What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

[Logania]

Tao Pai Pai is also a reoccurring villain who, after being defeated by Son Goku, comes back for revenge in a cyborg body. Sounds vaguely familiar.

[ABED]

I would say a necessary reboot would be one that oocurs when a property still has value, but the quality has been on decline for a period of time causing a negative effect on sales. Like the Halloween movies getting a reboot this year and James Cameron with the Terminator franchise, where everything beyond T2 doesn't matter.

But how do you determine what has value?

The point I'm driving at is US superhero comics and DB are two different things. DB is one story primarily written by one man. DC and Marvel stories are written by many different writers with varying takes on the characters. The continuity is loose to begin with, and after a while, no matter how simple, the canon becomes convoluted over time. I think people put too much emphasis on canon and continuity in comics.

As to Logania's point, yeah, they brought back Tao Pai Pai, but at least he wasn't a main villain.

We all have our preferences and that's fine, but my problem with DB isn't that it's made a recurring villain out of Freeza, it's that it made a recurring villain when DB hadn't done so in the past, at least not on this level. It's the radical shift that bugs me. It's one thing if it had been that way from the outset, but it was something that became something else.

[Toxin45]

You're correct, I haven't. Considering the fact that comics haven't changed at all since I quit reading my point still stands true.

But hey, who am I to judge. Enjoy your Batman version of Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner. I'm sure The Joker will get his hands on Batman any day now, no matter how many poorly written stories and pointless reboots he has to suffer through. There's a Batman movie out where he's a ninja now, i'm sure that will keep The Joker's character fresh for another week!

What is the difference between a necessary reboot and a pointless reboot?

I would say a necessary reboot would be one that oocurs when a property still has value, but the quality has been on decline for a period of time causing a negative effect on sales. Like the Halloween movies getting a reboot this year and James Cameron with the Terminator franchise, where everything beyond T2 doesn't matter.

An example of an unnecessary reboot would be DMC: Devil may Cry. DMC4 was one of the best selling games of the franchise, but due to mixed reviews CAPCOM rebooted the whole thing. Fans weren't happy and didn't buy the reboot, it died upon release.

New 52 from DC is another unnecessary reboot. You don't delete an entire mutiverse canon due to a few years of bad writing causing everything to become a tangled mess. You simply start telling simpler stories instead. Simple story telling is one of DB's most notable traits and something fans have always seen as a positive to the franchise.

@Toxin45, I don't get the point of your reply. If you're trying to make a case for a recurring villain in DB being something fans want, you chose odd examples. People hated the F arc of Super and found the movie version underwelming, and this forum was filled with endless hate towards the Pilaf gang every week before ToP whenever they had any screen time. The Pilaf gang don't do much these days in the ways of villiany, Goku and Bulma don't recognize who they are and haven't been given reason to.

Freeza being alive again after ToP means little if he isn't going to do anything. Building an army in the middle of nowhere space and showing up every now and then to talk to Goku will be a waste of time. Him getting killed again and sent back to Hell would also be a waste of time and devalue the character greatly. Not sure if you have your own ideas on how to make Freeza interesting again. Personally, i'm stumped.

He is gonna appear in the upcoming movie.

[Toxin45]

Tao Pai Pai is also a reoccurring villain who, after being defeated by Son Goku, comes back for revenge in a cyborg body. Sounds vaguely familiar.

This was before Frieza was even a thing though. I wonder how cell would fair though.

[Logania]

Tao Pai Pai is also a reoccurring villain who, after being defeated by Son Goku, comes back for revenge in a cyborg body. Sounds vaguely familiar.

This was before Frieza was even a thing though.

Which makes Freeza's similar reappearence even worse lol

[Toxin45]

Tao Pai Pai is also a reoccurring villain who, after being defeated by Son Goku, comes back for revenge in a cyborg body. Sounds vaguely familiar.

This was before Frieza was even a thing though.

Which makes Freeza's similar reappearence even worse lol

Then his reappearance in rof and top also cell would still be evil anyway if he did return.

[Kunzait_83]

Bunch of stuff

Screw it, I'll bite.

Out of morbid curiosity, would you mind sharing with the rest of the class what exactly IS it with your weird obsession with Freeza?

I mean look, I like Freeza. A whole lot. As does the VAST majority of both this forum and the DB fandom at large overall. Freeza's a well liked, popular character, and for good reason. He's well designed, he's got a killer and well fleshed out personality, a bunch of cool fighting techniques, and his interactions and overall chemistry with Goku is generally compelling and fun. They both make excellent foils for one another whenever they're on screen together.

