The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Goten and Trunks vs The Trio De Dangers

[Berserker1921]

Goten and Trunks vs The Trio De Dangers

The Trio easily wins. The weakest one is at least ssj2 (buu saga level). While Bergamo when charged up is at least ssj God level. So they slaughter the poor saiyan kiddos.

[dragon boss z]

Goten and Trunks vs The Trio De Dangers

The Trio easily wins. The weakest one is at least ssj2 (buu saga level). While Bergamo when charged up is at least ssj God level. So they slaughter the poor saiyan kiddos.

Basil even with a power amp lost to good Buu who was just above Buu saga ssj2 level. Him and Lavender aren't on buu saga ssj 2 level imo.

However the trio do win.

[Berserker1921]

Goten and Trunks vs The Trio De Dangers

The Trio easily wins. The weakest one is at least ssj2 (buu saga level). While Bergamo when charged up is at least ssj God level. So they slaughter the poor saiyan kiddos.

Basil even with a power amp lost to good Buu who was just above Buu saga ssj2 level. Him and Lavender aren't on buu saga ssj 2 level imo.

However the trio do win.

Good buu is prob about ssj3 level at most. Basil was at least low ssj2. The poison one was at least at the same area but has poison hax. And Bergamo was temp competing with none serious ssj blue Goku when he was powered up. So he is pretty up there. And the kids are at best individually mastered ssj level. At best.

[dragon boss z]

Good buu is prob about ssj3 level at most. Basil was at least low ssj2. The poison one was at least at the same area but has poison hax. And Bergamo was temp competing with none serious ssj blue Goku when he was powered up. So he is pretty up there. And the kids are at best individually mastered ssj level. At best.

Good Buu seemed to fight closer to how ssj2 Vegeta did rather than ssj3 Goku against kid Buu. I would say he is a bit above ssj2 level in power but much harder to kill.
And I agree the kids aren't that strong or winning this. Imo they can be anywhere between suppressed final form Frieza to cell games ssj tier. I personally put them below full power Frieza as they have never proven to me they could beat someone on his level or higher. The best thing they ever did was fight a holding back 18.

[Myzt0gun]

Good buu is prob about ssj3 level at most. Basil was at least low ssj2. The poison one was at least at the same area but has poison hax. And Bergamo was temp competing with none serious ssj blue Goku when he was powered up. So he is pretty up there. And the kids are at best individually mastered ssj level. At best.

Good Buu seemed to fight closer to how ssj2 Vegeta did rather than ssj3 Goku against kid Buu. I would say he is a bit above ssj2 level in power but much harder to kill.
And I agree the kids aren't that strong or winning this. Imo they can be anywhere between suppressed final form Frieza to cell games ssj tier. I personally put them below full power Frieza as they have never proven to me they could beat someone on his level or higher. The best thing they ever did was fight a holding back 18.

True, it seems anyone that isn't Goku or Vegeta or any new villains (like Jiren, Hit, Zamasu, frieza) are being fodder/set aside when we enter a New Arc

Especially in the manga where they treated 90% of the characters as fodder, i mean they could've given the leaders of the other universes atleast 1 eliminations but No, Kale one shotted 17 characters including Ganos/Anizara/Obuni, Ribrianne and 18 defeated by the bugs and Bergamo at a disadvantage on Piccolo

so Goten and Trunks remains Z level or weaker since they're not fighting major villains anymore

[AhmadHendie]

SSB GT GOKU(SD) VS SSB super Goku(ToP)

GT Gohan(kept training, SSJ on top of ultimate) vs DBS Gohan

scaling question How does SSBE compare with SSBKKX20 ?

[Berserker1921]

SSB GT GOKU(SD) VS SSB super Goku(ToP)

GT Gohan(kept training, SSJ on top of ultimate) vs DBS Gohan

scaling question How does SSBE compare with SSBKKX20 ?

1. GT Goku has more experience being older. However I am going to give it to Super Goku because he has been training with Whis. Who has helped him unlock so much potential. If GT Goku trained with Whis to become SsjB then GT Goku. But I am sure he hasn't so, ToP Goku for the win after a hard battle.

2. Well Super Gohan reached ssj God levels, while GT gohan struggled with various GT villains. I have all GT villains under SsjGod. So Super Gohan for the win.

3. I think it's about as strong as kkx20, or a bit higher. I personally think it makes Vegeta around Goku's level.

[AhmadHendie]

SSB GT GOKU(SD) VS SSB super Goku(ToP)

GT Gohan(kept training, SSJ on top of ultimate) vs DBS Gohan

scaling question How does SSBE compare with SSBKKX20 ?

1. GT Goku has more experience being older. However I am going to give it to Super Goku because he has been training with Whis. Who has helped him unlock so much potential. If GT Goku trained with Whis to become SsjB then GT Goku. But I am sure he hasn't so, ToP Goku for the win after a hard battle.

2. Well Super Gohan reached ssj God levels, while GT gohan struggled with various GT villains. I have all GT villains under SsjGod. So Super Gohan for the win.

3. I think it's about as strong as kkx20, or a bit higher. I personally think it makes Vegeta around Goku's level.

The hard thing I am having trouble understanding is :

1 how is gohan so strong in dbs after training with piccolo for a year ? In GT he trained for 10 years, stacked ssj on top of ultimate, received power boost from baby and ended up still being fodder to base GT goku in the baby saga

2 where would base DBS goku stand compared to Z ? DBGT base goku is above SSJ vegito(SD saga)

[sunsetshimmer]

SSB GT GOKU(SD) VS SSB super Goku(ToP)

Base power levels of Goku and Vegeta in GT were higher, so SSJB Goku from GT would be stronger than SSJB Goku from Super and so on.
Of course there are other things like for how long GT Goku has SSJB since with lack of experience he might not be able to use full potential of this form.

GT Gohan(kept training, SSJ on top of ultimate) vs DBS Gohan

Power-wise: GT Gohan thanks to using Ultimate as base form
Technique-wise: DBS Gohan thanks to recent battle experience on tournament and against Piccolo compared to regular training GT Gohan probably mostly did

[PFM18]

Well Goku never said what form of Gotenks and he was also holding back on Buu. He later admitted he could have beat fat Buu if he wanted to. I believe there is also the daizenshuu stating that after training the ROSAT Gotenks surpassed Vegeta, but did not mention Goku.

