Was establishing that only 28 planets in Universe 7 have sentient life a mistake from a creative standpoint?

[FoolsGil]

Creative Standpoint? Not sure. Writing standpoint? Yes. Freeza's Army was built on the people he enslaved, and he would use this army of slaves wipe out the inhabitants of other planets, and then sell those planets at a profit to someone else. Who is Freeza selling planets to, if he's A) enslaving people or B) committing genocide when there's only 28 planets with sentient life? And then there is the Galactic Patrol. With 28 planets with sentient life, and Freeza's Army around, how is the Galactic Patrol finding recruits, and then who are they protecting?

[Zelvin]

The Drake equation probabilistically assumes spontaneous generation based on conditions in our galaxy; in the DB world we know that Kaioshin create life, and I don't think it's been established abiogenesis occurs on top of that. Even with the Drake equation and an infinite universe, an infinite universe doesn't necessarily need to be infinitely inhabitable.

We know the kaioshin can create life, but their main job is creating new planets to replace the ones Beerus destroys so there's always a balance of creation versus destruction. Beyond that though, cutting yourself off at the knees with such a declaration stunts writing potential by an immense degree. If there is but one thing GT did right, it was expanding upon the Dragon Ball Universe. Despite GT's writing being rather...poor, to speak of it generously, it still tried to focus on the adventure of Journeying across the Universe. In that regard, they did just fine.

But Super was misguided in trying to go Multiversal right off the bat and then doing nothing to explore those possibilities. Having just one open universe grants infinite storytelling potential, They opened up with knowledge of ancient Namekians having interacted with Saiyans at some point and knowing of the Super Saiyan God, and of the Dragon God, Zarama. There are so many things within U7 to actually explore and expand upon, and they completely shoved it to the background almost immediately.

There's still the Galactic King and his empire to explore, there's still Freeza's race to explore and explain, there's the Super Dragon Balls that could be found. Bulma built the SDB Radar and the only thing it was used for was at the very end of the U6 Tournament to realize what the audience already knew; that the planet they were fighting on was the last SDB.

There's still a whole Demon World to explore. Remember that? There were demons back in the early days of Dragon Ball, nvm Dabura in the Buu Saga. There is so much potential for exploration. And yet it's like they have no interest beyond showing how awesome Saiyans are.

[Simere]

For me personally, the main thing that’s odd about establishing that U7 only has 28 planets with sentient life is that it makes the idea that Freeza is able to run a stable intergalactic trade business seem a bit more difficult to swallow. It also begs the question of how exactly Freeza was able to find so many new followers in such a (presumably) short period of time at the end of Super.

Creative Standpoint? Not sure. Writing standpoint? Yes. Freeza's Army was built on the people he enslaved, and he would use this army of slaves wipe out the inhabitants of other planets, and then sell those planets at a profit to someone else. Who is Freeza selling planets to, if he's A) enslaving people or B) committing genocide when there's only 28 planets with sentient life? And then there is the Galactic Patrol. With 28 planets with sentient life, and Freeza's Army around, how is the Galactic Patrol finding recruits, and then who are they protecting?

28 populated planets is plenty for the numbers we've seen out of the Freeza Force. Just Earth would be enough to sustain the paltry numbers in RoF and Super's ending. Just one city. Just one large WoW guild.

And the Galactic Patrol only has 38 members at last count.

If you don't assume that all these other planets are smaller or similarly sized to Earth, then the numbers especially cease to be a problem. For all we know, some of these other planets could be Ringworld-scaled behemoths, millions of times the size of Earth with populations to match.

I don't recall the specifics of everything said about Freeza's planet trade operation. For one thing, there used to be more planets, so you can ignore the 28 planets bit and account for it that way. But was it said he was selling planets for people to live on? Could they have been sold for mining?

We know the kaioshin can create life, but their main job is creating new planets to replace the ones Beerus destroys so there's always a balance of creation versus destruction. Beyond that though, cutting yourself off at the knees with such a declaration stunts writing potential by an immense degree. If there is but one thing GT did right, it was expanding upon the Dragon Ball Universe. Despite GT's writing being rather...poor, to speak of it generously, it still tried to focus on the adventure of Journeying across the Universe. In that regard, they did just fine.

But Super was misguided in trying to go Multiversal right off the bat and then doing nothing to explore those possibilities. Having just one open universe grants infinite storytelling potential, They opened up with knowledge of ancient Namekians having interacted with Saiyans at some point and knowing of the Super Saiyan God, and of the Dragon God, Zarama. There are so many things within U7 to actually explore and expand upon, and they completely shoved it to the background almost immediately.

