"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

Ultimate Gohan was vaguely in the God ballpark in the animated version anyway (and I stress vaguely, because anime version). If this is the opponent Gohan double rings-out with I don't see a problem with Kafla being stronger than Blue but still losing.

This. Kale/Kefla may or may not be stronger than Blue, and I'm inclined to say that she is at peak strength, but it doesn't actually matter -- Gohan got Goku to resort to Kaioken against him and was fighting alongside (as well as against) characters in the same tier in the anime. He doesn't perform nearly as well against Toppo later on, but you can chalk that up to physical exhaustion or the anime just being inconsistent as usual.

Vados: Kefla is the strongest fighter
Fans: Kefla's like SS2 Tier

[Omniboy]

Gohan being stronger than Kefla only works if...

1. Vados is an idiot. I mean legitimately unintelligent. How could she wrongly assess that a SS3 Tier fighter is stronger than Hit?

2. Dyspo is super weak. Dyspo is stated to be in the top 3 pride troopers, but I guess he's way weaker than Gohan.

3. A super saiyan tier fighter got a lucky hit on 4 different Blue tier fighters.

4. Kale got close to no boost from her Super Saiyan power up. She's already stronger than most of the Super Saiyan fighters in her base, so she must have gotten a negligible power up when she transformed, and having pained expressions on his face.

Gallery: The faces of fighters thousands of times stronger than Kale.

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Those don't really mean much considering we already saw a surpressed Beerus being overpowered by a super saiyan 2 Vegeta, someone is far weaker than him.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Vegeta and Toppo were just trying to get up, until Kale came out of nowhere and hit them.
Keeping that Jiren also had to leave because of an invisible fighter that was knocking out other fighters far stronger him because he surprised them. And yes freeza was holding back. Cauilfla's blast could have actually hurt him had he got hit with it, if that tells you anything about how much he was holding back.

[Bergamo]

Gohan being stronger than Kefla only works if...

1. Vados is an idiot. I mean legitimately unintelligent. How could she wrongly assess that a SS3 Tier fighter is stronger than Hit?

2. Dyspo is super weak. Dyspo is stated to be in the top 3 pride troopers, but I guess he's way weaker than Gohan.

3. A super saiyan tier fighter got a lucky hit on 4 different Blue tier fighters.

4. Kale got close to no boost from her Super Saiyan power up. She's already stronger than most of the Super Saiyan fighters in her base, so she must have gotten a negligible power up when she transformed, and having pained expressions on his face.

Gallery: The faces of fighters thousands of times stronger than Kale.

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Those don't really mean much considering we already saw a surpressed Beerus being overpowered by a super saiyan 2 Vegeta, someone is far weaker than him.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Vegeta and Toppo were just trying to get up, until Kale came out of nowhere and hit them.
Keeping that Jiren also had to leave because of an invisible fighter that was knocking out other fighters far stronger him because he surprised them. And yes freeza was holding back. Cauilfla's blast could have actually hurt him had he got hit with it, if that tells you anything about how much he was holding back.

If Goku was suppressed, then he wouldn't be in Blue. Blue continuously outputs 100% power, but it is taxing on the body. If Goku was going to suppress himself against Kale, then why didn't he just use SS2?

[Lord Beerus]

As much as I would like Gohan to perform well against Kefla, it's just not gonna happen. SSJ Kale is as strong, if not stronger, than the like of Golden Freeza, Toppo and SSJB Goku, now that power is magnified by Caulifla's max strength and by the fact that Kefla is a SSJ right out of the gate.

Gohan's Ultimate form is gonna need to be above SSJB tier to have any chance of just landing a hit on her. But of course, this would make you wonder why Gohan is fighting Kefla instead of fighting Jiren; if Gohan does turn out to be as strong, if not stronger, than Goku at his max (SSJB).

[ekrolo2]

As much as I would like Gohan to perform well against Kefla, it's just not gonna happen. SSJ Kale is as strong, if not stronger, than the like of Golden Freeza, Toppo and SSJB Goku, now that power is magnified by Caulifla's max strength and by the fact that Kefla is a SSJ right out of the gate.

Gohan's Ultimate form is gonna need to be above SSJB tier to have any chance of just landing a hit on her. But of course, this would make you wonder why Gohan is fighting Kefla instead of fighting Jiren; if Gohan does turn out to be as strong, if not stronger, than Goku at his max (SSJB).

Gohan's gonna channel his anger, attaining Ultimate Ikari to take on Kefla.

[Omniboy]

If Goku was suppressed, then he wouldn't be in Blue. Blue continuously outputs 100% power, but it is taxing on the body. If Goku was going to suppress himself against Kale, then why didn't he just use SS2?

