official magazine is all we need.

What we need is the magazine to have the same statement in the canon source material. It wasn't.
How do you know Beerus has nothing going for him to be above Jiren and Goku?
A generic statement about UI being above the state of gods isn't proof either. The gods power varies.

Beerus is a hakaishin, nothing more, nothing less. UI being a state above hakaishins include beerus. There is really nothing going for beerus.
There is official material telling us where goku in 129 stands compared to beerus. You dont like it, but it is official, regardless if it is second hand source.

Btw, hakaishins vary little in power. Look how beat up beerus was before he went up against quitela. Look how belmod managed to trap them all and injure all of them. Beerus isnt a being that sits upon a pedestal in super, there are 11 others that occupy his rank, and can injure the shit out of him.

[Miracles]

Beerus is a hakaishin, nothing more, nothing less. UI being a state above hakaishins include beerus. There is really nothing going for beerus.
There is official material telling us where goku in 129 stands compared to beerus. You dont like it, but it is official, regardless if it is second hand source.

Btw, hakaishins vary little in power. Look how beat up beerus was before he went up against quitela. Look how belmod managed to trap them all and injure all of them. Beerus isnt a being that sits upon a pedestal in super, there are 11 others that occupy his rank, and can injure the shit out of him.

Beerus was fighting ALL the gods at the same time. No feat in all the anime and manga can out do it. They couldn't even track his movements and he threw an attack that could of possibly killed many of them. Then proceeded to sleep the rest of the gods with Quitela. Yeah there is reasons for Beerus being wounded cause he took the most unlike Belmound who played dead and couldn't even keep up with Beerus at the start. The gap was clearly shown.

I have no problem with the second hand material, the magazine doesn't even state 129 Goku being above Beerus, it is simply questioned.
However, no such thing comes up in the canon, the main source material. So it isn't proof of anything.
Beerus is a god of destruction but each one is different in level. In order to confirm one has surpassed a goal/benchmark it would be directly stated.
You have no such proof.

[PFM18]

I was thinking that its halirious how the show doesnt give a fuck about where characters stand in power, and we have to stick to promotional material or posters that have statements.

Like honestly, if the 129 UI goku = or > beerus promotional poster wasnt a thing, whe would probably be thinking beerus was still a benchmark for goku, as no statements were made comparing goku or jiren to beerus.

Except if it wasn't for the promotional poster then it was still abundantly clear that Jiren and Completed UI were both stronger than Beerus. Several times it was either shown or implied it was just never explicitly stated. The only thing the promotional poster gave us is a more precise point as to when Goku equaled/surpassed Beerus rather than just knowing when he is in Completed UI he is stronger than Beerus.

Still, statements wouldnt kill anyone. And I'm pretty sure you are aware, that being hinted is not the same as being stated. Look around just in this website, there is still debate of wether ssj kefla equals a spirit bomb, if jiren (before his 130 power up) is even above or on par with beerus in power, if toppo is comparable to current hakaishins. The list goes on, and its because super has been vauge in nearly all power scaling matters. We didnt even know ssb vegito was comparable to beerus before the manga touched upon that.

Well in the anime SSB Vegetto isn't comparable to Beerus. It was heavily implied that Jiren>Beerus to the point where a statement would be just stating the obvious. A statement was not necessary and the "show but don't tell" concept of storytelling applies here.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Beerus is a hakaishin, nothing more, nothing less. UI being a state above hakaishins include beerus. There is really nothing going for beerus.
There is official material telling us where goku in 129 stands compared to beerus. You dont like it, but it is official, regardless if it is second hand source.

Btw, hakaishins vary little in power. Look how beat up beerus was before he went up against quitela. Look how belmod managed to trap them all and injure all of them. Beerus isnt a being that sits upon a pedestal in super, there are 11 others that occupy his rank, and can injure the shit out of him.

