Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Some tidbits about Dragon Ball Super Manga Chapter 37 I would like to highlight..

- Freeza confirmed Base Kale is stronger than SS Caulifla, this may give precedence to Base Kefla being stronger than SSG.
- Golden Freeza apparently can handle SS Kale if he takes her seriously. Though, she isn’t at full power yet.

[Miracles]

Friendly neighborhood reminder....Kale is Blue level in both anime/manga.

[dragon boss z]

- Freeza confirmed Base Kale is stronger than SS Caulifla, this may give precedence to Base Kefla being stronger than SSG.

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

[PFM18]

- Freeza confirmed Base Kale is stronger than SS Caulifla, this may give precedence to Base Kefla being stronger than SSG.

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

I mean none of this matters since Kefla won't be in the manga

[Hugo Boss]

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

No what? Freeza literally told Kale’s hits were stronger than SS Caulifla’s, to Caulifla’s surprise. So, Kale, after powering up with Potara, is obviously far stronger than SS Caulifla.

Kefla won't be in the manga

How do you know that?

[JazzMazz]

- Freeza confirmed Base Kale is stronger than SS Caulifla, this may give precedence to Base Kefla being stronger than SSG.

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

I mean none of this matters since Kefla won't be in the manga

I mean, they've definitely set it up subtlety.

The universe 6 Kaioshin isn't wearing his potara.

[Jack Bz]

- Freeza confirmed Base Kale is stronger than SS Caulifla, this may give precedence to Base Kefla being stronger than SSG.

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

Of course SSG is stronger than ssj Caulifla, but Kefla is a fusion

[Lord Beerus]

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

I mean none of this matters since Kefla won't be in the manga

I mean, they've definitely set it up subtlety.

The universe 6 Kaioshin isn't wearing his potara.

Man, if Kefla ends up happening in the manga, she's gonna be monstrously strong.

[PFM18]

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

No what? Freeza literally told Kale’s hits were stronger than SS Caulifla’s, to Caulifla’s surprise. So, Kale, after powering up with Potara, is obviously far stronger than SS Caulifla.

Kefla won't be in the manga

How do you know that?

In the anime Kefla gave SSB Goku a challenge. In the manga Kale is giving SSB Goku a challenge. It certainly appears to me the manga is using Kale as a substitute for Kefla in the anime.

If they were to fuse, theres no way Goku could stop them especially since Ultra Instinct Omen isnt a thing in the manga and the actual Ultra Instinct probably wont happen until Jiren

Friendly neighborhood reminder....Kale is Blue level in both anime/manga.

False. This has already been thoroughly discussed though

[Marlowe89]

There's not a whole lot of evidence one way or the other as to whether Super Saiyan Kale (or a hypothetical Kefla, for that matter) is any different than her anime counterpart. Goku's Japanese line in Episode 100 implies that he wasn't going all-out while using Super Saiyan Blue, but Freeza virtually implies the same thing in Chapter 37. Kefla was said to rival Goku's spirit bomb with just her initial Super Saiyan form, which is just about as "monstrously strong" as I can imagine her being in the manga if a fusion happens. Even then, she becomes easily twice as powerful after transitioning to Super Saiyan 2.

We should probably wait until the next chapter before debating specifics. Kale supposedly isn't finished powering up yet.

[DestructoDisc]

How strong were Piccolo and 18 in Super? Sometimes they looked very strong, other times they looked very weak. I was, and still am very confused at how strong they were supposed to be.

I'm talking about the anime version.

[PFM18]

There's not a whole lot of evidence one way or the other as to whether Super Saiyan Kale (or a hypothetical Kefla, for that matter) is any different than her anime counterpart. Goku's Japanese line in Episode 100 implies that he wasn't going all-out while using Super Saiyan Blue, but Freeza virtually implies the same thing in Chapter 37. Kefla was said to rival Goku's spirit bomb with just her initial Super Saiyan form, which is just about as "monstrously strong" as I can imagine her being in the manga if a fusion happens. Even then, she becomes easily twice as powerful after transitioning to Super Saiyan 2.

We should probably wait until the next chapter before debating specifics. Kale supposedly isn't finished powering up yet.

Kale is clearly far beyond her anime counterpart in the manga. Not only is CSSB supposed to be the manga equivalent of SSBKK, making her that much stronger to be able to compete with CSSB in the manga, but there's tons of evidence that Goku was suppressed when he fought Kale in SSB in the anime:

1. He says he will power up "a bit" when he goes from SSJ2->SSB
2. He gets up after the fight with no battle damage whatsoever.
3. Jiren one shots her and Goku isn't intimidated by this at all and challenges Jiren right after.(Implying he also could have one shot her.)
4. Kale gets stronger with a controlled version of the form and still loses to a tired SSG Goku.