Well considering that now he is able to go blue multiple times throughout this arc, I would say that he overcame that weakness to some extent. As to why he didn't go super saiyan 2, she is probably stronger than that, and Toriyama perhaps wanted it considering that Goku also fights her in his blue form in the anime. So it was probably part of the outline.

I'm not saying that Kale is weak. She may be as strong as Ultimate Gohan in the buu saga for all I know, or even stronger. I'm just saying that she is not God tier.

[Bergamo]

If Goku was suppressed, then he wouldn't be in Blue. Blue continuously outputs 100% power, but it is taxing on the body. If Goku was going to suppress himself against Kale, then why didn't he just use SS2?

Well considering that now he is able to go blue multiple times throughout this arc, I would say that he overcame that weakness to some extent. As to why he didn't go super saiyan 2, she is probably stronger than that, and Toriyama perhaps wanted it consider that Goku also fights her in his blue form in the anime. So it was probably part of the outline.

I'm not saying that Kale is weak. She may be as strong as Ultimate Gohan in the buu saga for all I know, or even stronger. I'm just saying that she is not God tier.

Goku goes SSB multiple times because he can't stay in it very long. Rather than stay in the form and waste stamina, he turns it off when he stops fighting. You can see Cabbe do the same thing with SS1, which is probably because he hasn't mastered SS1.

[Omniboy]

Goku goes SSB multiple times because he can't stay in it very long. Rather than stay in the form and waste stamina, he turns it off when he stops fighting. You can see Cabbe do the same thing with SS1, which is probably because he hasn't mastered SS1.

Fair enough I guess. I'm not completely sure about how the mechanics of blue work. Still, I feel this happened because Toriyama himself wanted it. But I have no proof.

[Marlowe89]

But of course, this would make you wonder why Gohan is fighting Kefla instead of fighting Jiren; if Gohan does turn out to be as strong, if not stronger, than Goku at his max (SSJB).

That should be a given. Goku is the one who wants to fight Jiren, not Gohan, and it would be somewhat out-of-character for the latter to knowingly compromise his dad's wishes in a tournament setting regardless of the stakes involved. I don't see him fighting Jiren unless he absolutely has to, and he doesn't have to at the moment.

[Rakurai]

CSSB Vegeta when he rushed Toppo:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kale when she rushed both CSSB Vegeta and Toppo:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

If Kefla is at least as powerful as a non-fatigued LSSJ Kale, then she should be well above CSSB Goku/Vegeta. Keep in mind that Potaras can make the fusion overall weaker than one of the fusees if the other is significantly weaker (Goku implied that fusing with Satan would make him weaker).

It'll be very interesting to see how Gohan handles Kefla, because depending on how it goes his gains could very well be as significant as that of his anime counterpart.

[Lord Beerus]

As much as I would like Gohan to perform well against Kefla, it's just not gonna happen. SSJ Kale is as strong, if not stronger, than the like of Golden Freeza, Toppo and SSJB Goku, now that power is magnified by Caulifla's max strength and by the fact that Kefla is a SSJ right out of the gate.

Gohan's Ultimate form is gonna need to be above SSJB tier to have any chance of just landing a hit on her. But of course, this would make you wonder why Gohan is fighting Kefla instead of fighting Jiren; if Gohan does turn out to be as strong, if not stronger, than Goku at his max (SSJB).

Gohan's gonna channel his anger, attaining Ultimate Ikari to take on Kefla.

Real talk... I'd LOVE to see that happen. Just purely to see the fandom meltdown over it.

[ankokudaishogun]

Goku implied that fusing with Satan would make him weaker).

Goku had no knowledge whatsoever of how Potara work. If anything, he might have based it on how the Fusion Dance works, but that knowledge doesn't apply to Potara

[TKA]

Gohan being stronger than Kefla only works if...

1. Vados is an idiot. I mean legitimately unintelligent. How could she wrongly assess that a SS3 Tier fighter is stronger than Hit?

2. Dyspo is super weak. Dyspo is stated to be in the top 3 pride troopers, but I guess he's way weaker than Gohan.

3. A super saiyan tier fighter got a lucky hit on 4 different Blue tier fighters.

4. Kale got close to no boost from her Super Saiyan power up. She's already stronger than most of the Super Saiyan fighters in her base, so she must have gotten a negligible power up when she transformed.

All you did there was pull a bunch of pages out of context. I clearly explained what happened since I went back and read the chapter to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything.

Kale managed to get one punch through after trying to hit Goku multiples times, which is when Frieza intervened, like I said.