Beerus was fighting ALL the gods at the same time. No feat in all the anime and manga can out do it. They couldn't even track his movements and he threw an attack that could of possibly killed many of them. Then proceeded to sleep the rest of the gods with Quitela. Yeah there is reasons for Beerus being wounded cause he took the most unlike Belmound who played dead and couldn't even keep up with Beerus at the start. The gap was clearly shown.

I have no problem with the second hand material, the magazine doesn't even state 129 Goku being above Beerus, it is simply questioned.
However, no such thing comes up in the canon, the main source material. So it isn't proof of anything.
Beerus is a god of destruction but each one is different in level. In order to confirm one has surpassed a goal/benchmark it would be directly stated.
You have no such proof.

I have proof. That is proof. You are the one without proof so you just cry out that there is bo proof. And beerus isnt much stronger than all gods, he may not even be the strongest. He dodge them because he had a sloppy version of Ui that didnt last 3 pages.

Wheres your proof? Oh wait, you have none

[Kenneth La Torre]

Except if it wasn't for the promotional poster then it was still abundantly clear that Jiren and Completed UI were both stronger than Beerus. Several times it was either shown or implied it was just never explicitly stated. The only thing the promotional poster gave us is a more precise point as to when Goku equaled/surpassed Beerus rather than just knowing when he is in Completed UI he is stronger than Beerus.

Still, statements wouldnt kill anyone. And I'm pretty sure you are aware, that being hinted is not the same as being stated. Look around just in this website, there is still debate of wether ssj kefla equals a spirit bomb, if jiren (before his 130 power up) is even above or on par with beerus in power, if toppo is comparable to current hakaishins. The list goes on, and its because super has been vauge in nearly all power scaling matters. We didnt even know ssb vegito was comparable to beerus before the manga touched upon that.

Well in the anime SSB Vegetto isn't comparable to Beerus. It was heavily implied that Jiren>Beerus to the point where a statement would be just stating the obvious. A statement was not necessary and the "show but don't tell" concept of storytelling applies here.

Well, I'm currently arguing with someone who thinks beerus > jiren. So theres that for you

[Miracles]

I have proof. That is proof. You are the one without proof so you just cry out that there is bo proof. And beerus isnt much stronger than all gods, he may not even be the strongest. He dodge them because he had a sloppy version of Ui that didnt last 3 pages.

Wheres your proof? Oh wait, you have none

I didn't make the false claim that UI Goku and Jiren are above Beerus.
I'm the one asking for proof; direct statement or the fight of MUI Goku vs Beerus from the authoritative canon material.
You didn't provide it.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I have proof. That is proof. You are the one without proof so you just cry out that there is bo proof. And beerus isnt much stronger than all gods, he may not even be the strongest. He dodge them because he had a sloppy version of Ui that didnt last 3 pages.

Wheres your proof? Oh wait, you have none

I didn't make the false claim that UI Goku and Jiren are above Beerus.
I'm the one asking for proof; direct statement or the fight of MUI Goku vs Beerus from the authoritative canon material.
You didn't provide it.

No need to be from the anime it self. That why we have guides and magazines. Wasnt a false claim, it was a valid one

Thats all you need. Dont like it. Too bad.
Wait for the manga

[PFM18]

Beerus is a hakaishin, nothing more, nothing less. UI being a state above hakaishins include beerus. There is really nothing going for beerus.
There is official material telling us where goku in 129 stands compared to beerus. You dont like it, but it is official, regardless if it is second hand source.

Btw, hakaishins vary little in power. Look how beat up beerus was before he went up against quitela. Look how belmod managed to trap them all and injure all of them. Beerus isnt a being that sits upon a pedestal in super, there are 11 others that occupy his rank, and can injure the shit out of him.

Beerus was fighting ALL the gods at the same time. No feat in all the anime and manga can out do it. They couldn't even track his movements and he threw an attack that could of possibly killed many of them. Then proceeded to sleep the rest of the gods with Quitela. Yeah there is reasons for Beerus being wounded cause he took the most unlike Belmound who played dead and couldn't even keep up with Beerus at the start. The gap was clearly shown.

