Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Simere
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:01 am

SayianBeyondGod wrote:
Simere wrote: This explanation would explain why a bullet will penetrate a person but a punch won't. It would explain why a Kamehameha would penetrate but not a large spherical Big Bank Attack. It doesn't explain the difference in results of Vegeta's and Trunks's Galick Gun vs Goku's Kamehameha; they were two identical shapes that impacted roughly the same area. Which is why I asked you to explain where you're basing the intent behind either attack, because it's certainly not explained by how they look.
I'm assuming you're going by vague memory here. Watch both scenes clearly and you'll see a obvious visual difference between ki blast struggles. In the galick gun scene we see it impact most of the front surface area of the divine purification, which was much greater than what the Kamekameha did. We also see the galick gun earlier producing shockwaves which spread across the divine purification earlier which may imply the galick gun is having an affect on the entire front surface area rather than a small specific section, which is something we didn't see with the kamekameha.
Only the beam is the impact area, the rest is just energy splashing off. And, anyway, it's just a trick of perspective that it's splashing across the whole thing, don't you see a few seconds after you linked where we see it's not?

Image

Image

The same thing happened with the Kamehameha. From one angle it looks like the energy is scattering over a greater area, but from another angle the splash zone is much smaller.

What can perhaps be said is that when Goku won the clash the beam became much larger, which comes back to the question I posed about penetration vs moving. A punch that suddenly became strong enough to punch through your chest would also move you back if it didn't penetrate. Goku's Kamehameha would have similarly moved it back if the Holy Wrath were strong enough to resist penetration.

Also, see the shockwaves in the Kamehameha clash?

By the way, I forgot it was called Holy Wrath. You got me messed up ZombieVito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:29 am

JazzMazz wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Him pushing back Merged Zamasu's blast when Vegeta and Trunks together couldn't disagrees and it's a better feat than Vegeta beating up Black.
Ok well thats what I'm saying. It is literally the biggest power scaling inconsistency in all of DBS. Especially since they form Vegetto who still has a tough time with Zamasu even though Goku's KHH overpowered him before. He did no training in between and is still weaker than Goku Black. So the scene just makes absolutely no sense.
Its really not. like, at all. Its fairly easy to rationalize why Goku was able to overpower Merged Zamasu's blast and do damage when Vegeta and Trunks couldn't.

To put it simply, his Goku. He had the willpower necessary to exert power far beyond what he should be capable of. Its pretty much become a part of the character at this point.
Uhh ok so Goku can arbitrarily exert as much power as is convenient at that time because he can randomly exert power "far beyond" what he should be capable of? Still sounds like an inconsistency to me. I'm sorry, I love DBS but this is just a mistake by the staff.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:02 pm

PFM18 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Ok well thats what I'm saying. It is literally the biggest power scaling inconsistency in all of DBS. Especially since they form Vegetto who still has a tough time with Zamasu even though Goku's KHH overpowered him before. He did no training in between and is still weaker than Goku Black. So the scene just makes absolutely no sense.
Its really not. like, at all. Its fairly easy to rationalize why Goku was able to overpower Merged Zamasu's blast and do damage when Vegeta and Trunks couldn't.

To put it simply, his Goku. He had the willpower necessary to exert power far beyond what he should be capable of. Its pretty much become a part of the character at this point.
Uhh ok so Goku can arbitrarily exert as much power as is convenient at that time because he can randomly exert power "far beyond" what he should be capable of? Still sounds like an inconsistency to me. I'm sorry, I love DBS but this is just a mistake by the staff.
Why?

He puts out so much power he can't even use his arms anymore; not even the Final Flash did that to Vegeta when he used his attack against Perfect Cell. Roshi's Max-Power Kamehameha, basically the same kind of technique in terms of power compared to the user, could blow up the Earth's moon easily despite even King Piccolo having trouble putting out that kind of power, and Roshi didn't even break his arms like Goku did. Goku's Kamehameha against Raditz was charged up enough compared to his "regular power level" to actually force Raditz to block it, and he didn't come out of that unscathed either. Vegeta, using the Final Explosion, killed himself but was able to completely blow up Majin Buu despite failing to do much of anything with his "regular power" as a SS2.

Putting a lot of power into a single attack is a noted means of hitting opponents above your paygrade, ESPECIALLY if you put out enough to damage your own body.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:00 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Putting a lot of power into a single attack is a noted means of hitting opponents above your paygrade, ESPECIALLY if you put out enough to damage your own body.
This. Also, Fused Zamasu blatantly powered up after that which is why he was able to give Vegito a harder time. Even the supplementary materials suggest that his mutated form is stronger than his regular one.