The fact that Goku did not say what form means absolutely nothing. Obviously he was referring to SSJ because he had absolutely no idea that Gotenks would be able to access anything further than that. He told Buu that Gotenks was going to be stronger than him and he was very confident in a SSJ Gotenks victory. Even if they are on the same level, SSJ3 Gotenks is automatically 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

No, we don't really need to be arbitrary, it's just that static multipliers to every form was never actually stated in the manga and Toriyama seems to not write the story with them in mind.

At the end of the day, official sources still state them and they are rarely, if ever contradicted outside of GT. There is no reason to disregard them just because they were stated somewhere other than the official manga. Besides, it was certainly implied during the Namek Arc when KKx20 Goku~50% Freeza and SSJ GOku>100% Freeza, that automatically implies more than the double boost Freeza got and the 2.5x boost that 20->50 would indicate.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I agree the 70% line in the movie was retconned, I was just saying the 10% line in Super was also retconned. And my evidence for multipliers possibly shrinking with fusion is that by statements post ROSAT Gotenks arguably surpassed pre ROSAT ssj Gotenks quickly and definitely didn't seem to get 50x stronger, and in the anime base Vegito going ssj didn't really seem like that crazy of a boost. Also Whis implied training in their bases was best and not relying on transformations, but if multipliers were static that wouldn't make much sense. It's possible going ssj is just a release of a saiyans' potential, and when you train your base enough or fuse your base form is closer to your potential so the ssj form doesn't boost you as much. But ya that's just a theory.

It appeared that there was some evidence that Base Gotenks(Post)>SSJ Gotenks(pre) but there was never anything definitive. Either way, "He didn't seem to be 50x stronger" is not objective evidence against the multipliers. Vegetto is a poor example considering that Vegetto was dominating regardless of what form and he never used his full-power in his SSJ state. Besides, if he was dominating and then still dominating how could you possibly make a conclusion that the power boost isn't that large?

Whis encouraging them to train in their bases is not really an indication of anything. Training in their weakest forms allows them to yield the biggest gains from the same training, training with those massive suits would not have been very if taxing at all if they were in their SSJ forms so it does not strain their bodies. That was the point of training in Base. It has nothing to do with whether or not the multipliers are static or not.

If I remember correct Goku was so tired he was having problems standing up and having trouble with fodder U3 robots before Caulifla came in to fight him.

I don't recall that but I haven't seen it in a while and I'll take your word for it. If that is the case, then it would appear scaling Caulifla off Goku would be less reliable but it could just indicate she is 100x stronger than Kid Buu rather than 10,000x. There's quite literally no way that she could be objectivel deduced as being weaker than Kid Buu.

I mean you could say that, but it's a massive stretch. The fact Piccolo could put up a fight and that Buu was most likely written out of the tournament as he would be too strong are indicators Frost isn't that powerful. I would put him high Buu saga level max.

It's not a stretch. Frost's power cannot reliably be gauged given how much he was beaten by Goku. He was heavily weakened and he still was superior to Piccolo in strength so to scale Piccolo as anything close to Frost is irrational.

Also, how on God's green Earth is there any indication that Buu was written out of the tournament because he was "too strong"?

It would probably put him at least 2x ssj Goku and Jiren was also mentally drained seemingly giving up already.

And you do realize that being 1x as strong as SSJ Goku vs being 2x as strong as SSJ Goku means absolutely nothing when compared to being massively stronger than SSBKKx20 right? That is a negligible difference between 1x SSJ Goku or 2x SSJ Goku.

He was still cocky but he was noticeably scared. And if base Vegeta was near his level he could have just went ssj to beat him, and Goku wouldn't have had to go blue to kill a injured base Frieza.

Based on what we saw, practically speaking, yeah ti is certainly possible that Vegeta could have won with SSJ, but from an Out of Universe it would be very strange to have Goku show off his new SSB and not have Vegeta use it despite him also having unlocked the form. Point is, Freeza was clearly massively weaker.

Ok, I assumed that was from the anime, but them protecting him doesn't mean he is automatically weaker. Yamcha and Tien came together to help Goku and they both ended up getting beaten up anyways. Also Goku's fight with Cell was much more intense than his and Frost's.

That was still the implication from the dialogue. The dialogue's existence would be pointless if Goku wasn't the weakest link due to his exhaustion and damage from the previous fight. He was massively weaker as the dialogue is clearly trying to portray.

I do, but like I said I would still put current ssj Goku probably at least close to ssj Vegito and I don't think ssj Vegito may only be like 10x weaker than BoG SSG.

Well I am not sure what you are going off of to make that conclusion but objectively based on feats and statements: current SSJ Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ Vegetto Buu arc.

That's true, but the writers don't care about that. They think Roshi with an amp can fight current base Goku and that Krillin can push Goku to go ssj. At this point anything is possible and they do whatever looks cool. Ssj Goku and Frieza together is extremely iconic and they wanted that to be what finished Jiren. Jiren went from beating Golden Frieza to having final form Frieza and base Goku challenge him. Not to mention even when he wasn't tired final form Frieza was able to force him to block and back up. Super just made it so transformations really don't seem to do much. They are really just superficial color changes we are told make them stronger. The only time they actually made it look like the transformations made a difference was when Goku first fought Jiren.

At the end of the day those are just casual sparring scenes and there's no reason that Goku would have been fighting seriously and you shouldn't take those fights seriously either. It is simply your speculation that the writers don't care about that.

Vegeta wouldn't risk everything just because he wants Earth to save itself. I knew the option was brought up, but if they were really dozens of times stronger Vegeta should have just went with that. But if they were both around ssj3 Goku tier Vegeta's decision would make sense and ssj3 Goku couldn't beat kid Buu and they may end up just getting absorbed and making things worse.

Goku risked everything just so that "the next generation" could save itelf. I see no reason Vegeta wasn't doing something similar here. Nobody ever said "dozens of times stronger" so I'm not sure why you said that. Ultimate Gohan would be A singular dozen strogner than SSJ3 Goku at the most here.

Hit is just too reliant on his techniques than actual power to say for certain Goku got 10x stronger.

