Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

[shadowfox87]

Well this rationalization is going to have to work for you to be honest. The characters of:

Android 17,Jiren,Golden Freeza,Toppo,Dyspo,Hit,Anilaza, and Kefla

All show that they are atleast on that God level or much stronger in some cases. And yet not a single one of them showed any indication of using God Ki.(In the case of Base Toppo) It is common place in the series to reach these godly levels without actually using God Ki. arguably there are even more regular ki users that reach that level. That's EIGHT characters that were on God level without using God Ki.

No it doesn't. I'm using manga logic, so that is simply not the case and the rationalization is completely different. To put Android 17 on full power Jiren level makes no sense to me. To put him even on SSB level makes no sense. In the manga, it is implied his is equal or above SSJ3 level. All of this overscaling and power scaling inconsistencies are coming from the anime. I'm looking forward to how ToP plays out in the manga. I know this isn't an anime vs manga debate. I've already stated that we agree to disagree. Characters without god ki can be above god level ex. Jiren. However, it isn't a god level bargain sale to give it to every character that Goku spars with. In the anime, SSB Goku is even utilized against Ribrianne, Bergamo, and several others. Are they all god level as well? In the manga, the Trio De Dangers were all eliminated without having to turn SSJ. Frost did most of the work. I know you don't want to discuss the manga, so I'll stop here since this thread is anime only.

[PFM18]

Well this rationalization is going to have to work for you to be honest. The characters of:

Android 17,Jiren,Golden Freeza,Toppo,Dyspo,Hit,Anilaza, and Kefla

All show that they are atleast on that God level or much stronger in some cases. And yet not a single one of them showed any indication of using God Ki.(In the case of Base Toppo) It is common place in the series to reach these godly levels without actually using God Ki. arguably there are even more regular ki users that reach that level. That's EIGHT characters that were on God level without using God Ki.

No it doesn't. I'm using manga logic, so that is simply not the case and the rationalization is completely different. To put Android 17 on full power Jiren level makes no sense to me. To put him even on SSB level makes no sense. In the manga, it is implied his is equal or above SSJ3 level. All of this overscaling and power scaling inconsistencies are coming from the anime. I'm looking forward to how ToP plays out in the manga. I know this isn't an anime vs manga debate. I've already stated that we agree to disagree. Characters without god ki can be above god level ex. Jiren. However, it isn't a god level bargain sale to give it to every character that Goku spars with. In the anime, SSB Goku is even utilized against Ribrianne, Bergamo, and several others. Are they all god level as well? In the manga, the Trio De Dangers were all eliminated without having to turn SSJ. Frost did most of the work. I know you don't want to discuss the manga, so I'll stop here since this thread is anime only.

outside of 17, All of the characters I mentioned are either already God Level in the manga or are going to be. You may dislike that there are these large power boosts but they are not "power scaling inconsistencies."

I know I said I didn't want to make this an anime vs manga thread but I wanted to clarify.

[PFM18]

I've said this before but both sides of the argument (SSJ Goku = post ritual red form or Base Goku = post ritual red form) make some very strong and valid points. I personally lean towards SSJ Goku = post ritual red, but with Base Goku being far far stronger than anything the Buu saga had to show; meaning Base Goku > hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.

I don't see the sense in arguing back and forth as whether it's SSJ Goku or Base Goku that surpassed his post ritual red form makes little to no difference. The important thing is Base Goku is far stronger than the top contenders of the Buu saga; a concept that had been implied numerous times.

We are really on the same page in the first paragraph. 100% agree.

However, I think it is important to make the distinction between SSJ Goku>SSG and Base>SSG, because it has some pretty big implications. It makes a 50x larger gap between Goku/Vegeta and everybody else and makes it even more ridiculoous for people to catcch up. And if you go with Base>SSG then you end up with implications like:

Piccolo's Makankōsappō>>SSG Goku
Final Form Frost>SSG Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto
Base Cabba>SSG Goku

and several other consequences of having that perspective on things.

[Hugo Boss]

I particularly don’t understand the consistence within the idea that a common character can trade blows with god ranked fighters. From a narrative standpoint, it makes sense that the strongest enemies get stronger as the story progresses, but this doesn’t require every roster-filler to be even remotely close to that level.

Unfortunately, people have easier access to low quality streaming services and internet factoids, which is against what Kanzenshuu community is supposed to be, even in a silly and redundant topic like this.

