Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[mahakaishin1991]

The Universe 6 arc didnt have a new transformation.

Berserker broly mode doesnt mean anythign to you, apparently

That didn’t appear in the Universe 6 arc. I also dont know why he’s talking about JUST the Universe 6 arc because they come back in the T.o.P

kaioken blue counts right?

[Vegeta_Sama]

Berserker broly mode doesnt mean anythign to you, apparently

That didn’t appear in the Universe 6 arc. I also dont know why he’s talking about JUST the Universe 6 arc because they come back in the T.o.P

kaioken blue counts right?

It's a technique stacked onto a transfornation, so no, it doesn't count.

[PFM18]

That didn’t appear in the Universe 6 arc. I also dont know why he’s talking about JUST the Universe 6 arc because they come back in the T.o.P

kaioken blue counts right?

It's a technique stacked onto a transfornation, so no, it doesn't count.

Exactly. It doesn't count. And it doesnt make sense to go in to every DBS story expecting a new transformation. (Or atleast not for our main characters.) The main cast of characters in DBS went 3 straight arcs without a new form so I have no idea why theres this stigma about Super having so many new forms.

[ZeroNeonix]

kaioken blue counts right?

It's a technique stacked onto a transfornation, so no, it doesn't count.

Exactly. It doesn't count. And it doesnt make sense to go in to every DBS story expecting a new transformation. (Or atleast not for our main characters.) The main cast of characters in DBS went 3 straight arcs without a new form so I have no idea why theres this stigma about Super having so many new forms.

There were a lot of new forms. Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rage, Super Saiyan Berserker + its calmer form, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution, Ultra Instinct. Even if you don't count Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken as a transformation, even though it a new level of power with a unique aesthetic and it functions exactly the same as any other transformation, that's still a lot of transformations. Super Saiyan God was barely even out the door before Super Saiyan Blue came and made it obsolete.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It's a technique stacked onto a transfornation, so no, it doesn't count.

Exactly. It doesn't count. And it doesnt make sense to go in to every DBS story expecting a new transformation. (Or atleast not for our main characters.) The main cast of characters in DBS went 3 straight arcs without a new form so I have no idea why theres this stigma about Super having so many new forms.

There were a lot of new forms. Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rage, Super Saiyan Berserker + its calmer form, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution, Ultra Instinct. Even if you don't count Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken as a transformation, even though it a new level of power with a unique aesthetic and it functions exactly the same as any other transformation, that's still a lot of transformations. Super Saiyan God was barely even out the door before Super Saiyan Blue came and made it obsolete.

SSG/SSGSS were hold overs from the Z movie so they don't really count. SSGSS.E and SSR were extensions of previous forms looking very similar in appearance (no different to these old grade form extensions heck Vegeta's hair is even reminiscent of Super Vegeta's hair), Kale's berserk form was a parody of Broly so it wasn't in a sense a "new" form to the audience and her controlled power was just her version of SS2 just retaining the green hair.

[PFM18]

It's a technique stacked onto a transfornation, so no, it doesn't count.

Exactly. It doesn't count. And it doesnt make sense to go in to every DBS story expecting a new transformation. (Or atleast not for our main characters.) The main cast of characters in DBS went 3 straight arcs without a new form so I have no idea why theres this stigma about Super having so many new forms.

There were a lot of new forms. Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rage, Super Saiyan Berserker + its calmer form, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution, Ultra Instinct. Even if you don't count Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken as a transformation, even though it a new level of power with a unique aesthetic and it functions exactly the same as any other transformation, that's still a lot of transformations. Super Saiyan God was barely even out the door before Super Saiyan Blue came and made it obsolete.

It makes absolutely no sense to consider the forms of characters that are antagonists or not part of the main cast. If we are going to do that, then DBZ had WAYYY too many transformations. Vegeta in the 1st arc had a transformation, Freeza had 4 transformations, Cell had 2, and Buu had 2. So including Super Saiyan Rose, Berseker, or Rage makes no sense.

Super has had 4 transformations:

Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
Ultra Instinct

DBZ had 4 transformations:

Super Saiyan
Ascended Super Saiyan (Grade 2)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

This premise about DBS having an abnormal amount of transformations compared to what was previously established in the series just isn't grounded in reality.

[ZeroNeonix]

It makes absolutely no sense to consider the forms of characters that are antagonists or not part of the main cast. If we are going to do that, then DBZ had WAYYY too many transformations. Vegeta in the 1st arc had a transformation, Freeza had 4 transformations, Cell had 2, and Buu had 2. So including Super Saiyan Rose, Berseker, or Rage makes no sense.