I am well aware. That is why I am specifically citing the time dimension rather than fighting hit himself. It is hard to gauge hit because of all of his time hax abilities. But taking Kaiokenx10 to break the time dimension to later doing it without Kaioken is pretty clear cut that he got 10x stronger. The time dimension shattering probably has a every similar if not higher threshold to break and Goku broke it without Kaioken. Logically he MUST be 10x stronger.

Vegeta did not do "godly training". We know exactly what he did. He did chores and lifted weights and he told us when Goku showed up that was all he did. It was only after Goku showed up when they trained in Whis' special stalf room did they do some new training to harness their ki inside themselves.

The doing chores was entirely separate from the training. Whis's training emphasized ki control based on what he told Vegeta before the training started. Regardless the training that Vegeta received prior to Goku showing up yielded gains enough to make his ki entirely unrecognizable from what it was when he was on Earth. That was his equivalent of the boost that Goku received from the ritual. At this point in the story, both character's SSJ is stronger than SSG BoG and their respective bases dwarf anything from the Buu saga outside of maybe Super Vegetto. That really cannot be denied based on what is being told in the story.

I'm not really throwing it out. Goku got a boost from SSG, but his ssj didn't retain that power. Like I've mentioned before, if his regular ssj form was SSG level and Beerus told him he was going at 100%, why didn't Goku go ssj2 (he did this many times in Super) to just easily beat Beerus?

....because that wouldn't have been enough to beat Beerus? Either way, his SSJ retained all of the power of SSG as stated by Beerus and Goku and confirmed by the dialogue on Whis's planet with Vegeta.

Goku himself didn't even realize he was in ssj, so that is another hint that something wasn't normal.

Well exactly. That was the entire point of the scene. He was a normal SSJ but his power was exactly the same so he didn't even notice that he was no longer a SSG. He was = to his previous self as a SSJ. Sure, it wasn't "normal" but that was entirely the situation.

Plus Toriyama said he wouldn't need SSG anymore because he absorbed it, but that was cleary retconned as he now goes SSG again, and Toriyama also said he would not go ssj2 and ssj3 anymore, but that was retconned as well.

Toriyama said that in 2013. Things have massively changed since then. Toriyama also designed the "Saiyan Beyond God" for the RoF movie where they had a "form" where they were stronger than SSG in base and they absorbed all of the power into their base, but that was very clearly changed going into DBS. The way things functioned now, he just experienced the power of SSG, and made it his own. That is literally it. It did not inhibit his ability to transform into SSG or any other transformations.

If we do go with ssj Goku stayed the same level as SSG, then I would also go with SSG being barely stronger than regular ssj Vegito. If we go with SSG being stronger than ssj3 Vegito I would say Goku would have to go at least ssj3 to regain the power of an SSG after he lost the power up. And I agree it's headcanon, practically all of this is head anon as they have different writers working on different episodes never being consistent and not carring to explain where the characters are in terms of power.

Yes exactly. It is headcanon. You are entirely arbitrarily deciding that GOku would have to go SSJ3 in order to retain the power despite this not being supported in any way.

At the end of the day, Base Caulifla>>>>>>>>Kid Buu cannot be objectively denied.

SSB GT GOKU(SD) VS SSB super Goku(ToP)

DBS Goku wins with around 5-10% of his full-power IMO. HIs base is massively stronger because of the "god boost" and what not.

GT Gohan(kept training, SSJ on top of ultimate) vs DBS Gohan

Goku's plot-hole induced SSJ on top of Ultimate would not save him here. He instantly gets one shot easily.

scaling question How does SSBE compare with SSBKKX20 ?

When he first achieved it they were equals. But Vegeta got a huge boost against Toppo and he far surpassed SSBKKx20. The way I interpreted it was against Toppo he was able to fully unlock the power of his new transformation.

how is gohan so strong in dbs after training with piccolo for a year ? In GT he trained for 10 years, stacked ssj on top of ultimate, received power boost from baby and ended up still being fodder to base GT goku in the baby saga

Well in "Goku's time" anybody other than Goku being relevant in terms of power is strictly prohibited.

I am not entirely sure why Gohan became so strong so fast, but the way I interpreted it was that once he trained in Ultimate he yielded massive boosts. Ultimate being a form that fully utulizes your potential and takes your power beyond it's limits. Gohan had never trained while in his Ultimate state before, so I mean I guess this is why.(Realistically there is no real In-Universe explanation.)

[dragon boss z]

The fact that Goku did not say what form means absolutely nothing. Obviously he was referring to SSJ because he had absolutely no idea that Gotenks would be able to access anything further than that. He told Buu that Gotenks was going to be stronger than him and he was very confident in a SSJ Gotenks victory. Even if they are on the same level, SSJ3 Gotenks is automatically 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

There is really no way Goku would have known how strong Gotenks would have been. And clearly leaving it in their hands wasn't a good idea as they almost got themselves killed the first time they fought fat Buu, and they couldn't beat Super Buu. Lets just look at Gotenk's actual feats. In base he lost to fat Buu. In base and ssj he lost to Super Buu. In ssj3 he seemed to hold the edge over Super Buu. That's it. His ssj form never proved it was ssj3 Goku level, and ssj3 Goku was stated to be able to kill kid Buu at full power and it was stated kid Buu was quite a bit stronger than fat Buu. So it could easily be fat Buu<ssj Gotenks<kid Buu<ssj3 Goku<ssj3 Gotenks.

At the end of the day, official sources still state them and they are rarely, if ever contradicted outside of GT. There is no reason to disregard them just because they were stated somewhere other than the official manga. Besides, it was certainly implied during the Namek Arc when KKx20 Goku~50% Freeza and SSJ GOku>100% Freeza, that automatically implies more than the double boost Freeza got and the 2.5x boost that 20->50 would indicate.

I definitely agree the ssj multiplier was 50x in the fight on Namek, and I think for most saiyans it is. I'm just saying things can possibly affect the multiplier, such as rage boosts, fusions, Goku absorbing god power, ect.

It appeared that there was some evidence that Base Gotenks(Post)>SSJ Gotenks(pre) but there was never anything definitive. Either way, "He didn't seem to be 50x stronger" is not objective evidence against the multipliers. Vegetto is a poor example considering that Vegetto was dominating regardless of what form and he never used his full-power in his SSJ state. Besides, if he was dominating and then still dominating how could you possibly make a conclusion that the power boost isn't that large?