Really, it would be very productive if you all aim for accuracy by checking what the original product conveys and by supporting the official chanels. If that isn’t enough, ask politely reliable people and provide context to your doubts.

[PFM18]

Really, it would be very productive if you all aim for accuracy by checking what the original product conveys and by supporting the official chanels. If that isn’t enough, ask politely reliable people and provide context to your doubts.

.....So people that think that way must be not aiming for accuracy or checking the orginal product before coming to conclusions? Or they watched the product thoroughly and came to their conclusions accordingly?

[Miracles]

This question obviously comes from the "base god" fanfiction. Base Goku has never fought an opponent at a level like SSJG did against Beerus back then.

[PFM18]

This question obviously comes from the "base god" fanfiction. Base Goku has never fought an opponent at a level like SSJG did against Beerus back then.

I mean but since during BoG it was established that SSJ Goku post-ritual>SSG Goku BoG, don't you think that by now Base Goku is approaching being SSG level by now? He improved a lot since episode 14.

[Miracles]

I mean but since during BoG it was established that SSJ Goku post-ritual>SSG Goku BoG, don't you think that by now Base Goku is approaching being SSG level by now? He improved a lot since episode 14.

Beerus states in BOG that Goku's SSJ "powered down" compared to SSJG.
Even the Z Senshi sensed Goku when he reverted back to SSJ.

[PFM18]

I mean but since during BoG it was established that SSJ Goku post-ritual>SSG Goku BoG, don't you think that by now Base Goku is approaching being SSG level by now? He improved a lot since episode 14.

Beerus states in BOG that Goku's SSJ "powered down" compared to SSJG.
Even the Z Senshi sensed Goku when he reverted back to SSJ.

I mean he says that at first, but then he realizes that isn't the case when Goku performs much better as a SSJ than he did as a SSG. it is pretty thoroughly established in that episode that SSJ Goku>SSG Goku. I think you should consider re-watching episode 14.

Yes, the Z Senshi can sense Goku but isn't really evidence that he powered down. He didn't have God Ki anymore, but he had surpassed SSG. Beerus said it and the episode title said that Goku had surpassed SSG.

[supercat]

I've said this before but both sides of the argument (SSJ Goku = post ritual red form or Base Goku = post ritual red form) make some very strong and valid points. I personally lean towards SSJ Goku = post ritual red, but with Base Goku being far far stronger than anything the Buu saga had to show; meaning Base Goku > hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.

I don't see the sense in arguing back and forth as whether it's SSJ Goku or Base Goku that surpassed his post ritual red form makes little to no difference. The important thing is Base Goku is far stronger than the top contenders of the Buu saga; a concept that had been implied numerous times.

We are really on the same page in the first paragraph. 100% agree.

However, I think it is important to make the distinction between SSJ Goku>SSG and Base>SSG, because it has some pretty big implications. It makes a 50x larger gap between Goku/Vegeta and everybody else and makes it even more ridiculoous for people to catcch up. And if you go with Base>SSG then you end up with implications like:

Piccolo's Makankōsappō>>SSG Goku
Final Form Frost>SSG Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto
Base Cabba>SSG Goku

and several other consequences of having that perspective on things.

Oh yeah, I definitely lean towards SSJ Goku (ToP) SSJ Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > SSJ Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Post ritual red Goku > Base Goku (ToP) > SSJ3 Vegetto.

I have Base Goku and Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament at least 2x stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and only getting stronger from there. As for Final Form Frost, considering how he's likely at least on par with the Base Saiyans (Universe 6 Tournament) it seems quite likely that he'd be able to wreck SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan with ease. I also adhere to the notion that Base Goku, immediately after the energy absorption experienced a level of power that he had ever experienced (including the caliber he reached as Super Saiyan Vegetto).

Base Cabba is a bit tricky, but it seems rather likely that he too would be able to destroy Buuhan with ease. I'm guessing he's somewhere around SSJ Vegetto-tier at the very least, considering how he gave Base Vegeta a decent fight.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku (ToP) > / = Android 17 >> (Ultimate Gohan (ToP) > / = Super Saiyan Blue Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) Super Saiyan Red Goku (ToP) >> Super Saiyan Goku (ToP) > Super Saiyan Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > Super Saiyan Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Post ritual Red Goku > Base Goku (ToP) > Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > / = Base Goku (Merged Zamasu battle) > Final Form Frost > / = Base Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > Base Goku (RoF) = Final Form Frieza > / = Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Base Cabba > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan

[PFM18]

I've said this before but both sides of the argument (SSJ Goku = post ritual red form or Base Goku = post ritual red form) make some very strong and valid points. I personally lean towards SSJ Goku = post ritual red, but with Base Goku being far far stronger than anything the Buu saga had to show; meaning Base Goku > hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.

