"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

The anime is built on pointless fanservice. The anime is also built on replicating moments from the original series for cheap nostalgia bucks.

So is the manga. You think those needless "homages" serve any other purpose? The manga is promotional material for the same anime you're calling pointless fanservice. I'm not really sure you're in any position to call it a more coherent story when it's just as creatively bankrupt.

[Marlowe89]

Personally don't care for the use of homages in either version, although I generally find the anime's far worse and more obnoxious. I haven't noticed as many in the manga recently.

As far as the ongoing discussion in the previous page goes, I'm going to have to maintain that there's nothing inherently wrong with comparing both versions in this thread as long as the points being made are relevant to the manga's choices. As TKA noted, I feel that people are trying to treat this as some sort of fan competition when it's not, and shouldn't be. If there are aspects of the anime's story that I end up preferring over the manga's, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to point that out.

[Bergamo]

The anime is built on pointless fanservice. The anime is also built on replicating moments from the original series for cheap nostalgia bucks.

So is the manga. You think those needless "homages" serve any other purpose? The manga is promotional material for the same anime you're calling pointless fanservice. I'm not really sure you're in any position to call it a more coherent story when it's just as creatively bankrupt.

Oof, the good ol' promotional material "argument." You are aware that there are different degrees of homage placement right? If this problem is equal in both mediums, then explain why Krillin, Piccolo, 18, and Tien all got special focus in the anime?

I know I'm coming off as aggressive, but there are countless other factors concerning how coherent the narrative is, and you boil it down to black and white. There are many original stories that are incoherent, and many well-structured yet derivative stories. How can we have a discussion if we keep being so petty.

[prince212]

So .. in chapter 35 , Goku states that there’s another wall I’ve gotta overcome , as the only option to beat Jiren..
How do you guys think that wall is gonna be broken? Rage , mind concentrate, observation, last chance, ...?
The truth is that Goku was about to be eliminated and hit saved him ..
Not easy to portray a coherent scenario that will make him break the limits and perform ultra instinct.
As an idea , will be cool that he realizes that Jiren uses U.I , observes his calm mind and by imitation he unlock it so they can fight at the same level ...

[Miracles]

So .. in chapter 35 , Goku states that there’s another wall I’ve gotta overcome , as the only option to beat Jiren..
How do you guys think that wall is gonna be broken? Rage , mind concentrate, observation, last chance, ...?
The truth is that Goku was about to be eliminated and hit saved him ..
Not easy to portray a coherent scenario that will make him break the limits and perform ultra instinct.
As an idea , will be cool that he realizes that Jiren uses U.I , observes his calm mind and by imitation he unlock it so they can fight at the same level ...

I think it depends on what Toyotaro's idea of UI is. If it's a form, he obviously might have to go the emotion route to transform, Zenkai etc.
If it's not a form and just a mind set, than Goku can achieve it through concentration through battle, maybe.

[MyNiggaGoku]

So .. in chapter 35 , Goku states that there’s another wall I’ve gotta overcome , as the only option to beat Jiren..
How do you guys think that wall is gonna be broken? Rage , mind concentrate, observation, last chance, ...?
The truth is that Goku was about to be eliminated and hit saved him ..
Not easy to portray a coherent scenario that will make him break the limits and perform ultra instinct.
As an idea , will be cool that he realizes that Jiren uses U.I , observes his calm mind and by imitation he unlock it so they can fight at the same level ...

I think it depends on what Toyotaro's idea of UI is. If it's a form, he obviously might have to go the emotion route to transform, Zenkai etc.
If it's not a form and just a mind set, than Goku can achieve it through concentration through battle, maybe.

Well Toyo already drew MUI Goku and he had the silver(white in the manga) color hair so it will either be treated as a form or at least as an appearance altering technique.
So I think Goku will fully unlock UI either by rage or as a last hope thing. I also believe that some foreshadowing will be included, with Goku fighting some lesser opponent trying to move without thinking but ultimately getting hit, like Vegeta did in the anime against Katopesla.

