"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:23 pm

I liked this chapter a lot.

This is the kind of crazy middle point I thought the anime needed. Would've expected it to involve Jiren, but structurally having Goku and Jiren's battle ramp up in the background (or in this case come in fits; I'm expecting it to be continuous from here out though) to come into eventual focus as the climax while something like Kafla happens in the foreground works just as well, if lending things a slightly different tone. Gave us some nice moments for the U6 crew as a whole too. That thumbs up is probably the best thing Cabba has ever done in any medium. It's a fun panel.

The manga's arcs have always ended up feeling like single-sitting reads (akin to longer versions of the Toriyama flicks), so I don't think this pacing is at all out of line with the series or indicative of a scheduling crunch. I suspect it'll hold up on rereads quite well.

Kale's elimination rush doesn't read as Broly favoritism either (acknowledging this as Toyotaro is unabashed about his fondness for the character and dedicated a substantial role in his fan work to him). Kale's strong—which is more than fine, especially since we know the role her powers are going to play in the next story—but defeatable. The rest of Universe 11 even gets to strut their stuff a bit by using teamwork to bring her down.

It's a chapter that bodes well for the arc structurally and manages some enjoyable, well-characterized moments on its own.

Also, it gives us this panel:

Image
Last edited by Cipher on Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:23 pm

Doctor. wrote:
LimitbreakerKrillin wrote:Loving how Kale is portrayed here, no sceaming "Gokuuu!" that kakarotto like mantra like with OG Broly. She's not SSB level, Toyo simply just avoid any fight between SSB and Kale. There was an instance where she managed to, by suprise, push Vegeta and Toppo of the the stage, but I wouldnt consider that to mean her being stronger than blue.
Did you ignore the chapter where she defeated both SSB Goku and Golden Freeza at the same time?
Defeated ? Don’t you think is an exaggeration ? I saw that as a warm up
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:28 pm

Doctor. wrote:
LimitbreakerKrillin wrote:Loving how Kale is portrayed here, no sceaming "Gokuuu!" that kakarotto like mantra like with OG Broly. She's not SSB level, Toyo simply just avoid any fight between SSB and Kale. There was an instance where she managed to, by suprise, push Vegeta and Toppo of the the stage, but I wouldnt consider that to mean her being stronger than blue.
Did you ignore the chapter where she defeated both SSB Goku and Golden Freeza at the same time?
Frieza stated that he wasn't even serious. If it tells you anything, Frieza was holding back to the extent that Caulifla's blast could have actually hurt him, if he was hit directly by it. And she didn't even hurt Goku. He was just blocking her attacks was surprised by how strong she was getting. None of this even hints that they were taking her seriously.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:31 pm

Damn, this chapter was great. Went from 0 to 100 like that, wasting no time trimming the fat, and adding a ridiculous sense of urgency and tension. Much better than the absolute slog of a snore-fest that was the anime a great majority of the time. This continues to shape up to be a nice, relatively brisk, small side story, like the rest of Super's films/manga arcs. Should be nice to re-read in the future.

Given where we know the series goes after this arc, I suppose Kale's rampage was all poignant foreshadowing. That was also the most clever use of Potara I've ever seen. Vegeta busting out a ki sword was something new from him (much better than spamming Final Flash every episode), and it was a clever way to get back on stage.

Only character whose elimination here I liked more in the anime was probably Obuni, whose fight with Gohan gave the anime one of its rare, fleeting moments of emotional impact.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:34 pm

Omniboy wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
LimitbreakerKrillin wrote:Loving how Kale is portrayed here, no sceaming "Gokuuu!" that kakarotto like mantra like with OG Broly. She's not SSB level, Toyo simply just avoid any fight between SSB and Kale. There was an instance where she managed to, by suprise, push Vegeta and Toppo of the the stage, but I wouldnt consider that to mean her being stronger than blue.
Did you ignore the chapter where she defeated both SSB Goku and Golden Freeza at the same time?
Frieza stated that he wasn't even serious. If it tells you anything, Frieza was holding back to the extent that Caulifla's blast could have actually hurt him, if he was hit directly by it. And she didn't even hurt Goku. He was just blocking her attacks was surprised by how strong she was getting. None of this even hints that they were taking her seriously.
Freeza was bleeding. He was about as serious as it can get.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:34 pm

I'll try to review the chapter in full later this weekend, but I thought it was excellent. The characterization of Universe 6's Saiyans was eloquent and impactful, the chaotic tone of the tournament is completely inverted and simultaneously maintained by Kale's rampage (further cementing her as a force to be reckoned with), and Kefla vs. Gohan gives us that MEME MAGIC that will surely invoke several shitposting wars to come on /a/.

