The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[AhmadHendie]

I don't see them giving Beerus a fun fight. Whis even had to intervene and Goku was expecting Monaka to be strong so if he was really only fighting below final form Frost level or base Cabba level that doesn't' really make sense.

Well you have no reason to believe that they couldn't give Beerus a fun fight. If Goku needed to be satisfied with the level of power that Monaka was portrayed as, then he would have needed an opponent he would atleast need SSB for. Instead, he doesn't transform at all. So him fighting at or below Base Cabba or Final Form Frost level makes perfect sense.

But according to you that would still put rusty ssj Gohan above everyone in the Buu saga when that is clearly not supposed to be the case.

Well Goku had been shown to be training atleast somewhat regularly with Piccolo since RoF. Not at the intensity or level that they did prior to the ToP but it still happened. Either way, the best that can be deduced from this scene is SSJ Gohan>Base Goku and that is still a shaky deduction because we don't know how suppressed Goku is.

The day before his ssj2 form was beaten by Piccolo. And during the ToP it seemed to only be a bit above Piccolo and below final form Frieza.

When you say "it" do you mean his Ultimate form? If so, then that is absolutely not the case. Gohan was atleast competing with Toppo and was below Golden Freeza not Final Form Freeza. His power was consistently close to SSB level but not quite there. This is entirely irrespective of what happened the day before.

Didn't it make that fodder character stronger though?

No. The entire premise of the water had nothing to do with a strength increase. It had to do with it literally taking over your body and then making an exact replica with the same power.

Ya with ssj it's SSB, with base it's their powered up base. So it could be base<<<base (perfect ki control)<ssj (50x base)<<<SSB
With that scaling we can have ssj2 Caulifla fighting base Goku and ssj2 Goku making sense as the strength would be much closer, and it also makes sense how base Goku can still have trouble with pre training base Gohan as he is just using his regular base without controlling his ki. It's kind of head canon but it makes sense and Whis did say mastering ki control would make them stronger so that part of it isn't head canon.

Yeah in a way it does make sense, because Whis said that improved ki control would make them stronger. But at the same time, Whis probably didn't know that the way it affected Saiyans would result in a transformation. Because of course, SSG and SSB are a result of God Ki/ki control.

Either way, if Caulifla is even close to the current Base Goku then she MUST be leaps and bounds above Kid Buu. There's an abundance of statements/feats that show Base Goku has surpassed everything from the Buu saga. That's just the way power creep works. Relevant current enemies have to be far stronger than the previous than the previous enemies because the protagonists in the story are constantly getting stronger.

Didn't end of Z Goku struggle with Uub ? If his base was really leaps and bounds above kid buu than Uub would have been stomped by a heavily suppressed Goku. There is no level of suppression that can bring SSG base Goku to kid buu levels.


For me, early in the anime they had SSG as base. But then they retconned it in the ToP arc(when goku Went SSG) and gave Goku and Vegeta Z level bases like the mange.


End of Z is Canon, so a Goku that stomps SSJ3 Gotenks in base would contradict it. EoZ goku is above his Z SSJ3 self, but probably still below SSJ3 Gotenks(Equal to him if we high ball how strong SSJ3 Goku was in Z)

[PFM18]

I don't see them giving Beerus a fun fight. Whis even had to intervene and Goku was expecting Monaka to be strong so if he was really only fighting below final form Frost level or base Cabba level that doesn't' really make sense.

Well you have no reason to believe that they couldn't give Beerus a fun fight. If Goku needed to be satisfied with the level of power that Monaka was portrayed as, then he would have needed an opponent he would atleast need SSB for. Instead, he doesn't transform at all. So him fighting at or below Base Cabba or Final Form Frost level makes perfect sense.

But according to you that would still put rusty ssj Gohan above everyone in the Buu saga when that is clearly not supposed to be the case.

Well Goku had been shown to be training atleast somewhat regularly with Piccolo since RoF. Not at the intensity or level that they did prior to the ToP but it still happened. Either way, the best that can be deduced from this scene is SSJ Gohan>Base Goku and that is still a shaky deduction because we don't know how suppressed Goku is.

The day before his ssj2 form was beaten by Piccolo. And during the ToP it seemed to only be a bit above Piccolo and below final form Frieza.