[Miracles]

Well Toyo already drew MUI Goku and he had the silver(white in the manga) color hair so it will either be treated as a form or at least as an appearance altering technique.
So I think Goku will fully unlock UI either by rage or as a last hope thing. I also believe that some foreshadowing will be included, with Goku fighting some lesser opponent trying to move without thinking but ultimately getting hit, like Vegeta did in the anime against Katopesla.

Ah, thanks for that. I forgot about that image he drew of UI Goku with silver hair.

[Doctor.]

You are aware that there are different degrees of homage placement right?

Sure. The anime hopes to hide its lack of creativity by rehashing some of the best moments of the previous series instead of creating its own original set-pieces, and the manga hopes to hide its lack of creativity by sprinkling pointless references to the previous series in the most inappropriate or unnecessary places instead of filling that space with its own memorable drawings. I don't really care about the degree, I was just saying the manga is just as guilty as the anime; they're both carried by the previous series and they have a depressingly low number of memorable scenes that don't carry themselves through nostalgia or rely on the success of the previous series in order to make some sort of impact. Which of the two is the biggest offender is irrelevant to me, since that wasn't what I was arguing; I'm saying they're both creatively bankrupt.

but there are countless other factors concerning how coherent the narrative is, and you boil it down to black and white.

I don't boil it down to black and white, the manga does. The nature of the manga, that of being promotional material for the anime, renders this discussion moot. It's a barely a coherent story: it skips almost two arcs and all the different plot beats are tied together in the shallowest way possible; that's why people keep complaining that Toyotaro is just ticking boxes on a checklist with each passing chapter, and that's even clearer in this arc than in all the rest. Does this mean there aren't well-executed transitions and that Toyotaro doesn't make an effort to connect his own original ideas (the few he has) with old plot points? Obviously not. But those are minor and scarce pieces of organic storytelling in a series set within a time period that doesn't allow for these kinds of stories to be told in an organic way.

And yes, there is no competition. To me, both the anime and the manga are embarrassing, soulless sequels to one of the most charming and creatively written stories of our generation. There is no "side" to choose.

[jeffbr92]

Still doesn't change the fact that Toyotaro homages are bad and overused.

And TOEI's aren't? I chewed glass when all they could do for Vegeta's big moments was give him Cell and Majin Buu callbacks... Lame.

One has to wipe out that single mentality on this forum that who ever criticizes the manga is always a biased anime fan and vice-versa.

Because yes, I also disliked the anime homages, thanks.

[prince212]

I think it depends on what Toyotaro's idea of UI is. If it's a form, he obviously might have to go the emotion route to transform, Zenkai etc.
If it's not a form and just a mind set, than Goku can achieve it through concentration through battle, maybe.

Well Toyo already drew MUI Goku and he had the silver(white in the manga) color hair so it will either be treated as a form or at least as an appearance altering technique.
So I think Goku will fully unlock UI either by rage or as a last hope thing. I also believe that some foreshadowing will be included, with Goku fighting some lesser opponent trying to move without thinking but ultimately getting hit, like Vegeta did in the anime against Katopesla.

Yeap , it is a form .... and it’s gonna need some foreshadowing, it’s clear that Goku knows that he needs that for the win , so he might explain how to get there , rage has not sense , just calm I guess.
And I encourage to the anime vs manga guys to move to the corresponding thread , it’s depressing

[Bergamo]

You are aware that there are different degrees of homage placement right?

Sure. The anime hopes to hide its lack of creativity by rehashing some of the best moments of the previous series instead of creating its own original set-pieces, and the manga hopes to hide its lack of creativity by sprinkling pointless references to the previous series in the most inappropriate or unnecessary places instead of filling that space with its own memorable drawings. I don't really care about the degree, I was just saying the manga is just as guilty as the anime; they're both carried by the previous series and they have a depressingly low number of memorable scenes that don't carry themselves through nostalgia or rely on the success of the previous series in order to make some sort of impact. Which of the two is the biggest offender is irrelevant to me, since that wasn't what I was arguing; I'm saying they're both creatively bankrupt.

but there are countless other factors concerning how coherent the narrative is, and you boil it down to black and white.

