So I rewatched Dragon Ball GT

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Ok so I am genuinely interested what the character development/characterizations that you liked in GT. We discussed last time Mr. Satan's development which was reasonable enough, and you discussed Vegeta's "development" in GT and I think we kind of agreed to disagree there. You brought up Satan's development that I didn't realize and it seemed fairly interesting and I'll have to pay more attention to it the next time I watch it. But aside from that, what is there exactly? Like as far as characterization and character development?

I am asking because I genuinely want to know because I can't think of any legitimate examples of the aforementioned elements of the story. I am not trying to rip on GT or spout how great Super is, since we kind of stand on opposite sides of the fence and trying to convince one another of our stances is kind of an exercise in futility. I'm genuinely curious I guess is all I am trying to say.

Granted, character development isnt as clear in GT as it is in Super and it does require some digging but it is there. Particularly Pan's personality and relationship with Goku (which was the focus) as she went from being conceited in Goku's absence, disrespecting Goku in his kid Body, to supporting him, to respecting him at SS4. Her moment when she tried to stand up for her family against Baby, her relationship with Giru, her relationship with her parents as well. Its not much but it was big enough for her to develop as opposed to giving her an unnecessary transformation, as to what Super did with Vegeta, & Trunks. Realizations don't create new forms, outside of SS4.

Goku was finally in a consistent role as a guardian and father figure to Pan, especially in SS4, which I would argue is far far more satisfying over his retcon in Super where he cares about nothing but amusement, luffy-grinnig almost 24/7, gets cheesy friendship-flashbacks for power, and inconsistency with his seriousness in fights.

Mr. Satan was humbled a lot from being around Pan, Mr. Buu gave up himself to make Uub stronger (over what he is in Super), Piccolo decided the best choice for Earth was for him to die, 18 especially convincing Super 17 to not listen to Myu getting him to kill him too. GT had character development. The interesting thing is that the character development in both GT and Super parallel like that between which characters are used more between them.

[Xeogran]

Personally, I think that making Goku a kid was a fun choice. It gave Pan someone "her-age" to spend time with, because Bulla clearly wasn't interested in fighting or adventures as she was. I just found the whole concept cute of Pan trying to be mature despite being a kid, and Goku being a kid despite being her grandpa

[Bullza]

Zamasu is considered the best villain in DBS but considering he is the only villain then that isn't saying much either

Well he wasn't the only one but aside from that a lot of people ranked Zamasu as one of the best villains in the whole franchise. At the time people were saying he was either the best or the best after Frieza.

None of the GT villains were even held in such high regard.

He was still quite popular considering how hyped people were then they heard about 17 appearing in Super. And even before that you could see people wondering if he appear in Super at some point.

He was slightly popular. The character wasn't even in DBZ all that long. He was introduced and absorbed in a 20 episode span where he had one major fight with Piccolo and most his other appearances was driving a van.

Super made him very popular, he's probably in the Top 10 most popular at this point. Infact he's probably even more popular than is even warranted.

Also, 17 was overall only a minor antagonist in DBZ, while Frieza is the most overused villain in franchise, that got entire arc for him in DBZ and got the longest fight in anime. Not to mention Cooler and Frost being Frieza clones, especially Frost.

Frieza is over used because he's popular because he's the best villain this franchise will likely ever get. Android 17 was a random choice to go with because he wasn't even antagonistic anymore.

Doctor Gero would have probably have been a better choice actually. Super 17 was barely around, about 3 episodes worth and he was nothing at all like Android 17 which just made it all pretty pointless anyway.

The Golden Frieza Saga wasn't great he did show up and died again straight away....can't really blame Super for that though because it was just redoing the movie where they wouldn't have planned so far ahead. Still that story later led to him being brought again and this time being done arguably better than ever.

Because of things like the DBZ filler, Fusion Reborn and GT he had become a bit of a joke. The Universe Survival Saga completely redeemed him.

[sintzu]

Just finished episodes 25-29. Goten got an episode but both of his fights had no hand to hand combat. Gohan and Piccolo were hyped up but both fell on their faces, especially Piccolo. Baby's back story is a good one as it makes sense someone from the Saiyan's past would eventually catch up to them but him being able to take over Vegeta completely goes against everything we were told when Babidi tried and failed at it. Goku saying he's an earthling was something I hoped was a dub mistake but it wasn't. Baby taking over everyone really puts Goku in a tough situation as it's the first time he had to fight alone. I really like how Buu managed to stop baby from taking over him and Satan. Baby's forms has white hair so I guess Vegeta eventually gets it in Super (I know it's coincidence but it's a fun one). Both of Baby's forms look great but it's a shame, like the other fights up to this point, that his and Goku's had no choreography. I don't understand how you can follow up the greatest action anime at the time with an action-less sequel.

