Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

There really isn't. Your second point is a baseless assumption because there's no way of quantifying something like "battle damage" in the story, no matter how big or small it might be. Your third point jumps to a conclusion that doesn't even logically follow from your premise, since Goku was never deterred from fighting Jiren even after recognizing the insane gap between them -- he wanted to fight him simply because Jiren was the strongest competitor there.

There really is. having no battle damage vs having battle damage is very clear and it matters as far as establishing the struggle the characters are having in the story. Goku was having no such struggle in this fight. Goku wasn't surprised nor intimidated and he was still confident based on the power that Jiren had just displayed that resulted in Kale being one shot. You didn't even acknowledge the 4th point.

Honestly not sure why you'd attempt to squabble over exactly how much evidence there is to support the notion that Goku was holding back. That's just aggressively wasting my time. Doesn't even change my point.

I "squabbled" over how much evidence since if you don't acknowledge this evidence then you ultimately are misinterpreting the story and coming to irrational conclusions that contradict events within the story. Nothing aggressive about it.

It doesn't mean that at all. If they're treated the same, they're obviously equivalent by its own definition. This (once again) comes down to basic linguistic meaning that you apparently can't grasp. The bolded part of your post is literally addressed by multiple users within the two thread pages I mentioned previously, including myself.

See the fact that you are accusing me of not knowing what the word "same" means shows how weak your argument is.

Despite the fact that it was never stated that Goku was holding back, your headcannon still defeats you. Cause Kale, not being phased at all by a Blue Goku holding back MEANS Goku has to take her serious in Blue which means Kale is Blue level.

Goku states implicitly that he is holding back. Along with the other clues I mentioned prior, he mentions using "a little bit" more power when he goes from SSJ2 to SSB which obviously is a pretty gigantic boost to go from SSJ2 to full-power SSB.

You continue to jump the gun and assume Kefla won't be in the manga then you claim Goku's limit breaker was only for UI and not his overall power...What's the narrator saying here...?

Vegeta was using Blue Evolution and Goku was using Kaioken. Both are in a limit breaking state. This corroborates with the Zen Exhibition Match when Goku refers to Kaioken as breaking his limits when he is fighting Toppo.

I admit I am jumping the gun with the Kefla thing but that isn't particularly relevant to what you and I were discussing.

I agree that CSSB Goku is likely in some shape or form a parallel to SSB Goku Kaioken. Anyone who could tangle with CSSB Goku Kaioken is likely well within a tier that could easily solo regular SSB-tier fighters.

I think CSSB was clearly used as a substitute for SSB Kaioken and that way they could give it to both Vegeta and Goku instead of just Goku.

[supercat]

Yeah and if for whatever reason Goku uses Kaioken on top of CSSB, it would still likely mean that CSSB is far stronger than regular SSB. So even with Kaioken it would still likely be akin to something like this:

SSB Goku Kaioken > CSSB Goku / CSSB Vegeta >>> SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Android 17 / Golden Frieza >>> Red Goku > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Goku / SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Goku / SSJ Vegeta > Base Goku / Base Vegeta >> SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

I also agree that battle damage is a pretty good indicator of where a particular character stands in comparison to another; especially when there isn't much else to go by.

[Miracles]

Goku states implicitly that he is holding back. Along with the other clues I mentioned prior, he mentions using "a little bit" more power when he goes from SSJ2 to SSB which obviously is a pretty gigantic boost to go from SSJ2 to full-power SSB.

Nope; "I'm gonna let out more power" is what Goku stated when he went Blue and still got pwned. Got anymore fanfic?

Vegeta was using Blue Evolution and Goku was using Kaioken. Both are in a limit breaking state. This corroborates with the Zen Exhibition Match when Goku refers to Kaioken as breaking his limits when he is fighting Toppo.

I admit I am jumping the gun with the Kefla thing but that isn't particularly relevant to what you and I were discussing.

KK Blue Goku is able to fight equally alongside "Beyond Blue" Vegeta against a stronger Jiren and you try to miraculously classify that power up as Goku normally exceeding Blue's limits via KK? Especially when KK Blue Goku already got swept aside by a weaker Jiren in the special? You got to do better than that for headcannon to pass.

[Marlowe89]

I "squabbled" over how much evidence since if you don't acknowledge this evidence then you ultimately are misinterpreting the story and coming to irrational conclusions that contradict events within the story.