I don't boil it down to black and white, the manga does. The nature of the manga, that of being promotional material for the anime, renders this discussion moot. It's a barely a coherent story: it skips almost two arcs and all the different plot beats are tied together in the shallowest way possible; that's why people keep complaining that Toyotaro is just ticking boxes on a checklist with each passing chapter, and that's even clearer in this arc than in all the rest. Does this mean there aren't well-executed transitions and that Toyotaro doesn't make an effort to connect his own original ideas (the few he has) with old plot points? Obviously not. But those are minor and scarce pieces of organic storytelling in a series set within a time period that doesn't allow for these kinds of stories to be told in an organic way.

And yes, there is no competition. To me, both the anime and the manga are embarrassing, soulless sequels to one of the most charming and creatively written stories of our generation. There is no "side" to choose.

The manga does have a coherent narrative, which you can see if you pay attention. In the u6 arc, it's established that using SSB drains too much energy to be an effective form, so Goku decides that the best use of the form is to have all of its power explode at once. In the Black arc Vegeta derives a new technique from this method of fighting by constantly switching to Blue the moment he attacks. It's made clear that it's not like Goku and Vegeta never thought of this before, but this could only be pulled off after intense training in the hyperbolic time chamber. Finally, Goku completes the form by sealing the overflowing power of Blue within his body and channeling it into his attacks. Vegeta faced the problems with Blue, but Goku faced them and overcame them, becoming stronger than before, although not in a way that's practical or sustainable. At the beginning of the ToP arc it's shown that Goku and Vegeta can now use this form basically whenever they want, which ties up the story of Super Saiyan Blue.

I think this is significant, because it made the best of Toriyama's mistake. Toriyama introduced a new form before the previous one ever got a chance to do anything, so instead of wasting SSG, Toyotaro used the form as much as he could before moving on. This is a concept that ONLY works because he skipped the RoF movie, and that's not inherently a bad thing. Toyotaro moves on to a new form after the previous one has reached its logical conclusion, and I really enjoy that. This means more to me than anything in a Dragonball story, which is why I can't in good faith say that both the anime and the manga are both equally good (or bad in this case) as adaptations.

[batistabus]

This is all I have to say about homages. In the manga, the homages could reasonably be seen to reflect Toyotaro's limits as an artist, but they don't affect the story. The only people who notices the manga's homages are super-fans who have specific panels ingrained into their memories, and while I don't think the use of them is necessary, they're largely inoffensive. If you change those specific panels, nothing else is affected. Sure, the manga contains story beats that exist in the original manga (Goku pursuing SS2 while Vegeta peruses the "graded" versions of Super Saiyan vs Goku's Completed SSB and Vegeta's God x Blue), but they feel like natural progressions that rhyme more than they mirror.

The nature of the manga, that of being promotional material for the anime

This has clearly not been the case for a long time now. The manga's Battle of Gods arc is nothing more than an abridged version of the film, and the events of Resurrection F have to be understood for the rest of the manga, but everything else stands on its own. The fact that Toyotaro has been given the freedom to deviate from Toei's version - and does drastically at times - shows that this is a different product for a potentially different audience. According to Toyotaro, at one point (and might be the case at some point in the future) the flow of information went from the manga to the anime, so it's not such a straight-forward relationship. The products certainly have marketing synergy, but one is no longer dependent on the other to succeed.

And yes, there is no competition. To me, both the anime and the manga are embarrassing, soulless sequels to one of the most charming and creatively written stories of our generation. There is no "side" to choose.

If you truly feel this way, that's perfectly fine...but why are you here? That's an honest question. Nobody is forcing you to experience or talk about Dragon Ball Super.

[prince212]

This is all I have to say about homages. In the manga, the homages could reasonably be seen to reflect Toyotaro's limits as an artist, but they don't affect the story. The only people who notices the manga's homages are super-fans who have specific panels ingrained into their memories, and while I don't think the use of them is necessary, they're largely inoffensive. If you change those specific panels, nothing else is affected.

