Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

Yeah there is no real evidence of a retcon.

During Piccolo vs Frost, not only was Piccolo still inferior in power, but he was fighting a weakened Frost that could barely stand up just a moment prior. As we saw with Golden Freeza and Jiren, the sky is the limit as far as the difference between somebody's full-power and their max power in a weakened state like Frost was here. Either way, even if Piccolo was as strong as Frost(he isn't) then there's still no implication that Piccolo could "smoke" SSG Goku from BoG.

Future Trunks being really strong does not contradict anything that was established previously as far as the "God boost" or anything like that. He had been training for the previous 14 years including constantly being pushed to fight Goku Black during all of this time.

If Frost was so weak to where Piccolo had a chance against him then why did a fresh Vegeta go ssj to knock him out instead of just using base?
If you want to argue the risk of poison then why not just go ssj2 or even ssb and completely mitigate any risk?
Also Trunks trained non stop for a decade + and still struggled to defeat Dabura who was Perfect Cell level. One year of mostly getting his ass kicked by a Goku black who couldn't even access goku's power and hiding somehow pushed Trunks from Cell level to above Buu arc Vegetto?

Vegeta stated that he was suppressed as a SSJ so he obviously wasn't using the full extent of SSJ's power anyway. He didn't need the full-power of SSJ to one-shot Frost. It is possible that he just wasn't certain that he could one shot Frost in Base the same way he did as a Suppressed SSJ. Either way, Goku told Piccolo that he had no chance because even though Frost was weakened, he was still far superior to Piccolo in power. Piccolo's only chance was the Makankosoppo.

Trunks had trained for 14 years and we have no idea at what point he had trouble with Dabura so this isn't really valid. A time frame is not given so ou cannot logically deduce that he went from recently having trouble with Dabura to fighting evenly with Goku. It could have been a year ago or 12 years ago and would contradict nothing. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that he defeated Dabura and then trained for several years after that. Trunks is a hybrid Saiyan and hybrid Saiyans are stated to have more potential. Trunks had obviously gotten dramatically stronger since the time that he fought Dabura if he could compete with Goku at all.

[1345521]

I'm really tired of people acting like Super Saiyan forms have an objective multiplier. If Goku got his power multiplied by 50 on Namek, then he would have still gotten wrecked by Frieza, because his Ki had shrank to a fraction of his full power and Frieza was fighting at 100%.

Frieza fighting at "100%" is not the same thing as mssj blue bergamo.
Goku ssj is an 50x stated by Akira so it's a literal FACT. The other are just kinda those guides made it up and Akira kinda just stamped off the entire book as "good". So I don't take ssj2 and 3 as seriously as others. But ssj I do because that's what Akira said. Freeza at 100% just means he's powered up to full power, like hit did in the manga. Though after awhile Frieza stamnia starts to depleat hence how goku got the advantage.

[1345521]

Yeah there is no real evidence of a retcon.

During Piccolo vs Frost, not only was Piccolo still inferior in power, but he was fighting a weakened Frost that could barely stand up just a moment prior. As we saw with Golden Freeza and Jiren, the sky is the limit as far as the difference between somebody's full-power and their max power in a weakened state like Frost was here. Either way, even if Piccolo was as strong as Frost(he isn't) then there's still no implication that Piccolo could "smoke" SSG Goku from BoG.

Future Trunks being really strong does not contradict anything that was established previously as far as the "God boost" or anything like that. He had been training for the previous 14 years including constantly being pushed to fight Goku Black during all of this time.

If Frost was so weak to where Piccolo had a chance against him then why did a fresh Vegeta go ssj to knock him out instead of just using base?
If you want to argue the risk of poison then why not just go ssj2 or even ssb and completely mitigate any risk?
Also Trunks trained non stop for a decade + and still struggled to defeat Dabura who was Perfect Cell level. One year of mostly getting his ass kicked by a Goku black who couldn't even access goku's power and hiding somehow pushed Trunks from Cell level to above Buu arc Vegetto?

Vegeta stated that he was suppressed as a SSJ so he obviously wasn't using the full extent of SSJ's power anyway. He didn't need the full-power of SSJ to one-shot Frost. It is possible that he just wasn't certain that he could one shot Frost in Base the same way he did as a Suppressed SSJ. Either way, Goku told Piccolo that he had no chance because even though Frost was weakened, he was still far superior to Piccolo in power. Piccolo's only chance was the Makankosoppo.