It is extremely clear that Kale in the anime is not on SSB level and is far weaker than her manga counterpart.

In the anime, SSBKK Goku ~ SSJ Kefla and in the manga CSSB is the equivalent of SSBKK and in the manga CSSB Goku is ~ Kale. Therefore,

SSJ Kefla(anime)~SSJ Kale(manga)

So for that reason I don't think Kefla will appear in the manga because Kale serves as the same level of challenge to Goku as Kefla did in the anime.

[SSJgogeto]

How strong were Piccolo and 18 in Super? Sometimes they looked very strong, other times they looked very weak. I was, and still am very confused at how strong they were supposed to be.

I'm talking about the anime version.

We don't know about 18, but Piccolo is probably stronger than SS2 Gohan.

[dragon boss z]

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

No what? Freeza literally told Kale’s hits were stronger than SS Caulifla’s, to Caulifla’s surprise. So, Kale, after powering up with Potara, is obviously far stronger than SS Caulifla.

My bad, I read that as you saying base Kale was above SSG not Kefla.

- Freeza confirmed Base Kale is stronger than SS Caulifla, this may give precedence to Base Kefla being stronger than SSG.

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

Of course SSG is stronger than ssj Caulifla, but Kefla is a fusion

Ya, I read that as Kale, my bad.

- Freeza confirmed Base Kale is stronger than SS Caulifla, this may give precedence to Base Kefla being stronger than SSG.

SSG>>>ssj Caulifla, so no.

I mean none of this matters since Kefla won't be in the manga

I wouldn't say that just yet.

[Miracles]

False. This has already been thoroughly discussed though

No discussion happened. More like a classroom session where one has to teach people how to read and show them the episode again about specific scenes.

-Kale walked through Blue kame without a scratch
-Blue Goku couldn't break out of her grip
-Gohan and Piccolo were worried and was goign to help
-Red Goku only was able to fight a stronger Kale later cause Goku himself was way stronger from limit breaking

-Now th manga has Kale Blue tier as well by pwning Golden Freeza
-Freeza confirms even more that he has to get "serious" to fight Kale which PROVES she is blue tier
-Blue Goku got pwned just like he did in the anime
-After all that Kale STILL isn't using full power

Now anyone who states otherwise is ignoring the story just to try and protect their fav character or to diminish kale cause they don't like her.

[Marlowe89]

Not only is CSSB supposed to be the manga equivalent of SSBKK

Not really. We've been over this several times -- the vast majority of evidence blatantly points to the completed Blue being the manga's equivalent of the anime's current Blue, not Kaioken Blue. We've all elaborated on this topic of discussion on multiple occasions already in this thread.

If you need a general overview, see pages 1215 and 1216.

but there's tons of evidence that Goku was suppressed when he fought Kale in SSB in the anime

I already addressed this in the previous post. There's a small amount of evidence for the same situation in both mediums (Goku isn't fighting all-out, Freeza isn't fighting all-out) which hardly suggests that Super Saiyan Kale is as strong as Kefla in the anime. I think it's clear that you're hastily jumping to conclusions based on an improper understanding of the material. Wait until the next chapter.

[PFM18]

I already addressed this in the previous post. There's a small amount of evidence for the same situation in both mediums (Goku isn't fighting all-out, Freeza isn't fighting all-out) which hardly suggests that Super Saiyan Kale is as strong as Kefla in the anime. I think it's clear that you're hastily jumping to conclusions based on an improper understanding of the material. Wait until the next chapter.

You only mentioned the one piece of dialogue and that is how you came to the conclusion there is "some" evidence. This is misguided, since there is plenty of evidence. You just kind of conveniently ignored the rest of the clues that he was suppressed.

Not really. We've been over this several times -- the vast majority of evidence blatantly points to the completed Blue being the manga's equivalent of the anime's current Blue, not Kaioken Blue. We've all elaborated on this topic of discussion on multiple occasions already in this thread.

Yes, in most cases Blue and CSSB are treated the same between the anime and the manga but that just means that the characters that are relative to CSSB are scaled up from their anime counterparts. SSB was useless against Zamasu but CSSB gave him a fight. It is clear that the boost is similar to that of Kaioken Blue.