Pretty thankful we got something different and refreshing this time around.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:38 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Omniboy wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Did you ignore the chapter where she defeated both SSB Goku and Golden Freeza at the same time?
Frieza stated that he wasn't even serious. If it tells you anything, Frieza was holding back to the extent that Caulifla's blast could have actually hurt him, if he was hit directly by it. And she didn't even hurt Goku. He was just blocking her attacks was surprised by how strong she was getting. None of this even hints that they were taking her seriously.
Freeza was bleeding. He was about as serious as it can get.
And imperfect Cell caused Second Grade Super Saiyan Vegeta to bleed... so that means that he is as strong him, and that Vegeta was serious as well?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:40 pm

Well that sure was something. Can't say I really liked this chapter all that much, the only parts that I sorta liked was the stuff with Caulifla and Cabba. It was just so rushed with so many people getting eliminated so quickly and I found it hard to enjoy. Makes me wish that this tournament was just between Universe 7, 6, and 11 since it feels pointless to have the other universes around if your going to get rid of them so quickly. Also can't help but feel disappointed with the missed opportunity of having 17 fight the U6 Namekians. Hell it would have been cool to have 17 and Roshi fight together against the U6 Namekians but that sadly won't ever happen now. The setup for next chapter is neat to say the least.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:40 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Omniboy wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Did you ignore the chapter where she defeated both SSB Goku and Golden Freeza at the same time?
Frieza stated that he wasn't even serious. If it tells you anything, Frieza was holding back to the extent that Caulifla's blast could have actually hurt him, if he was hit directly by it. And she didn't even hurt Goku. He was just blocking her attacks was surprised by how strong she was getting. None of this even hints that they were taking her seriously.
Freeza was bleeding. He was about as serious as it can get.
What about goku defeated by kale , tell us
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:41 pm

I liked the chapter, I just wish Aniraza and the Namekians did a little bit more, especially the namekians. Imo they should have fought Piccolo earlier. But besides that I think everything was fine. Oh and it will be really weird if Gohan can somehow match Kefla next chapter.
Zamasu55 wrote:Ssj Goku > weakest Pride Troopers >>> Aniraza.

Toyotaro logic.
No, Kale is just all about power, so she overpowered Aniraza, but the pride troopers used teamwork to get around her power that was reaching it's limit.
In terms of power I would assume
Kale>Aniraza>ssj Goku>weak pride troopers

Don't forget Kale man handled golden Frieza, but as we learned in this chapter if Frieza kept fighter her he would have most likely ended up dominating her once he saw through her fighting style.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:42 pm

Omniboy wrote:And imperfect Cell caused Second Grade Super Saiyan Vegeta to bleed... so that means that he is as strong him, and that Vegeta was serious as well?
Vegeta didn't budge from his spot and let Cell hit him on purpose. Freeza was trying to fight Kale and was getting smacked around. I'm sure it was totally Freeza's intention to hold back so much he'd get smacked around, get hurt, start bleeding and waste stamina in the process for absolutely no reason. SSB Goku was also holding back so much that he was getting pushed back by Kale's punches.

I honestly don't give a shit about how strong Kale is. But you people are ignoring what the chapters present you and trying to rationalize what you don't like into something that you feel is more believable.

And frankly, this "holding back" excuse is the same exact thing manga fans criticized the anime fans for saying whenever they tried to justify the anime's shit powerscalling, and yet here we are.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:42 pm

PFM18 wrote: Well yes exactly. It is an inconsistency. She literally almost knocks CSSB Vegeta out of the arena, she gave CSSB Goku and Golden Freeza trouble, and then she goes and gets "handled" by a bunch of scrubs. It makes no sense.
In a surprise attack, nothing wrong with that. Vegeta then proceeded to ignore her.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:49 pm

Chapter was kinda boring.. but its been like that the entire time for this arc so far hit or miss. I dont mind that the other universe were eliminated so quickly.. they didnt serve no real purpose in the grand scheme of things anyway, so fuck it why not just get rid of em.