A few scratches by itself doesn't specifically quantify how strong a character is supposed to be, and neither character had these indicators anyway. Just stating that Goku was confident against Jiren doesn't specify how he thought he would have fared against Kale because, again, neither scenario would have deterred his excitement at the prospect of fighting Jiren. This is common sense. Those points aren't direct evidence, they're an arguable interpretation of things that you're trying to extrapolate as evidence. This isn't an honest approach.

There's no need to pretend that you're doing anything but squabbling here. Your bizarre behavior isn't just underlined by the fact that you're failing to actually understand the counterpoints you just quoted, but also that you're suddenly accusing me of coming to "irrational conclusions" when I didn't even disagree that Goku was likely holding back. It's a pointless matter to argue about because you're attempting to debate over something that I'm not even disputing.

See the fact that you are accusing me of not knowing what the word "same" means shows how weak your argument is.

No, I think you just don't understand (or more accurately, don't want to understand) what terms like "equivalent" would entail. It's hardly complicated. Your other points also continuously fail to account for the fact that several people have already addressed them previously, even when you're directly presented with those key takeaways.

Frankly, I don't find your "contributions" to be worth addressing anymore. This seems to be a bit of a recurring issue where you come into a topic of discussion totally uninformed about the subject and proceed to take this almost stubbornly ignorant stance whenever your claims are met with any kind of rebuttal. It just doesn't seem like an intellectually honest approach to me. It's not worth my time.

[Bullza]

Nope; "I'm gonna let out more power" is what Goku stated when he went Blue and still got pwned. Got anymore fanfic?

I'm pretty sure he did specify he was going to let out a little more power before blasting Kale point blank. For all we know he could have been letting out less than Super Saiyan 3 level power at that moment.

Even according to those stickers with the Power Levels on them. Kale was lower than Super Saiyan God Goku but was higher than Goku Black.

[supercat]

While I'm not quite convinced that Kale is SSB-tier, I will acknowledge that there are a few things supporting it. Goku turning SSB just to exert as much power as he could as an SSJ3 really makes little sense. Narratively, what would have been the point of that? Before anyone brings up the whole Krillin thing, Goku actually had a reason to turn SSB during that battle; and that reason was to motivate his best friend. Why would he feel the need to "motivate" Kale by turning SSB, when one, Kale is of no significance to him and two, he likely knows that Kale is too enraged and indifferent to even understand what SSB is. Kale being on par with Red Goku seems plausible as of now.

[PFM18]

Goku states implicitly that he is holding back. Along with the other clues I mentioned prior, he mentions using "a little bit" more power when he goes from SSJ2 to SSB which obviously is a pretty gigantic boost to go from SSJ2 to full-power SSB.

Nope; "I'm gonna let out more power" is what Goku stated when he went Blue and still got pwned. Got anymore fanfic?

Vegeta was using Blue Evolution and Goku was using Kaioken. Both are in a limit breaking state. This corroborates with the Zen Exhibition Match when Goku refers to Kaioken as breaking his limits when he is fighting Toppo.

I admit I am jumping the gun with the Kefla thing but that isn't particularly relevant to what you and I were discussing.

KK Blue Goku is able to fight equally alongside "Beyond Blue" Vegeta against a stronger Jiren and you try to miraculously classify that power up as Goku normally exceeding Blue's limits via KK? Especially when KK Blue Goku already got swept aside by a weaker Jiren in the special? You got to do better than that for headcannon to pass.

No he said "I'm going to let out a bit more power." So no fanfic involved sorry. Check with anyone who knows japanese or has seen good translations.

Yeah he fought alonside Vegeta. He didn't do particularly well here even though Jiren was outnumbered. Goku literally refers to Kaioken as his limit breaking state so this is not speculation in any way. Like I said, it is possible that Goku and Vegeta got stronger but it is just pure speculation and the "limit breaking" stuff refers to the power boost by Ultra Instinct usually.

[Miracles]

I'm pretty sure he did specify he was going to let out a little more power before blasting Kale point blank. For all we know he could have been letting out less than Super Saiyan 3 level power at that moment.

Even according to those stickers with the Power Levels on them. Kale was lower than Super Saiyan God Goku but was higher than Goku Black.

Stickers are non canon. The subs clearly state Goku "let out more power," meaning he was letting out Blue level power. You don't use SSJ3 level power when SSJ2 just got laughed at.

No he said "I'm going to let out a bit more power." So no fanfic involved sorry. Check with anyone who knows japanese or has seen good translations.