Agree that few people notice homages unless they are told , I’m a big fan who read this series several times since the 90’s and I just notice those two times , one was this and it’s cool [spoiler][/spoiler] , and the other one was merge zamas after the hakai , cool too
I don’t agree about those reflecting his limits as an artist, I can see better his limits in small panels with bad details , wrong perspectives, weird body positions.... sometimes that happen , not so many . He needs assistants,good supervisors or good glasses , they are mistakes not that hard to fix . Rush is an excuse but not enough.
Still I think he’s the one for dragon ball super, may be there’s people that may draw cool single panels , but they are a ? about doing 45 pages per month and if the Japanese capos choose him , I trust in them . I love the results .
Also his own designs of destruction gods were more than acceptable
Story telling he’s awesome considering he doesn’t have too much gap to develop, for example , he tried to make belmond and her angel “lovers”and mr.tori said no .
I know there’s tons of better artist all around in mangas that I’m reading , but for dragon ball , I.m.o , he’s the one .

[emperior]

This is not a competition, but some people make it feel like it is.
I despise anime fans who hate every aspect of the manga the same as I despise the opposite attitude. Calling the anime pointless fanservice and treating it as just a way to sell merchandise is not even correct if you then consider the manga to be different, which it really isn't.

Would you call all the mystery and twists the anime Future Trunks arc had pointless fanservice? Was the story written to sell merchandising? Not at all.
The mystery of Black's anime, the twists: they all made the anime arc a story, while the manga completely skipped the mystery part of Black's identity to go straight up to battles, while also giving Super Saiyan God to Vegeta just for fanservice. Oh right he never got a toy and not even a Heroes/Dokkan Battle card, because they take things from the anime as it is considered the main product, but I bet that if SSG Vegeta made it to the anime many people would say they did it to sell merchandising. I also saw lots of people criticize Toyotaro's storytelling because of how it felt like he was just checking the bullet points Toriyama gave him, because that is exactly the vibe the manga gives off most of the times.
I have also called out the anime many times for the constant references and homages. As I said before, it is ok to prefer the manga over the anime but insulting the anime and calling it "creatively bankrupt" is not fine to me, if you then go out to praise the manga.

I much prefer Doctor's honesty when he says he dislikes both the anime and the manga. I don't think a fan can hate one while loving the other considering how the story behind both the products is the same, but just told in different ways. Quoting Doctor, there is no "side" to choose. I feel the same.

[Doctor.]

The manga does have a coherent narrative, which you can see if you pay attention. In the u6 arc, it's established that using SSB drains too much energy to be an effective form, so Goku decides that the best use of the form is to have all of its power explode at once. In the Black arc Vegeta derives a new technique from this method of fighting by constantly switching to Blue the moment he attacks. It's made clear that it's not like Goku and Vegeta never thought of this before, but this could only be pulled off after intense training in the hyperbolic time chamber. Finally, Goku completes the form by sealing the overflowing power of Blue within his body and channeling it into his attacks. Vegeta faced the problems with Blue, but Goku faced them and overcame them, becoming stronger than before, although not in a way that's practical or sustainable. At the beginning of the ToP arc it's shown that Goku and Vegeta can now use this form basically whenever they want, which ties up the story of Super Saiyan Blue.

I think this is significant, because it made the best of Toriyama's mistake. Toriyama introduced a new form before the previous one ever got a chance to do anything, so instead of wasting SSG, Toyotaro used the form as much as he could before moving on. This is a concept that ONLY works because he skipped the RoF movie, and that's not inherently a bad thing. Toyotaro moves on to a new form after the previous one has reached its logical conclusion, and I really enjoy that. This means more to me than anything in a Dragonball story, which is why I can't in good faith say that both the anime and the manga are both equally good (or bad in this case) as adaptations.

It's ironic that you bring that up as an example of a positive point of the manga, when, to me, it's just proof of Toyotaro's lack of creativity. He took that concept directly out of his own AF manga. I mean, the concept by itself isn't bad, I guess, but it doesn't work well in the way Toyotaro implemented it, mostly because the scaling in that scene is completely fucked: Black defeated Blue Vegeta while in Super Saiyan, but somehow Vegeta's God form is enough to dodge and handle Rosé? Anyway, scaling aside since it's not relevant, your point was that of coherence. Sure, Toyotaro does a reasonably good job of calling back to previous plot points and concepts, but it would be disingenuous to claim the anime doesn't do the same; Kaioken is just an example. The key lies in execution (both examples were poorly executed). And, like I said, even if well-executed, small moments of brilliance don't make inorganic storytelling that is more preoccupied with ticking boxes any more interesting.

