"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Simere]

I'm not familiar with this mural. Can someone please show me?

1, 2, 3. I don't think posters draped over a wall count as a mural.

[Grimlock]

I'd thought about this as well, but I don't think the movie continuity and the manga continuity are quite compatible, given the whole SSJ Red level base forms in the films that are presumably absent entirely from the manga. Please don't misunderstand; I believe 100% that Vegeta acquired SSJ Red via the ritual between Battle of Gods and Revival of F in the manga continuity as well, but Vegeta stating himself to be next in line for SSJ Red doesn't necessarily guarantee that it happened in what Toriyama views as the progression of the story, if that makes sense.

Yes, the movies do not take place in the same continuity as either anime's or manga's. And we can't tell what is the deal going on in Toyotaro's manga since Vegeta as Super Saiyan God just popped out without a decent explanation (as far as I remember).

That said, if Dragon Ball Super's movie is anything to go by, I would say that is exactly the case. In Movie 14 Vegeta said he would achieve Super Saiyan God (a movie with full involvement from the author) and now we are seeing that Vegeta indeed achieved Super Saiyan God (in another movie that has full involvement from the author). We (actually you since I'm not seeing the movie) can only hope they finally explain how Vegeta got the form in the new movie.

You misread me or I didn't express myself clearly. My point was Shueisha/Bird studios > some american fans.

Oh, sorry then.

Well, then the only thing left is me asking for you to provide a source that implies that "posters draped over a wall" comes from Shueisha itself; something that confirms that someone from Japan made that mural and translated it. Otherwise that footnote is just credits and it will be seen as just another American usual behavior stating what is and what is not canonical about a Japanese work.

[Tai Lung]

Didn't they? Then what are these?.

You misread me or I didn't express myself clearly. My point was Shueisha/Bird studios > some american fans.

Kale literally banged against them and then they did not care even though Frieza did not want Goku to help him against her
nobody cares about the danger that is kale or if it kills someone who conveniently does not do it even though she out of control and everyone there is weak

but if I wanted to fight with goku against jiren ... So...
the members of the universe 6 are not enemies so it is not ... they are in a tournament where the survival of their universe depends on their victory and teamwork is key
all character in dragon ball can become stronger is the development of warrior is more easier but only some show that they can change as a person something that is an even greater achievement
piccolo and gohan, trunks and vegeta, mr satan and buu dragon ball is not just development as a warrior ... you are in a mistake

Those are main stayers of DB, that's why they changed. Who said Hit has to change if he won't be part of the main cast? He is an assassin and was looking to get back at Goku. Nothing requires him to hold hands.

That's right, why should Goku or Freeza or anybody else from U7 worry about an enemy who is wrecking the other universes? Especially when the fighters could spot Kale's weakness and dwindling powers like Vegeta mentioned.

because it is part of the main universes of this arc ... and its change was due to something bigger the "universal survival"
well to gohan should import him how it bothers him that they kill everyone in namek
How does that taste frieza? he only cared to take revenge and kill her seconds earlier when he was being attacked ... then he stayed static
but anyway if you want to see it ..
as you want

[Simere]

You misread me or I didn't express myself clearly. My point was Shueisha/Bird studios > some american fans.

Oh, sorry then.

Well, then the only thing left is me asking for you to provide a source that implies that "posters draped over a wall" comes from Shueisha itself; something that confirms that someone from Japan made that mural and translated it. Otherwise that footnote is just credits and it will be seen as just another American usual behavior stating what is and what is not canonical about a Japanese work.

It uses VIZ spellings, and I imagine those stands with manga chapters beside it are the VIZ translations. Maybe somebody should ask VIZ if they did it.

