Vegeta Is Not A Super Saiyan

Dark Vegeta-Sama · Post by **Dark Vegeta-Sama** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:04 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Toriyama Boss wrote:I always wondered how strong a "Full-power" Super Saiya-jin is compared to Super Saiya-jin. The manga/anime does not state the Difference between Full-power Super Saiya-jin and a common Super Saiya-jin.
Because it's not really a different stage. It's just a state where you've gained complete control over SSj to the point where you can use it like it's your normal self. Plus, training AS an SSj apparently yields much MUCH greater results than normal training.

Exactly, but then, it stands to reason that anyone who ever achieves SSJ2 and beyond has already mastered full power SSJ. It just makes far too much sense that one can only achieve SSJ2, SSJ3, etc. after mastering the first SSJ mode completely.

Also, considering how much time each individual remains a Super Saiyan at different times during the Buu Saga, it's pretty obvious that it isn't wearing them down at that point, and neither is SSJ2. By the end of the Buu Saga, the only form that actually physically wears any of these characters down over time is SSJ3.

Therefore, even though it isn't ever outright stated, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and possibly even Goten and Trunks have all achieved full power SSJ mode by the Buu Saga, and by extention, so do Vegetto, Gotenks, and Gogeta.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:10 pm

I agree with Kaboom's theory, it seems plausible that you can't progress unless you've mastered the level before, so if he reached SSJ2 he in my eyes must've been able to reach the level before.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:23 am

Read the Manga, Vegeta states that he and Goku are both far stronger than Gohan. Even if Gohan had slacked off, he was still capable of Super Saiyan 2, as he showed Kibito at the 25th Tournament. If Vegeta is stronger than Gohan, then he must be a Super Saiyan 2. Goku's power as SS2 is revealed for an instant when he revs up to kill Yakkon. Vegeta recognizes it, realizes his own power as SS2 is not anywhere near Goku's, and allows Babidi to control him to boost him up to Goku's level of power in the form.

The notion that the Majin powerup caused SS2 I find both ridiculous and sad, considering the Manga basically spells it out otherwise. But, these old fansub mis-translated, internet perpetuated myths continue to this very day.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:37 pm

I completely agree with Akira. The thing that really stands out, is Vegeta saying: So, Kakarot has broken the Super Saiyan wall, too! That quote, along with him disregarding Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power at the tournament, is enough to tell you he has reached Super Saiyan 2.

The way Vegeta quickly went to Super Saiyan 2, should also make it clear that he didn't become a Super Saiyan 2 through the magic.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:31 pm

Well, that and the fact that he was only in Super Saiyan 1 form the entire time that Babidi possessed him. He did not even go Super Saiyan 2 until he got ready to fight Goku. By this I mean after he destroyed the stadium, after Goku got mad and told Babidi he would fight after they were transported somewhere away from people.

Tis true! I just re-read the manga chapters that have this part of the story in it. Goku says to Vegeta something to the affect of, "I am going to end this quickly, at full power." Then he goes Super Saiyan 2, spikier hair, more jagged rough aura, and lightning bolts, then Vegeta does the same thing, and Goku says, "This may not be as easy as I thought."

I can't believe I never really noticed this before now, but if you go back through, the whole bit in Babidi's ship, the standoff at the tournament, Vegeta and Goku both only have the "Wavy" Super Saiyan 1 Auras, and their hair shows it. Compare it to when they actually get ready to fight and you will see what I am talking about. I think this evidence more or less solidifies the point of contention, proving the Majin powerup added to Vegeta's overall power, but had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he was already capable of a low level Super Saiyan 2 prior to that.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:58 pm

When all else fails, check the manga for the auras.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:06 am

People often believe that Full Power Super Saiyan is an alternate transformation from the regular Super Saiyan.....it isn't, it's actually the same thing. However it is an altered mental and physical state. A super Saiyan who has mastered himself is not only physically unflawed, he is also now at peace with himself once again. I always believed that when a Super Saiyan who is at peace once again (FPSSj) becomes re-awakened by rage, then he ascends to Super Saiyan 2. Therefore I agree with what Kaboom said about FPSSj kindof being like a prerequisite for Super Saiyan 2.

I do believe that Vegeta reached FPSSj by the Buu saga.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:58 pm

That's good info on the form. But, we have no idea if Vegeta and Goku used rage to become Super Saiyan 2. For all we know, they probably achieved it solely through massive training.

Kikoha Hater · Post by **Kikoha Hater** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:56 pm

Was Vegeta Super Saiyan 2 lighting aura present when he fought Kid Buu in manga/anime?

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:26 pm

I'm with DemonKingPiccolo and SSj Kaboom on the Super Saiyan forms. SSj 2 should require a re-awakening. It's established that Goku and Vegeta achieved SSj 2 during the 7 year gap, so you'd assume that they experienced some kind of shock.

Calls for some great fan-fic. Goku could've seen anything and more in the vast afterlife and its limitless possibilities...
Vegeta trained and trained and couldn't surpass the Super Saiyan. Oh wait... he did say he'd stop fighting, huh? Perhaps it had something to do with Vegeta finding his spirit again? Ah, well...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:40 am

Kikoha Hater wrote:Was Vegeta Super Saiyan 2 lighting aura present when he fought Kid Buu in manga/anime?

It certainly was in the manga, indicating he was most definitely an SSj2. The anime is far less consistent with that, though. So when all else fails, reference the manga in this regard.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:46 am

Exactly. Since it was in the manga, we can pretty much assume he was SS2 in the anime fight too, can't we?

Kikoha Hater · Post by **Kikoha Hater** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:53 am

Ok, thats good to know, thank you SSj Kaboom. Damn anime.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:16 am

The one problem with my whole list of proof and hinted at assumptions (if anyone can remember it back when I posted it in some thread) is that, when Goku became a SSj2 preparing to fight Vegeta, Vegeta stated something along the lines of "Ah, pretty good. You're stronger than Gohan." That, although not completely convincing evidence, is hinting at the idea that Goku didn't show his full SSj2 power against Yakon, considering it was just a brief burst of SSj2 ki. So, for Vegeta to think that Goku was stronger than himself at that time...would mean Vegeta was one heck of a weak SSj2, or Goku was just really strong, and Gohan weaker than him. It just seems flawed.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:44 pm

Tyro wrote:The one problem with my whole list of proof and hinted at assumptions (if anyone can remember it back when I posted it in some thread) is that, when Goku became a SSj2 preparing to fight Vegeta, Vegeta stated something along the lines of "Ah, pretty good. You're stronger than Gohan." That, although not completely convincing evidence, is hinting at the idea that Goku didn't show his full SSj2 power against Yakon, considering it was just a brief burst of SSj2 ki. So, for Vegeta to think that Goku was stronger than himself at that time...would mean Vegeta was one heck of a weak SSj2, or Goku was just really strong, and Gohan weaker than him. It just seems flawed.

I think it was just that Goku was really, really strong, and had made enormous gains in his training in heaven, and Vegeta who had basically devoted his life to training to defeat Goku at this point had a single chance to do so.

I also believe that he had gotten SS2 and had made a fair amount of progress at it, but wasn't quite as powerful as Gohan had been during the Cell Games. When he saw Goku had gone SS2 as well, Vegeta was surprised, and he became desperate enough to get additional power in an underhanded way.

It was a shame, because it really seemed to contradict Vegeta as being a proud, 'I don't need help from anybody' warrior that Vegeta was, and yet it was necessary for him to sacrifice himself later and repent in blowing himself up.