But even with ALL that being said... you can potentially have the coolest, most excellently fleshed out character in the world at your disposal and STILL end up misusing him/her to a point where what made them so compelling in the first place ends up getting cheapened and worn thin after awhile. People keep bringing up the Joker in these kinds of threads for a damn good reason: he is indeed one of the all time greatest and most iconic Western superhero comic book supervillains, but he's CERTAINLY lost at least SOME of his luster over the years due to bad usage of him by subpar writers and storylines. The Joker's far from alone on that score: movie villains like Freddy Krueger have also suffered from similar issues. The list of good villains used in a poor manner by a badly written story is near endless.

The point being, most of us in these threads ALL generally love Freeza: the issue isn't that anyone here thinks that Freeza is somehow a bad character at all. People here (myself included) generally just think that Dragon Ball Super has, thus far, made pretty poor usage of him in the two major story arcs its had him appear in. And those uses have been bad enough to where people are (rightly and understandably) apprehensive enough that they'd rather Freeza not be used at all anymore than be used in such a poor manner. And they make this argument not because they don't like Freeza, but rather because they LIKE Freeza a lot and would rather not see him devalued as a character any further than he already has been.

Yes, we're all aware that he's going to apparently put in an appearance in the upcoming DB Super movie. No however, we don't REALLY know to what extent he'll play a role in it, and beyond that... considering how badly he's been treated in the Revival of F and Tournament of Power arcs, people are understandably wary and concerned that he'll be similarly wasted in a bland, generic villain capacity in the upcoming Super movie.

And when people say they don't like how Super has used Freeza, they DON'T mean that they feel he hasn't been shown kicking sufficient enough ass in fights or demonstrating "badass" enough "feats" or anything silly and dumb to that nature. Yes, obviously if all someone wants to see is Freeza doing more badass stuff in fights and doesn't care about anything else beyond that, then you'll get plenty of that in Super. What people are talking about rather is the manner in which the actual STORY has made use of him, the role he's played in the plotline, the lack of development to his character, etc.

The Tournament of Power sort of TEASED at doing something interesting with his character... but never ended up delivering on it. By the end of the arc, he's literally RIGHT BACK to where he started the whole series at: in command of his space empire, ready to cause more trouble later on. Nothing's really "changed" about who he is as a character, nothing truly interesting or different was done with him, other than seeing him be forced to interact with Goku and the other Z Warriors in a co-operative context for a little while.

And indeed, in fairness, that WAS kinda cool for a little while... the scene where Baba first returns Freeza to the living world (probably one of the best individual scenes in all of Super up to this point), his back and forth verbal sparring with Vegeta, his teaming up with and saving Gohan, and his fight with Toppo in the tournament (probably one of the rare times we've ever seen Freeza presented as a straight up underdog in a fight)... all super fun moments in isolation.

But the problem is, for all those cool individual moments, the whole thing with having Freeza team up with the main cast never actually ended up going anywhere or paying off to any substantial long term development to his character or storyline; by the end of the tournament Freeza, again, ended up right back at square one, with nothing changed or developed regarding his personality or his relationship with Goku and the others (that has been demonstrated so far at least: later material COULD have this go somewhere, but there's no way to really know that it will, and it doesn't seem likely given how "safe" Super has elected to play so far). Which ultimately made the whole thing feel kinda pointless and like the story just spinning its wheels and treading water rather than actually progressing somewhere or evolving Freeza as a character.

My question to you is: why exactly IS it that you feel so compelled to answer back to every single solitary post that has even something MILDLY negative to say about how Freeza's been used in Super so far? I ask because you've yet to divulge any substantive reason for why you disagree with any of people's specific criticisms. You keep constantly sniping back with what essentially amounts to "Nuh uh! Freeza's back now and he's gonna be in the new movie!"

You haven't said a single word about why it is you feel that the Revival of F or Tournament of Power arcs have actually made GOOD use of Freeza from a storytelling/character building perspective. And yet you keep popping back up in thread after thread, constantly sniping back at people's (generally well thought out and reasoned) critiques like some kind of obsessive fanboy who doesn't care WHAT gets done with Freeza, just so long as he's there and kicking people's asses in fights.

So I'm gonna ask this to you, Toxin45, as directly and plainly as I can: what is it about Freeza specifically that has you this fixated and entranced, and what is it about what Super has done with him that has you coming to his defense in all these threads and sniping at everyone's dissenting thoughts on the matter?