-Kale walked through Blue kame without a scratch
-Blue Goku couldn't break out of her grip
-Gohan and Piccolo were worried and was goign to help

This just reiterates the fact that Kale won the fight. She won because Goku was suppressed, Gohan and Piccolo obviously didn't know if Goku was suppressed they cannot sense God Ki and therefore they can only tell from what they see.

-Red Goku only was able to fight a stronger Kale later cause Goku himself was way stronger from limit breaking

pure speculation. You don't actually know that for certain if he got stronger during this time. It is certainly possible, but it is not in any way definitive and it is hardly evidence that Kale was stronger than him.

The "limit breaking" stuff was strictly referring to the fact that Goku Broke his previous limits in each iteration of Ultra Instinct. It explains why it gave him a power boost instead of just giving him the ability to move without thinking. Otherwise, if this "limit break" stuff referred to him getting stronger in all forms it would mean that Goku broke his limits twice and so then he would be way stronger than Vegeta in equivalent forms. This clearly was not the case. Either Goku was far stronger than Vegeta or Vegeta started out much stronger and Goku caught up to him with his "limit breaks", neither of those assertions are actually grounded in reality. Goku and Vegeta very well may have gotten stronger but, the important thing is if one got stronger then both got stronger since they remained equals and Goku having two "limit breaking" moments where Vegeta didn't have any just wouldn't make any sense.

In both mediums a Universe 6 Saiyan gives Goku's full-power a challenging fight. In the anime it is Kefla and in the manga it is Kale. It is really that simple.

[Marlowe89]

You only mentioned the one piece of dialogue and that is how you came to the conclusion there is "some" evidence. This is misguided, since there is plenty of evidence.

There really isn't. Your second point is a baseless assumption because there's no way of quantifying something like "battle damage" in the story, no matter how big or small it might be. Your third point jumps to a conclusion that doesn't even logically follow from your premise, since Goku was never deterred from fighting Jiren even after recognizing the insane gap between them -- he wanted to fight him simply because Jiren was the strongest competitor there.

Honestly not sure why you'd attempt to squabble over exactly how much evidence there is to support the notion that Goku was holding back. That's just aggressively wasting my time. Doesn't even change my point.

Yes, in most cases Blue and CSSB are treated the same between the anime and the manga but that just means that the characters that are relative to CSSB are scaled up from their anime counterparts. SSB was useless against Zamasu but CSSB gave him a fight. It is clear that the boost is similar to that of Kaioken Blue.

It doesn't mean that at all. If they're treated the same, they're obviously equivalent by its own definition. This (once again) comes down to basic linguistic meaning that you apparently can't grasp. The bolded part of your post is literally addressed by multiple users within the two thread pages I mentioned previously, including myself.

[Miracles]

This just reiterates the fact that Kale won the fight. She won because Goku was suppressed, Gohan and Piccolo obviously didn't know if Goku was suppressed they cannot sense God Ki and therefore they can only tell from what they see.

Despite the fact that it was never stated that Goku was holding back, your headcannon still defeats you. Cause Kale, not being phased at all by a Blue Goku holding back MEANS Goku has to take her serious in Blue which means Kale is Blue level.

pure speculation. You don't actually know that for certain if he got stronger during this time. It is certainly possible, but it is not in any way definitive and it is hardly evidence that Kale was stronger than him.

The "limit breaking" stuff was strictly referring to the fact that Goku Broke his previous limits in each iteration of Ultra Instinct. It explains why it gave him a power boost instead of just giving him the ability to move without thinking. Otherwise, if this "limit break" stuff referred to him getting stronger in all forms it would mean that Goku broke his limits twice and so then he would be way stronger than Vegeta in equivalent forms. This clearly was not the case. Either Goku was far stronger than Vegeta or Vegeta started out much stronger and Goku caught up to him with his "limit breaks", neither of those assertions are actually grounded in reality. Goku and Vegeta very well may have gotten stronger but, the important thing is if one got stronger then both got stronger since they remained equals and Goku having two "limit breaking" moments where Vegeta didn't have any just wouldn't make any sense.

In both mediums a Universe 6 Saiyan gives Goku's full-power a challenging fight. In the anime it is Kefla and in the manga it is Kale. It is really that simple.

You continue to jump the gun and assume Kefla won't be in the manga then you claim Goku's limit breaker was only for UI and not his overall power...What's the narrator saying here...?

https://imgur.com/rIxyVAH

[supercat]

I agree that CSSB Goku is likely in some shape or form a parallel to SSB Goku Kaioken. Anyone who could tangle with CSSB Goku Kaioken is likely well within a tier that could easily solo regular SSB-tier fighters.