When you say "it" do you mean his Ultimate form? If so, then that is absolutely not the case. Gohan was atleast competing with Toppo and was below Golden Freeza not Final Form Freeza. His power was consistently close to SSB level but not quite there. This is entirely irrespective of what happened the day before.

Didn't it make that fodder character stronger though?

No. The entire premise of the water had nothing to do with a strength increase. It had to do with it literally taking over your body and then making an exact replica with the same power.

Ya with ssj it's SSB, with base it's their powered up base. So it could be base<<<base (perfect ki control)<ssj (50x base)<<<SSB
With that scaling we can have ssj2 Caulifla fighting base Goku and ssj2 Goku making sense as the strength would be much closer, and it also makes sense how base Goku can still have trouble with pre training base Gohan as he is just using his regular base without controlling his ki. It's kind of head canon but it makes sense and Whis did say mastering ki control would make them stronger so that part of it isn't head canon.

Yeah in a way it does make sense, because Whis said that improved ki control would make them stronger. But at the same time, Whis probably didn't know that the way it affected Saiyans would result in a transformation. Because of course, SSG and SSB are a result of God Ki/ki control.

Either way, if Caulifla is even close to the current Base Goku then she MUST be leaps and bounds above Kid Buu. There's an abundance of statements/feats that show Base Goku has surpassed everything from the Buu saga. That's just the way power creep works. Relevant current enemies have to be far stronger than the previous than the previous enemies because the protagonists in the story are constantly getting stronger.

Didn't end of Z Goku struggle with Uub ? If his base was really leaps and bounds above kid buu than Uub would have been stomped by a heavily suppressed Goku. There is no level of suppression that can bring SSG base Goku to kid buu levels.


For me, early in the anime they had SSG as base. But then they retconned it in the ToP arc(when goku Went SSG) and gave Goku and Vegeta Z level bases like the mange.


End of Z is Canon, so a Goku that stomps SSJ3 Gotenks in base would contradict it. EoZ goku is above his Z SSJ3 self but below SSJ3 Gotenks.

Again, End of Z is contradicted either way because Vegeta, Bulma hadn't seen Goku in several years. They cannot possibly line up that is just the way that it is. Goku being excited about a Buu level character no longer makes sense when he 3 years prior had surpassed Beerus who made a mockery of SSJ3 Goku without even trying.

[AhmadHendie]

Well you have no reason to believe that they couldn't give Beerus a fun fight. If Goku needed to be satisfied with the level of power that Monaka was portrayed as, then he would have needed an opponent he would atleast need SSB for. Instead, he doesn't transform at all. So him fighting at or below Base Cabba or Final Form Frost level makes perfect sense.



Well Goku had been shown to be training atleast somewhat regularly with Piccolo since RoF. Not at the intensity or level that they did prior to the ToP but it still happened. Either way, the best that can be deduced from this scene is SSJ Gohan>Base Goku and that is still a shaky deduction because we don't know how suppressed Goku is.



When you say "it" do you mean his Ultimate form? If so, then that is absolutely not the case. Gohan was atleast competing with Toppo and was below Golden Freeza not Final Form Freeza. His power was consistently close to SSB level but not quite there. This is entirely irrespective of what happened the day before.



No. The entire premise of the water had nothing to do with a strength increase. It had to do with it literally taking over your body and then making an exact replica with the same power.



Yeah in a way it does make sense, because Whis said that improved ki control would make them stronger. But at the same time, Whis probably didn't know that the way it affected Saiyans would result in a transformation. Because of course, SSG and SSB are a result of God Ki/ki control.

Either way, if Caulifla is even close to the current Base Goku then she MUST be leaps and bounds above Kid Buu. There's an abundance of statements/feats that show Base Goku has surpassed everything from the Buu saga. That's just the way power creep works. Relevant current enemies have to be far stronger than the previous than the previous enemies because the protagonists in the story are constantly getting stronger.

Didn't end of Z Goku struggle with Uub ? If his base was really leaps and bounds above kid buu than Uub would have been stomped by a heavily suppressed Goku. There is no level of suppression that can bring SSG base Goku to kid buu levels.


