Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

The stickers are an official product and Kale's rating being below Super Saiyan God and above Super Saiyan 3 is consistent with what was said and shown.

Of course the others would acknowledge, she was easily one of the strongest in the Tournament. Outside of Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Hit, Toppo, Jiren and Dyspo....Kale was likely the strongest along with the likes of Gohan and the Namekians.

Goku was pushing himself. He'd recently been completely emptied of power, unable to even turn Super Saiyan at all but in real time he was quickly able to push himself through Super Saiyan 2, then 3, then God and then Blue. For some reason you're taking it as it meaning he was vastly more powerful than before though nobody ever said that. Unbelievable power is boiling inside him? Yeah? Isn't that what always happens in those forms?

There's nothing to prove really. Kale was said and shown to clearly be inferior to Super Saiyan God Goku though to a much smaller extent that Caulifla and nobody ever said that he'd randomly had a huge surge in power.

And then an official product backs this up, one that is pretty consistent and thought out.

That official product does not back up the facts that Kale PWNED Blue Goku. Blue Goku couldn't even break out of her grip. Nor does it back up the fact that the controlled Berserk Kale's energy increased even more against a stronger red Goku. There is no way a Red Goku is gonna handle a stronger Kale when in Blue he couldn't even beat her. There is no statements of Goku holding back either.

Whis himself states that Goku breaks "another one of his self limiting shells" when he goes UI against Kefla. This means Goku's overall strength did increase due to the fact that he had "another" shell to break. Why do you think a Blue Goku could battle someone who has the power of the Genki Dama evenly yet get overpowered by it earlier using KKBlueX20? Why do you think later Goku could trade blows against Jiren who released "fierce energy" and Belmound stated" I sense a rise in Jiren. I haven't seen Jiren like this in a long time?" Then he continues to break his limits again in KK Blue by powering up along side "Beyond Blue" Vegeta as stated by the Narrator?

[PFM18]

you're utterly incapable of understanding basic physics.

Ah the ol' "resort to insulting the opposition" routine. Yeah you obviously don't know me if you came to this conclusion lol. Also, it's hillarious that you seem to think that physics applies in a series where characters fly around, move faster than the speed of light, and just blow up planets.

At this point you are just being aggressive(again) and have apparently lost any interest in having an intelligent discussion. I'm done here.

[Marlowe89]

At this point you are just being aggressive(again)

Kind of a rich accusation coming from the guy who used mocking faux-quotations not even two posts ago.

With that said, I'd agree that there's little point in continuing this further. Definitely not worth getting a forum infraction over.

[PFM18]

kind of amazing this thread has reached 25,000 posts in it. I'm thankful DBS has given Dragon Ball fans so much more new stuff to talk about rather than rehashing the same couple power debates a million times.

[Bullza]

I'm just wondering when the thread will reach a million views. I thought once Super had ended it would slow that much that it wouldn't do it but it's still sorta going. It might do it, it'll be months but it'll get there.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm just wondering when the thread will reach a million views. I thought once Super had ended it would slow that much that it wouldn't do it but it's still sorta going. It might do it, it'll be months but it'll get there.

Well, power-scaling is one of those endless debates that really has no "stops", it just as "slow or fast".

[JazzMazz]

Just wait for the next chapter. I'm sure things will speed up a little with that.

[Hugo Boss]

Re: SSB Goku x SS Kefla

I think it should be clarified some points about what the characters stated. It’s implied that Goku’s low stamina is the reason for Kefla having a chance, despite her gigantic energy. It’s either that Goku’s energy should be higher or his performance in general would be superior to hers. When Goku used kaioken, it was a double-edged sword and I agree SS Kefla is around that level. The genkidama’s comparison though is complicated, because it would imply that Kefla’s energy rivals something that lies beyond what Goku could accomplish in his top condition, which would contradict the dialogue between Vados and Champa. Perhaps you could say that Kefla’s energy increased the more she got used to her power, which is in line with her using SS2 and a stronger technique further.