[Bullza]

Just finished episodes 25-29. Goten got an episode but both of his fights had no hand to hand combat. Gohan and Piccolo were hyped up but both fell on their faces, especially Piccolo. Baby's back story is a good one as it makes sense someone from the Saiyan's past would eventually catch up to them but him being able to take over Vegeta completely goes against everything we were told when Babidi tried and failed at it. Goku saying he's an earthling was something I hoped was a dub mistake but it wasn't. Baby taking over everyone really puts Goku in a tough situation as it's the first time he had to fight alone. I really like how Buu managed to stop baby from taking over him and Satan. Baby's forms has white hair so I guess Vegeta eventually gets it in Super (I know it's coincidence but it's a fun one). Both of Baby's forms look great but it's a shame, like the other fights up to this point, that his and Goku's had no choreography. I don't understand how you can follow up the greatest action anime at the time with an action-less sequel.

As chance would have it Episode 25 to 29 was to me my favourite part of the show because it involved other characters in the action for once.

I don't think the fights in GT are too bad, it's not the worst part about GT but the fights weren't particularly great either. Aside from the choreography not being that good, there weren't too many memorable moments involved. It was a mistake making Baby an Ape because at that point there wasn't going to be any real hand to hand combat involved, all they really did was throw blasts at each other. Usually the defeat of a major villain is amongst the most memorable moments but in Baby's case it wasn't very good at all.

Goku's fight with Super 17 was possibly the best in the show but it wasn't really that satisfying to see because it was built up way too quickly. From the moment Goku see's him they start fighting immediately until he's defeated which also wasn't that good and was mainly memorable because it was the only thing Android 18 did in GT.

The Syn Shenron fight wasn't too bad but it's the kind of fight you'd see in fan fiction. A new enemy shows up and puts a stomping on Goku, Goku powers up and puts a stomping on Syn Shenron, Syn Shenron powers up and puts a stomping on Goku, Goku fuses with Vegeta and puts a stomping on Omega Shenron, Gogeta defuses and Omega Shenron puts a stomping on the two of them, Goku somewhere comes back out of nowhere and kills Omega Shenron.

That's all that happened, they just took turns having one sided fights. Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta never had an impressive moment. The first thing he did was fuse with Goku and then after that he was repeatedly beaten around.

The Universal Spirit Bomb was pretty cool though, I didn't mind that, that was actually a good idea that it pulled off reasonably well.

[sintzu]

As chance would have it Episode 25 to 29 was to me my favourite part of the show because it involved other characters in the action for once.

I went into GT really wanting to like it as I'm watching it in Japanese, cut out the episodes I hated (6-15) and even kept my expectations low but even after doing all that it's still a disappointment. I just finished re-watching the original 2 anime (DB&Kai) a few weeks ago and the drop in quality is very noticeable. This is exactly why I hope everyone currently involved with DB wait awhile before moving on once Toriyama's done cause I don't want this to happen again. GT had a completely new staff work on it as the one that worked on the 2 original anime moved on to new projects so had Toei waited a few years and gotten them all back together I think GT would've been very different and better.

In terms of Vegeta, he's by far the biggest disappointment for me, despite being handled better than the others. I couldn't be happier for what Super's done with him as he truly lived up to his potential after reforming during the Kid Buu fight. He's keeping up with Goku, got an original form, got to take down a destroyer candidate and for icing on the cake, got to beat down Freeza. Thank you Super for showing everyone what my #1 anime character is truly capable of.

[sunsetshimmer]

Usually the defeat of a major villain is amongst the most memorable moments but in Baby's case it wasn't very good at all.

Honestly, for me it was better and more memorable than defeat of Frieza who is the most popular villain and i talk about both his defeat on Namek and on Earth.
While death of Cell and Buu were memorable, i never found Frieza's defeat to be anything special in DBZ or Super.

Super 17's death was possibly the best in GT. It looked badass and was a nice reference to King Piccolo.