For me, early in the anime they had SSG as base. But then they retconned it in the ToP arc(when goku Went SSG) and gave Goku and Vegeta Z level bases like the mange.


End of Z is Canon, so a Goku that stomps SSJ3 Gotenks in base would contradict it. EoZ goku is above his Z SSJ3 self but below SSJ3 Gotenks.

Again, End of Z is contradicted either way because Vegeta, Bulma hadn't seen Goku in several years. They cannot possibly line up that is just the way that it is. Goku being excited about a Buu level character no longer makes sense when he 3 years prior had surpassed Beerus who made a mockery of SSJ3 Goku without even trying.

There are still 4 years from ToP to end of Z so bulma not seeing him for a while isn't a contradiction. And even so In DBZ world these are "minor" plot holes.

Goku would be excited with a character being as strong as his base form despite being a child. That is defiantly possible.


The manga scaling of Base Goku is the correct one that lines up perfectly with the end of Z.

Why is Goku base so stong in the anime initially ? . Because he absorbed SSG into his base(they weren't even consistent about it, seeing Goku fight with roshi).this inconsistency caused the 2 base theory, while infact they weren't sure whether to retcon saiyan beyound god or not

. Having SSG absorbed into base form and then going SSG on top of that makes zero sense. So for me the second he went SSG in ToP I knew the absorbed SSG form was retconned to line up with the manga. Without God Ki there is no way in hell his base is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.



I firmly belive that Goku Base is a bit above his old Z base(x15) is enough to make his ssj3 equal to Ultimate Gohan(we see ultimate Gohan > SSJ2 Goku when they fought). After those 4 years pass his base would equal his ssj3 Form from Z.

I have SSJ Caulifla at around 1.8x Kid Buu. Base Caulifla would get murdered

This retcon is a welcome change for me. As having a SSG base is the equivalent of having Goku/Vegeta time 24/7 with the rest of the cast being fodder.

[dragon boss z]

SSG IS base goku with godly ki. He was supposed to absorb this form but that was retconned. Just like SSG/SSB/SSBKK being universal or 60% of beerus got retconned as well. So no his base doesn't have God Ki
The only way 17,Gohan and future trunks scaling works for me is if goku DBS Base isn't that strong. For me he is x15 stronger than his base Z, which would put his SSJ3 form equal to SSJ2 F.Trunks(who matched ssj3 goku in manga), Ultimate Gohan, #17.
Unless you want to argue that base DBS Trunks is above Super vegito(like many super fans argue that Base DBS Goku > Super Vegito) and that end Of Z(and by extension Z itself) isn't cannon because it contradicts the BASE DBS Goku > Super Vegito statement. This is the only thing that makes sense to me.
People forget that there is A HARD CAP on base DBS Goku power called end of Z. Uub(whose power is equal to KID buu) wasn't fodder to goku, which puts EoZ Base goku in the realm of kid buu~Z SSJ3 Goku. And base DBS Goku is weaker than that.
By definition DBS Base Goku will always remain weaker than End of Z Goku. And by extension will also remain weaker than even his initial base in GT who is stronger than end of Z Goku.

I agree base Goku doesn't have god ki. The way I see it now is
android 18<Piccolo<base Gohan (post ultimate)<base Goku (regular)<=>good Buu<=>Frost<ssj3 Gotenks<Frieza<=>base Goku (complete ki control)<Buuhan<ssj Goku (50x regular base Goku)<Zamasu<ssj2 Goku<Kale<=>ssj3 Goku<current ultimate Gohan<=>SSG Goku<17<SSB Goku

Well you have no reason to believe that they couldn't give Beerus a fun fight. If Goku needed to be satisfied with the level of power that Monaka was portrayed as, then he would have needed an opponent he would atleast need SSB for. Instead, he doesn't transform at all. So him fighting at or below Base Cabba or Final Form Frost level makes perfect sense.

It doesn't really, and base Cabba or final form Frost shouldn't be able to land a blow on Hit either.

When you say "it" do you mean his Ultimate form? If so, then that is absolutely not the case. Gohan was atleast competing with Toppo and was below Golden Freeza not Final Form Freeza. His power was consistently close to SSB level but not quite there. This is entirely irrespective of what happened the day before.

I meant base Gohan not ultimate.