I have no problem with the second hand material, the magazine doesn't even state 129 Goku being above Beerus, it is simply questioned.
However, no such thing comes up in the canon, the main source material. So it isn't proof of anything.
Beerus is a god of destruction but each one is different in level. In order to confirm one has surpassed a goal/benchmark it would be directly stated.
You have no such proof.

Beerus fighting all the gods at once was manga only and doesn't apply to the anime. In terms of the anime, Whis heavily implied that Jiren>Belmod>Beerus.(Whis said there lies a mortal who is stronger than their GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus. Beerus disputes it saying it was only an arm wrestle but Whis believes that Belmod>Beerus and we have no reason to question him. ) and UI Goku beat Jiren so things look like this:

UI Goku>Limit Breaker Jiren>Full-Power Jiren>Belmod>Beerus>=3rd UI Omen Goku

This was laid out for us clear as day, and supplemented by the promotional material. If there was any doubt before, it was erased when the promotional material came out. Especially when you consider the entire concept of Ultra Instinct being an ability that the GoDs can't even use yet, and how all of them stood up when Goku completed UI.

Still, statements wouldnt kill anyone. And I'm pretty sure you are aware, that being hinted is not the same as being stated. Look around just in this website, there is still debate of wether ssj kefla equals a spirit bomb, if jiren (before his 130 power up) is even above or on par with beerus in power, if toppo is comparable to current hakaishins. The list goes on, and its because super has been vauge in nearly all power scaling matters. We didnt even know ssb vegito was comparable to beerus before the manga touched upon that.

Well in the anime SSB Vegetto isn't comparable to Beerus. It was heavily implied that Jiren>Beerus to the point where a statement would be just stating the obvious. A statement was not necessary and the "show but don't tell" concept of storytelling applies here.

Well, I'm currently arguing with someone who thinks beerus > jiren. So theres that for you

Well they are ignoring what the story and promotional material has shown. That is their problem not Dragon Ball Super's problem for not spoon feeding every little bit of information.

[Miracles]

No need to be from the anime it self. That why we have guides and magazines. Wasnt a false claim, it was a valid one

Thats all you need. Dont like it. Too bad.
Wait for the manga

The magazine asks a question if 129 Goku surpassed Beerus, NOT that he did. So you stating UI did surpass Beerus is a false claim.
Especially when the anime, canon material did not reveal such an important story point about Beerus, the benchmark himself being surpassed.

Beerus fighting all the gods at once was manga only and doesn't apply to the anime. In terms of the anime, Whis heavily implied that Jiren>Belmod>Beerus.(Whis said there lies a mortal who is stronger than their GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus. Beerus disputes it saying it was only an arm wrestle but Whis believes that Belmod>Beerus and we have no reason to question him. ) and UI Goku beat Jiren so things look like this:

UI Goku>Limit Breaker Jiren>Full-Power Jiren>Belmod>Beerus>=3rd UI Omen Goku

This was laid out for us clear as day, and supplemented by the promotional material. If there was any doubt before, it was erased when the promotional material came out. Especially when you consider the entire concept of Ultra Instinct being an ability that the GoDs can't even use yet, and how all of them stood up when Goku completed UI.

Beerus stood up with an exciting smile when MUI Goku was revealed. Doesn't mean Goku is stronger. Beerus even told the audience to shut up and watch when Goku went on the offensive.
Again it was proven that Whis lied about Beerus being weaker than the god who was weaker than a mortal cause Whis didn't even know which god or verse until the Genki Dama incident in the TOP. Whis simply based his statement on a rumor and we know Beerus only losing in arm wrestling is a canon fact in both outlines. Beerus was right Whis was wrong. So it isn't proof of anything either.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Beerus is a hakaishin, nothing more, nothing less. UI being a state above hakaishins include beerus. There is really nothing going for beerus.
There is official material telling us where goku in 129 stands compared to beerus. You dont like it, but it is official, regardless if it is second hand source.