If Blue's "full power" was enough to harm him in the manga, there's no reason the same can't be true of the anime. Something about that plausibly could have been included in the outline too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:07 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Putting a lot of power into a single attack is a noted means of hitting opponents above your paygrade, ESPECIALLY if you put out enough to damage your own body.
This. Also, Fused Zamasu blatantly powered up after that which is why he was able to give Vegito a harder time. Even the supplementary materials suggest that his mutated form is stronger than his regular one.

If Blue's "full power" was enough to harm him in the manga, there's no reason the same can't be true of the anime. Something about that plausibly could have been included in the outline too.
Even if it wasn't, the general concept seems to have almost certainly been shared between Toyotaro and Toei, though they seemed to have gone in slightly different directions in terms of interpreting what this meant.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:14 pm

Simere wrote:What can perhaps be said is that when Goku won the clash the beam became much larger, which comes back to the question I posed about penetration vs moving. A punch that suddenly became strong enough to punch through your chest would also move you back if it didn't penetrate. Goku's Kamehameha would have similarly moved it back if the Holy Wrath were strong enough to resist penetration.

Also, see the shockwaves in the Kamehameha clash?
Visual aspects of ki beams aside. In order for the Galick Gun to push back the entire divine purification, the entire spread out force of the surface area must be overcome and pushed back as well along with it. The shockwaves seem to indicate that force is being spread around the entire front surface area, something the Kamekameha didn't show at all. Unlike with Goku the Kamekameka didn't served to push it entirely back, but rather penetrate a hole of a more limited area while leaving the rest of it intact causing to later denote when Zamasu lost control of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:30 pm

It's no secret that Goku's full power Kamehameha > Trunks/Vegeta's Galick-Ho combination. Goku overpowered Fused Zamas and actually injured him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:00 pm

SayianBeyondGod wrote:Visual aspects of ki beams aside. In order for the Galick Gun to push back the entire divine purification, the entire spread out force of the surface area must be overcome and pushed back as well along with it. The shockwaves seem to indicate that force is being spread around the entire front surface area, something the Kamekameha didn't show at all. Unlike with Goku the Kamekameka didn't served to push it entirely back, but rather penetrate a hole of a more limited area while leaving the rest of it intact causing to later denote when Zamasu lost control of it.
I have no idea what shockwaves indicate. Nothing, I thought. Isn't it literally hot air? Isn't the fact that it's originating from one area proof that area is the most affected? Doesn't its momentum being stopped already say the entire force is being overcome? But from Zamasu's view we see the same concentric shockwaves emanating from the front. We can also see shockwaves pulsating across the sphere in these two shots, easier to see in motion though certainly not as visible as with the Galick Gun.

Back to the beams. Again, something can be penetrated with more force than it takes to move it. Someone can be shoved backwards with a rod, or that same rod can be impaled through them with far more force. Saying that they were the same shape and size and have the same attributes(that is, not an attack with special piercing properties), doesn't the fact the Galick Gun didn't penetrate where the Kamehameha did necessarily mean the Galick Gun was less force?

By the way...with how deep we are into analyzing the imagery, it might as well be pointed out now that we don't actually see that the Galick Gun moved the blast. We don't see anything but the Galick Gun start to overwhelm Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:48 am

Simere wrote: But from Zamasu's view we see the same concentric shockwaves emanating from the front. We can also see shockwaves pulsating across the sphere in these two shots, easier to see in motion though certainly not as visible as with the Galick Gun.
That isn't shockwaves but rather some kind of visible air resistance we see from the divine purification, we see it even earlier when colliding against the Kamekameha. Explains why we don't see any produced shockwaves produced by the kamekameha when in Goku's point of view.

Simere wrote: Back to the beams. Again, something can be penetrated with more force than it takes to move it. Someone can be shoved backwards with a rod, or that same rod can be impaled through them with far more force. Saying that they were the same shape and size and have the same attributes(that is, not an attack with special piercing properties), doesn't the fact the Galick Gun didn't penetrate where the Kamehameha did necessarily mean the Galick Gun was less force?
Again, the entire ki sphere is made up of force which is spread out across it's entire surface area hence why it'll be weaker force per unit area due to sheer size. The galick gun is pushing back the entire divine purification with it's spread out force as well. Goku's kamekameha isn't pushing the entire thing back and is only putting pressure on a smaller specific area which again is a fraction of the entire force as most of the force is spread. Why do you think 17 could push through Aniraza ki blast but the rest of the U7 fighters failed to overpowered it? You're example is only including one acting force with something which is stationary, which is not the argument, not to mention durability is a key factor to that example. What I'm arguing which blast is dealing with more force output.
Simere wrote:By the way...with how deep we are into analyzing the imagery, it might as well be pointed out now that we don't actually see that the Galick Gun moved the blast. We don't see anything but the Galick Gun start to overwhelm Zamasu.
We see the divine purification denoted once the galick gun pushed right into Zamasu implying it was entirely overpowered while with the Kamekameha the divine purification it was still intact when the Kamekameha penetrated through and hit Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:12 am

Just when I thought Time Breaker Bardock was powerful, we have Xeno King Vegeta implying he's stronger than Beerus. Which makes him above Hakaishin tier if true.