Either way, if Caulifla is even close to the current Base Goku then she MUST be leaps and bounds above Kid Buu. There's an abundance of statements/feats that show Base Goku has surpassed everything from the Buu saga. That's just the way power creep works. Relevant current enemies have to be far stronger than the previous than the previous enemies because the protagonists in the story are constantly getting stronger.

But the thing is Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, and Tien all had trouble with Frieza soldiers and later are able to fight base Goku so it really doesn't seem power creep is going on, but more of inconsistent writing.

[AhmadHendie]

SSG IS base goku with godly ki. He was supposed to absorb this form but that was retconned. Just like SSG/SSB/SSBKK being universal or 60% of beerus got retconned as well. So no his base doesn't have God Ki
The only way 17,Gohan and future trunks scaling works for me is if goku DBS Base isn't that strong. For me he is x15 stronger than his base Z, which would put his SSJ3 form equal to SSJ2 F.Trunks(who matched ssj3 goku in manga), Ultimate Gohan, #17.
Unless you want to argue that base DBS Trunks is above Super vegito(like many super fans argue that Base DBS Goku > Super Vegito) and that end Of Z(and by extension Z itself) isn't cannon because it contradicts the BASE DBS Goku > Super Vegito statement. This is the only thing that makes sense to me.
People forget that there is A HARD CAP on base DBS Goku power called end of Z. Uub(whose power is equal to KID buu) wasn't fodder to goku, which puts EoZ Base goku in the realm of kid buu~Z SSJ3 Goku. And base DBS Goku is weaker than that.
By definition DBS Base Goku will always remain weaker than End of Z Goku. And by extension will also remain weaker than even his initial base in GT who is stronger than end of Z Goku.

I agree base Goku doesn't have god ki. The way I see it now is
android 18<Piccolo<base Gohan (post ultimate)<base Goku (regular)<=>good Buu<=>Frost<ssj3 Gotenks<Frieza<=>base Goku (complete ki control)<Buuhan<ssj Goku (50x regular base Goku)<Zamasu<ssj2 Goku<Kale<=>ssj3 Goku<current ultimate Gohan<=>SSG Goku<17<SSB Goku

Well you have no reason to believe that they couldn't give Beerus a fun fight. If Goku needed to be satisfied with the level of power that Monaka was portrayed as, then he would have needed an opponent he would atleast need SSB for. Instead, he doesn't transform at all. So him fighting at or below Base Cabba or Final Form Frost level makes perfect sense.

It doesn't really, and base Cabba or final form Frost shouldn't be able to land a blow on Hit either.

When you say "it" do you mean his Ultimate form? If so, then that is absolutely not the case. Gohan was atleast competing with Toppo and was below Golden Freeza not Final Form Freeza. His power was consistently close to SSB level but not quite there. This is entirely irrespective of what happened the day before.

I meant base Gohan not ultimate.

Either way, if Caulifla is even close to the current Base Goku then she MUST be leaps and bounds above Kid Buu. There's an abundance of statements/feats that show Base Goku has surpassed everything from the Buu saga. That's just the way power creep works. Relevant current enemies have to be far stronger than the previous than the previous enemies because the protagonists in the story are constantly getting stronger.

But the thing is Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, and Tien all had trouble with Frieza soldiers and later are able to fight base Goku so it really doesn't seem power creep is going on, but more of inconsistent writing.

I disagree with the 2 base theorys. It would make sense since the anime team wasn't certain wether they should continue with a SSG base or not. In the end they retconned saiyan beyond god to line up with the manga and end of Z.


Perfect Ki control = God Ki
God ki + Base = SSG

Goku is not a God and thus can't use god ki. SSG allows him to use god ki, without the form he can't. If he could have a base with god KI his SSJ1 would have been SSR.