Btw, hakaishins vary little in power. Look how beat up beerus was before he went up against quitela. Look how belmod managed to trap them all and injure all of them. Beerus isnt a being that sits upon a pedestal in super, there are 11 others that occupy his rank, and can injure the shit out of him.

Beerus was fighting ALL the gods at the same time. No feat in all the anime and manga can out do it. They couldn't even track his movements and he threw an attack that could of possibly killed many of them. Then proceeded to sleep the rest of the gods with Quitela. Yeah there is reasons for Beerus being wounded cause he took the most unlike Belmound who played dead and couldn't even keep up with Beerus at the start. The gap was clearly shown.

I have no problem with the second hand material, the magazine doesn't even state 129 Goku being above Beerus, it is simply questioned.
However, no such thing comes up in the canon, the main source material. So it isn't proof of anything.
Beerus is a god of destruction but each one is different in level. In order to confirm one has surpassed a goal/benchmark it would be directly stated.
You have no such proof.

Beerus fighting all the gods at once was manga only and doesn't apply to the anime. In terms of the anime, Whis heavily implied that Jiren>Belmod>Beerus.(Whis said there lies a mortal who is stronger than their GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus. Beerus disputes it saying it was only an arm wrestle but Whis believes that Belmod>Beerus and we have no reason to question him. ) and UI Goku beat Jiren so things look like this:

UI Goku>Limit Breaker Jiren>Full-Power Jiren>Belmod>Beerus>=3rd UI Omen Goku

This was laid out for us clear as day, and supplemented by the promotional material. If there was any doubt before, it was erased when the promotional material came out. Especially when you consider the entire concept of Ultra Instinct being an ability that the GoDs can't even use yet, and how all of them stood up when Goku completed UI.

Well in the anime SSB Vegetto isn't comparable to Beerus. It was heavily implied that Jiren>Beerus to the point where a statement would be just stating the obvious. A statement was not necessary and the "show but don't tell" concept of storytelling applies here.

Well, I'm currently arguing with someone who thinks beerus > jiren. So theres that for you

Well they are ignoring what the story and promotional material has shown. That is their problem not Dragon Ball Super's problem for not spoon feeding every little bit of information.

I dont really blame them. The anime ahould make it clear when it comes to such high levels of powers. Of course we have second hand sources, but i think people wpuld appreciated even more if it was directly in the anime

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Beerus would lose to Vegeta since Final Explosion>Destruction Energy as already shown...
Beerus could probably beat SSJ Kefla due to the Destruction Energy since her power rivals the Spirit Bomb and Jiren neutralizing that was a God of Destruction level feat. He would be outmatched in hand to hand though. Against SSJ2 Kefla, he's out of luck. She has the power to one shot a universe in that form and was stronger than initial UI Goku, whom was equal to suppressed Jiren whom was compared to a God of Destruction. She would blow away his Destruction Energy along with the universe.

Hakai power varies, that's why Vegeta said about Toppo, so this is "his" destruction power.
To think Beerus's power is the same level of Toopo's just cause he became a god of destruction is headcannon.

Also, how can Kefla and UI omen Goku be stronger than Beerus when no statement of comparison was given. That is more head trauma from you.

I don't see how that proves anything. "This is his power as a God of Destruction" was said since Vegeta is fighting Toppo, so that's who he's addressing. In no way does this justify some colossal difference between the Gods. There are differences between the Gods, but every statement regarding their power puts all of them on the same level. Hence all of the general blanket statements like "A God of Destruction can't reach this level".

Toppo is stated to be no different from any of the other Gods. In terms of everything, he is no different from a God of Destruction and that includes strength.

We don't need a direct comparison statement to know that the Grand Priest is stronger than Yamcha.
Jiren, UI Goku and SSBE Vegeta are all stated or shown to be above a God of Destruction. No comparison to Beerus specifically is necessary. It goes without saying.