[sintzu]

Super 17's death was possibly the best in GT. It looked badass and was a nice reference to King Piccolo.

Too bad the fight leading up to it was him just throwing Ssj4 Goku into walls...

[sunsetshimmer]

Super 17's death was possibly the best in GT. It looked badass and was a nice reference to King Piccolo.

Too bad the fight leading up to it was him just throwing Ssj4 Goku into walls...

Yeah, although it was one of the most spectacular fights in DB back then. You hardly ever see environment changing so many times (+ it looked great), blasting someone literally from space, or punching through half of planet. If this fight had more of actual fighting it could easily be in top DB fights ever made. What killed it was lack of melee combat and Goku being trashed all the time. But visuals and destruction were awesome.

[PFM18]

As chance would have it Episode 25 to 29 was to me my favourite part of the show because it involved other characters in the action for once.

I went into GT really wanting to like it as I'm watching it in Japanese, cut out the episodes I hated (6-15) and even kept my expectations low but even after doing all that it's still a disappointment. I just finished re-watching the original 2 anime (DB&Kai) a few weeks ago and the drop in quality is very noticeable. This is exactly why I hope everyone currently involved with DB wait awhile before moving on once Toriyama's done cause I don't want this to happen again. GT had a completely new staff work on it as the one that worked on the 2 original anime moved on to new projects so had Toei waited a few years and gotten them all back together I think GT would've been very different and better.

In terms of Vegeta, he's by far the biggest disappointment for me, despite being handled better than the others. I couldn't be happier for what Super's done with him as he truly lived up to his potential after reforming during the Kid Buu fight. He's keeping up with Goku, got an original form, got to take down a destroyer candidate and for icing on the cake, got to beat down Freeza. Thank you Super for showing everyone what my #1 anime character is truly capable of.

I totally agree on both fronts.

GT Vegeta is a pathetic loser and Super Vegeta has lived up to the potential of the character.

[Timetraveller]

As chance would have it Episode 25 to 29 was to me my favourite part of the show because it involved other characters in the action for once.

I went into GT really wanting to like it as I'm watching it in Japanese, cut out the episodes I hated (6-15) and even kept my expectations low but even after doing all that it's still a disappointment. I just finished re-watching the original 2 anime (DB&Kai) a few weeks ago and the drop in quality is very noticeable. This is exactly why I hope everyone currently involved with DB wait awhile before moving on once Toriyama's done cause I don't want this to happen again. GT had a completely new staff work on it as the one that worked on the 2 original anime moved on to new projects so had Toei waited a few years and gotten them all back together I think GT would've been very different and better.

In terms of Vegeta, he's by far the biggest disappointment for me, despite being handled better than the others. I couldn't be happier for what Super's done with him as he truly lived up to his potential after reforming during the Kid Buu fight. He's keeping up with Goku, got an original form, got to take down a destroyer candidate and for icing on the cake, got to beat down Freeza. Thank you Super for showing everyone what my #1 anime character is truly capable of.

When will people realize that their favorite character being brought back or made relevant again by popular demand does not equal them being handled better? Some characters are better left alone especially ones like Vegeta who was given close to 200 episodes in the spotlight in DBZ. His story arc ended with the conclusion of Z. He basically went full circle, starting out as a major villain, then being Goku's rival and then moving past that rivalry to become Goku's friend. GT Vegeta was the perfect continuation of that in that he's still his confident, hardass self at his core but also closer than ever to his friends and family. Goku's had many rivalries and there's a reason Krillin isn't Goku's eternal rival. The writing gets stale if they have to repeat the same themes and ideas over and over again like Piccolo being Gohan's shield because Gohan keeps forgetting to dodge.

Freeza spent most of the tournament on a rock before predictably jumping in to save the good guys. I'm not sure how his appearance in RoF was needed for this to happen. They literally could've done this with any of the past villains and it would've worked.

[sintzu]

GT Vegeta was the perfect continuation...

It was anything but. Vegeta would never give up fighting and pushing himself to new heights. Super's Vegeta has issues of its own but the core of the character was handled perfectly as we get to see the results of his reform by being able to keep up with Goku, winning against new villains and reaching new levels of power that wouldn't be possible under his old mindset.

[sunsetshimmer]

Both GT and DBS ruined Vegeta in different way.

GT Vegeta was useless but had best character development that actually followed Buu saga
DBS Vegeta is much more useful and has more spotlight, but personality-wise he is trash and very often behaves like his Cell saga self.