Just one neighborhood has infinite storytelling potential, depending on the kind of stories you want tell. What kind are you talking about? If it's the kind DB has always told—Goku's continual climb to greater and greater heights—they already couldn't continue in U7. I mean, they could have. They could have had an invader from another universe or dimension appear in the Galactic King's dominion and we could have got to see it that way. They can still do those types of things; those kind of fringe tidbits of DB lore that you mentioned can still be explored that way.

But if you're talking about a genre or perspective shift into other types of stories, then the potential is still there. The only thing stopping that is creator willingness to change what DB is about and audience willingness to go along with it.

[FoolsGil]

28 populated planets is plenty for the numbers we've seen out of the Freeza Force. Just Earth would be enough to sustain the paltry numbers in RoF and Super's ending. Just one city. Just one large WoW guild....If you don't assume that all these other planets are smaller or similarly sized to Earth, then the numbers especially cease to be a problem. For all we know, some of these other planets could be Ringworld-scaled behemoths, millions of times the size of Earth with populations to match.

I'm not talking about populations. I'm talking about supply and demand. How is Freeza sustaining anything with 28 planets?
* Freeza has no need for an army when he has enslaved most if not all the planets' inhabitants in the universe .
* Freeza has no planets to sell if he's sold most if not all the planets in the universe. Also, There aren't enough inhabitants to buy planets and sustain a business model.

Freeza, whether as an intergalactic businessman, or an intergalactic general, cannot work his racket if there are only 28 planets in the universe. At best, he could be a slave driving despot: that could work with 28 planets, If that's all that he was. But that's not all that he was. No, Freeza was too amazing, too spectacular in his evil that decades later when Toei just couldn't say that all of U7's strongest mortals are on Earth, they decided to say that the universe is actually a smaller place, putting a giant fist through Freeza's backstory

And the Galactic Patrol only has 38 members at last count.

38 members? And are they protecting 1 planet? Maybe 2? Because how are they doing anything when there are 28 planets but Freeza is around enslaving them or wiping them out? You can't have a Galactic Patrol with double digit amount of sentient host planets AND Freeza around.

I don't recall the specifics of everything said about Freeza's planet trade operation. For one thing, there used to be more planets, so you can ignore the 28 planets bit and account for it that way. But was it said he was selling planets for people to live on? Could they have been sold for mining?

That would make Freeza a terrible businessman, despot, and general, if he callously reduced all the available planets to 28 and if he was a fool, he wouldn't have been able to create the empire he has. And there are plenty of planets without sentient life that could be mined for resources. But even if the ones with the right resources were those with sentient life, its not a business model that can last with such a small amount of planets.

[Simere]

28 populated planets is plenty for the numbers we've seen out of the Freeza Force. Just Earth would be enough to sustain the paltry numbers in RoF and Super's ending. Just one city. Just one large WoW guild....If you don't assume that all these other planets are smaller or similarly sized to Earth, then the numbers especially cease to be a problem. For all we know, some of these other planets could be Ringworld-scaled behemoths, millions of times the size of Earth with populations to match.

I'm not talking about populations. I'm talking about supply and demand. How is Freeza sustaining anything with 28 planets?

If you're talking about supply and demand you're talking about populations as it's people who are buying the planets. Maybe there's an overpopulation crisis on some of the planets and they need new worlds to send their people. Maybe there's some megacorporation that requires large amounts of resources to complete some project. Maybe there's a decadent ecumenopolis whose elite desire their own personal vacation pleasure planets. These are common and easy sci-fi tropes for planetary exploitation that could apply here.

No, Freeza was too amazing, too spectacular in his evil that decades later when Toei just couldn't say that all of U7's strongest mortals are on Earth, they decided to say that the universe is actually a smaller place, putting a giant fist through Freeza's backstory

It wasn't Toei.

38 members? And are they protecting 1 planet? Maybe 2? Because how are they doing anything when there are 28 planets but Freeza is around enslaving them or wiping them out? You can't have a Galactic Patrol with double digit amount of sentient host planets AND Freeza around.

They don't have to be doing anything against Freeza. The local police/military force being unable to stand up against state/empire agents is another common trope.

That would make Freeza a terrible businessman, despot, and general, if he callously reduced all the available planets to 28 and if he was a fool, he wouldn't have been able to create the empire he has. And there are plenty of planets without sentient life that could be mined for resources. But even if the ones with the right resources were those with sentient life, its not a business model that can last with such a small amount of planets.

Freeza is a fool, whatever else may be the case. Do we know if he deserves more credit than Cold for building the organization?