Base black(after he realised base goku potential)= SSG goku. Base black was so strong because he had the strength of god ki in his base. That's why SSJ1(SSR was confirmed as black version of the regular SSJ1,AKA SSJ1 with a native god ki base) Black was comparable to SSGSS Goku, and why black SSR stamina was miles ahead of Goku and vegeta(black doesn't need a form to access god ki)

[dragon boss z]

I disagree with the 2 base theorys. It would make sense since the anime team wasn't certain wether they should continue with a SSG base or not. In the end they retconned saiyan beyond god to line up with the manga and end of Z.
Perfect Ki control = God Ki
God ki + Base = SSG
Goku is not a God and thus can't use god ki. SSG allows him to use god ki, without the form he can't. If he could have a base with god KI his SSJ1 would have been SSR.
Base black(after he realised base goku potential)= SSG goku. Base black was so strong because he had the strength of god ki in his base. That's why SSJ1(SSR was confirmed as black version of the regular SSJ1,AKA SSJ1 with a native god ki base) Black was comparable to SSGSS Goku, and why black SSR stamina was miles ahead of Goku and vegeta(black doesn't need a form to access god ki)

Well my 2 base theory is a bit different. Some people had saiyan beyond god above his ssj3 form, but I don't think that's the case. I just think he can get his base form close to his ssj form, but still definitely weaker than his ssj form. So it's really not 2 base forms, it's just one is the base form pushed to its limit, but still weaker than every ssj form.
Whis said if they kept their ki from leaking they would get stronger, not that they would become gods. Yes, blue aura came out during that training but SSB could be ki controlled ssj while ki controlled base and SSG could be different things.
I mean you could even say it's not different at all and Goku just has his non serious base and when he is actually serious. For example when fighting Frost, after getting beat around a bit he gets up like nothing and said that was a nice warm up. Against Frieza he was dead serious and going all out. So if we ignore a mastered base all together I would say Goku was utilizing more of his power against Frieza than a casual tournament fight with Frost. This is also backed up by Piccolo thinking he had a chance against Frost, but thinking he had no chance against even first form Frieza with ssj Gohan and the others as backup.

[AhmadHendie]

I disagree with the 2 base theorys. It would make sense since the anime team wasn't certain wether they should continue with a SSG base or not. In the end they retconned saiyan beyond god to line up with the manga and end of Z.
Perfect Ki control = God Ki
God ki + Base = SSG
Goku is not a God and thus can't use god ki. SSG allows him to use god ki, without the form he can't. If he could have a base with god KI his SSJ1 would have been SSR.
Base black(after he realised base goku potential)= SSG goku. Base black was so strong because he had the strength of god ki in his base. That's why SSJ1(SSR was confirmed as black version of the regular SSJ1,AKA SSJ1 with a native god ki base) Black was comparable to SSGSS Goku, and why black SSR stamina was miles ahead of Goku and vegeta(black doesn't need a form to access god ki)

Well my 2 base theory is a bit different. Some people had saiyan beyond god above his ssj3 form, but I don't think that's the case. I just think he can get his base form close to his ssj form, but still definitely weaker than his ssj form. So it's really not 2 base forms, it's just one is the base form pushed to its limit, but still weaker than every ssj form.
Whis said if they kept their ki from leaking they would get stronger, not that they would become gods. Yes, blue aura came out during that training but SSB could be ki controlled ssj while ki controlled base and SSG could be different things.
I mean you could even say it's not different at all and Goku just has his non serious base and when he is actually serious. For example when fighting Frost, after getting beat around a bit he gets up like nothing and said that was a nice warm up. Against Frieza he was dead serious and going all out. So if we ignore a mastered base all together I would say Goku was utilizing more of his power against Frieza than a casual tournament fight with Frost. This is also backed up by Piccolo thinking he had a chance against Frost, but thinking he had no chance against even first form Frieza with ssj Gohan and the others as backup.

I can somewhat agree to that. The only red line I have for this form is to not cross end of Z Goku as that would mess the cannon timeline.

The regular Base would be x15 Z base
The serious Base would be x30~150 Z base
EoZ base would be X400

You would need a 1200x boost for SSJ3 Goku to beat Z super vegito . Which would be achieved at the beginning of The baby saga in DBGT.

Personally I am buffing the SSG form and following the manga on scaling base goku at x15 base of his Z base. For me Saiyan beyond god, SSG at 60% beerus, DBS Goku being universal(apart from Goku forms that are above pre LB Jiren) as retconned material.

I still have Golden Frieza a bit above SSB ToP levels. But I consider his base a bit on the weak side.