Yeah he fought alonside Vegeta. He didn't do particularly well here even though Jiren was outnumbered. Goku literally refers to Kaioken as his limit breaking state so this is not speculation in any way. Like I said, it is possible that Goku and Vegeta got stronger but it is just pure speculation and the "limit breaking" stuff refers to the power boost by Ultra Instinct usually.

Goku telling Toppo that he can go beyond Blue's power [which IS his limit] by using KK compared to Goku's overall power increasing by being able to fight a stronger Jiren and keep up with a new form Vegeta is entirely different. Even Caulifla stated Goku's SSJ2 powe rwas different from before after his battle with Jiren. You are gonna have to do better than that misdirection.

https://imgur.com/TMM3hk3

Kale is Blue tier. No statement of holding back and it doesn't matter if Goku was, he still has to get serious in Blue to fight Kale, which shows she is Blue level.

[PFM18]

Goku telling Toppo that he can go beyond Blue's power [which IS his limit] by using KK compared to Goku's overall power increasing by being able to fight a stronger Jiren and keep up with a new form Vegeta is entirely different. Even Caulifla stated Goku's SSJ2 powe rwas different from before after his battle with Jiren. You are gonna have to do better than that misdirection.

https://imgur.com/TMM3hk3

Kale is Blue tier no statement of holding back and it doesn't matter if Goku was he still has to get serious in Blue to fight Kale which shows she is Blue level.

Yes they are different. Not sure what you are trying to say by this first sentence. Goku's stated his limit breaking state was SSBKK and the narrator later makes a similar comment. This doesn't in any way indicate Goku got stronger. But like I said, Goku very well could have gotten stronger but if it was because of these "limit breaking" states then Vegeta would have been left out to dry and that just didn't happen.

I don't believe those translations are correct. I have heard several translations use the phrase "a bit" or "a little" to describe the power that he was letting out. If Goku did get stronger it certainly wasn't enough to make an exhausted iteration of his SSG form be stronger than his previous full-power SSB, especially when you consider Kale was stronger in their second fight and she still was losing.

[Bullza]

Stickers are non canon. The subs clearly state Goku "let out more power," meaning he was letting out Blue level power. You don't use SSJ3 level power when SSJ2 just got laughed at.

Sticker or not, it's an official product that was actually consistent with what was portrayed in the show.

Whatever subs you're looking at are inaccurate because you can very clearly hear him say "chotto" which means "a little".

Even after Kale powered up again after that point she was man handled by Super Saiyan God Goku.

[supercat]

The stickers didn't appear to support each and every character's feats as there appeared to be a few inconsistencies. For instance, Android 17 has a number of feats strongly suggesting that he is comparable to current SSB Goku; a level that far eclipses Red Goku. Additionally, I'm not sure how the numbers listed for each character are actual power levels since characters from previous sagas (Janemba, Buuhan, Kid Buu, and more) had higher numbers than some of the top contenders from the ToP. I know some people use them for ranking purposes only, but even then, the points mentioned above makes this difficult. Plus, when people are having to pick and choose what applies and what doesn't, that's seemingly an indication that there are far too many inconsistencies and things are based off of guesswork. It's either all applicable or not applicable at all.

[Miracles]

Sticker or not, it's an official product that was actually consistent with what was portrayed in the show.

Whatever subs you're looking at are inaccurate because you can very clearly hear him say "chotto" which means "a little".

Even after Kale powered up again after that point she was man handled by Super Saiyan God Goku.

Kale fought evenly with a stronger limit breaker god Goku. It was Caulifla who was manhandled by him. This was after Kale just laughed at Blue Goku who couldn't break Kale's grip at all. If Goku was holding back he would of gotten out of the situation any time but couldn't. The stickers don't match up with canon.

Yes they are different. Not sure what you are trying to say by this first sentence. Goku's stated his limit breaking state was SSBKK and the narrator later makes a similar comment. This doesn't in any way indicate Goku got stronger. But like I said, Goku very well could have gotten stronger but if it was because of these "limit breaking" states then Vegeta would have been left out to dry and that just didn't happen.

I don't believe those translations are correct. I have heard several translations use the phrase "a bit" or "a little" to describe the power that he was letting out. If Goku did get stronger it certainly wasn't enough to make an exhausted iteration of his SSG form be stronger than his previous full-power SSB, especially when you consider Kale was stronger in their second fight and she still was losing.