Regardless, suppressed Jiren was stated to be above the realm of God of Destruction and so was UI Goku.
There's no reason to even entertain your position of Beerus supposedly being stronger than everyone stated to be stronger than him, even though the power of a God of Destruction is stated to be inferior to the power of the former mentioned.

[Koitsukai]

Again it was proven that Whis lied about Beerus being weaker than the god who was weaker than a mortal cause Whis didn't even know which god or verse until the Genki Dama incident in the TOP. Whis simply based his statement on a rumor and we know Beerus only losing in arm wrestling is a canon fact in both outlines. Beerus was right Whis was wrong. So it isn't proof of anything either.

Wait, that's proof in your eyes? that is proof that Whis lied???? he did know that Belmond is physically stronger than Beerus(Beerus never claimed that he was holding back, that it was a tie or that Belmond cheated, he lost fair and square), and then you find out that Jiren cleans the floor with Belmond, in an arm-wrestling match red aura Jiren would rip off Beerus's arm.

[Miracles]

I don't see how that proves anything. "This is his power as a God of Destruction" was said since Vegeta is fighting Toppo, so that's who he's addressing. In no way does this justify some colossal difference between the Gods. There are differences between the Gods, but every statement regarding their power puts all of them on the same level. Hence all of the general blanket statements like "A God of Destruction can't reach this level".

Toppo is stated to be no different from any of the other Gods. In terms of everything, he is no different from a God of Destruction and that includes strength.

We don't need a direct comparison statement to know that the Grand Priest is stronger than Yamcha.
Jiren, UI Goku and SSBE Vegeta are all stated or shown to be above a God of Destruction. No comparison to Beerus specifically is necessary. It goes without saying.

Regardless, suppressed Jiren was stated to be above the realm of God of Destruction and so was UI Goku.
There's no reason to even entertain your position of Beerus supposedly being stronger than everyone stated to be stronger than him, even though the power of a God of Destruction is stated to be inferior to the power of the former mentioned.

I'm not stating Beerus is stronger or weaker. It's you throwing that fanon around based on generic statements, compared to gods in general. When we know levels differ and because of that a direct statement is needed when comparing to an individual. Lol the Grand priest doesn't need to be stated he is stronger than Yamcha cause he was DIRECTLY stated to be second behind Zeno. Your comparisons aren't proof of anything.

Wait, that's proof in your eyes? that is proof that Whis lied???? he did know that Belmond is physically stronger than Beerus(Beerus never claimed that he was holding back, that it was a tie or that Belmond cheated, he lost fair and square), and then you find out that Jiren cleans the floor with Belmond, in an arm-wrestling match red aura Jiren would rip off Beerus's arm.

Wow, when arm wrestling match = actual combat strength, you know the Dragonball fandom got problems. This is why Beerus contradicted Whis. It was only in arm wrestling, meaning it wasn't actual combat.
Whis didn't even know which mortal and verse until he confirmed the "rumor" about Jiren resisting the Genki dama. Whis was outright wrong about Beerus situation.

[Kenneth La Torre]

One thing i would like to point out to anyone anout scaling, is that one ahoudl not compare the manga to the anime. Its been shown from time to time that they vary quite a lot in terms of powers.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I would like to say, that even tho i heavily disagree with miracles, he isnt really wrong in saying what he says. I mean, the leap in power to be beyond hakaishin is so huge that it should have been something the anime stated outright (tho it was hinted a couple of times). Why have second source material (which is still official) be the way to state where such important characters stand in terms of power? It would only take off about 5 seconds of the epsidoe to have whis outright state “goku has surpassed the power of the gods”. To me thats just them being lazy.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I don't see how that proves anything. "This is his power as a God of Destruction" was said since Vegeta is fighting Toppo, so that's who he's addressing. In no way does this justify some colossal difference between the Gods. There are differences between the Gods, but every statement regarding their power puts all of them on the same level. Hence all of the general blanket statements like "A God of Destruction can't reach this level".