You don't seem to be imagining that people on those 28 planets could have a demand for more worlds. If you are, then what's not sustainable about it? Imagine our own context. Imagine England and America. Imagine being the Virginia Company and owning all this land that people want for various reasons. It doesn't even need to be sustainable, I don't know why that's so important for you; available land will eventually run out, but there's plenty of money to be made in the meantime. But it does become sustainable when you colonize on a universal scale.

As for why he'd still need an army if there weren't any planets left to clear out — why'd he need an army in the first place? It's seemingly largely just for vanity. If there were any practical purpose to it, it would have to be because the universe was so big he couldn't handle all the destruction by himself; so big he couldn't bring the order he wanted by himself. That reason can still serve: he still needs an army to enforce the established order, and to make sure that no one's getting anything that's not going through him first.

And surely his company had diversified at least a little beyond the one market of selling planets.

[FoolsGil]

If you're talking about supply and demand you're talking about populations as it's people who are buying the planets. Maybe there's an overpopulation crisis on some of the planets and they need new worlds to send their people. Maybe there's some megacorporation that requires large amounts of resources to complete some project. Maybe there's a decadent ecumenopolis whose elite desire their own personal vacation pleasure planets. These are common and easy sci-fi tropes for planetary exploitation that could apply here.

Okay let's say I am talking about populations. And I'm reading what you're saying about overpopulation, megacorps, and elitist who want their own planet, I get you. But there's only 28 sentient hosted life planets. If Freeza owns half the planets in the universe, and we're throwing Earth and new Namek out from this list, that's a total of 12 planets Freeza is going to work with for all business opportunities. And if three members of three different planets ask Freeza to clear out an extra planet for them for whatever their reason, there's 6 planets left that haven't been touched. Now, when the work has been done and transactions have been completed, Freeza has to make a decision: A) enslave one, some, or all of the remaining planets, at the cost of losing business if someone asks for another planet, or B) Wait around in the hopes that someone pays him more money to buy a planet. So, business isn't going to be doing to good, with a giant army waiting around for orders, and Freeza waiting around for a phone call. And then what happens when those 6 planets become 0? Who else is Freeza going to enslave? Who else is he going to sell planets to? That's why this doesn't work. Freeza can't be an intergalactic trader and/or lead an army with only 28 sentient life planets in the universe.

They don't have to be doing anything against Freeza. The local police/military force being unable to stand up against state/empire agents is another common trope.

Then they aren't a galactic patrol, they're an interplanetary defense force. And it's not about doing anything against Freeza, it's about how to work in a universe when there's a finite amount of planets and Freeza has eyes on every one of them because they're so finite. What planets are they protecting? The ones Freeza enslaved, the ones with the people rich enough to pay Freeza to commit genocide, or the ones that could be either enslaved or have their populations wiped out depending on what currency flows to Freeza or what mood he's in?

Freeza is a fool, whatever else may be the case. Do we know if he deserves more credit than Cold for building the organization?

Well than Cold is a bigger fool for giving his business to his fool of a son then. Doesn't quite add up either way.

You don't seem to be imagining that people on those 28 planets could have a demand for more worlds. If you are, then what's not sustainable about it? Imagine our own context. Imagine England and America. Imagine being the Virginia Company and owning all this land that people want for various reasons. It doesn't even need to be sustainable, I don't know why that's so important for you; available land will eventually run out, but there's plenty of money to be made in the meantime. But it does becomes sustainable when you colonize on a universal scale.

And when the land or planets eventually run out, what do you do? And it's important because we're in a topic discussion asking about 28 planets, and it was your decision to query me. It's important because conversation is important on this forum. Better question would be, why am I taking this seriously? Of course, I would just repeat my earlier statement if you asked me that.

As for why he'd still need an army if there weren't any planets left to clear out — why'd he need an army in the first place? It's seemingly largely just for vanity. If there were any practical purpose to it, it would have to be because the universe was so big he couldn't handle all the destruction himself. That reason can still serve: he needs an army to enforce order he established, and to make sure that no one's getting anything that's not going through him first.

And that's stupid. Not the vanity part. The practicality of having an army, and not being able to do anything with it because everyone is either enslaved or dead.

And surely his company had diversified at least a little beyond the one market of selling planets.

Yes, it has diversified to figuring out ways to kill Goku easier.