[dragon boss z]

I can somewhat agree to that. The only red line I have for this form is to not cross end of Z Goku as that would mess the cannon timeline.
The regular Base would be x15 Z base
The serious Base would be x30~150 Z base
EoZ base would be X400

Those numbers look close to what I have.

You would need a 1200x boost for SSJ3 Goku to beat Z super vegito . Which would be achieved at the beginning of The baby saga in DBGT.

I don't think super Vegito is that much stronger than ssj3 Goku and I don't really take GT into consideration when power scaling Super as they don't follow the same continuity.

For me Saiyan beyond god, SSG at 60% beerus, DBS Goku being universal(apart from Goku forms that are above pre LB Jiren) as retconned material.

I agree with this.

I still have Golden Frieza a bit above SSB ToP levels. But I consider his base a bit on the weak side.

It seems to be equal to SSB Goku in the anime and below mastered SSB in the manga. It could still be above regular SSB in the manga though.

[Noah]

New match:

- Burter vs. Jiren (equal power, limited stamina)

[PFM18]

There are still 4 years from ToP to end of Z so bulma not seeing him for a while isn't a contradiction. And even so In DBZ world these are "minor" plot holes.

Well that's incorrect. The ToP is 3 years from the EoZ and Bulma says during EoZ that she hasn't seen him in 5 years. Blatant contradiction. A contradiction is a contradiction you can't arbitrarily decide that one contradiction is fine while another is not.

Goku would be excited with a character being as strong as his base form despite being a child. That is defiantly possible.

Well exactly. Regardless of the level of strength that Goku is at, he would be excited that Uub has so much potential from being the reincarnation of Buu. Even during EoZ it isn't made definitively clear that Uub is as strong as Kid Buu just yet, it is more about the potential he has. Especially given the emphasis placed on potential, it would still make sense for Goku to be excited about Uub, despite Goku's base being thousands of times stronger than Kid Buu in his base by the time the ToP is over.

The manga scaling of Base Goku is the correct one that lines up perfectly with the end of Z.

The manga scaling is not any more "correct" than the anime. They are each their own continuity and both iterations of the story contradict EoZ in multiple ways.

Because he absorbed SSG into his base

Well no. This isn't the case in any real capacity. Goku didn't "absorb" it in that sense either, the verbatim that Beerus used was that he had just "made the power his own" through experiencing it. Also, his Base was never stronger than SSG at any point. BoG establishes very thoroughly that SSJ=SSG and RoF doesn't actually imply that he has surpassed SSG in his Base. The narrator and King Kai comment that Goku had surpassed SSG only when he goes SSB. During RoF, any point prior to that, he had not surpassed SSG, otherwise that dialogue would be redundant and ridiculous.

Having SSG absorbed into base form and then going SSG on top of that makes zero sense.

Well that isn't really entirely what happened anyway. I already explained how "absorbed into base" is incorrect, but Beerus stated that Goku simply "made it his own" in regards to the SSG power, and he was using normal ki. It simply functioned as a power boost and nothing else. Had it actually restricted him from using SSG or changed how his forms worked, then the same would be true of Vegeta who had never done the ritual or "absorbed" the power. It doesn't restrict him from using SSG in any way, SSG is simply reflection of using God Ki. Additionally, the boost he attained from SSG(not from the ritual) during the ToP was clearly much less than that of the ritual. So the premise that he "stacked SSG on top of it" is extremely misleading if not outright wrong.

SSG form was retconned to line up with the manga.

The anime has no interest in lining up with the manga. There's absolutely no indication that they have any intention of doing that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had SSBE and SSBKK without the manga's CSSB form.

Without God Ki there is no way in hell his base is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Goku never had God Ki in base at any point during the DBS anime. He could always be sensed in his base form.

I firmly belive that Goku Base is a bit above his old Z base(x15) is enough to make his ssj3 equal to Ultimate Gohan(we see ultimate Gohan > SSJ2 Goku when they fought). After those 4 years pass his base would equal his ssj3 Form from Z.

I have SSJ Caulifla at around 1.8x Kid Buu. Base Caulifla would get murdered

Despite you "firmly believing" it, none of this is supported in any way.

It doesn't really, and base Cabba or final form Frost shouldn't be able to land a blow on Hit either.