And I don't think Toriyama introduced a new form "before the previous one ever got a chance to do anything." All the forms had their moment of spotlight in the original series. Kaioken was getting up to ridiculous x20 multipliers, so it needed to go. Super Saiyan was the most commonly used form throughout the manga. The Grade forms each got a major fight in their arc and they were always seen as a stepping stone for something greater regardless. Super Saiyan 2 got a major climatic fight against Cell. Super Saiyan 3 is the only one that could really be argued against, but I feel as if the ridiculousness of the form's design plays into the over-the-top way the arc was written; so even if it wasn't exactly an efficient form, it fit the general tone of the arc in a serviceable way.

Now, if you want to argue that modern Toriyama uses the forms he introduces poorly, then I don't really care to argue whether or not you're wrong. My gripe is with Super in general, that includes Toriyama's poorly thought-out and planed plot beats.

This is all I have to say about homages. In the manga, the homages could reasonably be seen to reflect Toyotaro's limits as an artist, but they don't affect the story. The only people who notices the manga's homages are super-fans who have specific panels ingrained into their memories, and while I don't think the use of them is necessary, they're largely inoffensive. If you change those specific panels, nothing else is affected

It's precisely because they reflect his lack of talent that they're a problem. Let's not kid ourselves, Toyotaro is drawing a sequel to the most popular anime franchise of all time and one of the most popular media franchises period. He shouldn't be making the kind of amateurish mistakes he makes on a monthly basis, because Toriyama most certainly didn't on a tighter schedule. You can argue that we should go easy on him, but you can't have it both ways: either the manga is promotional material for the anime, the main product, and so, Toyotaro's mistakes should be overlooked since they're not that important to begin with, or the manga is its own standalone story and he should be held up to scrutiny since he was chosen to be Toriyama's successor. I'd say even if we consider the manga nothing more than promotional material, that he should still be held up to scrutiny considering Toriyama himself has called him his successor.

We could have taken the use of homages as innocent callbacks to the previous series (albeit misplaced) before the whole tracing fiasco. After that, you read his manga in an entirely different light. They are there to hide his lack of talent and creativity, and that explains why they're so poorly placed, in contexts where calling back to the moment they're referencing makes no sense. What do Frost and Goku, for example, have in common for Toyotaro to call back to the panel where Raditz kicks Goku for the Vegeta/Frost fight? Nothing really, not at a surface level nor in the subtext. It's a pointless, needless callback that takes away an opportunity for him to draw one memorable drawing of Frost's defeat that could stand on its own.

I'm not saying Toyotaro can't draw, nor that homages are inherently bad. Toyotaro has shown his artistic skill in multiple occasions, but the repeated usage of homages (two or three times per chapter) takes away any semblance of identity that his manga might have; he's simply riding the coattails of his mentor. And homages are fine when properly placed, when they add something to the scene they're being placed in. The one of Goku and Vegeta's poses posted above is largely inoffensive because it's calling back to the moment they first met and calling attention to how much their relationship has progressed; I still think it was unnecessary since it seems incredibly random and serves no other narrative purpose (the anime version at the end of the series was much more poignant, albeit cliché; although the anime, too, suffers from a lack of identity from overusing homages to the previous series), but I can justify its existence.

This has clearly not been the case for a long time now.

Obviously Toyotaro has a lot more freedom to write his stories now, but this is disingenuous. The resolution of the U6 arc was settled in a few pages with speech bubbles and the concept of the Tournament of Power seems like the perfect camouflage for Toyotaro to just knock out characters with no narrative purpose left and right and get to the juicy parts of the outline fast. It's no coincidence fighters are getting eliminated off-screen (something the anime never did, with one exception). And although you may claim it contributes to the chaotic feeling of the Tournament of Power, that argument doesn't really work when you consider that we've moved beyond "chaotic" scenarios after the first chapter and we're back to the usual 1v1/2v2/1v2 scenarios with few characters to work with in the last couple of chapters.