Try to answer in detail if you can, not just with a sentence or two about "Well time's change and now Freeza's back!" or some similarly inane and nonsensical sentiment. We know. WE KNOW. Super brought back Freeza. Freeza's now the "recurring villain" of Super. He's gonna be back in the movie at the end of the year. We got it. Eeeeeeeveryone and their dog here knows all this already. 10-4.

The thing is, people have been constantly expressing, at length and in painstaking, thought out detail, why they think it is that Super bringing back Freeza as a recurring villain is a BAD STORYTELLING CHOICE on Super's end. Most people around here know where they stand on this and why. We all know where you stand on the matter (its awesome and more Freeza is a good thing no matter what), but what I want to know is WHY. WHY do you think that Super has used him well so far, apart from his fight scenes that is?

I'm giving you the chance to have full control of the floor here and make your case - in detail - for why it is that Dragon Ball's story benefits from having Freeza constantly come back over and over again to continually pester the heroes.... seemingly in a similar fashion as some Saturday morning cartoon villains like the aforementioned Team Rocket from Pokemon or whatever.

Go ahead man. The floor is yours. Have at it.

[Toxin45]

Bunch of stuff

Screw it, I'll bite.

Out of morbid curiosity, would you mind sharing with the rest of the class what exactly IS it with your weird obsession with Freeza?

<SNIP>

Go ahead man. The floor is yours. Have at it.

Well the revival the f arc was okay and Frieza returning in the tournament of power wasn't wasted he pretty much got what he wanted he got his life back and rebuilds his empire like Frieza but saying having a weird obsession is stupid. Also the tournament of power did not poorly used him that sure he may have not usurped the gods like he wanted but he still got his life back as a reward and your really thing he would be poorly used in the upcoming movie most people outside of this site actually liked Frieza in the tournament of power dude because it helped fans got over his issues in ressurection f and started to like him again. So what you say is just simply a negative opinion. Also dragon ball is not a Saturday morning cartoon and you talk way too much toriyama brought Frieza back twice so don't be a negative I am sure toriyama won't screw up Frieza this time and also the reason I believe was to give goku an arch enemy and plus he can train now if the time comes. Also you very wrong on how Frieza was handled in the tournament of power he became more pragmatic and dosen't repeat the same mistakes he did but comparing to a cartoon villain that is just stupid also pilaf gang were team rocket not Frieza so comparing them is irrelevant. Also stop talking in long sentence Frieza be improved in later years and you being a wary can does nothing I just like Frieza for being a classical evil space emperor. It's not really a bad choice once you get used to it but simply Turning him into a good guy is really going too far we had enough of villains Turning into heroes and it was getting tiresome with Frieza defying that thing it was okay and it was a nice change of pace also Frieza did get some character development in that he is more smarter than previous appearances and takes training very seriously. also that is simply opinion not a fact by what you said. If they brought back cell I wouldn't mind also ressurection f wasn't perfect I know but seeing Frieza again I didn't mind due to his potential in trading to grow stronger and seeing him again in the tournament improving a little bit I didn't except whis to revive him though so that was a nice suprise. All that said super had it's flaw but it did had it's moments like people from outside this website wants to see cell again to become rep want like android 17 and Frieza seriously I watched YouTube videos on why cell should return and beerus resurrecting Frieza made some sense that the Frieza force was made up from the various races from universe 7 and being the Emperor was kinda the government of the universe so yeah. Super making Frieza a recurring villain I don't mind it's not the first time look at tao and pilaf gang when they were villains back then now with Frieza being the only unreformed villain in the series alive was kinda a broken streak on reforming villains. Even if new arc villains show up Frieza will now play a role in later arcs as the overraching villain of the franchise. Also I don't mind the cell fans wanting cell to return too es ally based on how fighterz would handle it the interactions between past villains and heroes was kinda interesting to say the least. So I love all of dragon ball cha attends goku,vegeta,Gohan,etc but I also love the villains king piccolo ,Frieza,cell etc. Frieza is the face of dragon ball villains in the video games he is the most seen in video game versions And frost of universe 6 is alive so would Frieza at the end their counterparts so it would only be balanced. Also did you read Neko Majin about his son kuriza it could become canon now at this point introducing Frieza's son kuriza so I guess that is why super revived Frieza again to tie into His son kuriza. Look at naruto and one piece they most recurring villains like Blackbeard and Orochimaru and even newer shows and mangas like my hero academia which is based on western comics have recurring villains like tomura shigaraki,Dabi,and himiko. I think modern dragon ball trying to experiment with that type of major recurring villains with Frieza.