[Lord Beerus]

Just some random thoughts regarding Goku's stamina and energy consumption after Episode 110:

Beerus states in Episode 115, when Goku is stacking Kaioken on top of SSJB to counter SSJ Kefla's strength, that Goku was using the Kaioken despite not having full stamina. So he had certainly recovered some strength while fighting Kale and Caulifla, but he still wasn't fighting at 100%.

Goku does state in Episode 120 that he recovered a bit stamina due to Gohan fighting the Universe 3 on his own instead of him and Vegeta taking them on as they originally were, and right after that he goes SSJB, Goku uses that form for the rest of the Tournament Of Power until he gases out again and Ultra Instinct kicks for a third time in Episode 128.

So it's safe to say it take a few minutes for Goku to recover enough strength to go SSJB again, and few more minutes on top of that to maintain the for longer periods and stack Kaioken on top of it with burning out so quickly. That's most likely why he transformed into SSJG in Episode 121. As that form uses far less stamina than SSJB, and by that process, Goku was able to preserve his energy enough that he could use SSJB again for any extended battles.

Keep in mind, in Episode 119, Goku didn't use SSJB at all. So it can be assumed he gassed out after using SSJB (with a splash of Kaioken stacked on top) to eliminate the remaining Universe 2 fighter in Episode 118. And in Episode 118 itself, he only used SSJB prior to that moment in short bursts, so it can inferred Goku was running on fumes at that point and/or pure adrenaline.

The anime is very vague about stating how much stamina Goku has after Episode 110. Leading to a lot of people to question the ambiguity of how much power Goku is using in any given fight after his initial skirmish with Jiren.

[PFM18]

Re: SSB Goku x SS Kefla

I think it should be clarified some points about what the characters stated. It’s implied that Goku’s low stamina is the reason for Kefla having a chance, despite her gigantic energy. It’s either that Goku’s energy should be higher or his performance in general would be superior to hers. When Goku used kaioken, it was a double-edged sword and I agree SS Kefla is around that level. The genkidama’s comparison though is complicated, because it would imply that Kefla’s energy rivals something that lies beyond what Goku could accomplish in his top condition, which would contradict the dialogue between Vados and Champa. Perhaps you could say that Kefla’s energy increased the more she got used to her power, which is in line with her using SS2 and a stronger technique further.

yeah that's fair. See it is confusing because Goku goes Kaioken, starts dominating Kefla and Champa starts doubting her chances as she has trouble standing up, then all of a sudden she knocks out Goku and it is stated she rivals the Genki Dama that was atleast on par with the SSBKKx20.

[ssj3kakarot]

Food for thought regarding all the Goku vs Kefla/Kale/Caulifla stuff.

I enjoy trying to make sense of power levels just as much as the next guy but Super truly is in a league of its own as far as having wonky power levels/scaling problems.

Take Goku vs Krillin.

Example 1: He punches Krillin at his own request, and nearly kills him. That seems to be a good representation of the difference.

Example 2: Goku vs Krillin at Roshi's house. Another good representation. Goku is handicapped with the turtle suit and still smokes Krillin.

Example 3:Goku vs Krillin on roof top. Terrible represenation. On no planet does krillin have the capacity to physically move Goku, especially after Goku goes SSJ. SSB was utter overkill. Take Krillin vs Perfect Cell, he chucks a distructo disk at his face, and nothing! I understand Goku wanted to Krillin a taste of what he'd be up against but it doesnt help the power scaling fans with scenes like this.

Those Goku vs Krillin fights were just a few examples as to why it's so hard to come up with anything concrete as far as who is stronger than who, or at least in the gray areas. We have to come up with our own head cannon or interpretation in those scenarios. It's just not as cut and dry and then it gets messy. Some dialogue supports one camp, while feats support a different camp.

I think we can all agree at least on one solid truth! Mr Popo is Alpha! Not even Jiren dare face him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Food for thought regarding all the Goku vs Kefla/Kale/Caulifla stuff.

