"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[MoscoSama]

Actually the more I think about it, the more i think Toyotaro will use Gohan, Roshi and Kahseral as sacrificial lambs for Kefla to hype her up in that she will beat them all in 1 or 2 hits.

With the drawing of UI Sign that I posted in here, it seems all but assured that we will see that form in the manga and I think we will see goku use it to beat kefla.

[TKA]

Oh no, I'm not trying to put together a tier list or any such nonsense.

Dragonball is a story about characters training and getting stronger through ordeal. Their strength is no different from a lion with years of battle-scars. It shows what they've been through and how they've changed. That's why I talk about power levels and take them seriously—not for "who has the bigger number," but to emphasize how much these characters have developed and grown.

I'm merely addressing complaints I foresee next chapter when Gohan is putting up a fight or winning. Do I think Gohan is stronger than Kafla? No. Do I think he's stronger than Kale? Also no. But that's coming to a conclusion due to the way stories are structured; a lot of emphasis was placed on Kale's power, for example, so it'd be weird for her to be below so many people, even though that's what was depicted on-page. However, if you look at just the evidence of what's on the pages, there's a reasonable argument that can be made that he is stronger.

[prince212]

Actually the more I think about it, the more i think Toyotaro will use Gohan, Roshi and Kahseral as sacrificial lambs for Kefla to hype her up in that she will beat them all in 1 or 2 hits.

With the drawing of UI Sign that I posted in here, it seems all but assured that we will see that form in the manga and I think we will see goku use it to beat kefla.

If goku has to come to beat kefla , I’ll be disappointed, I will rather gohan team playing , sacrificing himself or whatever in order to ring out kefla , after last chapter ending I can’t see another Jiren vs goku interruption without goku taking any damage . Looks clear that gohan is not as strong to beat that fusion by himself.. we will see .
In case gohan and co. Can’t beat kefla , I’d be better that Jiren ring her out after making goku kiss the ground

[Marlowe89]

While Goku and Freeza aren't caught off-guard in the traditional sense (they know they're in the middle of battle), they don't expect Kale to be so much stronger than she was just a moment before.

Funnily enough, this also happens in the anime: Goku transforms into Blue and fires a Kamehameha at Kale, she effortlessly walks through it and then ragdolls him away from the immediate vicinity. It's not so much that she was necessarily stronger than Goku in that instance, either; her power was instead briefly underestimated by him, with her actual controlled strength later demonstrated to be a bit below Super Saiyan God's.

The difference is that the manga, quite frankly, does a better job of explaining how Kale's strength integrates into the dynamics of the match. You don't have to extrapolate based on inferred comparisons between two different fights because it's all right there in Vegeta's dialogue, and there's much less confusion as a result.

[TKA]

I'd say that's muddier since they had Goku attacking and it did nothing. In the manga, all he was doing was defending while he tried to figure out what she was about.

[batistabus]

Another way that Gohan could beat Kafla, even if he a bit weaker, is just by outlasting her. Even though Super Kafla is much weaker than Blue Vegetto, she could still defuse quickly. Califla and Kale merged while Super Saiyan, which the Elder Kaioshin said was a big no-no.

[LightBing]

Another way that Gohan could beat Kafla, even if he a bit weaker, is just by outlasting her. Even though Super Kafla is much weaker than Blue Vegetto, she could still defuse quickly. Califla and Kale merged while Super Saiyan, which the Elder Kaioshin said was a big no-no.

Didn't remember that line, Toyotarõ is someone who would certainly remember such a detail. I wouldn't mind Gohan winning on technicalities but I just don't see Freeza being ignored or occupied with Dyspo and the Sargent dude.

He certainly wants to finish the job he started against Saiyans. If he doesn't that's would be out-of-character bar circumstances. It's the perfect opportunity to give highlight fight's to the big three:
Goku vs Jiren
Vegeta vs Toppo
Freeza vs Kefla

[Rakurai]

Yes, those were all lucky hits. Vegeta and Toppo were literally fighting each other when she interrupted their fight. Vegeta even has a look like "what just happened?" when she slams into him. He isn't injured, he isn't scratched. He's just annoyed by it. Kale isn't even a threat enough for him to want to fight her. As for Goku and Frieza, we legit know she caught Frieza offguard since he wasn't taking them seriously. Goku she ALMOST got a shot in on after he blocked and dodged all of her attacks.

