Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Zamasu55]

Just saw manga leaks.

Dis gon be gud.

That makes perfect sense.
Base Kale was already much faster than Ssj Cabba, and probably stronger too.
So yeah, in her Berserker state she'd be able to do what she's doing to Freeza.

The manga has its defects, but the power scale is almost perfect. Almost.

[JazzMazz]

Just saw manga leaks.

Dis gon be gud.

That makes perfect sense.
Base Kale was already much faster than Ssj Cabba, and probably stronger too.
So yeah, in her Berserker state she'd be able to do what she's doing to Freeza.

The manga has its defects, but the power scale is almost perfect. Almost.

Just because she was able to steal something under SS Cabba's nose, doesn't mean she's more powerful.

Also, she is dominating Golden Freeza from what I've seen, who is roughly on par with CSSB Goku.

[Zamasu55]

Just saw manga leaks.

Dis gon be gud.

That makes perfect sense.
Base Kale was already much faster than Ssj Cabba, and probably stronger too.
So yeah, in her Berserker state she'd be able to do what she's doing to Freeza.

The manga has its defects, but the power scale is almost perfect. Almost.

Just because she was able to steal something under SS Cabba's nose, doesn't mean she's more powerful.

Also, she is dominating Golden Freeza from what I've seen, who is roughly on par with CSSB Goku.

It's Dragon Ball. When you're faster than your opponent, then you're automatically stronger in most cases. The only exception I remember was Burter, whose power was comparable to Jeice's and Rekoome's and weaker than Ginyu.

Goku's fight with Freeza was offscreen. We don't know if Goku used Completed Ssj Blue in the first place.

[Desassina]

Kale is doing the exact same thing as Trunks from the anime in the manga. The ascended form past God SSJ might as well be SSJ Rage or Berserk.

[Lord Beerus]

That makes perfect sense.
Base Kale was already much faster than Ssj Cabba, and probably stronger too.
So yeah, in her Berserker state she'd be able to do what she's doing to Freeza.

The manga has its defects, but the power scale is almost perfect. Almost.

Just because she was able to steal something under SS Cabba's nose, doesn't mean she's more powerful.

Also, she is dominating Golden Freeza from what I've seen, who is roughly on par with CSSB Goku.

It's Dragon Ball. When you're faster than your opponent, then you're automatically stronger in most cases. The only exception I remember was Burter, whose power was comparable to Jeice's and Rekoome's and weaker than Ginyu.

Goku's fight with Freeza was offscreen. We don't know if Goku used Completed Ssj Blue in the first place.

Um... Dyspo? He's faster than Goku, but he sure as he isn't more powerful.

[Zamasu55]

Just because she was able to steal something under SS Cabba's nose, doesn't mean she's more powerful.

Also, she is dominating Golden Freeza from what I've seen, who is roughly on par with CSSB Goku.

It's Dragon Ball. When you're faster than your opponent, then you're automatically stronger in most cases. The only exception I remember was Burter, whose power was comparable to Jeice's and Rekoome's and weaker than Ginyu.

Goku's fight with Freeza was offscreen. We don't know if Goku used Completed Ssj Blue in the first place.

Um... Dyspo?

Super is a mess and I left it out. I was referring to DB and DBZ.
And what they did with Dyspo is the perfect example. In Z, Burter was much faster than Ginyu, but he would still get his ass handed to him in a fight.

[Lord Beerus]

It's Dragon Ball. When you're faster than your opponent, then you're automatically stronger in most cases. The only exception I remember was Burter, whose power was comparable to Jeice's and Rekoome's and weaker than Ginyu.

Goku's fight with Freeza was offscreen. We don't know if Goku used Completed Ssj Blue in the first place.

Um... Dyspo?

Super is a mess and I left it out. I was referring to DB and DBZ.
And what they did with Dyspo is the perfect example. In Z, Burter was much faster than Ginyu, but he would still get his ass handed to him in a fight.

But even in DB and Z, there were several cases where characters appeared faster in combat than their opponent, but were not physically stronger than them.

[Zamasu55]

Um... Dyspo?

Super is a mess and I left it out. I was referring to DB and DBZ.
And what they did with Dyspo is the perfect example. In Z, Burter was much faster than Ginyu, but he would still get his ass handed to him in a fight.

But even in DB and Z, there were several cases where characters appeared faster in combat than their opponent, but were not physically stronger than them.

For example?

[Desassina]

Cell increased his speed to go after SSJ Gohan in the Cell Games. That doesn't mean that he didn't increase power, but it was only noted that it was his speed, due to how avoidant Gohan was.

[ZombieVito]

Leaving the Kale mess aside, it does look Freeza transforms to fight Super Saiyan Caulifla. This should confirm he is base tier while in his final form.

Let's see how this plays out.

[Zamasu55]

Leaving the Kale mess aside, it does look Freeza transforms to fight Super Saiyan Caulifla. This should confirm he is base tier while in his final form.

Let's see how this plays out.

I don't think so, but even if that's the case it wouldn't matter simply because anime and manga aren't the same thing and never will be.

[ZombieVito]

I don't think so, but even if that's the case it wouldn't matter simply because anime and manga aren't the same thing and never will be.

Keep telling yourself that.

They come from the same source (Toriyama's outline) and have a lot more similarities than differences. If something is not contradicted then it can be used for the anime.

[Zamasu55]

I don't think so, but even if that's the case it wouldn't matter simply because anime and manga aren't the same thing and never will be.

Keep telling yourself that.

They come from the same source (Toriyama's outline) and have a lot more similarities than differences. If something is not contradicted then it can be used for the anime.

No, it's a fact. And there are more differences actually.