I enjoy trying to make sense of power levels just as much as the next guy but Super truly is in a league of its own as far as having wonky power levels/scaling problems.

Take Goku vs Krillin.

Example 1: He punches Krillin at his own request, and nearly kills him. That seems to be a good representation of the difference.

Example 2: Goku vs Krillin at Roshi's house. Another good representation. Goku is handicapped with the turtle suit and still smokes Krillin.

Example 3:Goku vs Krillin on roof top. Terrible represenation. On no planet does krillin have the capacity to physically move Goku, especially after Goku goes SSJ. SSB was utter overkill. Take Krillin vs Perfect Cell, he chucks a distructo disk at his face, and nothing! I understand Goku wanted to Krillin a taste of what he'd be up against but it doesnt help the power scaling fans with scenes like this.

Those Goku vs Krillin fights were just a few examples as to why it's so hard to come up with anything concrete as far as who is stronger than who, or at least in the gray areas. We have to come up with our own head cannon or interpretation in those scenarios. It's just not as cut and dry and then it gets messy. Some dialogue supports one camp, while feats support a different camp.

I think we can all agree at least on one solid truth! Mr Popo is Alpha! Not even Jiren dare face him.

The fact that people try to extrapolate hard power levels based on old preconceived notions from scenarios decidedly without those in mind, such as said Krillin vs. Goku fight, makes things harder.

In that same fight example, we see that Krillin uses strategy to catch Goku off-guard and keep up despite clearly being inferior in power; this is the overall narrative intent, most likely. But then we get into interpretations like yours that are too rigid to fit into this kind of paradigm; Krillin HAS TO BE [X] LEVEL OF STRENGTH TO DO [X] THING TO Goku, even though a true martial arts fight doesn't work like that.

I think the biggest issue is that both camps, that of dynamic and nonlinear martial arts fights AND hard-ingrained power level slugfests are represented, often alongside one another, and people think the inclusion of one necessarily excludes the other. It doesn't, BTW, but folks around here seem to think that fighting must always be one or the other at the expense of the other camp.

[ssj3kakarot]

Food for thought regarding all the Goku vs Kefla/Kale/Caulifla stuff.

I enjoy trying to make sense of power levels just as much as the next guy but Super truly is in a league of its own as far as having wonky power levels/scaling problems.

Take Goku vs Krillin.

Example 1: He punches Krillin at his own request, and nearly kills him. That seems to be a good representation of the difference.

Example 2: Goku vs Krillin at Roshi's house. Another good representation. Goku is handicapped with the turtle suit and still smokes Krillin.

Example 3:Goku vs Krillin on roof top. Terrible represenation. On no planet does krillin have the capacity to physically move Goku, especially after Goku goes SSJ. SSB was utter overkill. Take Krillin vs Perfect Cell, he chucks a distructo disk at his face, and nothing! I understand Goku wanted to Krillin a taste of what he'd be up against but it doesnt help the power scaling fans with scenes like this.

Those Goku vs Krillin fights were just a few examples as to why it's so hard to come up with anything concrete as far as who is stronger than who, or at least in the gray areas. We have to come up with our own head cannon or interpretation in those scenarios. It's just not as cut and dry and then it gets messy. Some dialogue supports one camp, while feats support a different camp.

I think we can all agree at least on one solid truth! Mr Popo is Alpha! Not even Jiren dare face him.

The fact that people try to extrapolate hard power levels based on old preconceived notions from scenarios decidedly without those in mind, such as said Krillin vs. Goku fight, makes things harder.

In that same fight example, we see that Krillin uses strategy to catch Goku off-guard and keep up despite clearly being inferior in power; this is the overall narrative intent, most likely. But then we get into interpretations like yours that are too rigid to fit into this kind of paradigm; Krillin HAS TO BE [X] LEVEL OF STRENGTH TO DO [X] THING TO Goku, even though a true martial arts fight doesn't work like that.