[Bergamo]

I'd thought about this as well, but I don't think the movie continuity and the manga continuity are quite compatible, given the whole SSJ Red level base forms in the films that are presumably absent entirely from the manga. Please don't misunderstand; I believe 100% that Vegeta acquired SSJ Red via the ritual between Battle of Gods and Revival of F in the manga continuity as well, but Vegeta stating himself to be next in line for SSJ Red doesn't necessarily guarantee that it happened in what Toriyama views as the progression of the story, if that makes sense.

Yes, the movies do not take place in the same continuity as either anime's or manga's. And we can't tell what is the deal going on in Toyotaro's manga since Vegeta as Super Saiyan God just popped out without a decent explanation (as far as I remember).

That said, if Dragon Ball Super's movie is anything to go by, I would say that is exactly the case. In Movie 14 Vegeta said he would achieve Super Saiyan God (a movie with full involvement from the author) and now we are seeing that Vegeta indeed achieved Super Saiyan God (in another movie that has full involvement from the author). We (actually you since I'm not seeing the movie) can only hope they finally explain how Vegeta got the form in the new movie.

You misread me or I didn't express myself clearly. My point was Shueisha/Bird studios > some american fans.

Oh, sorry then.

Well, then the only thing left is me asking for you to provide a source that implies that "posters draped over a wall" comes from Shueisha itself; something that confirms that someone from Japan made that mural and translated it. Otherwise that footnote is just credits and it will be seen as just another American usual behavior stating what is and what is not canonical about a Japanese work.

It baffles my mind that there could be a promotional poster that states that the DBS manga is a legitimate sequel to the original Dragon Ball manga, and it even cites Bird Studios and Shueisha on the poster, and people won't even consider its legitimacy.

It's not like it says, "MANGA IS CANON, SUX ANIME FANS." It doesn't challenge the legitimacy of the anime, it just reinforces what we have known forever: The anime is a sequel to the anime, and the manga is a sequel to the manga.

[Black Hawk]

Yes, the movies do not take place in the same continuity as either anime's or manga's. And we can't tell what is the deal going on in Toyotaro's manga since Vegeta as Super Saiyan God just popped out without a decent explanation (as far as I remember). And I consider Toriyama's continuity (movies) instead Toei's (anime) or Toyotaro's (manga).

That said, if Dragon Ball Super's movie is anything to go by, I would say that is exactly the case. In Movie 14 Vegeta said he would achieve Super Saiyan God (a movie with total involvement from the author) and now we are seeing that Vegeta indeed achieved Super Saiyan God (in another movie that has total involvement from the author). We (actually you since I'm not seeing the movie) can only hope they finally explain how Vegeta got the form in the new movie.

That's honestly a pretty good point. If the Broli film turns out to follow the continuity of the Battle of Gods and Revival of F films (barring the nature of Goku's and Vegeta's base power, since we already know they'll use SSJ1 and SSJ Red), and it's at least implied that Vegeta has had SSJ Red since around the time period of Battle of Gods, I'd certainly concede that Toriyama likely intended Vegeta to be a SSJ Red in his vision of the story. I'm still not quite convinced, but I'll be keeping an open mind when I watch the film. If the film you proves correct and I remember our discussion, I'll let you know you were right.

[Grimlock]

It uses VIZ spellings, and I imagine those stands with manga chapters beside it are the VIZ translations. Maybe somebody should ask VIZ if they did it.

Well, if someone here could contact VIZ I would appreciate if they ask them who did that mural.

It baffles my mind that there could be a promotional poster that states that the DBS manga is a legitimate sequel to the original Dragon Ball manga, and it even cites Bird Studios and Shueisha on the poster, and people won't even consider its legitimacy.

Yeah, blame IGN and Chris Sabat. I wouldn't doubt its legitimacy if I didn't know they tend to make up false claims about canonicity.