Also, you ignore what Vados said. "It seems this led to the formation of someone who may be the ultimate warrior—combining Kale's strength with Caulifla's sense for battle." It's not just a power level thing she's talking about here. Kale's power with Caulifla's brains, essentially, together make a package greater than both of them individually. That's her point.

Yes, those were all lucky hits. Vegeta and Toppo were literally fighting each other when she interrupted their fight. Vegeta even has a look like "what just happened?" when she slams into him. He isn't injured, he isn't scratched. He's just annoyed by it. Kale isn't even a threat enough for him to want to fight her. As for Goku and Frieza, we legit know she caught Frieza offguard since he wasn't taking them seriously. Goku she ALMOST got a shot in on after he blocked and dodged all of her attacks.

Finally, my point is Gohan being a match for her, or better than her, isn't inconsistent with the powerscaling. It isn't an asspull. If anything, it just shows how much Gohan has progressed since Resurrection F, which should be the whole point of strength discussions in the first place for a series like this.

[1345521]

Gohan being stronger than Kefla only works if...

1. Vados is an idiot. I mean legitimately unintelligent. How could she wrongly assess that a SS3 Tier fighter is stronger than Hit?

2. Dyspo is super weak. Dyspo is stated to be in the top 3 pride troopers, but I guess he's way weaker than Gohan.

3. A super saiyan tier fighter got a lucky hit on 4 different Blue tier fighters.

4. Kale got close to no boost from her Super Saiyan power up. She's already stronger than most of the Super Saiyan fighters in her base, so she must have gotten a negligible power up when she transformed.

All you did there was pull a bunch of pages out of context. I clearly explained what happened since I went back and read the chapter to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything.

Kale managed to get one punch through after trying to hit Goku multiples times, which is when Frieza intervened, like I said.

Also, you ignore what Vados said. "It seems this led to the formation of someone who may be the ultimate warrior—combining Kale's strength with Caulifla's sense for battle." It's not just a power level thing she's talking about here. Kale's power with Caulifla's brains, essentially, together make a package greater than both of them individually. That's her point.

Yes, those were all lucky hits. Vegeta and Toppo were literally fighting each other when she interrupted their fight. Vegeta even has a look like "what just happened?" when she slams into him. He isn't injured, he isn't scratched. He's just annoyed by it. Kale isn't even a threat enough for him to want to fight her. As for Goku and Frieza, we legit know she caught Frieza offguard since he wasn't taking them seriously. Goku she ALMOST got a shot in on after he blocked and dodged all of her attacks.

Finally, my point is Gohan being a match for her, or better than her, isn't inconsistent with the powerscaling. It isn't an asspull. If anything, it just shows how much Gohan has progressed since Resurrection F, which should be the whole point of strength discussions in the first place for a series like this.

My dude bergamo is right.
kale is at LEAST mssj blue tier.
Kefla>>>mssj blue goku and merged zamsu.

Infering ssj cualfia = kai zamsu
kale>>>>rose black>>> normal ssj blue.
in order to have kefla >>>>>mssj blue.

Gohan being ssj god tier will already be a strehtch, him not only surpassing god tier, but JUMPING over blue tier to reach SSJ BLUE completed TIER or MAYBE EVEN STRONGER...? Cmon. that's nonsense.

[LimitbreakerKrillin]

Kale is atleast above SSJ2 level but below SSB
And Kefla's Power level is above Kale.

As Omniboy showed us SSJ2 Rage Vegeta managed to land some pretty good hits on Beerus and fling him pretty far. But it didnt mean anything as Beerus was still miles ahead of Vegeta in power. And this happens in the manga, anime and the BoG movie.

[Noah]

I have no doubt Gohan will wreck Kefla on the next chapter, would he be so stupid to challenge an opponent knowing he's weaker? He got something up his sleeve, that might help him to decide this battle easier.

This was a bit of art released from the Jump Victory Carnival.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Nice, so we can finally burry this theory that "Omen" is anime exclusive.

[Rakurai]

Goku implied that fusing with Satan would make him weaker).

Goku had no knowledge whatsoever of how Potara work. If anything, he might have based it on how the Fusion Dance works, but that knowledge doesn't apply to Potara

Goku's thoughts are the narrative of the story at the time of Z. If Toriyama had him say those things, then it is likely true.

Unless Super retcons this statement somehow, then it is assumed to be true.

Elder Kai is far more knowledgeable than Goku. He said that Goku & Vegeta being rivals made Vegetto even stronger than usual. He also said they would be fused forever. Thanks to Super, we now know the latter was totally BS. However, I don't see any other reason to distrust the former. I don't see people dismissing it either.