Well you would think if he was dominating and then got 50x stronger on top of that he would have just breathed Buu away. But it's possible ssj is a 50x boost for fusions, especially in the manga. Imo the anime makes it seem like the boosts are less than the manga does sometimes.

Whis encouraging them to train in their bases is not really an indication of anything. Training in their weakest forms allows them to yield the biggest gains from the same training, training with those massive suits would not have been very if taxing at all if they were in their SSJ forms so it does not strain their bodies. That was the point of training in Base. It has nothing to do with whether or not the multipliers are static or not.

It could be both though. For example Whis said they would be stronger if they didn't let their ki leak from their body. So ssj might be 50x their normal base, but not 50x their base without letting ki leak out.

I don't recall that but I haven't seen it in a while and I'll take your word for it. If that is the case, then it would appear scaling Caulifla off Goku would be less reliable but it could just indicate she is 100x stronger than Kid Buu rather than 10,000x. There's quite literally no way that she could be objectivel deduced as being weaker than Kid Buu.

You could use the same logic to say Krillin and Roshi are above kid Buu though. I definitely think they decided to dial Goku's power back a bit and it's really hard to scale off of him in general as his power is all over the place. He can be challenged by Krillin one second, and keep up with Golden Frieza in base the next.

It's not a stretch. Frost's power cannot reliably be gauged given how much he was beaten by Goku. He was heavily weakened and he still was superior to Piccolo in strength so to scale Piccolo as anything close to Frost is irrational.

Well in the manga he seems to be around Cell to Buu level. The anime is a bit different but when it comes to frost I think he ends up in a similar spot though a bit stronger. In the manga Piccolo actually put up a fight in hand to hand combat, but in the anime Frost was definitely quite a bit above. I would say in the anime he could be around Super Buu level, but the fact Piccolo was still weaker than Fat Buu means I don't think he would be much higher than that.

Also, how on God's green Earth is there any indication that Buu was written out of the tournament because he was "too strong"?

It's the only logical explanation. If Buu was so weak he would be easily defeated, then why not just have him fight? It was the same reason he wasn't in RoF, he would beat all the soldiers in an instant.
Lets just look at how the fights would go. Botamo gets ringed out because he is fodder. Frost can't poison Buu as he is immune. Magetta is such a big target Buu can just turn him into chocolate. Hit's moves won't work as Buu is just a pink glob. Everyone knows how strong Buu is, so if these guys were supposed to be so far above Buu, they would have had Buu compete to get easily ringed out to show how strong they are. But instead Buu goes to sleep and Piccolo almost beats the guy who was supposedly the strongest warrior in their universe according to Vados in the manga.

And you do realize that being 1x as strong as SSJ Goku vs being 2x as strong as SSJ Goku means absolutely nothing when compared to being massively stronger than SSBKKx20 right? That is a negligible difference between 1x SSJ Goku or 2x SSJ Goku.

I don't think the gap is as big as you have it. Going by anime scaling if ssj Goku is a 1, ssj3 is a 8, SSG is a 10, SSB is a 50, SSBx20 is a 1000. So maybe Jiren got 500x weaker, but it was over time and after breaking his limit and taking major hits multiple times. Over each episode he might have gotten a few times weaker which adds up. Frost fought Goku for like 2 minutes, lol.

That was still the implication from the dialogue. The dialogue's existence would be pointless if Goku wasn't the weakest link due to his exhaustion and damage from the previous fight. He was massively weaker as the dialogue is clearly trying to portray.

It's not really the same thing though. Imagine a bear that was shot and was having trouble standing up. If a pack of coyotes came and attacked you as a healthy adult human would be better at fending the group of coyotes away, but the bear would still be able to beat you in 1v1 combat if it really had to. It could be a similar case here. Goku might still be able to hit much harder than them, but he is having trouble focusing and keeping up with everything.

Well I am not sure what you are going off of to make that conclusion but objectively based on feats and statements: current SSJ Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ Vegetto Buu arc.

Not really. The best feat current ssj Goku has is fighting a massively suppressed Beerus. If you are talking about the universal shockwaves, 1 that was in SSG form, 2 ssj Vegito stomped Buuhan who was going to destroy the universe by screaming, and you even admitted ssj Vegito was holding back. So really there is nothing ssj Goku did way above ssj Vegito.

At the end of the day those are just casual sparring scenes and there's no reason that Goku would have been fighting seriously and you shouldn't take those fights seriously either. It is simply your speculation that the writers don't care about that.

I mean it's pretty clear they don't care about power scaling when they have a guy who was Zarbon level a few months prior stomp Piccolo. I think it depends on the writer. Some of the writers of Super are pretty good, some not so much. I mean it just craps all over what Piccolo went through to have a fodder soldier like that stomp him. It would be one thing if he was a major character in the arc and had a reason to get strong, but he didn't and he just got casually killed off by base Vegeta (which makes sense but Piccolo should have been able to do the same).

The doing chores was entirely separate from the training. Whis's training emphasized ki control based on what he told Vegeta before the training started. Regardless the training that Vegeta received prior to Goku showing up yielded gains enough to make his ki entirely unrecognizable from what it was when he was on Earth. That was his equivalent of the boost that Goku received from the ritual. At this point in the story, both character's SSJ is stronger than SSG BoG and their respective bases dwarf anything from the Buu saga outside of maybe Super Vegetto. That really cannot be denied based on what is being told in the story.

But I'm pretty sure when Goku asked Vegeta what type of training he did he said the chores and weights were all he did up to that point. And then When Goku showed up Whis decided to take it to the next step.

....because that wouldn't have been enough to beat Beerus?

But Beerus said he was using 100% and Goku believed him at the time so there would be no reason to go ssj2 to beat him. Of course he wouldn't, but Goku wouldn't know that until he did it.

Either way, his SSJ retained all of the power of SSG as stated by Beerus and Goku and confirmed by the dialogue on Whis's planet with Vegeta.

When did Whis say that?

Toriyama said that in 2013. Things have massively changed since then. Toriyama also designed the "Saiyan Beyond God" for the RoF movie where they had a "form" where they were stronger than SSG in base and they absorbed all of the power into their base, but that was very clearly changed going into DBS. The way things functioned now, he just experienced the power of SSG, and made it his own. That is literally it. It did not inhibit his ability to transform into SSG or any other transformations.