I think the biggest issue is that both camps, that of dynamic and nonlinear martial arts fights AND hard-ingrained power level slugfests are represented, often alongside one another, and people think the inclusion of one necessarily excludes the other. It doesn't, BTW, but folks around here seem to think that fighting must always be one or the other at the expense of the other camp.

Are there other scenarios where strategy is used to catch someone off guard who is leaps and bounds stronger than the other character and its effective?

Strategy has rarely ever been an effective tactic when going up against someone vastly stronger ( power level wise).

Now a special technique is different. Mafuba, Special Beam Canon, even the Tri-beam have been shown to have the ability of inflicting serious damage inspite of the stronger opponent being nearly impervious to their advances. Even someone like Supreme Kai being able to subdue someone like Gohan is a good example. It's a technique that can bridge the power level. But with Krillin, thats never been the case. I understand the writers intent, however, I believe it was poorly done. Which is why there was so much backlash with the episode. It's the same poor story telling when it comes to Goku vs Kefla/Kale/Caulifla.

The fight between Goku and Krillin doesnt follow the same architect thats nearly always been the way Db/Dbz. Which is why things like that seem odd, and hard to digest.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Are there other scenarios where strategy is used to catch someone off guard who is leaps and bounds stronger than the other character and its effective?

Strategy has rarely ever been an effective tactic when going up against someone vastly stronger ( power level wise).

Now a special technique is different. Mafuba, Special Beam Canon, even the Tri-beam have been shown to have the ability of inflicting serious damage inspite of the stronger opponent being nearly impervious to their advances. Even someone like Supreme Kai being able to subdue someone like Gohan is a good example. It's a technique that can bridge the power level. But with Krillin, thats never been the case. I understand the writers intent, however, I believe it was poorly done. Which is why there was so much backlash with the episode. It's the same poor story telling when it comes to Goku vs Kefla/Kale/Caulifla.

The fight between Goku and Krillin doesnt follow the same architect thats nearly always been the way Db/Dbz. Which is why things like that seem odd, and hard to digest.

It felt like people overblew that kind of backlash to an unreasonable degree, especially from what I read around here when the episode was released.

I LOVED how it was done, as it showcased basically how fights went down between Goku and Jiren once it was established that he was just flat-out stronger. Goku used strategy and skill to keep up with Jiren after their initial skirmish, and while it didn't work forever, it did help him deal with his opponent, leading to Jiren putting out more power to deal with them even though Goku hadn't really gotten significantly stronger overall in his old forms.

That episode actually demonstrated quite effectively from a critical standpoint how fighting should be approached; strategy and skill can help make up a large gap, but one's strength is still extremely important. While Krillin could keep up for awhile, ultimately, his strength wasn't enough; the lesson was that even against such odds, in a battle royale, anything can happen, and people won't always be fighting one-on-one.

Fighters aren't static brick walls being thrown at each other; they're fluid and driven martial artists that react differently according to body type and mindset. For example, Goku's the kind of guy who's easily impressed and likes to have a good fight, even when it means he might do worse against weaker opponents than others at a similar level to him; conversely, Freeza's the kind of guy who loves to pick on and dominate weaker fighters, so he generally sticks to being an impenetrable brick wall until someone outclasses him, at which point he kinda breaks down.

Basically, it's a matter of how one treats a fight. If one treats a fight as a slugmatch of power levels, then the dominant power level will always win out. But if a fight is treated as a proper martial arts fight, then the playing field is more evened out as fighters must consider their approach and react accordingly. This is part of why Ultra Instinct is so refreshing; it's basically taking this martial arts approach to its extreme by basically making it the greatest power the series has yet seen in terms of fighting.

[PFM18]

I don't find the scaling in DBS to be particularly bad. Although there are more things that are left open to interpretation.