Super has had 4 transformations:

Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
Ultra Instinct

DBZ had 4 transformations:

Super Saiyan
Ascended Super Saiyan (Grade 2)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

This premise about DBS having an abnormal amount of transformations compared to what was previously established in the series just isn't grounded in reality.

Even if we conveniently ignore the Saiyan transformations of Kale, lump the Omen and Complete versions of Ultra Instinct together as one transformation, and go with your lists (plus Super Saiyan Rage), there's one factor you're not taking into account. Time. Dragon Ball Z has 291 episodes, while Super currently has 131 episodes. Super has more transformations and nearly half the number of episodes. There's a reason people are starting to feel that Super has gone a little overboard with the Saiyan transformations. It's because we've had less time to process and appreciate each new form. Heck, Super Saiyan God was only used once in the anime until its brief return in the Tournament of Power, and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution was inferior to Ultra Instinct Complete from the get-go.

[PFM18]

It makes absolutely no sense to consider the forms of characters that are antagonists or not part of the main cast. If we are going to do that, then DBZ had WAYYY too many transformations. Vegeta in the 1st arc had a transformation, Freeza had 4 transformations, Cell had 2, and Buu had 2. So including Super Saiyan Rose, Berseker, or Rage makes no sense.

Super has had 4 transformations:

Super Saiyan GodThere
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
Ultra Instinct

DBZ had 4 transformations:

Super Saiyan
Ascended Super Saiyan (Grade 2)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

This premise about DBS having an abnormal amount of transformations compared to what was previously established in the series just isn't grounded in reality.

Even if we conveniently ignore the Saiyan transformations of Kale, lump the Omen and Complete versions of Ultra Instinct together as one transformation, and go with your lists (plus Super Saiyan Rage), there's one factor you're not taking into account. Time. Dragon Ball Z has 291 episodes, while Super currently has 131 episodes. Super has more transformations and nearly half the number of episodes. There's a reason people are starting to feel that Super has gone a little overboard with the Saiyan transformations. It's because we've had less time to process and appreciate each new form. Heck, Super Saiyan God was only used once in the anime until its brief return in the Tournament of Power, and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution was inferior to Ultra Instinct Complete from the get-go.

There's nothing "convenient" about ignoring Kale's transformations. She is an antagonist and it doesn't make any sense to be including her for the same reason that we do not include Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, and Buu's transformations. (Or Goku Black's transformation.) The antagonists always have transformations that is just how it is. Also, I didn't include Future Trunks because he isn't a main stay he was only for that arc. But if we go by your "rules" of including Super Saiyan Rage and Ultra Instinct Omen, then it would only make sense to include Trunks's transformation and the Dragon Ball Z equivalent of Ultra Intinct Omen/Completed Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan and Mastered Super Saiyan. Unless of course you want to be blatantly biased and have an unfair comparison. Then going by your rules things look like this:

Dragon Ball Super:

Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
Super Saiyan Rage
Ultra Instinct Omen
Completed Ultra Instinct

Dragon Ball Z

Super Saiyan
Ascended Super Saiyan (Grade 2)
Ultra Super Saiyan(Grade 3)
Mastered Super Saiyan(Grade 4)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

So now it is 6 for each if you go by your rules. And your point about time is a moot point because it is simply a function of the snail pacing that Dragon Ball Z had when compared to Super. DBZ had 4 story arcs, DBS had 5 story arcs, and each one had 4 transformations.(or 6 if you like going by your rules) If anything, because Z had fewer story arcs but the same amount of transformations, then DBZ had too many transformations.

This frequent transformation thing is not some kind of new revelation it is simply carrying on with the precedent that was set by Dragon Ball Z. The Dragon Ball franchise is known for the transformations that is just how it is.

[AnimeNation101]

It makes absolutely no sense to consider the forms of characters that are antagonists or not part of the main cast. If we are going to do that, then DBZ had WAYYY too many transformations. Vegeta in the 1st arc had a transformation, Freeza had 4 transformations, Cell had 2, and Buu had 2. So including Super Saiyan Rose, Berseker, or Rage makes no sense.

Super has had 4 transformations:

Super Saiyan GodThere
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
Ultra Instinct

DBZ had 4 transformations:

Super Saiyan
Ascended Super Saiyan (Grade 2)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

This premise about DBS having an abnormal amount of transformations compared to what was previously established in the series just isn't grounded in reality.