Actually I'm not sure this is entirely the case. I agree Goku's base was supposed to be near god level, but I think the saiyan beyond god think got confused because the thing that was originally supposed to be beyond god was SSB. In the movie verse SSG was 60% of Beerus, so clearly their base was never supposed to be beyond that, only SSB. And when I asked someone for the scan showing proof for saiyan beyond god, it didn't actually prove it and it made it seem more like it was talking about their full power or SSB. The only think that it said about their base is it had god like power, never that it was at or above the level of SSG.

At the end of the day, Base Caulifla>>>>>>>>Kid Buu cannot be objectively denied.

Wrong. Buu after a few hours of training did better against base Goku than initial ssj2 Caulifla did against a tired base Goku. Fat Buu also beat roided out Basil, and Basil was able to fight base Goku. Goku and Vegeta literally went SSB to knock out the trio de danger and 2 of them are weaker than fat Buu...

[Analytic]

There is really no way Goku would have known how strong Gotenks would have been.

Why? I've never understood why people think they know better than Goku about Fusion. He feels Goten and Trunks's Ki before making his assessment, so it's not like he's just pulling it out of his ass. He clearly has some basis for it unlike forum posters who just don't like Gotenks being so strong.

From a narrative standpoint, "Goku teaches Goten and Trunks the ultimate technique, but is unaware that Majin Boo will get a super power-up that causes his plan to fail" is a lot more coherent than "Goku teaches Goten and Trunks a really questionable "ultimate" technique that was inevitably going to fail". Reasons being:

1.) Goku stating later he could've defeated Fat Boo makes him incredibly stupid. If he has no idea how strong Gotenks will end up, why on Earth would he not defeat Boo and instead just hope for the best?
2.) Fat Boo's transformation into Evil Boo is pointless because if Gotenks was never stronger than Boo to begin with, then there's no reason for Boo to power-up. It's obvious that Boo transforming was to keep the story going because Gotenks would've defeated Fat Boo.

[dragon boss z]

Why? I've never understood why people think they know better than Goku about Fusion. He feels Goten and Trunks's Ki before making his assessment, so it's not like he's just pulling it out of his ass. He clearly has some basis for it unlike forum posters who just don't like Gotenks being so strong.

I never said I know more than Goku about fusion...
Goku was making a predictions bout the future. I'm making an analysis on the past. You would be right if we didn't see Gotenk's power yet and I was acting like my opinion of how strong Gotenks would be in the future is more accurate than Goku's, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying all Goku said is he though Gotenks could beat Buu with fusion. He never said what form, he didn't say they would definitely win their first try, he just said he believed they could do it. He even said it would be a gamble.
And now looking back they got beat up the first time they fought Buu and defused the 2nd time after needing to go ssj3.
Also the daizenshuu says after the ROSAT Gotenks passed Vegeta (implying beforehand he might not have even been stronger than ssj2 Vegeta) and it never said he surpassed Goku. Then there is also the anime of ssj3 Goku fighting against an opponent who is 2x stronger than ssj3 Gotenks, let alone ssj Gotenks. So that is 2 official sources implying what I'm saying could be true.

From a narrative standpoint, "Goku teaches Goten and Trunks the ultimate technique, but is unaware that Majin Boo will get a super power-up that causes his plan to fail" is a lot more coherent than "Goku teaches Goten and Trunks a really questionable "ultimate" technique that was inevitably going to fail". Reasons being:

1.) Goku stating later he could've defeated Fat Boo makes him incredibly stupid. If he has no idea how strong Gotenks will end up, why on Earth would he not defeat Boo and instead just hope for the best?
2.) Fat Boo's transformation into Evil Boo is pointless because if Gotenks was never stronger than Boo to begin with, then there's no reason for Boo to power-up. It's obvious that Boo transforming was to keep the story going because Gotenks would've defeated Fat Boo.

I never said it wasn't possible ssj Gotenks couldn't have beaten fat Buu, I mean technically Fat Buu almost lost to ssj2 Vegeta. I'm saying ssj Gotenks is weaker than a full power serious ssj3 Goku, not weaker than Fat Buu.

Oh and Goku even flat out stated it was a gamble, lmao.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Oh and Piccolo even said they should hold off on using the ROSAT for fusion training as they might need it later, which means he knew they might need it to get stronger to beat Buu.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

So based on the facts
1. Goku said it was a gamble
2. Goku said they may need the ROSAT

Yes, Goku did not know for sure if they could win as if he did neither of those would make sense.

So while I completely agree you opinion is sensible, you are acting like mine isn't even though I have plenty of evidence for my position.

[PFM18]

There is really no way Goku would have known how strong Gotenks would have been. And clearly leaving it in their hands wasn't a good idea as they almost got themselves killed the first time they fought fat Buu, and they couldn't beat Super Buu. Lets just look at Gotenk's actual feats. In base he lost to fat Buu. In base and ssj he lost to Super Buu. In ssj3 he seemed to hold the edge over Super Buu. That's it. His ssj form never proved it was ssj3 Goku level, and ssj3 Goku was stated to be able to kill kid Buu at full power and it was stated kid Buu was quite a bit stronger than fat Buu. So it could easily be fat Buu<ssj Gotenks<kid Buu<ssj3 Goku<ssj3 Gotenks.

His base lost to Fat Buu before the ROSAT. That is the weakest iteration of Gotenks by far. That says nothing. He lost to Super Buu but Super Buu>>>>>Kid Buu/Fat Buu. The show depicts Goku having more confidence in Gotenks than he does himself and we have no reason to believe that this confidence was misplaced.

I definitely agree the ssj multiplier was 50x in the fight on Namek, and I think for most saiyans it is. I'm just saying things can possibly affect the multiplier, such as rage boosts, fusions, Goku absorbing god power, ect.

It is technically possible that is the case but there's nothing definitive so using tht in a conversation like this doesn't hold any water.

It could be both though. For example Whis said they would be stronger if they didn't let their ki leak from their body. So ssj might be 50x their normal base, but not 50x their base without letting ki leak out.

Again, it is technically possible but there's no real evidence for such a thing.

You could use the same logic to say Krillin and Roshi are above kid Buu though. I definitely think they decided to dial Goku's power back a bit and it's really hard to scale off of him in general as his power is all over the place. He can be challenged by Krillin one second, and keep up with Golden Frieza in base the next.