If you truly feel this way, that's perfectly fine...but why are you here? That's an honest question. Nobody is forcing you to experience or talk about Dragon Ball Super.

I wish it gets better. I'm not here to kill anyone's buzz, I just wish you people wouldn't settle for such garbage when the previous series has shown you can have much better.

[Marlowe89]

And although you may claim it contributes to the chaotic feeling of the Tournament of Power, that argument doesn't really work when you consider that we've moved beyond "chaotic" scenarios after the first chapter and we're back to the usual 1v1/2v2/1v2 scenarios with few characters to work with in the last couple of chapters.

I disagree. Chaper 34 includes a lot of the elements prevalent in Chapter 33. Chapter 35 contributes to that feeling by having Universe 6's strongest fighter (who's also a fairly relevant character in the series) get eliminated particularly early in the tournament. Chapter 36 contributes to that feeling by having two of Universe 7's key players get eliminated off-guard before either of them could have a chance at a fair fight. The anime occasionally includes some of these things as well, but immediately reduces any impact they could have with egregiously hammy """character moments""" that aren't all that substantial or cohesive on their own and actively serve to dillute the pacing and tone of the arc's premise.

The problem is that people are looking at 80 contestants and seeing the opposing fighters as individual characters that the protagonists have to overcome. They're not, and if they were, it wouldn't feel like a battle royale. A lot of them are going to present unique challenges, a lot of them are going to be sidelined for the sake of conveying the tournament's hectic nature, and all of them are emphasizing the greater obstacle that is the Tournament of Power. It's the setting itself that Goku and his friends have to deal with in this specific story.

[Bergamo]

I really wouldn't say I'm settling for "garbage." I don't see many ways that the Super Manga is worse than, say, the Buu Saga. Just because Super isn't as good as one of the greatest manga of all time, doesn't mean it's bad. I don't expect every story to be a masterpiece.

[Doctor.]

I disagree. Chaper 34 includes a lot of the elements prevalent in Chapter 33. Chapter 35 contributes to that feeling by having Universe 6's strongest fighter (who's also a fairly relevant character in the series) get eliminated particularly early in the tournament. Chapter 36 contributes to that feeling by having two of Universe 7's key players get eliminated off-guard before either of them could have a chance at a fair fight. The anime occasionally includes some of these things as well, but immediately reduces any impact they could have with egregiously hammy """character moments""" that aren't all that substantial or cohesive on their own and actively serve to dillute the pacing and tone of the arc's premise.

That's all fine, but that doesn't negate the fact that the scenario of chapter 33, where you had a dozen characters on-screen at a time, and you could barely follow the flow of action, is no longer present. I have to say that Toyotaro did a good job of conveying the chaotic nature of the Tournament of Power in #33 and #34, but following those two, the flow of the action no longer feels natural. Goku is fighting Toppo and Dyspo in #35, then jumps to fight Jiren alongside Hit; these are two isolated 2v1s that start and finish in such a chaotic setting, with no random fighters from other universes popping in and out, intervening in the fight. #35 is dedicated, pretty much, to the Hit/Goku vs Jiren fight, a fight that goes completely uninterrupted for its entire run, even when Goku is standing around in his base form doing nothing but watching Hit and Jiren duke it out, susceptible to getting attacked from behind. #36 continues the trend: Vegeta vs Toppo/Dyspo (2v1), Piccolo vs Jirasen (1v1), Botamo vs #17 (1v1), Piccolo vs Napapa (1v1), #17 vs Jium (1v1), Gohan vs Methiop (1v1), #18 vs the Kamikaze Fireballs (1v3). Notice the trends here: these are all fights with a low number of characters that play out to completion, with no interruption. #18 gets sneak-attacked by Gamisaras but that was already after her fight had ended and she proved herself to be the winner; there may be some interesting coordination here and there, but by and large these are mostly simple 1v1s. More problematic is the fact that only one universe is focused on at a time: Goku is fighting the Pride Troopers and moves on to Jiren, Gohan/17/Piccolo all take out U10 fighters, #18 only fights U2 members, U4's invisible fighters are the main antagonists of #36. There's no feeling of chance if the transitions between the different fights are so unnatural and inorganic. I also want to point out that Goku v Jiren is still going on in #36 despite the fact that Jiren proved his superiority last chapter. The match-ups are formed around convenience, around what's needed to check the boxes in Toriyama's script. The tournament lost its feeling of chaos long ago, it has mostly devolved into the standard and linear match-ups you'd see in any other arc.