[Simere]

Okay let's say I am talking about populations. And I'm reading what you're saying about overpopulation, megacorps, and elitist who want their own planet, I get you. But there's only 28 sentient hosted life planets. If Freeza owns half the planets in the universe, and we're throwing Earth and new Namek out from this list, that's a total of 12 planets Freeza is going to work with for all business opportunities. And if three members of three different planets ask Freeza to clear out an extra planet for them for whatever their reason, there's 6 planets left that haven't been touched. Now, when the work has been done and transactions have been completed, Freeza has to make a decision: A) enslave one, some, or all of the remaining planets, at the cost of losing business if someone asks for another planet, or B) Wait around in the hopes that someone pays him more money to buy a planet. So, business isn't going to be doing to good, with a giant army waiting around for orders, and Freeza waiting around for a phone call. And then what happens when those 6 planets become 0? Who else is Freeza going to enslave? Who else is he going to sell planets to? That's why this doesn't work. Freeza can't be an intergalactic trader and/or lead an army with only 28 sentient life planets in the universe.

It doesn't have to be the 28 planets all in one pool trying to swallow each other up is what I'm saying. Maybe at one point, when the universe had a larger quantity of populated planets, it would more often be like that. But populated planets drying up doesn't necessarily mean the demand for planets would follow suit. If the demand remains, then Freeza's planet trading business would still be perfectly viable. Because there are still valuable planets in the universe that aren't populated, and the Planet Trade Organization controls access to them. The number of planets isn't relevant, only the number of buyers: one planet could have billions of prospective buyers.

Don't even need those buyers to be living on planets, I want to add. They could be living in space habitats.

Then they aren't a galactic patrol, they're an interplanetary defense force. And it's not about doing anything against Freeza, it's about how to work in a universe when there's a finite amount of planets and Freeza has eyes on every one of them because they're so finite. What planets are they protecting? The ones Freeza enslaved, the ones with the people rich enough to pay Freeza to commit genocide, or the ones that could be either enslaved or have their populations wiped out depending on what currency flows to Freeza or what mood he's in?

Maybe so. I see no problem if that were the case. Like I said, that happens. They do what they can, and they can't do anything against Freeza.

And when the land or planets eventually run out, what do you do? And it's important because we're in a topic discussion asking about 28 planets, and it was your decision to query me. It's important because conversation is important on this forum. Better question would be, why am I taking this seriously? Of course, I would just repeat my earlier statement if you asked me that.

You use your massive profits to move into other thriving markets, buy off governments for influence, or just retire. The importance I was questioning was sustainability for Freeza's business(and note that I said it would be sustainable). You're making it sound like sustainability has some inherent value. Some things don't last forever. Doesn't mean they're not profitable.

And that's stupid. Not the vanity part. The practicality of having an army, and not being able to do anything with it because everyone is either enslaved or dead.

Not being able to do anything with it? What about the things that I said? Empires don't disband their armies after they've conquered everything; they maintain them to ensure they retain what's been conquered.

[FoolsGil]

You use your massive profits to move into other thriving markets, buy off governments for influence, or just retire. The importance I was questioning was sustainability for Freeza's business(and note that I said it would be sustainable). You're making it sound like sustainability has some inherent value. Some things don't last forever. Doesn't mean they're not profitable.

Not being able to do anything with it? What about the things that I said? Empires don't disband their armies after they've conquered everything; they maintain them to ensure they retain what's been conquered.

Alright, I suppose that those are avenues that can be taken. Freeza could change his entire business model after wiping out planet after planet until there's only 28 left, but if he does that, he's not really Freeza anymore. It's not that I feel his business model should be sustainable for all time, it's that he was introduced to us as a certain way. And decades later a line is provided that doesn't just change the universes makeup, it changes who Freeza is as a character: His motivations, his reason for being, everything that we know about him other than his power. Sure, Freeza can change, his views on how to continue making money and sustain a military can change as well. but he wasn't supposed to, and because of this 28 planet line Toriyama apparently made, for the story to work, he has to.

[alakazam^]

Okay let's say I am talking about populations. And I'm reading what you're saying about overpopulation, megacorps, and elitist who want their own planet, I get you. But there's only 28 sentient hosted life planets. If Freeza owns half the planets in the universe, and we're throwing Earth and new Namek out from this list, that's a total of 12 planets Freeza is going to work with for all business opportunities. And if three members of three different planets ask Freeza to clear out an extra planet for them for whatever their reason, there's 6 planets left that haven't been touched. Now, when the work has been done and transactions have been completed, Freeza has to make a decision: A) enslave one, some, or all of the remaining planets, at the cost of losing business if someone asks for another planet, or B) Wait around in the hopes that someone pays him more money to buy a planet. So, business isn't going to be doing to good, with a giant army waiting around for orders, and Freeza waiting around for a phone call. And then what happens when those 6 planets become 0? Who else is Freeza going to enslave? Who else is he going to sell planets to? That's why this doesn't work. Freeza can't be an intergalactic trader and/or lead an army with only 28 sentient life planets in the universe.