Well no you can't say the same about Roshi because in his case:

A. He got a ki amp from the lady that was controlling her.
B. Goku didn't appear to be putting in any effort into the fight.

In Krillin's case, the best he can boast is literally one scene when it appeared Goku had to go SSJ against him. We can see in the ToP what we would expect, being Base Goku>>>>Krillin.

Well in the manga he seems to be around Cell to Buu level.

The manga is entirely irrelevant here.

The anime is a bit different but when it comes to frost I think he ends up in a similar spot though a bit stronger.

Well you would be wrong. Goku was forced to use SSJ against Frost and this is the same Goku who's SSJ has far surpassed his SSG BoG self. Statements dictate that his SSJ was equal to SSG during BoG and he got far stronger since then so rationally speaking anybody who can even remotely compete with SSJ Goku at this point is far beyond anythnig from the Buu Saga.

It's the only logical explanation. If Buu was so weak he would be easily defeated, then why not just have him fight? It was the same reason he wasn't in RoF, he would beat all the soldiers in an instant.
Lets just look at how the fights would go. Botamo gets ringed out because he is fodder. Frost can't poison Buu as he is immune. Magetta is such a big target Buu can just turn him into chocolate. Hit's moves won't work as Buu is just a pink glob. Everyone knows how strong Buu is, so if these guys were supposed to be so far above Buu, they would have had Buu compete to get easily ringed out to show how strong they are. But instead Buu goes to sleep and Piccolo almost beats the guy who was supposedly the strongest warrior in their universe according to Vados in the manga.

If Buu goes first then he would just get one shot by Frost and that is the end of it. Assuming Frost isn't beaten and battered he wouldn't need to use poison because he has an overwhelming power advantage from what we saw. I don't particularly care for speculation about how strong these characters were "supposed" to be. Because we know that they WERE relative to Base Goku and Vegeta who between Vegeta's 6 months training with Whis and Goku's ritual boost, have dwarfed their Buu arc counterparts. Base Goku/Vegeta are massively stronger than their strongest forms from the Buu arc so naturally if they can compete with these characters then they are clearly superior to Buu in power.

ssj Goku is a 1, ssj3 is a 8, SSG is a 10, SSB is a 50, SSBx20 is a 1000

What? care to elaborate on that?

It's not really the same thing though. Imagine a bear that was shot and was having trouble standing up. If a pack of coyotes came and attacked you as a healthy adult human would be better at fending the group of coyotes away, but the bear would still be able to beat you in 1v1 combat if it really had to. It could be a similar case here. Goku might still be able to hit much harder than them, but he is having trouble focusing and keeping up with everything.

It is possible that technically "Goku can hit harder" but the scene very clearly portrays Goku as the weakest link in that bunch and he needs protection more than anybody else. He didn't deny that he needed help he thanked them for their help.

Not really. The best feat current ssj Goku has is fighting a massively suppressed Beerus. If you are talking about the universal shockwaves, 1 that was in SSG form, 2 ssj Vegito stomped Buuhan who was going to destroy the universe by screaming, and you even admitted ssj Vegito was holding back. So really there is nothing ssj Goku did way above ssj Vegito.

SSJ Goku was equal to Super Saiyan God. Both Beerus and Goku stated this to be the case and it was shown to be the case during the fight. Super Saiyan God was strongly implied to be superior to SSJ3 Vegetto and Goku has gotten tens of times stronger since BoG so his SSJ is massively stronger than Buu Arc SSJ3 Vegetto. Nothing contradicts this during the series and if anything it is reinforced throughout the series.

I mean it's pretty clear they don't care about power scaling when they have a guy who was Zarbon level a few months prior stomp Piccolo. I think it depends on the writer. Some of the writers of Super are pretty good, some not so much. I mean it just craps all over what Piccolo went through to have a fodder soldier like that stomp him. It would be one thing if he was a major character in the arc and had a reason to get strong, but he didn't and he just got casually killed off by base Vegeta (which makes sense but Piccolo should have been able to do the same).

Your speculation about the quality of the writers doesn't have much baring on where Caulifla stands compared to Kid Buu from an In-Universe perspective.

But I'm pretty sure when Goku asked Vegeta what type of training he did he said the chores and weights were all he did up to that point. And then When Goku showed up Whis decided to take it to the next step.

I don't recall Vegeta explaining what specifically he did with Whis. Either way, when Whis offered to train Vegeta he said that he could become stronger than Goku if he learned to control his ki better, and sure enough he equaled or surpassed Goku so I would imagine this was a result of controlling his ki better. Regardless of what training he did, he got so much stronger that his ki was unrecognizable from what it was on Earth and he was still around equal to Goku so Goku must have kept the boost he got from retaining the power of SSG.

But Beerus said he was using 100% and Goku believed him at the time so there would be no reason to go ssj2 to beat him. Of course he wouldn't, but Goku wouldn't know that until he did it.

Yeah that's pretty fair. Still, for whatever reason GOku did not go SSJ2/3. Maybe he didn't because he couldn't or something but either way it doesn't change that his SSJ was =to SSG from a moment prior.

When did Whis say that?

I am not referring to anything Whis said I am referring to the dialogue between Goku and vegeta that confirmed that Goku had retained his "God boost." For Goku and Vegeta to continue to be around equals despite Vegeta's ki being completely unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, Goku would have to have retained the boost he got from the ritual in order to keep pace with Vegeta.

Actually I'm not sure this is entirely the case. I agree Goku's base was supposed to be near god level, but I think the saiyan beyond god think got confused because the thing that was originally supposed to be beyond god was SSB. In the movie verse SSG was 60% of Beerus, so clearly their base was never supposed to be beyond that, only SSB. And when I asked someone for the scan showing proof for saiyan beyond god, it didn't actually prove it and it made it seem more like it was talking about their full power or SSB. The only think that it said about their base is it had god like power, never that it was at or above the level of SSG.

The official name of the form was literally "Saiyan Beyond God." And if I recall correctly the dialogue in the movie confirmed that their base was superior to SSG. They had God Ki in their base with the "god like power", and that form was supposed to invalidate the golden SSJ forms. But clearly that was retconned in DBS. Their base is weaker than the movie, they don't have God Ki, and so their golden SSJ forms have retained usefulness and by extension the SSG form would logically be able to be transformed into and gain a boost from it. The way the scaling works including the sentiment about transforming into SSG becoming unnecessary, was all retconned by DBS.