[Marlowe89]

So according to official design art, the name of Vegeta's new form is "Super Saiyan Blue Strengthened" rather than "SSGSS Evolution" as Heroes had been calling it. Kinda sorta might suggest that it's not really a separate transformation per se.

Yeah, I don't expect to see this in the manga at all. I hope I'm right.

[dragon boss z]

I don't find the scaling in DBS to be particularly bad. Although there are more things that are left open to interpretation.

There a few instances that don't make sense, but mostly I think it comes down to every character now being able to fight against most characters and boosts of power mean pretty much nothing. It takes the satisfaction of characters getting a new level of power. Goku gets SSG, loses to Beerus (this one makes sense though). Goku gets SSB which is stronger than SSG, loses after Frieza who trained for 4 months. Goku and Vegeta are saiyans who reached god level, are matched by universe 6 saiyans who didn't know about ssj. Goku goes SSB KKx10 and can't beat the guy who was weaker than his SSB and got blood drawn from him with a base form attack. Trunks randomly is able to fight SSB level opponents. Roshi and Krillin are able to fight with a base Goku who is on a completely different level from before, and even before Super they were fodder to base Goku. Like what's the point of saying the characters get stronger if everyone else still is able to fight against them like they didn't get stronger and the explosions they make have gotten smaller if anything?

As for actual power scaling that didn't make sense. Piccolo being so weak in RoF, being stomped by Tagoma who was one shot by base Vegeta, but then almost beat Frost who made Goku and Vegeta go ssj.
Fused Zamasu and ssj2 Trunks (pre plot transformation) fighting SSB Goku/Vegeta and SSR Black.
Base Black seemingly being evenly matched with SSB Vegeta, only to go SSR and actually get pushed back by Vegeta before stabbing him (it almost made it seem like going SSR made him weaker if it wasn't for the stabbing scene).
Ribrainne giving Goku and Vegeta trouble, then latter being fodder to base Vegeta and lost to 18.
Kale walking through an SSB kamehameha then losing to a tired SSG Goku with help from Caulifla and while supposedly stronger than before.
SSB x20 Goku being wrecked by Jiren the first time but giving him trouble later on, along with 17 giving Jiren way too much trouble than he should have as well.

[PFM18]

So according to official design art, the name of Vegeta's new form is "Super Saiyan Blue Strengthened" rather than "SSGSS Evolution" as Heroes had been calling it. Kinda sorta might suggest that it's not really a separate transformation per se.

Yeah, I don't expect to see this in the manga at all. I hope I'm right.

Ok that name is really stupid.

I expect it to be in the manga. Vegeta beating GoD Toppo is probably in the outline and considering Vegeta is even with Base Toppo as a CSSB he needs something more to beat GoD Toppo right? I mean that makes sense to me

[Marlowe89]

I expect it to be in the manga. Vegeta beating GoD Toppo is probably in the outline and considering Vegeta is even with Base Toppo as a CSSB he needs something more to beat GoD Toppo right? I mean that makes sense to me

I don't think GoD Toppo is guaranteed to happen in the manga either, and he was already implied to possess divine ki as-is during that version's exhibition fight.

I just don't see it, honestly. There's nothing that would suggest this to come from Toriyama, and Toyotaro certainly doesn't seem to be committed to anime-exclusive transformations.

We'll see.

[PFM18]

I expect it to be in the manga. Vegeta beating GoD Toppo is probably in the outline and considering Vegeta is even with Base Toppo as a CSSB he needs something more to beat GoD Toppo right? I mean that makes sense to me

I don't think GoD Toppo is guaranteed to happen in the manga either, and he was already implied to possess divine ki as-is during that version's exhibition fight.

I just don't see it, honestly. There's nothing that would suggest this to come from Toriyama, and Toyotaro certainly doesn't seem to be committed to anime-exclusive transformations.

We'll see.

It really depends on whether or not GoD Toppo appears in the manga. As far as the "anime-exclusive transformations" are concerned, there's only one example of this so I wouldn't put too much stock into it.