I don't see the sense in arguing back and forth as whether it's SSJ Goku or Base Goku that surpassed his post ritual red form makes little to no difference. The important thing is Base Goku is far stronger than the top contenders of the Buu saga; a concept that had been implied numerous times.

We are really on the same page in the first paragraph. 100% agree.

However, I think it is important to make the distinction between SSJ Goku>SSG and Base>SSG, because it has some pretty big implications. It makes a 50x larger gap between Goku/Vegeta and everybody else and makes it even more ridiculoous for people to catcch up. And if you go with Base>SSG then you end up with implications like:

Piccolo's Makankōsappō>>SSG Goku
Final Form Frost>SSG Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto
Base Cabba>SSG Goku

and several other consequences of having that perspective on things.

Oh yeah, I definitely lean towards SSJ Goku (ToP) SSJ Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > SSJ Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Post ritual red Goku > Base Goku (ToP) > SSJ3 Vegetto.

I have Base Goku and Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament at least 2x stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and only getting stronger from there. As for Final Form Frost, considering how he's likely at least on par with the Base Saiyans (Universe 6 Tournament) it seems quite likely that he'd be able to wreck SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan with ease. I also adhere to the notion that Base Goku, immediately after the energy absorption experienced a level of power that he had ever experienced (including the caliber he reached as Super Saiyan Vegetto).

Base Cabba is a bit tricky, but it seems rather likely that he too would be able to destroy Buuhan with ease. I'm guessing he's somewhere around SSJ Vegetto-tier at the very least, considering how he gave Base Vegeta a decent fight.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku (ToP) > / = Android 17 >> (Ultimate Gohan (ToP) > / = Super Saiyan Blue Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) Super Saiyan Red Goku (ToP) >> Super Saiyan Goku (ToP) > Super Saiyan Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > Super Saiyan Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Post ritual Red Goku > Base Goku (ToP) > Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > / = Base Goku (Merged Zamasu battle) > Final Form Frost > / = Base Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > Base Goku (RoF) = Final Form Frieza > / = Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Base Cabba > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan

Right I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Now, of course Frost could probably atleast compete with SSJ Vegetto based on what we are told in the story, but I was saying that if you come to the conclusion that Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG, then you would also have to conclude that Frost, Base Cabba, and Piccolo's Piccolo's Makankōsappō would all be stronger than SSG Goku from BoG. that is definitely too much for me. Of course, all of the aforementioned characters surpass Buuhan by a wide margin,by this point Buuhan is a fly, but if you follow the aforementioned premise, they would also have to surpass SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu Arc.

The Chain you gave is pretty much exactly what I would do outside of your placement of Cabba and SSJ1 and SSJ2 Vegetto. Buuhan should definitely be last though.

[Miracles]

I mean he says that at first, but then he realizes that isn't the case when Goku performs much better as a SSJ than he did as a SSG. it is pretty thoroughly established in that episode that SSJ Goku>SSG Goku. I think you should consider re-watching episode 14.

Yes, the Z Senshi can sense Goku but isn't really evidence that he powered down. He didn't have God Ki anymore, but he had surpassed SSG. Beerus said it and the episode title said that Goku had surpassed SSG.

In episode 14, Beerus was smacking SSJ Goku around, even boasting, saying Goku's power "should not be like this.I guess the divine power was not inside you."
SSJ Goku powers up again to fire a Kamehameha and Beerus emphasizes Goku's lack even more; "But if you are still like that you will not be able to hit me."
Beerus only saw the SSJG power at the end, when SSJ Goku pushed Beerus back in space after another power up. So it's like BOG stated, Goku "powered down" in SSJ from SSJG.
SSJG > SSJ in both BOG and Super.

[Hugo Boss]

Really, it would be very productive if you all aim for accuracy by checking what the original product conveys and by supporting the official chanels. If that isn’t enough, ask politely reliable people and provide context to your doubts.

.....So people that think that way must be not aiming for accuracy or checking the orginal product before coming to conclusions? Or they watched the product thoroughly and came to their conclusions accordingly?

If you honestly do that, there is no problem with your opinion. It’s just a free advice. My concern is more about spreading misinformation. There isn’t even a remotely established consensus about the matter that is being discussed in this thread. It’s in good spirit to be open-minded to constructive criticism, not antagonizing different opinions.