Wrong. Buu after a few hours of training did better against base Goku than initial ssj2 Caulifla did against a tired base Goku. Fat Buu also beat roided out Basil, and Basil was able to fight base Goku. Goku and Vegeta literally went SSB to knock out the trio de danger and 2 of them are weaker than fat Buu...

Uhh what? That is a very strange conclusion.

A. Goku may not have been using his full-power against Buu in his Base.
B. Caulifla had a vast advantage in power it was just the difference in skill that made the difference in that brief fight. They were dead even in power as shown by them fighting as SSJ2s and being equals. Goku "fought" Basil briefly and it wasn't as though he was winning.
C.The SSB thing was just for dramatic effect and from an In-Universe perspective it was a 3v2 beam struggle and I would imagine their combination is very strong since they are brothers and can attack in unison very well. Either way, they are not portrayed to be stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta so nothing is contradicted.

[dragon boss z]

His base lost to Fat Buu before the ROSAT. That is the weakest iteration of Gotenks by far. That says nothing. He lost to Super Buu but Super Buu>>>>>Kid Buu/Fat Buu. The show depicts Goku having more confidence in Gotenks than he does himself and we have no reason to believe that this confidence was misplaced.

And it was later revealed Goku was lying. And Super Buu really shouldn't be that much stronger than Fat Buu. It's pretty much Fat Buu without his good kai limiter. So whatever kid Buu + the 4 supreme kais comes out to would probably make sense. I guess it depends on how strong you think the supreme kais were.

Well you would be wrong. Goku was forced to use SSJ against Frost and this is the same Goku who's SSJ has far surpassed his SSG BoG self. Statements dictate that his SSJ was equal to SSG during BoG and he got far stronger since then so rationally speaking anybody who can even remotely compete with SSJ Goku at this point is far beyond anythnig from the Buu Saga.

ssj Goku and ssj Vegeta were fighting Basil and Beragom who were both weaker than Fat Buu.

If Buu goes first then he would just get one shot by Frost and that is the end of it. Assuming Frost isn't beaten and battered he wouldn't need to use poison because he has an overwhelming power advantage from what we saw. I don't particularly care for speculation about how strong these characters were "supposed" to be. Because we know that they WERE relative to Base Goku and Vegeta who between Vegeta's 6 months training with Whis and Goku's ritual boost, have dwarfed their Buu arc counterparts. Base Goku/Vegeta are massively stronger than their strongest forms from the Buu arc so naturally if they can compete with these characters then they are clearly superior to Buu in power.

Like I said, if Frost could one shot Buu why not have him do it to show off how strong he is and build more hype? And I don't think Frost can compete with Goku and Vegeta, they weren't taking any of the fights seriously until hit. Base Goku made hit bleed. Could Frost do that? Could Frost keep up with Golden Frieza or survive a hakai for as long as Goku did? I think not.

What? care to elaborate on that?

That's how I would scale Goku's power ups in the ToP. I have his SSB KKx20 around 1,000 time his ssj, but that's if we use multipliers which I'm not sure if we should.

SSJ Goku was equal to Super Saiyan God. Both Beerus and Goku stated this to be the case and it was shown to be the case during the fight. Super Saiyan God was strongly implied to be superior to SSJ3 Vegetto and Goku has gotten tens of times stronger since BoG so his SSJ is massively stronger than Buu Arc SSJ3 Vegetto. Nothing contradicts this during the series and if anything it is reinforced throughout the series.

Pretty sure the only power statements about SSG were he never felt anything thing like it and how nobody could feel his power, ect. I don't think Goku ever said something along the lines of "wow this is much stronger than fusion could have ever been". It just means that as an SSG he was stronger than ssj Vegito as he felt how strong that was before. He could be stronger than ssj3 Vegito as well, but ssj3 Vegito isn't even really a thing as it never happened.

I don't recall Vegeta explaining what specifically he did with Whis. Either way, when Whis offered to train Vegeta he said that he could become stronger than Goku if he learned to control his ki better, and sure enough he equaled or surpassed Goku so I would imagine this was a result of controlling his ki better. Regardless of what training he did, he got so much stronger that his ki was unrecognizable from what it was on Earth and he was still around equal to Goku so Goku must have kept the boost he got from retaining the power of SSG.

It's weird that controlling his ki better would make him as strong as you are saying. If what you are saying is true Vegeta pretty much go the same boost as Frieza did in 4 months as both started off around namek saga Frieza level in base, and both reached above ssj3 level in 4 months.

Yeah that's pretty fair. Still, for whatever reason GOku did not go SSJ2/3. Maybe he didn't because he couldn't or something but either way it doesn't change that his SSJ was =to SSG from a moment prior.

Oh I agree with that. At that moment ssj was as strong as SSG.

I am not referring to anything Whis said I am referring to the dialogue between Goku and vegeta that confirmed that Goku had retained his "God boost." For Goku and Vegeta to continue to be around equals despite Vegeta's ki being completely unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, Goku would have to have retained the boost he got from the ritual in order to keep pace with Vegeta.

I never denied Goku got a boost from SSG though. He definitely got some sort of boost, and Vegeta caught up to it in a few months.

The official name of the form was literally "Saiyan Beyond God." And if I recall correctly the dialogue in the movie confirmed that their base was superior to SSG. They had God Ki in their base with the "god like power", and that form was supposed to invalidate the golden SSJ forms. But clearly that was retconned in DBS. Their base is weaker than the movie, they don't have God Ki, and so their golden SSJ forms have retained usefulness and by extension the SSG form would logically be able to be transformed into and gain a boost from it. The way the scaling works including the sentiment about transforming into SSG becoming unnecessary, was all retconned by DBS.

Can you show me a scan proving the form is called saiyan beyond god? Like I said I think there was confusion and Goku and Vegeta themselves were saiyan beyond gods, not their base form, but them themselves as in their full power.
And no statement in the movie said their base was above god form. And that would make no sense as SSG is 60% Beerus in the movie verse unless RoF retconned that.

Uhh what? That is a very strange conclusion.