I agree with all of this, but I just want to add something. Let's not forget that Kale is going berserk. She is going all-out with every hit, so individual punches are going to have a lot more impact than they normally would. It's very similar to what happened with Frost. In addition to that, her power is growing at an alarming rate. While Goku and Freeza aren't caught off-guard in the traditional sense (they know they're in the middle of battle), they don't expect Kale to be so much stronger than she was just a moment before. Even when Kale gets solid hits on god-level characters, Freeza was the only one unable to block. Even then, Freeza seems confident in his ability to defeat her.

If you're looking to put Legendary Super Saiyan Kale into a tier list, and you're inclined to do that based on the peak of her strength, you'd be misleading yourself. It'd be like putting Trunks' muscular form on the same level as (or above) perfect Cell. In both scenarios, the story tells you that's not the case. She is a "glass cannon" in the sense that her damage output far outweighs all other qualities.

When characters fight, it's not simply a matter of A > B > C > D, especially in a battle royale. Just because one character can land a punch on another, that doesn't mean they're automatically in the same league. Here's a panel from Hunter x Hunter that explains it well:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Somewhat related, somewhat not, here's my manga tier list based on what we've seen so far. It doesn't address very specific weaknesses (Magetta, Ribrianne), and obviously doesn't account for situations presented in a battle royale setting.

[spoiler]SS Tier:
1. Jiren

S Tier:
1. Goku
2. Hit
3. Vegeta
4. Toppo
5. Freeza

A Tier:
1. Kafla
2. Gohan (apparently)

----Goku's Super Saiyan God (Battle of Gods)-------

B Tier:
1. Kale
2. No. 17
3. Magetta?? (could be as high as A, could be as low as C)

C Tier:
1. Dyspo
2. Aniliza

D Tier:
1. Califla
2. Cabba
3. Frost
4. Piccolo
5. No. 18
6. Ribrianne

...and then everyone else. I omitted the Universe 6 Namekians because their backstory from the anime is never stated in the manga. As far as we know, they're just regular Namekians.[/spoiler]

Kale's weakness is no different than regular SSB's stamina weakness. The drain is apparent because it's literally her first time going all-out. But assuming she's able to contain all that power and regulate it, she can fight longer at her peak.

Vegeta and Black showed the same issues before as well. But we know where they stand in terms of power and how to categorize them.

Based on your tier list and logic, you might as well put Future arc SSB Goku/Vegeta and Black in the C tier or less.

[Miracles]

Vados: Kefla is the strongest fighter
Fans: Kefla's like SS2 Tier

Isn't it hilarious. Wasn't Super Saiyan Goku completely helpless against Dyspo? Kale just clobbers Dyspo

Now we know Kale is Blue tier and possibly more since she was manhandling Golden Freeza and even punked Blue Goku a bit BEFORE her ki raised again.
The fact that Golden Freeza had to get serious to tango is even more proof Kale is in Blue league.

There can be no way Gohan handle's Kefla by himself. Other than tapping into his rage boost giving him a shot.
Gohan had to use full power to even try to erase Universe 9 while Kefla pretty much owned the pride troopers from strongest universe.

[prince212]

Another way that Gohan could beat Kafla, even if he a bit weaker, is just by outlasting her. Even though Super Kafla is much weaker than Blue Vegetto, she could still defuse quickly. Califla and Kale merged while Super Saiyan, which the Elder Kaioshin said was a big no-no.

That’s another possibility...goku-vegeta potara fusion on future trunks arc lasted half a chapter or less ..
rules on those fusions are not clear .But honestly another defuse will be kind of repetitive .
I won’t be surprise if kefla is out somehow fast n furiously or just placed for later ....3 chapters in a row for those saiyans girls is kinda too much ( they are cool , don’t get me wrong ) , but this is a battle royale and will be good to see different actors

[Bergamo]

Another way that Gohan could beat Kafla, even if he a bit weaker, is just by outlasting her. Even though Super Kafla is much weaker than Blue Vegetto, she could still defuse quickly. Califla and Kale merged while Super Saiyan, which the Elder Kaioshin said was a big no-no.