That's honestly a pretty good point. If the Broli film turns out to follow the continuity of the Battle of Gods and Revival of F films (barring the nature of Goku's and Vegeta's base power, since we already know they'll use SSJ1 and SSJ Red), and it's at least implied that Vegeta has had SSJ Red since around the time period of Battle of Gods, I'd certainly concede that Toriyama likely intended Vegeta to be a SSJ Red in his vision of the story. I'm still not quite convinced, but I'll be keeping an open mind when I watch the film. If the film you proves correct and I remember our discussion, I'll let you know you were right.

Hopefully I turn out to be correct because the way Toei handled is terrible. They imply Vegeta can transform into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan "without having Super Saiyan God", at least that was the impression I had when I unfortunately watched the retellings. He got God Ki when he entered Whis' staff and that's it, and "skipped" Super Saiyan God for no reason.

I really wouldn't like to see Toei's stuff in regards to Vegeta/God Ki/Super Saiyan God in this movie. Since it seems Toriyama's fully involved with the "plot" (?) maybe he won't listen to anyone and instead follows what he established in Movie 14.

[Miracles]

Oh, sorry then.

Well, then the only thing left is me asking for you to provide a source that implies that "posters draped over a wall" comes from Shueisha itself; something that confirms that someone from Japan made that mural and translated it. Otherwise that footnote is just credits and it will be seen as just another American usual behavior stating what is and what is not canonical about a Japanese work.

The same wall posters have the Broly movie designs on them. So I guess that means that isn't from Shueisha Japan either? Not to mention the fact that The editor-in-chief of V-Jump, Akio Iyoku was sanctioning the event as official Japanese promo via america. But you must think he is american too?

lol...

[emperior]

It has already been stated that the movie will be the continuation of the anime. The manga is still canonical in a way, as it tells the same story even if it has some differences.
But the author is writing the next story with the anime in mind, which confirms how the animated version of Super is actually the main continuity, thus it is “more canonical”.

[Black Hawk]

Hopefully I turn out to be correct because the way Toei handled is terrible. They imply Vegeta can transform into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan "without having Super Saiyan God", at least that was the impression I had when I unfortunately watched the retellings. He got God Ki when he entered Whis' staff and that's it, and "skipped" Super Saiyan God for no reason.

I really wouldn't like to see Toei's stuff in regards to Vegeta/God Ki/Super Saiyan God in this movie. Since it seems Toriyama's fully involved with the "plot" (?) maybe he won't listen to anyone and instead follows what he established in Movie 14.

I agree completely. I felt like the entire story of how Vegeta became a SSJ Blue was not done well at all. Firstly, his taking off with Whis and leaving Goku behind for six months directly contradicts Toriyama's statement (presumably still true for his view of the story) that Goku wanted Whis to train him and that Vegeta refused to be left behind, so they went with Whis together and began training at the same time. His refusal to undergo with ritual and his insistence on surpassing SSJ Red, a form that was previously established to be beyond what Goku and Vegeta are capable of on their own, contradicted Toriyama's having Vegeta state that he was next in line for the ritual in the film. On top of that, just in my personal opinion, the method of feeling the pressure of deity ki in Whis' staff seemed completely out of left field and didn't make sense within the story progression, especially given that, later on in the manga, SSJ Blue was described as the next step up from SSJ Red, implying if not outright confirming that Red was necessary to reach Blue.

Ugh, there's not much in the anime that I view as a complete mess, but that's one of them for me. I don't mind Toei spinning their own take on the story, but when it directly contradicts what Toriyama establishes and pulls strange oddities out of nowhere, it hurts the consistency of the story for me, but that's probably because I look into what Toriyama says too much.

[Marlowe89]

It has already been stated that the movie will be the continuation of the anime.

Not really. The link you quoted earlier was a Japanese news site (not even an official Dragon Ball site) that stated the movie follows a TV series called Dragon Ball Super. Nothing in there about canonicity, and there's not even an indication that they were referring to in-universe continuity as opposed to, say, release continuity, which is exactly what news sites typically refer to in this context. That's on top of it being in an animated format just like the show.