Trunks had trained for 14 years and we have no idea at what point he had trouble with Dabura so this isn't really valid. A time frame is not given so ou cannot logically deduce that he went from recently having trouble with Dabura to fighting evenly with Goku. It could have been a year ago or 12 years ago and would contradict nothing. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that he defeated Dabura and then trained for several years after that. Trunks is a hybrid Saiyan and hybrid Saiyans are stated to have more potential. Trunks had obviously gotten dramatically stronger since the time that he fought Dabura if he could compete with Goku at all.

False, the future trunks arc only takes place 10 years after cell, and though unrelated you said something about how ssj3 vegito is weaker then ssj god. That's total nonsense and your only argument is that goku comment he made where you assumed he was talking about a form neither toei NOR Akira has ever created. Even then, that evidence has already been DEBUNKED.
Base kale and base caulifa are weaker then base goku right?
So their fusion in base was able to make QUICK WORK OF SSJ god goku. Therefore base kefla>>>>>ssj god goku
Base vegito in Bog > ssj god
BuuhAn > ssj god

[Zamasu55]

So Broly's power will be stronger than that of a God of Destruction.
Neat.

[Bergamo]

I'm really tired of people acting like Super Saiyan forms have an objective multiplier. If Goku got his power multiplied by 50 on Namek, then he would have still gotten wrecked by Frieza, because his Ki had shrank to a fraction of his full power and Frieza was fighting at 100%.

Frieza fighting at "100%" is not the same thing as mssj blue bergamo.
Goku ssj is an 50x stated by Akira so it's a literal FACT. The other are just kinda those guides made it up and Akira kinda just stamped off the entire book as "good". So I don't take ssj2 and 3 as seriously as others. But ssj I do because that's what Akira said. Freeza at 100% just means he's powered up to full power, like hit did in the manga. Though after awhile Frieza stamnia starts to depleat hence how goku got the advantage.

Toriyama said, "Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

This is vague, but my interpretation is that Goku was 50 times as strong as his max power, but that his power wasn't multiplied. I also don't think that Toriyama means that SS1 is always 50 times as strong, and that this is a consistent objective multiplier. This statement most likely applies to Namek alone.

[MoscoSama]

So Broly's power will be stronger than that of a God of Destruction.
Neat.

All of them except beerus of course since Toriyama's house cat will never be surpassed

[1345521]

I'm really tired of people acting like Super Saiyan forms have an objective multiplier. If Goku got his power multiplied by 50 on Namek, then he would have still gotten wrecked by Frieza, because his Ki had shrank to a fraction of his full power and Frieza was fighting at 100%.

Frieza fighting at "100%" is not the same thing as mssj blue bergamo.
Goku ssj is an 50x stated by Akira so it's a literal FACT. The other are just kinda those guides made it up and Akira kinda just stamped off the entire book as "good". So I don't take ssj2 and 3 as seriously as others. But ssj I do because that's what Akira said. Freeza at 100% just means he's powered up to full power, like hit did in the manga. Though after awhile Frieza stamnia starts to depleat hence how goku got the advantage.

Toriyama said, "Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

This is vague, but my interpretation is that Goku was 50 times as strong as his max power, but that his power wasn't multiplied. I also don't think that Toriyama means that SS1 is always 50 times as strong, and that this is a consistent objective multiplier. This statement most likely applies to Namek alone.

Hm... Good point. I guess you could be right. Though I strongly dissagree with your sentiments that "manga character are generally weaker the. Their anime counterparts" manga counterparts are stronger and far better warriors then anime.

[PFM18]

BuuhAn > ssj god

Lol

Also, The future trunks arc takes place 13-14 years after the Cell Arc. BoG happens 4 years after the Buu Arc and the ToP arc happens 7 years after the Buu Arc because Bra is born during it and she is 3 during the EoZ. Depending on if the FT arc was just prior or a year or so prior to the ToP arc, it is 13 or 14 years.

[1345521]

BuuhAn > ssj god

Lol

Also, The future trunks arc takes place 13-14 years after the Cell Arc. BoG happens 4 years after the Buu Arc and the ToP arc happens 7 years after the Buu Arc because Bra is born during it and she is 3 during the EoZ. Depending on if the FT arc was just prior or a year or so prior to the ToP arc, it is 13 or 14 years.

It's true and based in the anime, it's kinda what's implied

Wrong, the manga has debunked it and the anime sorta indirectly debunked it. The anime never confirms ANY of these time placements, while the manga debunks it. You're using a retcon BoG movie, exenoverse and headcanon. I'm using offcial manga.and bra was 7 during the EoZ, because GT only takes place 5 years after Z and bra was already 12 in GT.