That’s another possibility...goku-vegeta potara fusion on future trunks arc lasted half a chapter or less ..
rules on those fusions are not clear .But honestly another defuse will be kind of repetitive .
I won’t be surprise if kefla is out somehow fast n furiously or just placed for later ....3 chapters in a row for those saiyans girls is kinda too much ( they are cool , don’t get me wrong ) , but this is a battle royale and will be good to see different actors

I get that 3 chapters is a lot, but worst case scenario is if we cut to someone else and then we see Gohan and Kefla punching each other in the background. It was shallow when they did it with Goku and Jiren, and it will be shallow if they do it with Gohan and Kefla.

[Aizamasu]

Kale probably was blue tier at full power but she was nowhere near blue tier when she fused with Caulifla. So I don't think Kefla is as powerful as some think. Gohan who has been training at least from the Black arc has a good chance to hold his own against her especially if Gohan has some sort of strategy.

[prince212]

Another way that Gohan could beat Kafla, even if he a bit weaker, is just by outlasting her. Even though Super Kafla is much weaker than Blue Vegetto, she could still defuse quickly. Califla and Kale merged while Super Saiyan, which the Elder Kaioshin said was a big no-no.

That’s another possibility...goku-vegeta potara fusion on future trunks arc lasted half a chapter or less ..
rules on those fusions are not clear .But honestly another defuse will be kind of repetitive .
I won’t be surprise if kefla is out somehow fast n furiously or just placed for later ....3 chapters in a row for those saiyans girls is kinda too much ( they are cool , don’t get me wrong ) , but this is a battle royale and will be good to see different actors

I get that 3 chapters is a lot, but worst case scenario is if we cut to someone else and then we see Gohan and Kefla punching each other in the background. It was shallow when they did it with Goku and Jiren, and it will be shallow if they do it with Gohan and Kefla.

Well chapter 36 started with 2 pages of Jiren vs goku after hit elimination and the transition to other fights seemed natural to me being in a battle royale , the hardest part was when we get to see them again later on the chapter and Jiren retreat because of the invisible fighter ...
we just have 11 or 12 fighters remaining so , it shouldn’t be hard to show all of them fighting and .. i guess it should be gohans chapter for good or for bad taking kefla out of the scene using some help , u7 has the upper hand concerning number of fighters, 1 vs 1 doesn’t have sense .. only for goku and vegeta
If it’s true that there’s 4-5 chapters remaining ..
39 gohan-Roshi-kefla -dyspo -kahseral out
40 vegeta - toppo
41 final battle
42 final battle ..
I just say those names assuming that the final 4 fighters are the same as the anime .. but I have my hopes in something else

[1345521]

GUYS, I JUST NOTICED SOMETHING. Look at all the chapters toyotaro tells the time of the ring left. After dbs manga 34 it's 43 minutes remaining, then after 36 (two chapters$ there's only 33 minutes. Every manga chapter goes by 5 minutes it seem. So right now it can be reasoned that WE ARE ONLY AT THE HALF WAY POINNT OF THE TOURNMENT OF POWER. Hahahahah. Logistically, about 23 minutes remain (I'd say 24 for better narrative purpose). We only half way in the tourney. Amazing. So there's a chance we could have 5 more chapters of the ToP before it's concluded. Though if we assume toyotaro starts the broly arc in December, then we still got 4. 1 chapter has to be UI vs Jiren. so I think that gets started on chapter 40 or 41. Toytaro has time to finish this ToP without it seeming rushed. He may just go hams on these next chapters. I can't wait!