Image

If I were to scale Heroes(exclude angels and Zeno) it'll go:
1. Xeno Vegeta
2. Time Breaker masked SSJ3 Bardock
3. Ultra Instinct Goku
4. Jiren
5. SSBE Vegeta

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:16 am

SayianBeyondGod wrote:That isn't shockwaves but rather some kind of visible air resistance we see from the divine purification, we see it even earlier when colliding against the Kamekameha. Explains why we don't see any produced shockwaves produced by the kamekameha when in Goku's point of view.
Those aren't the same waves. One's a circle expanding off and away, the other is a stream whipping over and back. The latter is what you're talking about. And I pointed out the scenes you do see them from the anterior.
Again, the entire ki sphere is made up of force which is spread out across it's entire surface area hence why it'll be weaker force per unit area due to sheer size. The galick gun is pushing back the entire divine purification with it's spread out force as well. Goku's kamekameha isn't pushing the entire thing back and is only putting pressure on a smaller specific area which again is a fraction of the entire force as most of the force is spread.
And, again, that alone isn't enough to conclude that penetrating took less force. Some penetrations take less force, but it's not an inherent fact of penetration that it would have been harder to move by the same method. If the Kamehameha and the Galick Gun were the same shape impacting the same area, and one penetrated and the other didn't, what does that tell you?

The needle vs hammer bit, it's understood, that's not the part you need to explain. You need to explain the basis for saying the Galick Gun's force was more spread out than the Kamehameha, when we know them to have the same properties. Shockwaves are your answer, seemingly, but you're not saying why, just asserting it. Concentric shockwaves radiating out from the impact tells me that's where the force is concentrated. If it were more spread out I would expect shockwaves emitting from multiple areas, or starting from farther towards the edge of the sphere. And once you do explain how the Galick Gun's force is casting farther than it appears to be, that would only explain why the Galick Gun didn't penetrate. You would still need to explain how you're concluding the penetration was necessarily less force.

Here's a quick way you can tell both blasts are pushing against the whole thing: it's not moving.
You're example is only including one acting force with something which is stationary, which is not the argument, not to mention durability is a key factor to that example. What I'm arguing which blast is dealing with more force output.
I didn't say stationary. Go ahead and have the person trying to push back against the rod. Is it now easier to penetrate them than it is to push them back? No, penetration is still harder.

And what do you mean not to mention? No, mention. It's almost entirely what we're talking about. Resistance to pressure is durability. You're arguing that the Holy Wrath had a low enough durability to be penetrated by what you say was a weaker but more concentrated Kamehameha; low enough that it was easier to penetrate than it was to move.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:
Simere wrote:By the way...with how deep we are into analyzing the imagery, it might as well be pointed out now that we don't actually see that the Galick Gun moved the blast. We don't see anything but the Galick Gun start to overwhelm Zamasu.
We see the divine purification denoted once the galick gun pushed right into Zamasu implying it was entirely overpowered while with the Kamekameha the divine purification it was still intact when the Kamekameha penetrated through and hit Zamasu.
We don't see it detonate. Something exploded but we don't know what. We only see purple light on Zamasu. That implies the Garlick Gun consumed the Holy Wrath along its path, so there was nothing left of it to explode. The Galick Gun exploded.

But if the Holy Wrath did explode...and we saw nothing but purple light...that would mean the Galick Gun also penetrated.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:55 am