[Bergamo]

Frieza fighting at "100%" is not the same thing as mssj blue bergamo.
Goku ssj is an 50x stated by Akira so it's a literal FACT. The other are just kinda those guides made it up and Akira kinda just stamped off the entire book as "good". So I don't take ssj2 and 3 as seriously as others. But ssj I do because that's what Akira said. Freeza at 100% just means he's powered up to full power, like hit did in the manga. Though after awhile Frieza stamnia starts to depleat hence how goku got the advantage.

Toriyama said, "Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

This is vague, but my interpretation is that Goku was 50 times as strong as his max power, but that his power wasn't multiplied. I also don't think that Toriyama means that SS1 is always 50 times as strong, and that this is a consistent objective multiplier. This statement most likely applies to Namek alone.

Hm... Good point. I guess you could be right. Though I strongly dissagree with your sentiments that "manga character are generally weaker the. Their anime counterparts" manga counterparts are stronger and far better warriors then anime.

The manga characters are weaker because they didn't get any random boosts. Manga Gohan is weaker thanAnime Gohan because they didn't randomly boost him to blue tier, and Manga 17 is only SS3 level. Goku is comparatively stronger than Anime Goku in SSB, but in his base and regular Super Saiyan forms he seems to be weaker.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The numbers however don't lie. Vegeta is at 34k while Cui is 18k and Vegeta annihilated him thanks to that gap. Hell, he wrecks Dodoria and regular Zarbon too and they're much closer to Vegeta in power.

That's my point... You don't need to be multiple times above someone to kill them easily.

Goku's power level was 90k, not 60k. Still, it doesn't make the difference much more. 2.25

Based on Jeice's report of how the fight went Ginyu estimated his power to be around 60k and later admited he was a bit better than expected, what's probably talking about his fighting skills. Goku's full power was 90k, but he didn't need much more than 60k to do that to the Ginyu Force.

That Jeice and Burta fight doesn’t work though, in this instance we have certain powers shown prior doing absolutely nothing, so in this instance we we actually shown that SSJG must be well over what was shown up until that point. Here’s a rough breakdown.

The Toppo fight had clearly shown that an 8x multiplier was called useless, and by being called useless basically stated to not make a dent in catching the goal post that was Toppo. That’s just how insane Toppos power was there.
For Goku to say that SSJG is an entirely different level than what was shown up until it’s outright stated due to that, that it’s well over the 8x SSJ3, as everything shown up until then which was the power up from SSJ-3 = useless, yet SSJG = entirely different level. The main points in that fight are the 8x multiplier being referred to as useless, and SSJG being referred to as an entirely different level. It wasn’t even that SSJG was shown to be just a bit over that multiplier, but it was so far over that multiplier that it didn’t just close the gap on Toppo when an 8x multiplier couldn’t make any ground on his power, but instead it made Toppo reveal his true power on top of that. So Goku went straight over suppressed Toppos power and instead matched his true power. It’s clealry miles ahead of SSJ3. So from that we know SSJG >> SSJ3x8 It’s really super clear in that fight. You can’t call an 8x multiplier totally useless and then think that doing the same thing to your power again is enough to call it an entirely different level. Goku isn’t that dumb, and he clearly wasn’t as it was an entirely different level.
SSJG = TP Toppo > Surpressed Toppo > Useless x8 > SSJ3 (useless)

Then like the first point I made, SSJG is well over SSJ Black and Base Black is well over SSJ3 Goku. It’s all there to see that the multiplier for God is astronomical.

A 8x is useless if your opponent is like 10 or 12x stronger than you. Maybe even 9x.

Plus Toyotaro might be writting the story with a different set of multipliers in mind. If he thinks SSJG and SSJB aren't much more than 10x SSJ, yet SSJ3 was stated to be 8x back in Z era, that means the 8x multiplier isn't canon anymore, just like Potara fusion lacking a time limit isn't canon anymore. Super just out-canons Z stuff if it's needed for the plot.

[BlueBasilisk]

Didn't Goku get a significant power boost from the first botched attempt at the Super Saiyan God ritual? Would that factor into the final result in BoG?

[Bullza]

Well in the movie dub, Gohan said he was the strongest in history.

[Bergamo]

Didn't Goku get a significant power boost from the first botched attempt at the Super Saiyan God ritual? Would that factor into the final result in BoG?