[PFM18]

I mean he says that at first, but then he realizes that isn't the case when Goku performs much better as a SSJ than he did as a SSG. it is pretty thoroughly established in that episode that SSJ Goku>SSG Goku. I think you should consider re-watching episode 14.

Yes, the Z Senshi can sense Goku but isn't really evidence that he powered down. He didn't have God Ki anymore, but he had surpassed SSG. Beerus said it and the episode title said that Goku had surpassed SSG.

In episode 14, Beerus was smacking SSJ Goku around, even boasting, saying Goku's power "should not be like this.I guess the divine power was not inside you."
SSJ Goku powers up again to fire a Kamehameha and Beerus emphasizes Goku's lack even more; "But if you are still like that you will not be able to hit me."
Beerus only saw the SSJG power at the end, when SSJ Goku pushed Beerus back in space after another power up. So it's like BOG stated, Goku "powered down" in SSJ from SSJG.
SSJG > SSJ in both BOG and Super.

He also says after Goku pushes Beerus back as a golden SSJ:
"So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God."
and "And get a patchwork Super Saiyan God and you made it your own and perfected it."

He made it his own and perfected it by infusing that power into his SSJ self.

And Goku went on to perform better than he did as a Super Saiyan God. Not to mention the fact that the previous episode is literally called "Goku,Surpass the Super Saiyan God"

Really, it would be very productive if you all aim for accuracy by checking what the original product conveys and by supporting the official chanels. If that isn’t enough, ask politely reliable people and provide context to your doubts.

.....So people that think that way must be not aiming for accuracy or checking the orginal product before coming to conclusions? Or they watched the product thoroughly and came to their conclusions accordingly?

If you honestly do that, there is no problem with your opinion. It’s just a free advice. My concern is more about spreading misinformation. There isn’t even a remotely established consensus about the matter that is being discussed in this thread. It’s in good spirit to be open-minded to constructive criticism, not antagonizing different opinions.

Ok well that is all fine and dandy. Of course we have to accept other's opinions and encourage them to voice it. But voicing your opinion based on the evidence laid out in front of us in the story is not "spreading misinformation." The problem is you implied that people that have a certain viewpoint thought that way as a result of not "aiming for accuracy"

[Hugo Boss]

The problem is you implied that people that have a certain viewpoint thought that way as a result of not "aiming for accuracy"

This is not about pointing fingers. To be more clear, I have saw on this thread and in other similar ones some gross exaggerations like “Base Goku is stronger than a hypothetical super strong character that never existed in Dragon Ball story”. That strikes me as a bad sign of extrapolation that isn’t expected from a Kanzenshuu member.

[PFM18]

The problem is you implied that people that have a certain viewpoint thought that way as a result of not "aiming for accuracy"

This is not about pointing fingers. To be more clear, I have saw on this thread and in other similar ones some gross exaggerations like “Base Goku is stronger than a hypothetical super strong character that never existed in Dragon Ball story”. That strikes me as a bad sign of extrapolation that isn’t expected from a Kanzenshuu member.

You say this isn't about pointing fingers and then you go on to ridicule people that have a different opinion than you and call their deductions "gross exaggerations"

It certainly sounds like you are referring to Base Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto. Considering how very heavily implied that is then I don't know how you can conclude that thinking that would be beneath what is expected of a Kanzenshuu member.

We obviously know that had Goku and Vegeta become Vegetto they could easily become SSJ3 since Gotenks did it and neither of the participants know SSJ3. So when Goku considers whether fusion would be enough he is taking into account a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.

And we have several points of evidence that point to the notion that SSG Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto
1. Goku says that fusion wouldn't work against the heavily suppressed Beerus on King Kai's planet.
2. Goku, upon achieving Super Saiyan god says that he didn't even know that a level of power like that could even exist.
3. Goku says that he never could have reached that level of power on his own.
4. The same Beerus that Goku said fusion wasn't enough for, had to power up further in order to fight evenly with SSG Goku

Then it is thoroughly established that the golden SSJ surpassed SSG after that. We know exactly what the difference is between Base Goku and SSJ Goku. And considering that we know for a fact that Goku got atleast 10x stronger than his BoG self, (I personally estimate closer to 30x), then Goku's base by the ToP is probably approaching the SSJ/SSG Goku from BoG. If he is even close to SSG or SSJ post ritual, then he must be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto.