Even if we conveniently ignore the Saiyan transformations of Kale, lump the Omen and Complete versions of Ultra Instinct together as one transformation, and go with your lists (plus Super Saiyan Rage), there's one factor you're not taking into account. Time. Dragon Ball Z has 291 episodes, while Super currently has 131 episodes. Super has more transformations and nearly half the number of episodes. There's a reason people are starting to feel that Super has gone a little overboard with the Saiyan transformations. It's because we've had less time to process and appreciate each new form. Heck, Super Saiyan God was only used once in the anime until its brief return in the Tournament of Power, and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution was inferior to Ultra Instinct Complete from the get-go.

There's nothing "convenient" about ignoring Kale's transformations. She is an antagonist and it doesn't make any sense to be including her for the same reason that we do not include Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, and Buu's transformations. (Or Goku Black's transformation.) The antagonists always have transformations that is just how it is. Also, I didn't include Future Trunks because he isn't a main stay he was only for that arc. But if we go by your "rules" of including Super Saiyan Rage and Ultra Instinct Omen, then it would only make sense to include Trunks's transformation and the Dragon Ball Z equivalent of Ultra Intinct Omen/Completed Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan and Mastered Super Saiyan. Unless of course you want to be blatantly biased and have an unfair comparison. Then going by your rules things look like this:

Dragon Ball Super:

Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
Super Saiyan Rage
Ultra Instinct Omen
Completed Ultra Instinct

Dragon Ball Z

Super Saiyan
Ascended Super Saiyan (Grade 2)
Ultra Super Saiyan(Grade 3)
Mastered Super Saiyan(Grade 4)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

So now it is 6 for each if you go by your rules. And your point about time is a moot point because it is simply a function of the snail pacing that Dragon Ball Z had when compared to Super. DBZ had 4 story arcs, DBS had 5 story arcs, and each one had 4 transformations.(or 6 if you like going by your rules) If anything, because Z had fewer story arcs but the same amount of transformations, then DBZ had too many transformations.

This frequent transformation thing is not some kind of new revelation it is simply carrying on with the precedent that was set by Dragon Ball Z. The Dragon Ball franchise is known for the transformations that is just how it is.

Super had Rose

[PFM18]

Even if we conveniently ignore the Saiyan transformations of Kale, lump the Omen and Complete versions of Ultra Instinct together as one transformation, and go with your lists (plus Super Saiyan Rage), there's one factor you're not taking into account. Time. Dragon Ball Z has 291 episodes, while Super currently has 131 episodes. Super has more transformations and nearly half the number of episodes. There's a reason people are starting to feel that Super has gone a little overboard with the Saiyan transformations. It's because we've had less time to process and appreciate each new form. Heck, Super Saiyan God was only used once in the anime until its brief return in the Tournament of Power, and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution was inferior to Ultra Instinct Complete from the get-go.

There's nothing "convenient" about ignoring Kale's transformations. She is an antagonist and it doesn't make any sense to be including her for the same reason that we do not include Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, and Buu's transformations. (Or Goku Black's transformation.) The antagonists always have transformations that is just how it is. Also, I didn't include Future Trunks because he isn't a main stay he was only for that arc. But if we go by your "rules" of including Super Saiyan Rage and Ultra Instinct Omen, then it would only make sense to include Trunks's transformation and the Dragon Ball Z equivalent of Ultra Intinct Omen/Completed Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan and Mastered Super Saiyan. Unless of course you want to be blatantly biased and have an unfair comparison. Then going by your rules things look like this:

Dragon Ball Super:

Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
Super Saiyan Rage
Ultra Instinct Omen
Completed Ultra Instinct

Dragon Ball Z

Super Saiyan
Ascended Super Saiyan (Grade 2)
Ultra Super Saiyan(Grade 3)
Mastered Super Saiyan(Grade 4)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

So now it is 6 for each if you go by your rules. And your point about time is a moot point because it is simply a function of the snail pacing that Dragon Ball Z had when compared to Super. DBZ had 4 story arcs, DBS had 5 story arcs, and each one had 4 transformations.(or 6 if you like going by your rules) If anything, because Z had fewer story arcs but the same amount of transformations, then DBZ had too many transformations.

This frequent transformation thing is not some kind of new revelation it is simply carrying on with the precedent that was set by Dragon Ball Z. The Dragon Ball franchise is known for the transformations that is just how it is.

Super had Rose

I addressed that. Please read the entire post before responding.