Nobody is asking all the 80 fighters to be treated as individual characters; to say anyone is suggesting that shows a concerning misinterpretation of what people, myself included, are complaining about. These fighters should be used not as canon fodder (because they're not canon fodder, or else they wouldn't have unique designs and names), but as fighters that help complement our own fighters or whoever is being focused on at a particular time. Their abilities, gimmicks, personalities, backstory, design, whatever, should contrast and complement and help further the arc of the U7/6/11 characters. Both the anime and the manga do this to an extent, but not as much as they should, seeing as how they blatantly waste characters left, right and center. You could argue that, this way, match-ups don't feel random as they should in a battle royale, but as I've argued above, they already don't feel random; they feel convenient and programmed.

I really wouldn't say I'm settling for "garbage." I don't see many ways that the Super Manga is worse than, say, the Buu Saga. Just because Super isn't as good as one of the greatest manga of all time, doesn't mean it's bad. I don't expect every story to be a masterpiece.

I don't think it's a crime to expect a sequel to be held to the same standards as the previous series. If you consider Super as good/bad as the Boo arc, then that's fine, but it seems to me like you're implying that the Boo arc was a step-down from the rest of the series, in your eyes. If that's the case, then you still shouldn't compromise just because of a low point in an otherwise superior series.

[Bergamo]

I disagree. Chaper 34 includes a lot of the elements prevalent in Chapter 33. Chapter 35 contributes to that feeling by having Universe 6's strongest fighter (who's also a fairly relevant character in the series) get eliminated particularly early in the tournament. Chapter 36 contributes to that feeling by having two of Universe 7's key players get eliminated off-guard before either of them could have a chance at a fair fight. The anime occasionally includes some of these things as well, but immediately reduces any impact they could have with egregiously hammy """character moments""" that aren't all that substantial or cohesive on their own and actively serve to dillute the pacing and tone of the arc's premise.

That's all fine, but that doesn't negate the fact that the scenario of chapter 33, where you had a dozen characters on-screen at a time, and you could barely follow the flow of action, is no longer present. I have to say that Toyotaro did a good job of conveying the chaotic nature of the Tournament of Power in #33 and #34, but following those two, the flow of the action no longer feels natural. Goku is fighting Toppo and Dyspo in #35, then jumps to fight Jiren alongside Hit; these are two isolated 2v1s that start and finish in such a chaotic setting, with no random fighters from other universes popping in and out, intervening in the fight. #35 is dedicated, pretty much, to the Hit/Goku vs Jiren fight, a fight that goes completely uninterrupted for its entire run, even when Goku is standing around in his base form doing nothing but watching Hit and Jiren duke it out, susceptible to getting attacked from behind. #36 continues the trend: Vegeta vs Toppo/Dyspo (2v1), Piccolo vs Jirasen (1v1), Botamo vs #17 (1v1), Piccolo vs Napapa (1v1), #17 vs Jium (1v1), Gohan vs Methiop (1v1), #18 vs the Kamikaze Fireballs (1v3). Notice the trends here: these are all fights with a low number of characters that play out to completion, with no interruption. #18 gets sneak-attacked by Gamisaras but that was already after her fight had ended and she proved herself to be the winner; there may be some interesting coordination here and there, but by and large these are mostly simple 1v1s. More problematic is the fact that only one universe is focused on at a time: Goku is fighting the Pride Troopers and moves on to Jiren, Gohan/17/Piccolo all take out U10 fighters, #18 only fights U2 members, U4's invisible fighters are the main antagonists of #36. There's no feeling of chance if the transitions between the different fights are so unnatural and inorganic. I also want to point out that Goku v Jiren is still going on in #36 despite the fact that Jiren proved his superiority last chapter. The match-ups are formed around convenience, around what's needed to check the boxes in Toriyama's script. The tournament lost its feeling of chaos long ago, it has mostly devolved into the standard and linear match-ups you'd see in any other arc.