I think things look like this:
SSJ3 Vegetto Buu Arc:10
SSG Goku BoG: 20
Base Goku ToP:12

if anything it isn't a "gross exaggeration" as much as it is using context, feats, and statements to conclude something perfectly rational.

[supercat]

We are really on the same page in the first paragraph. 100% agree.

However, I think it is important to make the distinction between SSJ Goku>SSG and Base>SSG, because it has some pretty big implications. It makes a 50x larger gap between Goku/Vegeta and everybody else and makes it even more ridiculoous for people to catcch up. And if you go with Base>SSG then you end up with implications like:

Piccolo's Makankōsappō>>SSG Goku
Final Form Frost>SSG Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto
Base Cabba>SSG Goku

and several other consequences of having that perspective on things.

Oh yeah, I definitely lean towards SSJ Goku (ToP) SSJ Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > SSJ Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Post ritual red Goku > Base Goku (ToP) > SSJ3 Vegetto.

I have Base Goku and Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament at least 2x stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and only getting stronger from there. As for Final Form Frost, considering how he's likely at least on par with the Base Saiyans (Universe 6 Tournament) it seems quite likely that he'd be able to wreck SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan with ease. I also adhere to the notion that Base Goku, immediately after the energy absorption experienced a level of power that he had ever experienced (including the caliber he reached as Super Saiyan Vegetto).

Base Cabba is a bit tricky, but it seems rather likely that he too would be able to destroy Buuhan with ease. I'm guessing he's somewhere around SSJ Vegetto-tier at the very least, considering how he gave Base Vegeta a decent fight.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku (ToP) > / = Android 17 >> (Ultimate Gohan (ToP) > / = Super Saiyan Blue Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) Super Saiyan Red Goku (ToP) >> Super Saiyan Goku (ToP) > Super Saiyan Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > Super Saiyan Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Post ritual Red Goku > Base Goku (ToP) > Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > / = Base Goku (Merged Zamasu battle) > Final Form Frost > / = Base Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > Base Goku (RoF) = Final Form Frieza > / = Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Base Cabba > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan

Right I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Now, of course Frost could probably atleast compete with SSJ Vegetto based on what we are told in the story, but I was saying that if you come to the conclusion that Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG, then you would also have to conclude that Frost, Base Cabba, and Piccolo's Piccolo's Makankōsappō would all be stronger than SSG Goku from BoG. that is definitely too much for me. Of course, all of the aforementioned characters surpass Buuhan by a wide margin,by this point Buuhan is a fly, but if you follow the aforementioned premise, they would also have to surpass SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu Arc.

The Chain you gave is pretty much exactly what I would do outside of your placement of Cabba and SSJ1 and SSJ2 Vegetto. Buuhan should definitely be last though.

Yeah, I definitely do agree that SSJ Goku (immediately following energy absorption) > / = Post Ritual Red Form Goku is the most likely of scenarios.

Piccolo at best is likely twice as strong as SSJ Vegetto while at worst he's on par with him.

There are a number of feats suggesting why Base Goku is as strong as he is, so ranting on about how characters like Cabba and Frost being stronger than everyone from the Buu saga doesn't make sense isn't really a viable argument in my opinion.

[PFM18]

Oh yeah, I definitely lean towards SSJ Goku (ToP) SSJ Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > SSJ Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Post ritual red Goku > Base Goku (ToP) > SSJ3 Vegetto.

I have Base Goku and Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament at least 2x stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and only getting stronger from there. As for Final Form Frost, considering how he's likely at least on par with the Base Saiyans (Universe 6 Tournament) it seems quite likely that he'd be able to wreck SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan with ease. I also adhere to the notion that Base Goku, immediately after the energy absorption experienced a level of power that he had ever experienced (including the caliber he reached as Super Saiyan Vegetto).