[AnimeNation101]

There's nothing "convenient" about ignoring Kale's transformations. She is an antagonist and it doesn't make any sense to be including her for the same reason that we do not include Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, and Buu's transformations. (Or Goku Black's transformation.) The antagonists always have transformations that is just how it is. Also, I didn't include Future Trunks because he isn't a main stay he was only for that arc. But if we go by your "rules" of including Super Saiyan Rage and Ultra Instinct Omen, then it would only make sense to include Trunks's transformation and the Dragon Ball Z equivalent of Ultra Intinct Omen/Completed Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan and Mastered Super Saiyan. Unless of course you want to be blatantly biased and have an unfair comparison. Then going by your rules things look like this:

Dragon Ball Super:

Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
Super Saiyan Rage
Ultra Instinct Omen
Completed Ultra Instinct

Dragon Ball Z

Super Saiyan
Ascended Super Saiyan (Grade 2)
Ultra Super Saiyan(Grade 3)
Mastered Super Saiyan(Grade 4)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3

So now it is 6 for each if you go by your rules. And your point about time is a moot point because it is simply a function of the snail pacing that Dragon Ball Z had when compared to Super. DBZ had 4 story arcs, DBS had 5 story arcs, and each one had 4 transformations.(or 6 if you like going by your rules) If anything, because Z had fewer story arcs but the same amount of transformations, then DBZ had too many transformations.

This frequent transformation thing is not some kind of new revelation it is simply carrying on with the precedent that was set by Dragon Ball Z. The Dragon Ball franchise is known for the transformations that is just how it is.

Super had Rose

I addressed that. Please read the entire post before responding.

I missed it since it wasn’t in the quote. Anyways, i dont think Mastered SSJ should count, transformations tend to have physical differences from the norm. Mastered UI gives you silver hair, a power increase, and instinctive attacking technique compared to Omen. Mastered SSJ doesn’t really increase power, doesn’t add any new technique, and doesn’t physically change anything. All it is is a mastered ssj. Its just ssj but mastered.

Notice how for UI, its called Ultra instinct and Ultra Instinct Omen, not Mastered Ultra Instinct and Ultra instinct.

So yeah, the Mastered SSJ thing really shouldn’t be there or be compared to the whole UI situation. At least with Ultra Super Saiyan, you bulk up which is a strength increase and shows a physical different from ssj.

Now, of we’re also counting the manga, you could add mastered ssb to the Super list.

[PFM18]

Super had Rose

I addressed that. Please read the entire post before responding.

I missed it since it wasn’t in the quote. Anyways, i dont think Mastered SSJ should count, transformations tend to have physical differences from the norm. Mastered UI gives you silver hair, a power increase, and instinctive attacking technique compared to Omen. Mastered SSJ doesn’t really increase power, doesn’t add any new technique, and doesn’t physically change anything. All it is is a mastered ssj. Its just ssj but mastered.

Notice how for UI, its called Ultra instinct and Ultra Instinct Omen, not Mastered Ultra Instinct and Ultra instinct.

So yeah, the Mastered SSJ thing really shouldn’t be there or be compared to the whole UI situation. At least with Ultra Super Saiyan, you bulk up which is a strength increase and shows a physical different from ssj.

Now, of we’re also counting the manga, you could add mastered ssb to the Super list.

Actually it was in the quote. I addressed it in both posts I had.

I dont think Mastered SSJ and UI Omen should be counted either, but based on the criteria he gave they both should be included. Realistically both series really introduced 4 truly "new" transformations. Super did it in 5 arcs and Z did it in 4. Both series introduce forms at about the same rate in terms of the story and this emphasis on transformations is not new to DBS in any way. It is just another example of something people come up with just to complain about whilw disregarding the facts/context of the situation.

[ZeroNeonix]

I'm not one to complain just for the sake of complaining. I enjoyed Super a lot, but the series is far from perfect and I can see it for it's faults. So you can abandon that strawman.

Also, counting arcs instead of episodes just to fit your narrative is just not honest. Z had nearly twice the number of episodes. Not a single transformation went to waste, which is more than could be said for Super. The two handled transformations in different ways. In Z, new forms had more time in between them, and they always made the user have a badass moment before the villain found a way to catch up. In Super, new transformations were used to catch up the hero to the villain. Super Saiyan God helped close the gap between Goku and Beerus' power. Super Saiyan Blue helped him close the gap between his power and Frieza's. Super Saiyan Rage closed the gap between Trunks and the blue Saiyans. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution closed the gap between Vegeta and Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku. This made them feel cheap as a result.