Meanwhile, you have television ads and other materials that literally suggest the Super manga to be a continuation of the original manga. Not sure how much more clear-cut it can get. This is a frankly pointless debate, by the way, because there's no such thing as "more canon" in a franchise that willingly embraces multiple continuities with varying levels of involvement from the author.

But the author is writing the next story with the anime in mind

Or he's just writing the story with his outlines in mind, which honestly sounds way more realistic to me than what you're suggesting.

[Bergamo]

It baffles my mind that there could be a promotional poster that states that the DBS manga is a legitimate sequel to the original Dragon Ball manga, and it even cites Bird Studios and Shueisha on the poster, and people won't even consider its legitimacy.

Yeah, blame IGN and Chris Sabat. I wouldn't doubt its legitimacy if I didn't know they tend to make up false claims about canonicity.

This isn't IGN or Chris Sabat, this is Shueisha and Bird Studios, who contribute to the creation of Dragon Ball. Denying this only makes you look like a child.

Edit: 100% proof this is from Shueisha/Bird Studios.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[alakazam^]

It's not like it says, "MANGA IS CANON, SUX ANIME FANS." It doesn't challenge the legitimacy of the anime, it just reinforces what we have known forever: The anime is a sequel to the anime, and the manga is a sequel to the manga.

No, we don't know that because it's false. Both the anime and manga are sequels to Toriyama's manga.

[Bergamo]

It's not like it says, "MANGA IS CANON, SUX ANIME FANS." It doesn't challenge the legitimacy of the anime, it just reinforces what we have known forever: The anime is a sequel to the anime, and the manga is a sequel to the manga.

No, we don't know that because it's false. Both the anime and manga are sequels to Toriyama's manga.

The anime uses the Yardrat design from Toei filler. The manga eliminated Jimeze immediately as to not call attention to the fact that he looks like a filler Yardrat. Frog Ginyu in the anime contradicts the original manga(but not DBKai). DBS uses footage from DBKai and aired one week after Kai stopped airing in Japan, but tell me how DBS is not a direct sequel to DBKai.

[alakazam^]

The anime uses the Yardrat design from Toei filler. The manga eliminated Jimeze immediately as to not call attention to the fact that he looks like a filler Yardrat. Frog Ginyu in the anime contradicts the original manga(but not DBKai). DBS uses footage from DBKai and aired one week after Kai stopped airing in Japan, but tell me how DBS is not a direct sequel to DBKai.

Because Mecha Freeza was in a coccoon in Earth's Hell, or did you forgot?

I was expecting you talking about Gregory and Satan's students, which are incredibly minor additions, but your examples don't make much sense either.

Jimeeze's design isn't 100% what we saw in filler but, regardless, you actually think Toyotarou eliminated him for that reason? Of course not.

Ginyuu contradicts Kai as well because he wasn't supposed to be revived by the Dragon Balls after Boo. If you go around that, him being on Earth can be explained easily.

Super uses HD footage it already had available, does it matter if it was from Kai or Z? Besides, I seem to recall a flashback with blue-haired Trunks so that would contradict what you're saying.

Yeah, it started one week after Kai ended. Where is Oob, then? Because I remember Goku flying away with him. I guess he got bored and went back to his truck.

[emperior]

“The Dragon Ball Super movie this time will be the next story in the series currently airing on TV. It will be an episode after catching our breath from the climax of the Tournament of Power with the universe’s existence on the line”

This comes directly from Toriyama’s first message about the movie. You can continue to ignore the proof we have so far about the anime being the main product, and therefore the true canon, to follow what was written (and misinterpreted) on a poster at Comic-Con, which we don’t even know who wrote it and who approved it, just because it has Shueisha’s mark.

The manga IS a continuation of the original manga, as the anime is too. Too bad the manga skips half of BoG and the entirety of RoF, but surely in that case you consider the movies, don’t you? Even though BoG is immediately contradicted by Toyotaro’s own short version of it. Meanwhile the anime took its time to retell the movies, as Toriyama specifically wanted everyone to see what happens so as to not alienate new fans or those who didn’t watch the movies.