[JazzMazz]

Super 17's death was possibly the best in GT. It looked badass and was a nice reference to King Piccolo.

Too bad the fight leading up to it was him just throwing Ssj4 Goku into walls...

Yeah, although it was one of the most spectacular fights in DB back then. You hardly ever see environment changing so many times (+ it looked great), blasting someone literally from space, or punching through half of planet. If this fight had more of actual fighting it could easily be in top DB fights ever made. What killed it was lack of melee combat and Goku being trashed all the time. But visuals and destruction were awesome.

The first episode of that fight is actually really well directed, so I'll give some kudos to it for that. However, I think it kind of suffered the longer it went on.

Both GT and DBS ruined Vegeta in different way.

GT Vegeta was useless but had best character development that actually followed Buu saga
DBS Vegeta is much more useful and has more spotlight, but personality-wise he is trash and very often behaves like his Cell saga self.

That's debatable for the following Buu saga character development. I feel that many fans kind of ignore the full context of Goku and Vegeta's interactions during that fight.

I agree with you about Supers writers being extremely inconsitent with how to write his personality. It was extremely sporadic.

[Timetraveller]

GT Vegeta was the perfect continuation...

It was anything but. Vegeta would never give up fighting and pushing himself to new heights. Super's Vegeta has issues of its own but the core of the character was handled perfectly as we get to see the results of his reform by being able to keep up with Goku, winning against new villains and reaching new levels of power that wouldn't be possible under his old mindset.

GT Vegeta clearly didn't give up fighting since he was still by far the second strongest character in the show.

"winning against new villains and reaching new levels of power"

Tien, Krillin and Yamcha fans were saying the same thing at around the beginning of DBZ/DB 154.

[sintzu]

Tien, Krillin and Yamcha fans were saying the same thing at around the beginning of DBZ/DB 154.

Some fans are luckier than others.

[Bullza]

Honestly, for me it was better and more memorable than defeat of Frieza who is the most popular villain and i talk about both his defeat on Namek and on Earth.
While death of Cell and Buu were memorable, i never found Frieza's defeat to be anything special in DBZ or Super.

Well Frieza has had three defeats. The one from Super wasn't very good, a generic Kamehameha that killed him but the other two were plenty memorable with Frieza cutting himself in half. That's pretty different for a villain to accidentally defeat himself so graphically.

I saw that when I was about 9 on TV for the first time and I never saw or paid any attention to the series again until I started watching it when I was 17. I didn't know who Piccolo, Vegeta or Gohan were, I didn't know what a Super Saiyan was, I didn't know there was a GT but I always remembered Goku, Frieza and him being chopped in half.

Baby, I can remember being blasted into sun but even though I only just watched GT I can hardly even remember how Goku actually defeated Great Ape Baby.

[sintzu]

I only just watched GT I can hardly even remember how Goku actually defeated Great Ape Baby.

He hit him with a kamehameha then blasted his tail off...I think.

[Cetra]

Goku neutralized A Revenge Death Ball, knocked out Baby and then cut off the tail to revert the body. Baby left it and escaped.

[DiegoBrando]

As chance would have it Episode 25 to 29 was to me my favourite part of the show because it involved other characters in the action for once.

I went into GT really wanting to like it as I'm watching it in Japanese, cut out the episodes I hated (6-15) and even kept my expectations low but even after doing all that it's still a disappointment. I just finished re-watching the original 2 anime (DB&Kai) a few weeks ago and the drop in quality is very noticeable. This is exactly why I hope everyone currently involved with DB wait awhile before moving on once Toriyama's done cause I don't want this to happen again. GT had a completely new staff work on it as the one that worked on the 2 original anime moved on to new projects so had Toei waited a few years and gotten them all back together I think GT would've been very different and better.

In terms of Vegeta, he's by far the biggest disappointment for me, despite being handled better than the others. I couldn't be happier for what Super's done with him as he truly lived up to his potential after reforming during the Kid Buu fight. He's keeping up with Goku, got an original form, got to take down a destroyer candidate and for icing on the cake, got to beat down Freeza. Thank you Super for showing everyone what my #1 anime character is truly capable of.

''They gave my favourite character a power boost and changed his hair color! I am so happy, this is awesome!!!''

Anyway, GT had the best ending in the franchise, I think. It was just really good.