You remember Planet Freeza #79? This means he sets up bases in unnocupied planets. Maybe he wants to secure strategical locations, maybe he wants to colonize them, maybe he just likes to have planets with his name.

You're also assuming he does business with every occupied planet. His army never found New Namekku, he never went to Earth before being defeated by Goku and he surely doesn't know about Zunou so they might not be aware of some of those other planets.

Also, there are several things he can do with those planets: trading, selling, occupying, mining, offer protection, etc.

Then they aren't a galactic patrol, they're an interplanetary defense force. And it's not about doing anything against Freeza, it's about how to work in a universe when there's a finite amount of planets and Freeza has eyes on every one of them because they're so finite. What planets are they protecting? The ones Freeza enslaved, the ones with the people rich enough to pay Freeza to commit genocide, or the ones that could be either enslaved or have their populations wiped out depending on what currency flows to Freeza or what mood he's in?

That's what they call themselves and we know they avoid Freeza at all costs.

There's still stuff for them to do: they catch criminals, they patrol, maybe they destroy incoming meteors, etc.

And that's stupid. Not the vanity part. The practicality of having an army, and not being able to do anything with it because everyone is either enslaved or dead.

Are you serious? His army is a display of power. Its use is for him to feel important and not dirty his hands.

He's smart enough not to kill every living being. Either way, his organization is just a hobby, there's no one to stop him from doing as he pleases, except Beers (by the Freeza arc).

The problem is that you're assuming way too much (do you even know how long he's been in that business? Do you know what he actually does?) and lacking imagination.

[Low Tone G]

I wouldn't defend the idea of 28 planets being inhabitated, but what if Freeza's business was "that" successful?

Let's think about it:
1. The main point is that Freeza wants planets with resources and without races who can interfere with his business.
2. There are 28 planets which have life on them, so they have been untouched, because Freeza's certainly wouldn't let them live on once they met him or his soldiers.
3. Maybe Freeza after getting the price for their planets, killed the people who performed the business with or enslaved them far from their home planets, which while were perfectly habitable for sapient life, became empty and lifeless.
4. Buu has been stated to destroy countless planets.
5. Beerus destroying them at random, based on his mood.

[FoolsGil]

You remember Planet Freeza #79? This means he sets up bases in unnocupied planets. Maybe he wants to secure strategical locations, maybe he wants to colonize them, maybe he just likes to have planets with his name.

You're also assuming he does business with every occupied planet. His army never found New Namekku, he never went to Earth before being defeated by Goku and he surely doesn't know about Zunou so they might not be aware of some of those other planets.

Also, there are several things he can do with those planets: trading, selling, occupying, mining, offer protection, etc.

His entire business model before the 28 planets line was selling planets, usually selling planets that needed to be cleared from inhabitants. Any extra things that he could also do, is because there are too few planets with sentient life and because for the story of Dragonball to work, he had to have been doing extra things, kind of like Master Roshi apparently training in the background all this time and no noticed until RoF and ToP sprang up.

There's still stuff for them to do: they catch criminals, they patrol, maybe they destroy incoming meteors, etc.

Yeah. In what 28 planets do they do this in: The planets that Freeza enslaved, the planets that have people that could buy planets with sentient life, or the planets that could either be enslaved by Freeza or wiped out depending on what currency flows into Freeza's pocket or what mood he's in?

Are you serious? His army is a display of power. Its use is for him to feel important and not dirty his hands.

He's smart enough not to kill every living being. Either way, his organization is just a hobby, there's no one to stop him from doing as he pleases, except Beers (by the Freeza arc).

The problem is that you're assuming way too much (do you even know how long he's been in that business? Do you know what he actually does?) and lacking imagination.

You're asking me questions like you know them. (excuse me for being serious, for shame!) But fact is you know just as little as me. Anyways:

1) A display of power, is an act of vanity. I have no issue with the idea of him being vain. But you can't feel important, and you can't make the excuse of not wanting to dirty your hands, if you have no one to show your importance to, or have anyone around to consider dirtying your hands.

2) I agree he is smart enough to not kill every living being. That's the whole point of my entire argument, he couldn't sustain a business model with 28 planets and enslave people, enlist people, and commit planetary genocide.