Vados claimed that Kefla combined Kale's strength with Caulifla's battle sense. Which implies that Kefla is not any stronger than Kale herself. For all we know, Kefla's max power may simply be Kale's max power because Caulifla's power isn't enough to warrant a noticeable increase.

[Rakurai]

Yes, those were all lucky hits. Vegeta and Toppo were literally fighting each other when she interrupted their fight. Vegeta even has a look like "what just happened?" when she slams into him. He isn't injured, he isn't scratched. He's just annoyed by it. Kale isn't even a threat enough for him to want to fight her. As for Goku and Frieza, we legit know she caught Frieza offguard since he wasn't taking them seriously. Goku she ALMOST got a shot in on after he blocked and dodged all of her attacks.

Finally, my point is Gohan being a match for her, or better than her, isn't inconsistent with the powerscaling. It isn't an asspull. If anything, it just shows how much Gohan has progressed since Resurrection F, which should be the whole point of strength discussions in the first place for a series like this.

Non-fatigued SSJ Kale is at least CSSB tier. Her peak was clearly above CSSB given Goku couldn't shake her off the second time. Toyo is too consistent with powerscaling to make us think those were "lucky" hits. Her power is also justified by the fact that she's the legendary demon Saiyan of her universe.

Vegeta realized she wasn't a threat after she lost a lot of power. To the point where the Pride Troopers were even able to damage her.

[LightBing]

If I had any photoshop skills I would edit all the shocked faces Kale's opponent made, just to exemplify how most of what she did was based on a surprise factor.
She didn't even hit Goku, Toppo or Vegeta directly! Freeza was chilling after getting beat up, he wasn't worried or mad. We can actually see the difference when he does loses his temper at Goku, if Kale posed a threat that would be the reaction!

Now if you tell me, Goku decided to turn Blue to defend against Kale. Yup, that's a good argument. That's a direct power relation given by the author, Goku was SSJ and decided to go Blue to confront her. Fair to say she's at least above SSJG Goku.

Now about Kefla, I think Vados says it all. Sure her statement might be referring to more than just power but it's pretty direct. Gohan shouldn't be able to do anything against her unless his training was amazing and/or Kefla is affected or will be affected by Kale's weakness.

[batistabus]

Yes, those were all lucky hits. Vegeta and Toppo were literally fighting each other when she interrupted their fight. Vegeta even has a look like "what just happened?" when she slams into him. He isn't injured, he isn't scratched. He's just annoyed by it. Kale isn't even a threat enough for him to want to fight her. As for Goku and Frieza, we legit know she caught Frieza offguard since he wasn't taking them seriously. Goku she ALMOST got a shot in on after he blocked and dodged all of her attacks.

I agree with all of this, but I just want to add something. Let's not forget that Kale is going berserk. She is going all-out with every hit, so individual punches are going to have a lot more impact than they normally would. It's very similar to what happened with Frost. In addition to that, her power is growing at an alarming rate. While Goku and Freeza aren't caught off-guard in the traditional sense (they know they're in the middle of battle), they don't expect Kale to be so much stronger than she was just a moment before. Even when Kale gets solid hits on god-level characters, Freeza was the only one unable to block. Even then, Freeza seems confident in his ability to defeat her.

If you're looking to put Legendary Super Saiyan Kale into a tier list, and you're inclined to do that based on the peak of her strength, you'd be misleading yourself. It'd be like putting Trunks' muscular form on the same level as (or above) perfect Cell. In both scenarios, the story tells you that's not the case. She is a "glass cannon" in the sense that her damage output far outweighs all other qualities.

When characters fight, it's not simply a matter of A > B > C > D, especially in a battle royale. Just because one character can land a punch on another, that doesn't mean they're automatically in the same league. Here's a panel from Hunter x Hunter that explains it well:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Somewhat related, somewhat not, here's my manga tier list based on what we've seen so far. It doesn't address very specific weaknesses (Magetta, Ribrianne), and obviously doesn't account for situations presented in a battle royale setting.

[spoiler]SS Tier:
1. Jiren

S Tier:
1. Goku
2. Hit
3. Vegeta
4. Toppo
5. Freeza

A Tier:
1. Kafla
2. Gohan (apparently)

----Goku's Super Saiyan God (Battle of Gods)-------

B Tier:
1. Kale
2. No. 17
3. Magetta?? (could be as high as A, could be as low as C)

C Tier:
1. Dyspo
2. Aniliza

D Tier:
1. Califla
2. Cabba
3. Frost
4. Piccolo
5. No. 18
6. Ribrianne

...and then everyone else. I omitted the Universe 6 Namekians because their backstory from the anime is never stated in the manga. As far as we know, they're just regular Namekians.[/spoiler]