[mahakaishin1991]

I'm not one to complain just for the sake of complaining. I enjoyed Super a lot, but the series is far from perfect and I can see it for it's faults. So you can abandon that strawman.

Also, counting arcs instead of episodes just to fit your narrative is just not honest. Z had nearly twice the number of episodes. Not a single transformation went to waste, which is more than could be said for Super. The two handled transformations in different ways. In Z, new forms had more time in between them, and they always made the user have a badass moment before the villain found a way to catch up. In Super, new transformations were used to catch up the hero to the villain. Super Saiyan God helped close the gap between Goku and Beerus' power. Super Saiyan Blue helped him close the gap between his power and Frieza's. Super Saiyan Rage closed the gap between Trunks and the blue Saiyans. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution closed the gap between Vegeta and Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku. This made them feel cheap as a result.

Z's episode count is meaningless as a comparison due to the sheer amount of filler that was put in, Super doesnt have that problem, so naturally its a shorter series.

You can compare Kai to Super for a better example and it becomes 167 to 131

[AnimeNation101]

I addressed that. Please read the entire post before responding.

I missed it since it wasn’t in the quote. Anyways, i dont think Mastered SSJ should count, transformations tend to have physical differences from the norm. Mastered UI gives you silver hair, a power increase, and instinctive attacking technique compared to Omen. Mastered SSJ doesn’t really increase power, doesn’t add any new technique, and doesn’t physically change anything. All it is is a mastered ssj. Its just ssj but mastered.

Notice how for UI, its called Ultra instinct and Ultra Instinct Omen, not Mastered Ultra Instinct and Ultra instinct.

So yeah, the Mastered SSJ thing really shouldn’t be there or be compared to the whole UI situation. At least with Ultra Super Saiyan, you bulk up which is a strength increase and shows a physical different from ssj.

Now, of we’re also counting the manga, you could add mastered ssb to the Super list.

Actually it was in the quote. I addressed it in both posts I had.

I dont think Mastered SSJ and UI Omen should be counted either, but based on the criteria he gave they both should be included. Realistically both series really introduced 4 truly "new" transformations. Super did it in 5 arcs and Z did it in 4. Both series introduce forms at about the same rate in terms of the story and this emphasis on transformations is not new to DBS in any way. It is just another example of something people come up with just to complain about whilw disregarding the facts/context of the situation.

No. I’m saying that Mastered SSJ shouldn’t count but both UI and UI Omen are different enough to be called transformations. At the very least, UI is an evolution of UI Omen. But i also kind of agree with you. While pacing is important, i don’t think Super’s pacing for transformations was that bad.

[majinwarman]

So Universe 6 doesnt mean anything to you?

What about Universe 6?

The Universe 6 arc didnt have a new transformation.

You are not wrong but I think that most people still consider Blue Kaioken as the new thing during that arc.

[PFM18]

What about Universe 6?

The Universe 6 arc didnt have a new transformation.

You are not wrong but I think that most people still consider Blue Kaioken as the new thing during that arc.

It was a new thing. But it was a "new thing" in the sense that anything else, like any new character is a "new thing." But at the end of the day it was not a transformation.

[Vegeta_Sama]

What about Universe 6?

The Universe 6 arc didnt have a new transformation.

You are not wrong but I think that most people still consider Blue Kaioken as the new thing during that arc.

New thing =\= transformation

[Zelvin]

I tend to refer to Vegeta's upgrade SSB form as just Ultra Blue. Since he's more buff like Super Vegeta when he fought Cell, which was also called Ultra Super Saiyan. Could even just call it Ultra SSB. Ultra Blue for short.

[Mister_Popo]

I tend to refer to Vegeta's upgrade SSB form as just Ultra Blue. Since he's more buff like Super Vegeta when he fought Cell, which was also called Ultra Super Saiyan. Could even just call it Ultra SSB. Ultra Blue for short.

But Ulta SSJ1 isn't twice SSJ1, whilst SSJBE matches at least SSJB Kaioken 20. It just isn't comparable. Some people tend to think Vegeta's SSJBE is comparable with a SSJB1 or SSJB2-form (combined with God-Ki), i think it's something different / new all the way. It's a SSJ-transformation combined with God-Ki, that part is true, but it's not comparable with the traditional SSJ-grades, it's rather an all new transformation for my part. I personally also think SSJ Blue is not 50 times SSJ God, rather 2-5 times God, but that's a matter of perception.