Toppo is stated to be no different from any of the other Gods. In terms of everything, he is no different from a God of Destruction and that includes strength.

We don't need a direct comparison statement to know that the Grand Priest is stronger than Yamcha.
Jiren, UI Goku and SSBE Vegeta are all stated or shown to be above a God of Destruction. No comparison to Beerus specifically is necessary. It goes without saying.

Regardless, suppressed Jiren was stated to be above the realm of God of Destruction and so was UI Goku.
There's no reason to even entertain your position of Beerus supposedly being stronger than everyone stated to be stronger than him, even though the power of a God of Destruction is stated to be inferior to the power of the former mentioned.

I'm not stating Beerus is stronger or weaker. It's you throwing that fanon around based on generic statements, compared to gods in general. When we know levels differ and because of that a direct statement is needed when comparing to an individual. Lol the Grand priest doesn't need to be stated he is stronger than Yamcha cause he was DIRECTLY stated to be second behind Zeno. Your comparisons aren't proof of anything.

And Goku and Jiren don't need to be specifically compared to Beerus when:
1. Their power is stated to be beyond a God of Destruction.
2. Their power is shown to be far beyond SSBE Vegeta, whom beat someone who was stated to be no different from a God of Destruction.

Unless you're claiming that Beerus isn't a God of Destruction, then the statement logically encompasses him and every other God of Destruction. The "differences" among the Gods aren't relevant to that statement.

[Hugo Boss]

This bit about Beerus wondering if Goku had surpassed him comes from one of those spoiler summaries that viralize around a week before the episodes aired. Not only the line didn’t came to the episode it was referred to, but Goku can’t freely use Ultra Instinct, just like Beerus. So, I would be more careful before telling to take seriously what those summaries say.

[Miracles]

And Goku and Jiren don't need to be specifically compared to Beerus when:
1. Their power is stated to be beyond a God of Destruction.
2. Their power is shown to be far beyond SSBE Vegeta, whom beat someone who was stated to be no different from a God of Destruction.

Unless you're claiming that Beerus isn't a God of Destruction, then the statement logically encompasses him and every other God of Destruction. The "differences" among the Gods aren't relevant to that statement.

The differences are bedrock in terms of relevancy. Vegeta beat a god of destruction of Toppo's level. Was stated to surpass the level of gods too, does not mean he is beating the rest of the gods. It's just another example of generics. You need quotable's that define their power in direct comparison to other characters.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

And Goku and Jiren don't need to be specifically compared to Beerus when:
1. Their power is stated to be beyond a God of Destruction.
2. Their power is shown to be far beyond SSBE Vegeta, whom beat someone who was stated to be no different from a God of Destruction.

Unless you're claiming that Beerus isn't a God of Destruction, then the statement logically encompasses him and every other God of Destruction. The "differences" among the Gods aren't relevant to that statement.

The differences are bedrock in terms of relevancy. Vegeta beat a god of destruction of Toppo's level. Was stated to surpass the level of gods too, does not mean he is beating the rest of the gods. It's just another example of generics. You need quotable's that define their power in direct comparison to other characters.

No, you don't need a direct Beerus comparison just like the Grand Priest doesn't need to be compared to Yamcha. Again unless you're claiming that Beerus isn't a God of Destruction, the statement encompasses him. The "differences" between the Gods are irrelevant.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't know, I think this is one of those cases where "Show, Don't Tell" is in full effect.

Nobody wants to outright say that Beerus was surpassed, because he hadn't been up until this point; he was on too much of a pedestal, narratively speaking.

Instead, they (at least Toei, anyways) have crafted a scenario where Goku has silently gone past Beerus's level by introducing a character (Jiren) who by all accounts is stronger than the enigmatic Hakaishin of Universe 7, thus necessitating that Goku attain a form that can beat even him.

Nothing's ever outright said, but I think the narrative trend favours the subtle and indirect approach more.