3) You don't know if his organization is his hobby or not. I like to think that since he inherited this from his father, he's a similar minded businessman. There's too much logistics involved to have people around so he wouldn't "dirty his hands."

4) Your problem is that you assume way too little, and think too much logic is a detriment to imagination. It's not. If anything it improves the imagination, keeps holes from being punched and helps to punch holes, when having discussions like this.

I wouldn't defend the idea of 28 planets being inhabitated, but what if Freeza's business was "that" successful?

Let's think about it:
1. The main point is that Freeza wants planets with resources and without races who can interfere with his business.
2. There are 28 planets which have life on them, so they have been untouched, because Freeza's certainly wouldn't let them live on once they met him or his soldiers.
3. Maybe Freeza after getting the price for their planets, killed the people who performed the business with or enslaved them far from their home planets, which while were perfectly habitable for sapient life, became empty and lifeless.
4. Buu has been stated to destroy countless planets.
5. Beerus destroying them at random, based on his mood.

Freeza, and his soldiers, had to have come from some of those 28 planets. And if Freeza killed or enslaved the people he made transactions with, he'll lose business. Eventually he would have killed or enslaved anyone rich enough for his services.

For Buu, those actions were reversed with a wish.

Beerus could have reduced all the sentient life of planets to 28 sure, but that only gives a reason to why there are so few, not if Freeza could make his business model work

[Dbzk1999]

For Buu, those actions were reversed with a wish.

Just for this bit, when? Cause the guy was destroying countless planets chronologically before the series started, and I’m pretty sure those planets weren’t wished back.

[FoolsGil]

For Buu, those actions were reversed with a wish.

Just for this bit, when? Cause the guy was destroying countless planets chronologically before the series started, and I’m pretty sure those planets weren’t wished back.

Ok, I forgot about the planets destroyed before the series started. My bad.

[Simere]

4) Your problem is that you assume way too little, and think too much logic is a detriment to imagination. It's not. If anything it improves the imagination, keeps holes from being punched and helps to punch holes, when having discussions like this.

It's kind of weird to lay claim to the grounds of logic while boasting of your many assumptions.

Check out this Stellaris mini-AAR I did in another attempt to show you how a business can be sustainable selling only to a small regional base:

[spoiler]

Here we are.



And here I am; Cold, aspiring king. I desire money but find myself without it. Strange circumstances. I know what I'll do: conquer my planet and sell it to whoever makes an offer!


Yes, hello. Salutations. I represent the, hum, Planet...Trade, er, Organization.

I sure am smart. Hey...if I can sell my own planet, maybe I can sell other planets?

Let's see here...


Would you guys like this barren wasteland? Hrm. This isn't nearly as much money as you gave me before. What? You're only interested in certain types of worlds? You might've just said so. Well:


I've got ice worlds!


I've got lava worlds!


I've got toxic worlds!


I've got gas worlds!


You want it, I've got it. Frightfully sorry, once again? "Holy" worlds? Worlds under the protection of immensely powerful ancient races? Like I give — I mean, sounds incredibly dangerous. Risky. I'd be putting a lot on the line. The rewards would naturally have to be commensurate...

We can settle up later. Oh, but I've still got those other worlds up for grabs. Any takers?





On the way to the holy land...



Your world is pretty worthless, if I have the right of things. All the worlds around here seem to be. But...together, those worthless worlds I had before were almost worth something. Hrm. If I had many worthless worlds, what might that be worth? Not worthy of my time, I think. Perhaps it's worth yours?










Cold came down the mountain with two contracts in hand...




Come now. We've presented you with this offer first as a show of respect. I must admit, even I was taken aback by this amount, but my analysts insist that this price accurately reflects market value, with only a modest appraisal of the considerable risk the Planet Trade Organization undertook in obtaining it.



I understand, I understand; it's regrettable, but I understand. I'm afraid I don't have any other products to present today. Our procurement operations were recently expanded, however, so look forward to no shortage of acquisitions in the near future.

Ah, but there is one final item. Identifying a small but growing need in the market, The Planet Trade Organization has initiated a new exclusive service for our clients:





Again, I understand your reluctance. Addressing the problem now may seem like more trouble than it's worth, but think to the future: the ancients provoked, the sudden uptick in displaced populations across the sector...how might these forces coalesce? Under whose direction? Times such as these are when clear vision is needed most. A prudent investment now can prevent untold losses in the future.





Meanwhile...

A customer who appreciates value.