- Kaiohken isn't a thing and never will be.
- Normal Ssj Blue loses almost all its power if you use it twice.
- Time-skip doesn't work if the opponent's stronger than the user.
- Future Zamasu isn't Ssj Blue tier.
- Black Goku can't turn Ssj in the anime.
- Vegeta can't turn Ssj God in the anime.
- Merged Zamasu is completely immortal in the manga.
- Merged Zamasu doesn't have a time limit in the manga.
- Merged Zamasu is miles behind SsjB Vegetto.
- Trunks never unlocks transformations which were never explained in the anime.
- Jiren's entire character is different in the manga.
- Roh isn't an asshole.
- 17 isn't God tier.
- Caulifla never unlocks Ssj2 out of nowhere.
- The Trio De Danger have no unique abilities.
- Dyspo's speed is useless against stronger opponents.

And I could go on.

[Lord Beerus]

New leaks have arrived Beserker SSJ Kale takes on CSSJB Goku... and seems to get the advantage.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Marlowe89]

Does anyone recall all the wild debates we had about Kale's strength when Episode 100 aired? This is that all over again. Good times.

Could be another one of those situations where her power fluctuates based on how berserk her state of mind is, or maybe she really was intended to be Blue tier all along.

Leaving the Kale mess aside, it does look Freeza transforms to fight Super Saiyan Caulifla. This should confirm he is base tier while in his final form.

Not exactly. That just suggests that Final Form Freeza is weaker than the Super Saiyans. You have to remember that there's a fifty-fold difference between those two states, and Freeza could be anywhere between them. It does, however, appear to disprove the notion of him being stronger than Super Saiyan.

[Lord Beerus]

This is speculative, but this apparently a brief summary of what happens in the latest chapter:

- Final Form Freeza beats up Base Caulifla
- Caulifla goes SSJ, which forces Freeza to use his Golden form, as Final Form Freeza can't keep up SSJ Caulifla.
- Golden Frieza is too much for SSJ Caulifla and she gets her ass kicked.
- Kale uses short bursts of her power to try and help Caulifla against Freeza, but it doesn't anything significant as Freeza practically no sells most of the attacks.
- Cabba jumps in, turns SSJ and joins Caulifla to fight Golden Freeza.
- Golden Freeza given both SSJ Cabba and Caulifla a bad beating, which angers Kale who transforms into her Super Saiyan form.
- SSJ Kale beats the shit out of Golden Freeza and nearly rings him out until Goku saves him.
- Goku transforms Complete SSJB and fights back against SSJ Kale.
- SSJ Kale gets more angry, which leads to her power rising, attacking CSSJ Goku continuously until he lose his guard and is overwhelmed.
- Golden Frieza kicks CSSJB Goku away to prevent him from getting battered by an angry (and evermore increasing in power) SSJ Kale
- SSJ Kale power ups even more and starts to beef up in muscle.

End of chapter.

So according to the chapter:

Final Form Freeza > Base (U6) Saiyans
SSJ Caulifla > Final Form Freeza
Golden Freeza > SSJ Caulifla/Cabba
SSJ Kale > Golden Freeza
SSJB Goku = SSJ Kale

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Does anyone recall all the wild debates we had about Kale's strength when Episode 100 aired? This is that all over again. Good times.

Could be another one of those situations where her power fluctuates based on how berserk her state of mind is, or maybe she really was intended to be Blue tier all along.

Leaving the Kale mess aside, it does look Freeza transforms to fight Super Saiyan Caulifla. This should confirm he is base tier while in his final form.

Not exactly. That just suggests that Final Form Freeza is weaker than the Super Saiyans. You have to remember that there's a fifty-fold difference between those two states, and Freeza could be anywhere between them. It does, however, appear to disprove the notion of him being stronger than Super Saiyan.

The question then remains on where he stands compared to the likes of Piccolo, 18, Majin Buu, etc., in terms of his "general" power level.

If we can figure that out, we might have an idea of where everyone truly rests, like whether or not the base Saiyans save Goten and Trunks (because OF COURSE they're weaker than everyone) are stronger than Piccolo and/or Buu, or if it's Super Saiyan, etc.

[BlueBasilisk]

Not exactly. That just suggests that Final Form Freeza is weaker than the Super Saiyans. You have to remember that there's a fifty-fold difference between those two states, and Freeza could be anywhere between them. It does, however, appear to disprove the notion of him being stronger than Super Saiyan.

It's a little iffy since his power differed between the movie and the series. Movie Goku had the clear edge while anime Goku said he couldn't beat him like that. Frieza never fights a normal Super Saiyan in the series so all that we have to go on is that he's stronger than base Cabba but weaker than SS2 Cabba and that his Golden Form appears to be right in the same ballpark as SSB Goku. Since the manga seems to follow the movie then yeah, it would appear he skews closer to base Saiyan.

[ankokudaishogun]

So according to the chapter:
Final Form Freeza > Base (U6) Saiyans
SSJ Caulifla > Final Form Freeza
Golden Freeza > SSJ Caulifla/Cabba

This can play only in two ways:

Manga Freeza's Final Form isn't ultra-powerful like in the anime. Worth to remember we never had an official RoF arc in the Super Manga(the RoF manga is not technically part of the Super manga)

-OR-

Base u6 Saiyans are Beyond God level.

[Marlowe89]

it would appear he skews closer to base Saiyan.

Looking at the raw version of the chapter, I'm inclined to disagree. Freeza and Super Saiyan Caulifla looked like they were roughly in the same tier, with Caulifla having the upper hand. It was only through a feinting strategy that she was able to get a full decisive advantage over Freeza, who transformed into his Golden form in retaliation. Moreover, he was easily wiping the floor with her in her base form.

I'd say it's probably something like: Super Saiyan Caulifla > Final Form Freeza >>> (base) Saiyans.