Nobody is asking all the 80 fighters to be treated as individual characters; to say anyone is suggesting that shows a concerning misinterpretation of what people, myself included, are complaining about. These fighters should be used not as canon fodder (because they're not canon fodder, or else they wouldn't have unique designs and names), but as fighters that help complement our own fighters or whoever is being focused on at a particular time. Their abilities, gimmicks, personalities, backstory, design, whatever, should contrast and complement and help further the arc of the U7/6/11 characters. Both the anime and the manga do this to an extent, but not as much as they should, seeing as how they blatantly waste characters left, right and center. You could argue that, this way, match-ups don't feel random as they should in a battle royale, but as I've argued above, they already don't feel random; they feel convenient and programmed.

I really wouldn't say I'm settling for "garbage." I don't see many ways that the Super Manga is worse than, say, the Buu Saga. Just because Super isn't as good as one of the greatest manga of all time, doesn't mean it's bad. I don't expect every story to be a masterpiece.

I don't think it's a crime to expect a sequel to be held to the same standards as the previous series. If you consider Super as good/bad as the Boo arc, then that's fine, but it seems to me like you're implying that the Boo arc was a step-down from the rest of the series, in your eyes. If that's the case, then you still shouldn't compromise just because of a low point in an otherwise superior series.

I think you may need to re-read chapter 36, because Piccolo is fighting a u10 member, where he is then ambushed by two fighters at once. Android 17 then steps in to save Piccolo. Also, Piccolo was going to help 17 against Botamo, but the fight ended before he could do anything. Finally, 17, Piccolo, and Gohan were about to face off against the 3 remaining members of u10 before u4 eliminated 3 of the fighters participating and knocked one across the ring.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to call these fights a series of 1v1s rather than Gohan, 17, and Piccolo vs u10. I have no idea how you can act like Piccolo vs Jirasen is anywhere near the same as Goku vs Jiren. Also, would it not get boring if every single elimination was a chaotic 1 panel attack? Not to mention that the tournament should get less chaotic as more people are eliminated.

If you are really saying that Toyotarou transitioned from spontaneous eliminations to 1 page 1v1s, then that's laughable. Also, are you implying that if every part of Dragon Ball isn't the exact same quality as the best of the franchise, then it's garbage. That's pretty extreme.

[emperior]

The feeling of a Battle Royale in the manga was missing only in the fight with Jiren, which I believe happened too soon. If the fight happened later down the line when most of the fighters were out, or if it was faster, I could accept it more. The way Toyotaro portrayed it, it almost felt like Goku and Hit were the last two standing against Jiren. Not to mention how the art in that specific chapter was very bad at times, especially the anatomy. Frankly, Toyotaro should go back to study some anatomy because he constantly messes it up. I get that he is on a tight schedule, but Toriyama was in a worse situation yet his manga never saw such downfalls in quality. Toyotaro couldn't even get Jiren to have a round head, that was laughable.
I really want Toyotaro to improve because I feel like he could be a valid asset in the future, but right now I just wish they would hire DragonGarowLee to draw the manga while Toyotaro can help with backgrounds and dialogues. If that can't be possible, then they should at the very least give Toyotaro an assistant and also someone who points out his mistakes regarding the art, if Toriyama can't bother pointing those out.
I still can't understand how Toriyama doesn't criticize Toyotaro's anatomy considering how he made it a point to hire someone with perfect understanding of the human body as a character designer for the next movie.
Hopefully Toyotaro will be able to fix his issues with anatomy, and maybe take some inspiration from Shintani's art as Toriyama personally helped with the new anime designs.