Simere wrote: Those aren't the same waves. One's a circle expanding off and away, the other is a stream whipping over and back. The latter is what you're talking about. And I pointed out the scenes you do see them from the anterior.
Both seem to be coming towards Zamasu way or from behind the divine purification, rather than from the Kamekameha since we don't see any similar produce shockwaves like with the galick gun in Goku view.
Simere wrote: And, again, that alone isn't enough to conclude that penetrating took less force. Some penetrations take less force, but it's not an inherent fact of penetration that it would have been harder to move by the same method. If the Kamehameha and the Galick Gun were the same shape impacting the same area, and one penetrated and the other didn't, what does that tell you?
It does considering that total force is being spread out so there's a clear difference of resistance of force when pushing whole area back or puncturing a smaller area of it's spread out force hence weaker force per unit. What you're arguing seems to more so factor the durability of object rather than amount of force dealt with in comparison to surface area. I don't need to argue the relevancy of beam size when one is pushing back more volume than the other.
Simere wrote: The needle vs hammer bit, it's understood, that's not the part you need to explain. You need to explain the basis for saying the Galick Gun's force was more spread out than the Kamehameha, when we know them to have the same properties. Shockwaves are your answer, seemingly, but you're not saying why, just asserting it. Concentric shockwaves radiating out from the impact tells me that's where the force is concentrated. If it were more spread out I would expect shockwaves emitting from multiple areas, or starting from farther towards the edge of the sphere. And once you do explain how the Galick Gun's force is casting farther than it appears to be, that would only explain why the Galick Gun didn't penetrate. You would still need to explain how you're concluding the penetration was necessarily less force.
Again I don't think you understand what I'm arguing, the galick gun is pushing back more volume and surface area of the divine purification, and if you been remembering what I'm telling you force is spread among it's surface area. Think it as this way, a punch can produce 800 psi but that's just per inch not the entire surface area of the fist or the force from the entire fist. With the Kamekameha it's pushing through a fraction of the volume/area of the divine purification with it still being intact and stationary after penetration. Rest of it's surface area with it's force is still there and wasn't overcome at all. I don't think I need to argue shockwaves as the former argument is more important and clearer. If you about isn't why U7 struggled much more to overcome Aniraza's entire ki sphere while 17 alone had less issue pushing through a small area so he wasn't dealing with the entire force of the sphere.


Simere wrote:I didn't say stationary. Go ahead and have the person trying to push back against the rod. Is it now easier to penetrate them than it is to push them back? No, penetration is still harder.

And what do you mean not to mention? No, mention. It's almost entirely what we're talking about. Resistance to pressure is durability. You're arguing that the Holy Wrath had a low enough durability to be penetrated by what you say was a weaker but more concentrated Kamehameha; low enough that it was easier to penetrate than it was to move.
You never gave the context of the person having any force to begin with at all. But regardless I don't like this example as the human body has a specific durability limit and is going to correlate less with how much force is going to be overcome. Here's a better example using the same objects which would being easier to push back, assuming person is moving as well, A) the rod up against the person torso hence pushing his entire body or B) the rod against a specific area such as head or arm.
Simere wrote: We don't see it detonate. Something exploded but we don't know what. We only see purple light on Zamasu. That implies the Garlick Gun consumed the Holy Wrath along its path, so there was nothing left of it to explode. The Galick Gun exploded.

But if the Holy Wrath did explode...and we saw nothing but purple light...that would mean the Galick Gun also penetrated.
We do, hence the orange emiting flash which is the same color of explosion the divine purification had later and what it's colour. The purple light is when the galick gun is begining to consume the divine purification and exploded was completely consumed and hit Zamasu.

Unlike Goku when it was still intact after being penereated and the Kamekameha hit Zamasu. There's also the fact the divine purification stood mostly staionary with the kamekameha yet was entirely being moved back at a rate with the galick gun if you watch eariler which is when Zamasu begin to get worried.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:24 pm

Why the hell would Xeno King Vegeta be stronger than Beerus....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:27 pm

Bullza wrote:Why the hell would Xeno King Vegeta be stronger than Beerus....
Don't know....Why? was that in heroes or something?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:46 pm

Bullza wrote:Why the hell would Xeno King Vegeta be stronger than Beerus....
Because Heroes :P

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:52 pm

If he is stronger than Beerus, that doesn't mean he is stronger than Jiren or UI Goku, not by that fact alone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:19 am

King Vegeta:Xeno WANTS and blieves to be able to defeat Beerus, but we don't know if that's actually correct.

It's perfectly possible he's underestimating him

EDIT: also, he absorbed the power of the Mask, which gives an incredible powerboost

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:10 pm

Wait, are you people trying to actually explain why Goku did better than Vegeta n Trunks vs Merged Zamasu? Cos the real reason is simply, it was in the outline. So they kinda had to do something that one ups Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:39 pm

buutenks wrote:Wait, are you people trying to actually explain why Goku did better than Vegeta n Trunks vs Merged Zamasu? Cos the real reason is simply, it was in the outline. So they kinda had to do something that one ups Vegeta.
Isn't the point of these strength/powerscaling threads kinda to not resort to out-of-universe explanations like these? Of course the "real" reason for any character's power is that the writers have decided that a certain thing is going to happen, but that kind of explanation is... trivial, in a way. I'm sure there's a better word than trivial, but it should get the point across well enough.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:12 pm

You guys are just gonna have to accept the canon fact that Goku was stronger than Trunks and Vegeta's combined attack.
Goku was sandbagging that second arrival and finally used his full power against fused Zamas.

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