[dragon boss z]

GUYS, I JUST NOTICED SOMETHING. Look at all the chapters toyotaro tells the time of the ring left. After dbs manga 34 it's 43 minutes remaining, then after 36 (two chapters$ there's only 33 minutes. Every manga chapter goes by 5 minutes it seem. So right now it can be reasoned that WE ARE ONLY AT THE HALF WAY POINNT OF THE TOURNMENT OF POWER. Hahahahah. Logistically, about 23 minutes remain (I'd say 24 for better narrative purpose). We only half way in the tourney. Amazing. So there's a chance we could have 5 more chapters of the ToP before it's concluded. Though if we assume toyotaro starts the broly arc in December, then we still got 4. 1 chapter has to be UI vs Jiren. so I think that gets started on chapter 40 or 41. Toytaro has time to finish this ToP without it seeming rushed. He may just go hams on these next chapters. I can't wait!

I'm guessing it will go something like this
ch 39: Mostly about Kefla vs Gohan with both of them endling up eliminated, and maybe Roshi/Kahseral get eliminated
ch 40: Dyspo vs Frieza and Toppo Vegeta. Dyspo will get eliminated and maybe Toppo.
ch 41: If Toppo isn't eliminated by now he gets eliminated here, everyone is fighting Jiren.
ch 42: Everyone goes down except Goku, this is where I think he will go UI and fight Jiren.
ch 43: Goku loses UI and Frieza and Goku take Jiren down and then everything wraps up.

[IM21]

GUYS, I JUST NOTICED SOMETHING. Look at all the chapters toyotaro tells the time of the ring left. After dbs manga 34 it's 43 minutes remaining, then after 36 (two chapters$ there's only 33 minutes. Every manga chapter goes by 5 minutes it seem. So right now it can be reasoned that WE ARE ONLY AT THE HALF WAY POINNT OF THE TOURNMENT OF POWER. Hahahahah. Logistically, about 23 minutes remain (I'd say 24 for better narrative purpose). We only half way in the tourney. Amazing. So there's a chance we could have 5 more chapters of the ToP before it's concluded. Though if we assume toyotaro starts the broly arc in December, then we still got 4. 1 chapter has to be UI vs Jiren. so I think that gets started on chapter 40 or 41. Toytaro has time to finish this ToP without it seeming rushed. He may just go hams on these next chapters. I can't wait!

Yea, the TOP will most likely last till December. Now idk if the last chapter of it will be in December, or the Broly stuff will already begin then but Toyo has 4 or 5 chapters left.

The next chapter will probably mostly be Gohan vs Kefla and I think that she will defuse and they all 3 will get eliminated. Wouldn't surprise me if Frieza somehow eliminates all 3 of them. Most logical opponent for Roshi is Kahseral but Mafuba is kinda a technique I expect him to use on someone else. The only sure thing is that Vegeta will continue to fight Toppo and Goku will fight Jiren. 17 and perhaps Frieza will fight Dyspo and when he gets eliminated they'll help Goku with Jiren. I think there is no way that all of U7 fighters will be here until the final fight with Jiren. It would be cool to see Jiren vs all 6 of them, but I don't think so. I wouldn't be surprised if 17 is not the last man standing. It would be funny if it's Roshi.

[BlueBasilisk]

I wonder if Toyotaro's under editorial pressure to wrap things up by December in order to cross-promote the movie stuff?

[Lord Beerus]

I wonder if Toyotaro's under editorial pressure to wrap things up by December in order to cross-promote the movie stuff?

I talked about this in another thread, and I'm certain he got a few whispers in the ear from some of the heads at Shueisha to wrap up the Tournament Of Power before December.

[OLKv3]

I just want this dumb arc to end. Way more interested in the movie plotline right now

[Marlowe89]

The Universe 6 Saiyans' involvement in this tournament alone started its focus throughout the last chapter with Cabba and Kale feeling pressured to help Caulifla, continued throughout this chapter with Kale going on a massive rampage, and will presumably end next chapter now that Kale and Caulifla have successfully fused. That's three whole chapters with 45 pages each, all dedicated to a single subplot that's probably the longest-running continuous one in the arc yet.

If there's any editorial pressure, it's clearly not affecting Toyotaro's ability to write a story that takes its time establishing plot points that matter for relevant characters.