Base Cabba is a bit tricky, but it seems rather likely that he too would be able to destroy Buuhan with ease. I'm guessing he's somewhere around SSJ Vegetto-tier at the very least, considering how he gave Base Vegeta a decent fight.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku (ToP) > / = Android 17 >> (Ultimate Gohan (ToP) > / = Super Saiyan Blue Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) Super Saiyan Red Goku (ToP) >> Super Saiyan Goku (ToP) > Super Saiyan Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > Super Saiyan Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Post ritual Red Goku > Base Goku (ToP) > Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > / = Base Goku (Merged Zamasu battle) > Final Form Frost > / = Base Goku (Universe 6 Tournament) > Base Goku (RoF) = Final Form Frieza > / = Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku (vs Beerus immediately following power absorption) > / = Base Cabba > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan

Right I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Now, of course Frost could probably atleast compete with SSJ Vegetto based on what we are told in the story, but I was saying that if you come to the conclusion that Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG, then you would also have to conclude that Frost, Base Cabba, and Piccolo's Piccolo's Makankōsappō would all be stronger than SSG Goku from BoG. that is definitely too much for me. Of course, all of the aforementioned characters surpass Buuhan by a wide margin,by this point Buuhan is a fly, but if you follow the aforementioned premise, they would also have to surpass SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu Arc.

The Chain you gave is pretty much exactly what I would do outside of your placement of Cabba and SSJ1 and SSJ2 Vegetto. Buuhan should definitely be last though.

Yeah, I definitely do agree that SSJ Goku (immediately following energy absorption) > / = Post Ritual Red Form Goku is the most likely of scenarios.

Piccolo at best is likely twice as strong as SSJ Vegetto while at worst he's on par with him.

There are a number of feats suggesting why Base Goku is as strong as he is, so ranting on about how characters like Cabba and Frost being stronger than everyone from the Buu saga doesn't make sense isn't really a viable argument in my opinion.

Honestly, I don't think we know enough about where Piccolo stands to make statements about him being SSJ Vegetto level IMO.

I am not concerned with characters like Cabba and Frost being stronger than Buuhan but I do have a problem with them being stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto

[Hugo Boss]

The problem is you implied that people that have a certain viewpoint thought that way as a result of not "aiming for accuracy"

This is not about pointing fingers. To be more clear, I have saw on this thread and in other similar ones some gross exaggerations like “Base Goku is stronger than a hypothetical super strong character that never existed in Dragon Ball story”. That strikes me as a bad sign of extrapolation that isn’t expected from a Kanzenshuu member.

You say this isn't about pointing fingers and then you go on to ridicule people that have a different opinion than you and call their deductions "gross exaggerations”

There is nothing in my post that suggest that I’m ridiculing anyone. A gross exaggeration is just what it is, there is nothing to infer from that. Comparing a character that actually exists to another that is only fan-idealized isn’t aiming for accuracy at all. Also, there is nothing established about SS being stronger than SSG. If anything this idea doesn’t hold any water in the Survival Arc.

[supercat]

Right I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Now, of course Frost could probably atleast compete with SSJ Vegetto based on what we are told in the story, but I was saying that if you come to the conclusion that Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG, then you would also have to conclude that Frost, Base Cabba, and Piccolo's Piccolo's Makankōsappō would all be stronger than SSG Goku from BoG. that is definitely too much for me. Of course, all of the aforementioned characters surpass Buuhan by a wide margin,by this point Buuhan is a fly, but if you follow the aforementioned premise, they would also have to surpass SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu Arc.

The Chain you gave is pretty much exactly what I would do outside of your placement of Cabba and SSJ1 and SSJ2 Vegetto. Buuhan should definitely be last though.

Yeah, I definitely do agree that SSJ Goku (immediately following energy absorption) > / = Post Ritual Red Form Goku is the most likely of scenarios.

Piccolo at best is likely twice as strong as SSJ Vegetto while at worst he's on par with him.

There are a number of feats suggesting why Base Goku is as strong as he is, so ranting on about how characters like Cabba and Frost being stronger than everyone from the Buu saga doesn't make sense isn't really a viable argument in my opinion.

Honestly, I don't think we know enough about where Piccolo stands to make statements about him being SSJ Vegetto level IMO.

I am not concerned with characters like Cabba and Frost being stronger than Buuhan but I do have a problem with them being stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto

Well Piccolo is a tough one since he barely has any notable feats other than wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely in some shape or form comparable to his former Ultimate self. I just have Piccolo stronger than SSJ Vegetto, since I don't think he's that much weaker than the Base Saiyans. Sure, he's weak enough where a powered up attack won't do much to Base Goku, but I don't think the difference is 4-5x (which is roughly the gap between Vegetto's SSJ2 and SSJ3).

Yeah, Cabba and Frost being able to crush Buuhan with ease yet falling short of Vegetto's stronger forms is what seems the most likely. I do think that Final Form Frost is still at the very least stronger than SSJ Vegetto, since Third Form Frost outperformed Base Goku and Vegeta felt the need to transform against an exhausted Final Form Frost.