The translations are correct cause Blue Goku at no point in time could break out of Kale's grip...He was struggling.
The trans don't matter anyway, Goku still needs to get serious IN Blue to face Kale that was proven and that proves she is Blue level.

Goku's statment of going beyond his limit and the narrator's limit breaker comment were different. Goku in no way could handle a weaker Jiren in the special yet all of a sudden he is going to keep up with a stronger Jiren using the same power? How do you get that confused with Goku just stating he can go beyond his blue form in power to Toppo? You are clearly trying to mix the two just to try and prove a point that is false.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'll try to weigh in on current matters.

With regards to SSB between the manga and anime, I'm of the opinion that CSSB in the manga and SSB in the anime are basically meant to be the same; they fulfill the same basic roles in the story, albeit the creators for the two mediums have slightly different takes on how this is executed. For example, SSB Goku put his full power into a Kamehameha in the anime, much like how Goku completed SSB in the anime and put all his power into a Hakai.

With regards to Kale, I'm of the opinion that her controlled Super Saiyan forms are means by which she can comfortably harness her SS Berserk power; Berserk is her "potentially" greatest level, as it seems to grow the longer and more pressured she gets during a fight. So, she starts out stronger than regular SS2's power, but this strength continues to grow the longer Kale spends in the Berserk state, thus allowing her to potentially surpass even the power of SSB if she's left to grow in power long enough.

In essence, SS Berserk is a fluctuating level that's uncontrollable and grows the longer Kale spends in the form and the stronger her opponents get in order to combat this growth.

[Marlowe89]

Whatever subs you're looking at are inaccurate because you can very clearly hear him say "chotto" which means "a little".

Apparently, this isn't necessarily the case. Depending on the context, the phrase "chotto" can actually mean the complete opposite of "a little", which might be why Crunchyroll's subtitles were more ambiguous.

Looking at this objectively, it's possible that Goku intended to use god-level strength against Kale in Episode 100. Just as in Chapter 37, it's not entirely clear based on that scene alone, but if the transformation works as Vados explained then it's totally possible for Kale to be Blue tier in an "out-of-control" scene and below God tier during an "in-control" scene later in the same tournament.

[Koitsukai]

My last two cents about anime Kale:

-she couldn't withstand a ki blast from Jiren, and later on Jiren powers up to fight Goku and SSBlue manages to exchange a few blows with him for a couple of seconds before being crushed. His first punch throws Jiren against a mountain or whatever you wanna call it. SSB Goku even receives at point blank that same attack(stronger actually, Jiren powered up greatly) and gets up.
- so only Goku has the ability to grow stronger by zenkai after his fight with Jiren? Kale suffered quite a lot from Jiren's attack, so if Goku got stronger, then Kale did so aswell.

[Bullza]

Kale fought evenly with a stronger limit breaker god Goku. It was Caulifla who was manhandled by him. This was after Kale just laughed at Blue Goku who couldn't break Kale's grip at all. If Goku was holding back he would of gotten out of the situation any time but couldn't. The stickers don't match up with canon.

Limit Breaker God Goku? When was this ever a thing? What would suggest a tired Super Saiyan God Goku had far surpassed a full powered Super Saiyan Blue over the sake of a few minutes time.

It also wasn't evenly matched at all, he flew straight through her blast completely unfazed. Shin even said he was in a different class from her.

Just as in Chapter 37, it's not entirely clear based on that scene alone, but if the transformation works as Vados explained then it's totally possible for Kale to be Blue tier in an "out-of-control" scene and below God tier during an "in-control" scene later in the same tournament.

The dialogue suggested the exact opposite. When she goes from her Broly form to a slimmer form Krillin says she isn't berserk and has that power completely under her control and Tien says her energy massively increased.

My last two cents about anime Kale:

-she couldn't withstand a ki blast from Jiren, and later on Jiren powers up to fight Goku and SSBlue manages to exchange a few blows with him for a couple of seconds before being crushed

Oh yeah so this is true because Jiren fired a small little blast at Kale which defeated her. Jiren fired a bigger blast at Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta though and he was able to get out of it.

And as I said earlier even after Kale came about, Hit was still said to be Universe 6's ace and he had only recently been beaten by Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta indicated that they were more or less equal in both versions. There's a large enough gap between forms that base Vegeta obviously isn't going to be stronger than Super Saiyan Cabba. They're basically on the same level, with Vegeta a notch or two above Cabba.