Jumping ahead about two centuries, and ceasing the quasi-RP, this galaxy situation is comparable to what the universal situation might have looked like under Freeza. There are a few pockets of resistance, but things are largely under control. This is what you're calling an unsustainable business model, and yet:





















The Forerunners, the Jusstkan, and the rest of my client states(the pink regions on the left) are still in the market, as they've been from the beginning; it doesn't matter if I've wiped out almost everyone else: their planets are mine to sell now, and my subjugated clients are still around to buy them. You say this state of affairs is an "entirely different business model", but from start to finish all that's really changed is the scope of the operation.[/spoiler]

[FoolsGil]

4) Your problem is that you assume way too little, and think too much logic is a detriment to imagination. It's not. If anything it improves the imagination, keeps holes from being punched and helps to punch holes, when having discussions like this.

It's kind of weird to lay claim to the grounds of logic while boasting of your many assumptions.

Check out this Stellaris mini-AAR I did in another attempt to show you how a business can be sustainable selling only to a small regional base:

[spoiler]

Here we are.



And here I am; Cold, aspiring king. I desire money but find myself without it. Strange circumstances. I know what I'll do: conquer my planet and sell it to whoever makes an offer!


Yes, hello. Salutations. I represent the, hum, Planet...Trade, er, Organization.

I sure am smart. Hey...if I can sell my own planet, maybe I can sell other planets?

Let's see here...


Would you guys like this barren wasteland? Hrm. This isn't nearly as much money as you gave me before. What? You're only interested in certain types of worlds? You might've just said so. Well:


I've got ice worlds!


I've got lava worlds!


I've got toxic worlds!


I've got gas worlds!


You want it, I've got it. Frightfully sorry, once again? "Holy" worlds? Worlds under the protection of immensely powerful ancient races? Like I give — I mean, sounds incredibly dangerous. Risky. I'd be putting a lot on the line. The rewards would naturally have to be commensurate...

We can settle up later. Oh, but I've still got those other worlds up for grabs. Any takers?





On the way to the holy land...



Your world is pretty worthless, if I have the right of things. All the worlds around here seem to be. But...together, those worthless worlds I had before were almost worth something. Hrm. If I had many worthless worlds, what might that be worth? Not worthy of my time, I think. Perhaps it's worth yours?










Cold came down the mountain with two contracts in hand...




Come now. We've presented you with this offer first as a show of respect. I must admit, even I was taken aback by this amount, but my analysts insist that this price accurately reflects market value, with only a modest appraisal of the considerable risk the Planet Trade Organization undertook in obtaining it.



I understand, I understand; it's regrettable, but I understand. I'm afraid I don't have any other products to present today. Our procurement operations were recently expanded, however, so look forward to no shortage of acquisitions in the near future.

Ah, but there is one final item. Identifying a small but growing need in the market, The Planet Trade Organization has initiated a new exclusive service for our clients:





Again, I understand your reluctance. Addressing the problem now may seem like more trouble than it's worth, but think to the future: the ancients provoked, the sudden uptick in displaced populations across the sector...how might these forces coalesce? Under whose direction? Times such as these are when clear vision is needed most. A prudent investment now can prevent untold losses in the future.





Meanwhile...

A customer who appreciates value.







Jumping ahead about two centuries, and ceasing the quasi-RP, this galaxy situation is comparable to what the universal situation might have looked like under Freeza. There are a few pockets of resistance, but things are largely under control. This is what you're calling an unsustainable business model, and yet:





















The Forerunners, the Jusstkan, and the rest of my client states(the pink regions on the left) are still in the market, as they've been from the beginning; it doesn't matter if I've wiped out almost everyone else: their planets are mine to sell now, and my subjugated clients are still around to buy them. You say this state of affairs is an "entirely different business model", but from start to finish all that's really changed is the scope of the operation.[/spoiler]

You didn't have to, on the account that the series forces us to go through with their changes. After you brought this up earlier, I conceded: whether I want to or not, I have no choice but to accept Freeza and Cold doing all these extra things so the weight of the series doesn't collapse on itself. But thanks, I'll give your business model a look.

As for my assumptions...at least they make sense?

[Simere]

You didn't have to, on the account that the series forces us to go through with their changes. After you brought this up earlier, I conceded: whether I want to or not, I have no choice but to accept Freeza and Cold doing all these extra things so the weight of the series doesn't collapse on itself. But thanks, I'll give your business model a look.

As for my assumptions...at least they make sense?

You conceded that it would be an entirely different business model; my argument is that there's little, if any, difference. They aren't extra things, they were things he had to have been doing all along; things you'd assume a colonial tyrant was doing. Of course he was involved in extortion. Of course he had territory with rules he enforced. Of course some people were going along with it.