A. Goku may not have been using his full-power against Buu in his Base.
B. Caulifla had a vast advantage in power it was just the difference in skill that made the difference in that brief fight. They were dead even in power as shown by them fighting as SSJ2s and being equals. Goku "fought" Basil briefly and it wasn't as though he was winning.
C.The SSB thing was just for dramatic effect and from an In-Universe perspective it was a 3v2 beam struggle and I would imagine their combination is very strong since they are brothers and can attack in unison very well. Either way, they are not portrayed to be stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta so nothing is contradicted.

Tired base Goku didn't just out skill ssj2 Caulifla. He literally clashed with her head on and their fists collided like they were equals.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Not to mention she should be so much faster Goku's skill shouldn't even matter.
It definitely seems they weren't that far apart in power and speed, but Caulifla did have the edge.

[PFM18]

And it was later revealed Goku was lying. And Super Buu really shouldn't be that much stronger than Fat Buu. It's pretty much Fat Buu without his good kai limiter. So whatever kid Buu + the 4 supreme kais comes out to would probably make sense. I guess it depends on how strong you think the supreme kais were.

He was just lying about the fact that he went all out to beat Fat Buu. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was lying about having as much or more confidence in Gotenks than he does himself. To illustrate my viewpoint let me show in numbers what I mean:

Fat Buu: 0.9
SSJ3 GOku: 1
SSJ Gotenks: 1
SSJ3 Gotenks: 8
Super Buu: 7
Ultimate Gohan:12

That's where I see things during this time.

ssj Goku and ssj Vegeta were fighting Basil and Beragom who were both weaker than Fat Buu.

...and completely dominated them. They didn't get hit a single time as SSJs and pushed back the trio prior to the final beam struggle.

Like I said, if Frost could one shot Buu why not have him do it to show off how strong he is and build more hype? And I don't think Frost can compete with Goku and Vegeta, they weren't taking any of the fights seriously until hit. Base Goku made hit bleed. Could Frost do that? Could Frost keep up with Golden Frieza or survive a hakai for as long as Goku did? I think not.

From what we can tell, Goku found it necessary to use SSJ against Freeza Frost. And since Goku's SSJ is far superior to SSG from BoG at this point, Frost dwarfs anything from the Buu saga.(To be clear, I don't believe Frost is SSG BoG level but he appears to be stronger than Base Goku) Which doesn't seem very far-fetched since Frost doesn't seem that much stronger than Freeza was when he showed up on Earth.

That's how I would scale Goku's power ups in the ToP. I have his SSB KKx20 around 1,000 time his ssj, but that's if we use multipliers which I'm not sure if we should.

And I was asking why you consider the gap to be that small. Either way, your numbers still fit Jiren being several hundred to a thousand times stronger than SSJ Goku and yet he got overpowered by him at the end.

Pretty sure the only power statements about SSG were he never felt anything thing like it and how nobody could feel his power, ect. I don't think Goku ever said something along the lines of "wow this is much stronger than fusion could have ever been". It just means that as an SSG he was stronger than ssj Vegito as he felt how strong that was before. He could be stronger than ssj3 Vegito as well, but ssj3 Vegito isn't even really a thing as it never happened.

Didn't you already agree he is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto?

Goku said that he didn't even know that level of power could even exist and he said that fusion wouldn't work(aka SSJ3 Vegetto wouldn't be enough) against King Kai's planet Beerus who is far inferior to the Beerus that fought evenly with SSG Goku. It is crystal clear that SSJ3 Vegetto is inferior to SSG Goku.

It's weird that controlling his ki better would make him as strong as you are saying. If what you are saying is true Vegeta pretty much go the same boost as Frieza did in 4 months as both started off around namek saga Frieza level in base, and both reached above ssj3 level in 4 months.

Well it wouldn't be quite as high as Freeza's but yeah it is an extremely large boost in 6 months. Freeza did still attain a significantly larger boost in 4 months compared to Vegeta's 6. But that was the focus of Whis's training. Both with Vegeta individually and the both of them. Whis said Vegeta was going to surpass Goku even after Goku got the massive boost from the ritual if he learned to control his ki better. It may be "weird" but it is what it is. That is what the story is portraying.

I

never denied Goku got a boost from SSG though. He definitely got some sort of boost, and Vegeta caught up to it in a few months.

Then I have no idea what you are arguing then. It appeared to me you were saying it was a temporary boost and/or it was retconned.

Can you show me a scan proving the form is called saiyan beyond god? Like I said I think there was confusion and Goku and Vegeta themselves were saiyan beyond gods, not their base form, but them themselves as in their full power.

I'd have to find it but yeah the promotional material from the movie described their base forms as being called "Saiyan Beyond God" and it described how it worked.

And no statement in the movie said their base was above god form. And that would make no sense as SSG is 60% Beerus in the movie verse unless RoF retconned that.

Like I said that is what I had recalled but I am not certain. It wouldn't make sense but I was under the impression that was the case anyway.

Tired base Goku didn't just out skill ssj2 Caulifla. He literally clashed with her head on and their fists collided like they were equals.

Then what was the entire exposition that Whis was describing about? How he was winning not because of power but because of his experience/skill. Then Caulifla acclimates to his fighting style and Goku is forced to transform.

Not to mention she should be so much faster Goku's skill shouldn't even matter.
It definitely seems they weren't that far apart in power and speed, but Caulifla did have the edge.

Well maybe it should be the case but it isn't. Based on what Whis was saying and based on the fact that they fought evenly as SSJ2s or in any paticular form, then tired Goku=Caulifla.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I asked this before, but I want to see if your opinions have changed after the end of DBS: All of the Hakaishin vs. All of the participants in the Tournament of Power

[Berserker1921]

I asked this before, but I want to see if your opinions have changed after the end of DBS: All of the Hakaishin vs. All of the participants in the Tournament of Power

The gods slaughter. The only real threats to them are 5, maybe 6 people out of 80. Only 4 of those are GoD level or above. Goku would need to unlock MUI to be relevant. Which the all gods will Hakai and kill before he can unlock it. Even if we go by the rules, 12 gods vs one god isn’t a challenge. They take out Goku, Vegeta, and Toppo with some difficulty. Jiren is the biggest threat, I imagine whomever gods are still conscious. Which I imagine will be at worse 6 of them. 4 face Jiren and the other two finish the other contestants.

[PFM18]

I asked this before, but I want to see if your opinions have changed after the end of DBS: All of the Hakaishin vs. All of the participants in the Tournament of Power

Does Toppo count as a Hakaishin or a ToP participant?