[ABED]

Sometimes having a villain be one and done is the way to go. The classic example is Professor Moriarty. He's referenced in a few stories, but he's only the primary villain in one.

Other villains have been brought back, but never to this extent. Okay, maybe Pilaf, but Pilaf was a gag villain to begin with.

I don't have an issue with The Joker being a Saturday morning cartoon villain if in fact he is in a Saturday morning cartoon.

[Toxin45]

Sometimes having a villain be one and done is the way to go. The classic example is Professor Moriarty. He's referenced in a few stories, but he's only the primary villain in one.

Other villains have been brought back, but never to this extent. Okay, maybe Pilaf, but Pilaf was a gag villain to begin with.

But now moriaty shows up in later stories after that one. Now Modern anime sometimes avert that like with naruto,one piece,hunter x hunter, and even newer anime and manga series like my hero academia has recurring villains with it being based on western superheroes also helps with this.

[ABED]

Okay, I'm breaking my vow as I think you might not resort to old tactics in this specific instance, but you're wrong. Moriarty doesn't show up after The Final Problem. All the stories written after The Final Problem take place prior to his death and he's either just mentioned or he is victorious. He's also never seen.

DB isn't a superhero story.

[Toxin45]

Okay, I'm breaking my vow as I think you might not resort to old tactics in this specific instance, but you're wrong. Moriarty doesn't show up after The Final Problem. All the stories written after The Final Problem take place prior to his death and he's either just mentioned or he is victorious. He's also never seen.

DB isn't a superhero story.

Errm not in modern stories after old canon and the book series having different writes. Well it is due to the high references like great saiyanman,ginyu force,magical girl,and pride troppers.Also the frequent goku comparison to superman.

[ABED]

I'm only talking about stories written by Doyle. The reason Sherlock Holmes has so many authors is because he's public domain and adaptations.

[Toxin45]

I'm only talking about stories written by Doyle.

Oh i know about that but in other adaptions like books and movies as well as tv shows and some games and comics he is the default villain of the seires. Well dragon ball isn't Sherlock Holmes it's a franchise the only other recurring villains besides Frieza are ginyu and tao and his brother the crane hermit but they were minor villains.

[ABED]

But the thing that made him so effective and memorable is because he was one and done. For years he was the man Sherlock had to give up his own life to stop. He wasn't continually trotted out until he wasn't as interesting as he used to be.

[Toxin45]

But the thing that made him so effective and memorable is because he was one and done. For years he was the man Sherlock had to give up his own life to stop. He wasn't continually trotted out until he wasn't as interesting as he used to be.

Yet this isn't Sherlock Holmes now is it? It's dragon ball it had become a multi media franchise. With that franchise also comes it's villain and it choose Frieza as it's default villain. Also adaptions count as recurring appearances nowadays. Also the other recurring villains in dragon ball are ginyu,Tao,and crane hermit tecniahlly as well as red ribbon organization.

[ABED]

It's simple, the law of diminishing marginal returns. it doesn't matter what franchise it is. No story is immune from that fact. Freeza isn't its default villain. It makes no sense to say he is. He was a late add and until Super, he wasn't nearly that prominent except for the occasional return where he was killed just as quickly.

The reason Moriarty is so memorable isn't because of the number of times he was in the stories. He's memorable because he was nearly Sherlock's equal and Sherlock nearly died in order to stop him. For years, he was considered dead. It was supposed to be Sherlock's swan song. The rationale for not making Moriarty a recurring villain is that it would make both hero and villain look less competent for not being able to defeat the other once and for all.

[Toxin45]

It's simple, the law of diminishing marginal returns. it doesn't matter what franchise it is. No story is immune from that fact. Freeza isn't its default villain. It makes no sense to say he is. He was a late add and until Super, he wasn't nearly that prominent except for the occasional return where he was killed just as quickly.

The reason Moriarty is so memorable isn't because of the number of times he was in the stories.

Yet nobody cares about the old stories dude it's about adaptions plus super made Frieza the default villain now dude. Stop being denial it happens I super twice dude and James is still below other villains you just kissing up. Frieza is the default villain now thanks to super dude did you keep forgetting that this is about dragon ball not Sherlock homes dude comparing that is irrelevant. Super pretty much made Frieza the default villain your just being in denial and it's time to accept that.

[Kunzait_83]

Well it is due to the high references like great saiyanman,ginyu force,magical girl,and pride troppers.Also the frequent goku comparison to superman.

Saiyaman is a very, very brief one-and-done joke of a character who's role is an incredibly minor one.