This debate will finally end on December, thanks to God. I wonder if you guys will continue to come up with excuses even if the movie makes it clear it happens on the same continuity as the anime.

[sintzu]

The manga skips half of BoG and the entirety of RoF.

It's also rushing the tournament of power. I was all for the manga doing things a bit faster but what's been done so far is inexcusable.

[Raphael_Z]

“The Dragon Ball Super movie this time will be the next story in the series currently airing on TV. It will be an episode after catching our breath from the climax of the Tournament of Power with the universe’s existence on the line”

This comes directly from Toriyama’s first message about the movie. You can continue to ignore the proof we have so far about the anime being the main product, and therefore the true canon, to follow what was written (and misinterpreted) on a poster at Comic-Con, which we don’t even know who wrote it and who approved it, just because it has Shueisha’s mark.

The manga IS a continuation of the original manga, as the anime is too. Too bad the manga skips half of BoG and the entirety of RoF, but surely in that case you consider the movies, don’t you? Even though BoG is immediately contradicted by Toyotaro’s own short version of it. Meanwhile the anime took its time to retell the movies, as Toriyama specifically wanted everyone to see what happens so as to not alienate new fans or those who didn’t watch the movies.

This debate will finally end on December, thanks to God. I wonder if you guys will continue to come up with excuses even if the movie makes it clear it happens on the same continuity as the anime.

The differences between the anime and manga are very minor to be honest (like honestly, who cares if all the fodder universes got eliminated in one chapter? They were just filler before the real showdown between U7, U6 and U11). The only major changes were the second half of the Goku Black saga and the fact that Gohan is Kale's opponent in the TOP.

When it comes to Vegeta being a Super Saiyan God, this can be easily explained by a single line about how the original ritual awakened his dormant god power as well. After all, there's a small time skip in both the anime and manga (and in the movies) between BoG and RoF in which Vegeta went from SSJ2 to SSB, it isn't hard to believe that he went SSG first but quickly ditched cause he achieved SSB right after.

[alakazam^]

(like honestly, who cares if all the fodder universes got eliminated in one chapter?

Many people do. You only think of them as "fodder", as you put it, because nothing interesting was made with them by Toyotarou.

[Bergamo]

The anime uses the Yardrat design from Toei filler. The manga eliminated Jimeze immediately as to not call attention to the fact that he looks like a filler Yardrat. Frog Ginyu in the anime contradicts the original manga(but not DBKai). DBS uses footage from DBKai and aired one week after Kai stopped airing in Japan, but tell me how DBS is not a direct sequel to DBKai.

Because Mecha Freeza was in a coccoon in Earth's Hell, or did you forgot?

I was expecting you talking about Gregory and Satan's students, which are incredibly minor additions, but your examples don't make much sense either.

Jimeeze's design isn't 100% what we saw in filler but, regardless, you actually think Toyotarou eliminated him for that reason? Of course not.

Ginyuu contradicts Kai as well because he wasn't supposed to be revived by the Dragon Balls after Boo. If you go around that, him being on Earth can be explained easily.

Super uses HD footage it already had available, does it matter if it was from Kai or Z? Besides, I seem to recall a flashback with blue-haired Trunks so that would contradict what you're saying.

Yeah, it started one week after Kai ended. Where is Oob, then? Because I remember Goku flying away with him. I guess he got bored and went back to his truck.

Just because Super doesn't take off directly after Z doesn't mean it isn't a continuation. Super is a continuation. The point isn't about absolute continuity, it's about how the DBS anime takes multiple concepts from DBZ anime fillers, and how that makes it obviously a sequel to what the anime side of the franchise has been doing. The DBS anime is obviously a sequel to Kai and the other anime series. You can't deny the obvious reality.