Does it seemed rushed? yeah sure kinda but think about it yall.. Toyo is expected to dish out a 45 page chapter every month, i'm not sure when he's supposed to be done with the arc ( if they gave him a time frame at all) but with a tournament of this scope and magnitude can you seriously expect him to flesh out even half of the cast of this arc with out it spilling well over into next year w/o people complaining that its "Dragging"?
It's not too late. One day, it will be.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:50 pm

At this point, I would really have to say that I preferred the anime’s way handling most of the things that happened in this recent chapter, from Obuni’s elimination, to U2’s and U3’s erasure, to Vegeta saving Cabba. The only thing I kind of liked compared to the anime was the bit where it was established that the Pride Troopers have an advantage over the other teams due to their propensity for teamwork, but even that never actually came up until this past chapter, and now that 60% of the team is gone, it likely won’t come up again.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:51 pm

I am utterly confused by criticisms over Kale's strength relative to Golden Freeza/blue Saiyans based on:

1) The fact that while she can clearly give them some trouble, anything else is inconclusive as we don't get to see it this chapter

2) The fact that we know the next villain is strong enough to bat those characters around with the same transformation as Kale, so what would it matter even if she explicitly could? She's said to be continuously increasing her power.

3) The fact that this is in the manga discussion thread and not the strength discussion thread

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:53 pm

I forgot to mention one scene that I like [spoiler]ImageImage[/spoiler]This chapter would have definitely been better if it focused more on Obuni vs Kale and U11 vs U6 then the chapter would have been much better and more impactful imo instead we got a mess.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pannaliciour » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:55 pm

People thought the manga will save this arc, but I am starting to think that the anime did their best with this arc. This ToP doesn't feel like power at all. They all feel like Radditz tier or something. Especially Jiren. They all feel so weak.

But I can't wait for ultra instinct in this manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:58 pm

Cipher wrote:I am utterly confused by criticisms over Kale's strength relative to Golden Freeza/blue Saiyans based on:

1) The fact that while she can clearly give them some trouble, anything else is inconclusive as we don't get to see it this chapter

2) The fact that we know the next villain is strong enough to bat those characters around with the same transformation as Kale, so what would it matter even if she explicitly could? She's said to be continuously increasing her power.

3) The fact that this is in the manga discussion thread and not the strength discussion thread
Nobody has an issue with Kale's strength relative to SSB (you have some people in denial about how strong she's supposed to be, but that's about it). The problem people have is Kale then getting beaten by the Pride Troopers when she's so strong. I feel like Toyotaro gave an acceptable explanation, as best as he can at least, so I don't really care.

Regardless of her battle power, Kale is still a dumb Broly expy and she brings the quality of every chapter she's in down.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:01 pm

Pannaliciour wrote:People thought the manga will save this arc, but I am starting to think that the anime did their best with this arc. This ToP doesn't feel like power at all. They all feel like Radditz tier or something. Especially Jiren. They all feel so weak.

But I can't wait for ultra instinct in this manga.
To be fare namek saga Frieza in his first form was able to dominate U7, and Beerus was completely shocked anyone could beat Frieza, so these other universes being mostly fodder to current characters makes sense.
But ya I think the anime will end up being overall better, but that's to be expected since it has so much more time to flesh everything out.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:02 pm

Cipher wrote:I am utterly confused by criticisms over Kale's strength relative to Golden Freeza/blue Saiyans based on:

1) The fact that while she can clearly give them some trouble, anything else is inconclusive as we don't get to see it this chapter

2) The fact that we know the next villain is strong enough to bat those characters around with the same transformation as Kale, so what would it matter even if she explicitly could? She's said to be continuously increasing her power.

3) The fact that this is in the manga discussion thread and not the strength discussion thread
I think the biggest issue people have is that she's later overwhelmed by the Pride Troopers, but that was also explained: Universe 11 has excellent teamwork and coordination, Kale's movements are predictable, and Kale's power actually decreased by then according to Vegeta because of her instability.

If people have an issue with the perceived adequacy of the explanation, that's one thing, but one was certainly provided by the dialogue.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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