Looking at both the anime and manga, there's more than enough evidence to suggest the Saiyans (excluding Kale) are comparable in power while in the same form. I'd say it's something like Goku = Vegeta = Gohan > Caulifla > Cabba for their base states, but certainly nothing drastic.

Well if Cabba didn't grow stronger between tournaments then he's not really on par with them anymore. Goku and Vegeta grew a lot stronger in the FT arc.

[Marlowe89]

The dialogue suggested the exact opposite. When she goes from her Broly form to a slimmer form Krillin says she isn't berserk and has that power completely under her control and Tien says her energy massively increased.

For that episode, sure, but by then she's been in and out of her uncontrolled state since her initial outburst in the tournament. I was referring more to Episode 100 in particular, which doesn't exactly rule out what the action suggests through its dialogue alone.

Vados sort of implied that her berserk state doesn't adhere to a set amount of power and fluctuates pretty wildly, which could leave room for the idea that she could approach that level under specific circumstances. If she turns out to be that strong in the manga, I wouldn't say that the anime is necessarily without a precedent.

For the most part, I'm just maintaining that the jury's still out on this one. It's ambiguous enough that the consensus could easily sway towards any direction.

Well if Cabba didn't grow stronger between tournaments then he's not really on par with them anymore. Goku and Vegeta grew a lot stronger in the FT arc.

There's nothing in the manga that would imply their base forms grew massively stronger during that arc, which is mostly what this discussion was focused on. For the anime, I'm of the opinion their Blue forms alone were improved dramatically.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm pretty sure he did specify he was going to let out a little more power before blasting Kale point blank. For all we know he could have been letting out less than Super Saiyan 3 level power at that moment.

When SS4 Goku fought Baby he used this same “little more power” remark and it was definetely a big power-up from SS3. I think this is only Goku being euphemistic.

[PFM18]

Kale fought evenly with a stronger limit breaker god Goku. It was Caulifla who was manhandled by him. This was after Kale just laughed at Blue Goku who couldn't break Kale's grip at all. If Goku was holding back he would of gotten out of the situation any time but couldn't. The stickers don't match up with canon.

The translations are correct cause Blue Goku at no point in time could break out of Kale's grip...He was struggling.
The trans don't matter anyway, Goku still needs to get serious IN Blue to face Kale that was proven and that proves she is Blue level.

She didn't fight evenly. She was clearly performing better than Caulifla but she was still losing and if she was even she would have had an advantage since Caulifla was helping her. Again, as we saw with Tupper, just because you are stronger than someone doesn't mean you can break out of their grip. That is a fighting technique that has been shown to allow you to "punch above your weight class" so to speak. Had Kale actually been stronger than Goku, then when Jiren one shot her then Goku would have been surprised and intimidated by this. Instead, he doesn't bat an eye and challenges Jiren afterwards anyway. This is in addition to the correct translations describing Goku's power increase from SSJ2 -> SSB being "a little." He doesn't have to get serious in Blue, he just has to use something stronger than SSJ2, SSJ3 or SSG would also do the job as we see later in the tournament.

Goku's statment of going beyond his limit and the narrator's limit breaker comment were different. Goku in no way could handle a weaker Jiren in the special yet all of a sudden he is going to keep up with a stronger Jiren using the same power? How do you get that confused with Goku just stating he can go beyond his blue form in power to Toppo? You are clearly trying to mix the two just to try and prove a point that is false.

SSG->SSB is a 50x difference, based on the description and what we see in the fight with Kefla. There is absolutely no way in hell Goku got more than 50x stronger in this time. His SSG performed better than his SSB did prior because of the fact that he was suppressed in the first bout.

I don't know why you keep saying he was keeping up with Jiren. He had Vegeta's help and they were still ultimately at a disadvantage even if they were performing better than he was in 109. Again,there is no confusion. The "limit breaking state" that you keep referring to is clearly the narrator referring to the Kaioken. (As seen in the Zen Exhbition match with Toppo) I am not "trying" to mix the two in any way other than what is clearly stated. The phrase was used to describe the same thing in both cases.

Either way, in the anime SSBKK is Goku's full power. In the manga CSSB is Goku's full-power. In the anime, Kefla was relative to his full-power state of SSBKK and in the manga Kale was relative to his full-power state of CSSB. (In the anime Kale was only relative to Goku's SSG form, so she is dramatically weaker in that medium) Therefore:

SSJ Kale(manga)~SSJ Kefla(anime)