Likewise the Ginyu aren't superheroes themselves: they're a team of hired killers and mercenaries that Freeza uses in his employ. They only have the mannerisms of Japanese Sentai heroes as a joke: they themselves aren't a damn thing like superheroes, or superhero-related characters beyond the goofy poses.

The magical girl and Pride Trooper characters are only INCREDIBLY recent additions to the series, and hardly make the ENTIRETY of Dragon Ball stretching back to its beginnings suddenly and retroactively be all about superheroes. Nor are the storylines that they're actually involved in presently superhero narratives: they're still ultimately martial arts tournaments in a very decidedly Wuxia vein.

The Pride Troopers' superhero backgrounds are simply minor elements of character flavoring: they're still also martial artists themselves who's powers were acquired through martial arts training. Just like Freeza and his men are basically just cliche Wuxia despot villains given a sci fi space alien makeover, the Pride Troopers are still a martial arts team who simply have the superhero thing as a unique gimmick that fleshes out their backstories and motivations for competing in the tournament.

The story they take part in, itself, is still a martial arts story about warriors fighting for the entertainment and amusement of Eastern-style deities. There's no plotline where we follow their exploits to save the world from evil: if they ever return later on in the future and such a plotline DOES arise, I'm quite sure (if history with DB is any indicator) it will likely be something very, very minor and one-off-ish like with the Great Saiyaman, and not something that eats up a whole major story arc front and center.

Goku's origins getting compared to Superman's doesn't make Goku himself a superhero: literally everything else about Goku is still rooted in Eastern martial arts mysticism. That he was sent to Earth from a dying alien planet as a baby is literally the one and ONLY thing he has in common with Superman whatsoever (other than they can both bench-press a gazillion tons): they could not be two more diametrically different characters (from diametrically different genres) otherwise at their fundamental cores.

Goku's origin is nothing more deeper to his character beyond a cute reference and source of drama and turmoil for him in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs in DBZ. Nothing about it changes the fundamental nature of Dragon Ball's whole storyline and genre underpinnings, nor does it change anything about Goku's nature as a character. He's still a martial arts protagonist in a martial arts story who's entire reason for being is to become a better martial artist.

[Toxin45]

Well it is due to the high references like great saiyanman,ginyu force,magical girl,and pride troppers.Also the frequent goku comparison to superman.

Saiyaman is a very, very brief one-and-done joke of a character who's role is an incredibly minor one.

Likewise the Ginyu aren't superheroes themselves: they're a team of hired killers and mercenaries that Freeza uses in his employ. They only have the mannerisms of Japanese Sentai heroes as a joke: they themselves aren't a damn thing like superheroes, or superhero-related characters beyond the goofy poses.

The magical girl and Pride Trooper characters are only INCREDIBLY recent additions to the series, and hardly make the ENTIRETY of Dragon Ball stretching back to its beginnings suddenly and retroactively be all about superheroes. Nor are the storylines that they're actually involved in presently superhero narratives: they're still ultimately martial arts tournaments in a very decidedly Wuxia vein.

The Pride Troopers' superhero backgrounds are simply minor elements of character flavoring: they're still also martial artists themselves who's powers were acquired through martial arts training. Just like Freeza and his men are basically just cliche Wuxia despot villains given a sci fi space alien makeover, the Pride Troopers are still a martial arts team who simply have the superhero thing as a unique gimmick that fleshes out their backstories and motivations for competing in the tournament.

The story they take part in, itself, is still a martial arts story about warriors fighting for the entertainment and amusement of Eastern-style deities. There's no plotline where we follow their exploits to save the world from evil: if they ever return later on in the future and such a plotline DOES arise, I'm quite sure (if history with DB is any indicator) it will likely be something very, very minor and one-off-ish like with the Great Saiyaman, and not something that eats up a whole major story arc front and center.

Goku's origins getting compared to Superman's doesn't make Goku himself a superhero: literally everything else about Goku is still rooted in Eastern martial arts mysticism. That he was sent to Earth from a dying alien planet as a baby is literally the one and ONLY thing he has in common with Superman whatsoever (other than they can both bench-press a gazillion tons): they could not be two more diametrically different characters (from diametrically different genres) otherwise at their fundamental cores.

Goku's origin is nothing more deeper to his character beyond a cute reference and source of drama and turmoil for him in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs in DBZ. Nothing about it changes the fundamental nature of Dragon Ball's whole storyline and genre underpinnings.

Yet what you just say makes it would sound like a superhero story.