It really does. Cabba was on par with Base Vegeta and Final Form Frost were shown to be on par(if not stronger) and Goku fought Beerus in base immediately following that arc. There's no reason to believe Base Cabba couldn't do the same as Goku did during that time.

But the thing is Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, and Tien all had trouble with Frieza soldiers and later are able to fight base Goku so it really doesn't seem power creep is going on, but more of inconsistent writing.

Not at all. Krillin was only having trouble form the PTSD of Freeza saying he was going to kill him again. Roshi even explained to Krillin why the soldiers were noting to him. The soldiers were absolutely nothing to them until they got tired and that is when they had some difficulty.

[AhmadHendie]

There are still 4 years from ToP to end of Z so bulma not seeing him for a while isn't a contradiction. And even so In DBZ world these are "minor" plot holes.

Well that's incorrect. The ToP is 3 years from the EoZ and Bulma says during EoZ that she hasn't seen him in 5 years. Blatant contradiction. A contradiction is a contradiction you can't arbitrarily decide that one contradiction is fine while another is not.

Goku would be excited with a character being as strong as his base form despite being a child. That is defiantly possible.

Well exactly. Regardless of the level of strength that Goku is at, he would be excited that Uub has so much potential from being the reincarnation of Buu. Even during EoZ it isn't made definitively clear that Uub is as strong as Kid Buu just yet, it is more about the potential he has. Especially given the emphasis placed on potential, it would still make sense for Goku to be excited about Uub, despite Goku's base being thousands of times stronger than Kid Buu in his base by the time the ToP is over.

The manga scaling of Base Goku is the correct one that lines up perfectly with the end of Z.

The manga scaling is not any more "correct" than the anime. They are each their own continuity and both iterations of the story contradict EoZ in multiple ways.

Because he absorbed SSG into his base

Well no. This isn't the case in any real capacity. Goku didn't "absorb" it in that sense either, the verbatim that Beerus used was that he had just "made the power his own" through experiencing it. Also, his Base was never stronger than SSG at any point. BoG establishes very thoroughly that SSJ=SSG and RoF doesn't actually imply that he has surpassed SSG in his Base. The narrator and King Kai comment that Goku had surpassed SSG only when he goes SSB. During RoF, any point prior to that, he had not surpassed SSG, otherwise that dialogue would be redundant and ridiculous.

Having SSG absorbed into base form and then going SSG on top of that makes zero sense.

Well that isn't really entirely what happened anyway. I already explained how "absorbed into base" is incorrect, but Beerus stated that Goku simply "made it his own" in regards to the SSG power, and he was using normal ki. It simply functioned as a power boost and nothing else. Had it actually restricted him from using SSG or changed how his forms worked, then the same would be true of Vegeta who had never done the ritual or "absorbed" the power. It doesn't restrict him from using SSG in any way, SSG is simply reflection of using God Ki. Additionally, the boost he attained from SSG(not from the ritual) during the ToP was clearly much less than that of the ritual. So the premise that he "stacked SSG on top of it" is extremely misleading if not outright wrong.

SSG form was retconned to line up with the manga.

The anime has no interest in lining up with the manga. There's absolutely no indication that they have any intention of doing that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had SSBE and SSBKK without the manga's CSSB form.

Without God Ki there is no way in hell his base is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Goku never had God Ki in base at any point during the DBS anime. He could always be sensed in his base form.

I firmly belive that Goku Base is a bit above his old Z base(x15) is enough to make his ssj3 equal to Ultimate Gohan(we see ultimate Gohan > SSJ2 Goku when they fought). After those 4 years pass his base would equal his ssj3 Form from Z.

I have SSJ Caulifla at around 1.8x Kid Buu. Base Caulifla would get murdered

Despite you "firmly believing" it, none of this is supported in any way.

It doesn't really, and base Cabba or final form Frost shouldn't be able to land a blow on Hit either.

It really does. Cabba was on par with Base Vegeta and Final Form Frost were shown to be on par(if not stronger) and Goku fought Beerus in base immediately following that arc. There's no reason to believe Base Cabba couldn't do the same as Goku did during that time.

But the thing is Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, and Tien all had trouble with Frieza soldiers and later are able to fight base Goku so it really doesn't seem power creep is going on, but more of inconsistent writing.