Planet selling is still what it's ultimately about. I don't know how the "addition" of empire functions for Emperor Freeza diminishes him for you.

[FoolsGil]

You didn't have to, on the account that the series forces us to go through with their changes. After you brought this up earlier, I conceded: whether I want to or not, I have no choice but to accept Freeza and Cold doing all these extra things so the weight of the series doesn't collapse on itself. But thanks, I'll give your business model a look.

As for my assumptions...at least they make sense?

You conceded that it would be an entirely different business model; my argument is that there's little, if any, difference. They aren't extra things, they were things he had to have been doing all along; things you'd assume a colonial tyrant with the title of Emperor was doing. Of course he was involved in extortion. Of course he had territory with rules he enforced. Of course some people were going along with it.

Dragonball Z told us one thing: He sold planets that he wiped out and the ones he didn't, he enslaved them and the strongest beings from those planets were put in his army. Well Pre-Super, that could only work swimmingly under the belief there were more than 28 sentient planets. And he didn't need to do anything more. There was no reason to think, Pre Super, that he needed to do anything else but sell Planets and build his army.

Now comes Super. Super says 28 planets. And now to keep the wheels turning on this train, Freeza would need to change and do things like extortion. Now you can continue to say "Oh, of course he did this. Of course he did that." And you can show off your business model on how it could still work with 28 planets, fine. But that doesn't mean that's how it was supposed to be when Freeza and his entire backstory came to be. Your model works because it has to. But that only comes after the fact. After the fact that Freeza's entire backstory was punched through and now there's duct tape needed. Your model is the duct tape.

[Simere]

Dragonball Z told us one thing: He sold planets that he wiped out and the ones he didn't, he enslaved them and the strongest beings from those planets were put in his army. Well Pre-Super, that could only work swimmingly under the belief there were more than 28 sentient planets. And he didn't need to do anything more. There was no reason to think, Pre Super, that he needed to do anything else but sell Planets and build his army.

Now comes Super. Super says 28 planets. And now to keep the wheels turning on this train, Freeza would need to change and do things like extortion. Now you can continue to say "Oh, of course he did this. Of course he did that." And you can show off your business model on how it could still work with 28 planets, fine. But that doesn't mean that's how it was supposed to be when Freeza and his entire backstory came to be. Your model works because it has to. But that only comes after the fact. After the fact that Freeza's entire backstory was punched through and now there's duct tape needed. Your model is the duct tape.

It told us a few more things than that. As alakazam^ said, we saw a planet he had under his control. It was even numbered which gave at least an implication more existed. He was referred to as ruler of the universe. He was named Emperor.

But it's punching a hole in his backstory to he had territory. That the Emperor did imperial things outside and within the empire.

You can't punch a hole in that backstory you say is his anyway. It would be like punching a feather, or a flat piece of paper. Rather than duct tape, my explanation is more akin to brick and mortar.

[FoolsGil]

Dragonball Z told us one thing: He sold planets that he wiped out and the ones he didn't, he enslaved them and the strongest beings from those planets were put in his army. Well Pre-Super, that could only work swimmingly under the belief there were more than 28 sentient planets. And he didn't need to do anything more. There was no reason to think, Pre Super, that he needed to do anything else but sell Planets and build his army.

Now comes Super. Super says 28 planets. And now to keep the wheels turning on this train, Freeza would need to change and do things like extortion. Now you can continue to say "Oh, of course he did this. Of course he did that." And you can show off your business model on how it could still work with 28 planets, fine. But that doesn't mean that's how it was supposed to be when Freeza and his entire backstory came to be. Your model works because it has to. But that only comes after the fact. After the fact that Freeza's entire backstory was punched through and now there's duct tape needed. Your model is the duct tape.

It told us a few more things than that. As alakazam^ said, we saw a planet he had under his control. It was even numbered which gave at least an implication more existed. He was referred to as ruler of the universe. He was named Emperor.

But it's punching a hole in his backstory to he had territory. That the Emperor did imperial things outside and within the empire.

You can't punch a hole in that backstory you say is his anyway. It would be like punching a feather, or a flat piece of paper. Rather than duct tape, my explanation is more akin to brick and mortar.

Well it's your opinion, of course it matters to you. That doesn't mean what I said is incorrect. It works, because the series needs it to work, or it will fall flat on itself.

[Simere]

Well it's your opinion, of course it matters to you. That doesn't mean what I said is incorrect. It works, because the series needs it to work, or it will fall flat on itself.

It's not my opinion, it's my explanation of what you said would be impossible. At this point, I'm more interested in how you think you can be a ruler and an Emperor without territory.