Not at all. Krillin was only having trouble form the PTSD of Freeza saying he was going to kill him again. Roshi even explained to Krillin why the soldiers were noting to him. The soldiers were absolutely nothing to them until they got tired and that is when they had some difficulty.

Technically it's 3.5 years between ToP and EoZ.

Their are contradictions that can be ignored. Even if super continues until age 783(one year before EoZ) this contradiction isn't sufficent for the EoZ being non cannon.

The manga is scaling him consistently and in line with EoZ. The anime one day scales him as taking out Gotenks like a trash bag, and in another day it makes his fist tingle from fighting roshi and his base equal to Caulifla.

The reason why his base is strong(sometimes) is due to absorbing god essence/his body getting used to SSG. Even if we scale SSG BoG = SSJ1 Goku. That's an absurd boost(and an impossible one to achieve with training alone in such a short time)and having it would make SSJ2 F.Trunks and Ultimate Gohan SSG tier despite not doing any thing to get there.

The manga is more consistent and makes sense with power scaling.

If we take the anime crab seriously, we would have to scale a guy who struggled with dabura to be above super Vegito(Buuhan base × 100).

Without Goku Absorbing God ki he is not going to beat Gotenks in base. He would need to get x1600 at least in base which is not happening without god ki. And unless uub is over 10x stronger than kid buu as a child, he shouldn't be putting up a fight against a base Goku that is above SSJ3 Gotenks.

I refuse to high ball half the cast due to the anime inconsistency or make excuses for them like Goku is holding back. Roshi should never trade blows with a supposedly ~buuhan level character. Even if the buuhan level character is holding back to 1%.

Eoz is Canon in the anime AND manga continuity. So until it's remade Eoz Base goku>= kid buu > base DBS Goku. This is backed by Ultimate Gohan being above SSJ2 Goku in their fight,SSJ2 Trunks matching SSJ2 Goku and roshi fight with Goku. If Goku had a buuhan base he would one shot.

[dragon boss z]

New match:

- Burter vs. Jiren (equal power, limited stamina)

I have to give it to Jiren. Burter is a chump.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

A Hypothetical SSJ4 Kale vs Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Universe Survival Arc).

[AhmadHendie]

A Hypothetical SSJ4 Kale vs Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Universe Survival Arc).

I am assuming Base Kale = Base Cabba = Base Vegeta here


If she goes SSJ4 she gets one shotted.

If she goes LSSJ4 vegeta dies in one punch.

SSJ4 is not that huge of a multiplier.

GT SSJ4 was so strong because GT base Forms were absurd.

[Noah]

I have to give it to Jiren. Burter is a chump.

But the fastest chump in the universe?

[dragon boss z]

I have to give it to Jiren. Burter is a chump.

But the fastest chump in the universe?

Yes, lol. I mean compared to most people he is a beast, but compared to character now he is a chump. Jiren probably had to go through some crazy training to get to where he got, plus he was able to fight ultra instinct Goku, meaning he is extremely skilled.

[Tai Lung]

Kefla Base VS Majuub

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku (Manga, ToP) runs the Boo Arc gauntlet. How far does he get?
~ Round 1: Base form
~ Round 2: SSJ
~ Round 3: SSJ2
~ Round 4: SSJ3

[AhmadHendie]

Kefla Base VS Majuub

Majuub is around above SSJ3 Z Vegito Level in the baby saga. (He is stronger than a SSJ3 Goku who took on a SSJ Ultimate Gohan in his base form easily)

Base kefla on paper gets murdered. She isn't even above Z super vegito in base.

In DBS Manga Kefla would get murdered.

However in the anime. Due to the power of fan service, SSJ2 kefla > SSB Vegito. So she would win even if it doesn't make sense

[AhmadHendie]

Goku (Manga, ToP) runs the Boo Arc gauntlet. How far does he get?
~ Round 1: Base form
~ Round 2: SSJ
~ Round 3: SSJ2
~ Round 4: SSJ3

Losses to almost anyone in base.

Losses at every transformation to buuhan.

Beats kid buu/Fat buu in SSJ2.

Beats Super buu in SSJ3 easily.

SSJ3 Goku = Ultimate Gohan