Everyone gave him their energy, like when Gohan and Krillin gace their energy to Piccolo on Namek. It wasn't a significant increase and it was temporary.

[ZombieVito]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

I certainly get the impression that's the case. In the manga, they still use SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games as a meaningful measuring stick when comparing it to Trunks' SS2 and Trunks is capable of matching Goku in SS3.

I read that chapter recently. Goku and Trunks fight in SS2, Whis says that Trunks has a slight edge, then this:

Goku: "Amazing. You're even stronger than Gohan was back then."

...implying a relatively small difference, which fits nicely with Trunks a few years earlier struggling to beat Dabra and needing Kaioshin's help. So yeah, I guess that confirms it. It seems that this chapter was very deliberately written to be a power guide given how out-of-nowhere these statements are, including comparisons to past levels and character clarifying what forms they're in. Which combined with Toriyama's level of supervision makes me strongly suspect that the whole state of affairs in the anime (last I checked anyway) is a possibly-retconned Toei embellishment.

Then again. You have on later chapters that base Goku is stronger than Shin so that makes that comparison between Trunks and Gohan impossible.

Trunks needs to be a lot more stronger than kid Gohan.

[Bergamo]

I certainly get the impression that's the case. In the manga, they still use SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games as a meaningful measuring stick when comparing it to Trunks' SS2 and Trunks is capable of matching Goku in SS3.

I read that chapter recently. Goku and Trunks fight in SS2, Whis says that Trunks has a slight edge, then this:

Goku: "Amazing. You're even stronger than Gohan was back then."

...implying a relatively small difference, which fits nicely with Trunks a few years earlier struggling to beat Dabra and needing Kaioshin's help. So yeah, I guess that confirms it. It seems that this chapter was very deliberately written to be a power guide given how out-of-nowhere these statements are, including comparisons to past levels and character clarifying what forms they're in. Which combined with Toriyama's level of supervision makes me strongly suspect that the whole state of affairs in the anime (last I checked anyway) is a possibly-retconned Toei embellishment.

Then again. You have on later chapters that base Goku is stronger than Shin so that makes that comparison between Trunks and Gohan impossible.

Trunks needs to be a lot more stronger than kid Gohan.

Where does it ever say that Base Goku is stronger than Shin?

[GodVegetto91]

This just in guys!

Broly confirmed stronger than a God of Destruction!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3068466177

Now early promotional material for the ToP arc about a year ago stated that Jiren was “on the level of a GoD”. (Not above it)

Broly is now confirmed to be above it. Which seems to go perfectly in line with Dragonball’s whole “next antagonist is stronger than the previous one”.

[Mister_Popo]

This just in guys!

Broly confirmed stronger than a God of Destruction!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3068466177

Now early promotional material for the ToP arc about a year ago stated that Jiren was “on the level of a GoD”. (Not above it)

Broly is now confirmed to be above it. Which seems to go perfectly in line with Dragonball’s whole “next antagonist is stronger than the previous one”.

Of course, i always assumed that's mere logic. There are not going to produce a main villain that is someone between TOP Blue Kaioken and TOP UI.
If you know the continuity of DB, that's just high unlikely.

[MoscoSama]

I read that chapter recently. Goku and Trunks fight in SS2, Whis says that Trunks has a slight edge, then this:

Goku: "Amazing. You're even stronger than Gohan was back then."

...implying a relatively small difference, which fits nicely with Trunks a few years earlier struggling to beat Dabra and needing Kaioshin's help. So yeah, I guess that confirms it. It seems that this chapter was very deliberately written to be a power guide given how out-of-nowhere these statements are, including comparisons to past levels and character clarifying what forms they're in. Which combined with Toriyama's level of supervision makes me strongly suspect that the whole state of affairs in the anime (last I checked anyway) is a possibly-retconned Toei embellishment.

Then again. You have on later chapters that base Goku is stronger than Shin so that makes that comparison between Trunks and Gohan impossible.

Trunks needs to be a lot more stronger than kid Gohan.

Where does it ever say that Base Goku is stronger than Shin?

At the zen exhibition match, when the GoD for u10 Rumoosh started yelling, all the kaioshins fainted including shin but goku was still able to stand up and he was in base.

Also Shins power is hard for me to grasp. In the manga he wanted Goku, Vegeta and Gohan to team up on Yakon but iirc base goku had the physical edge on Yakon. Also Dabura only considered the 3 saiyans while they were still in base to be worth anything even over Shin and Piccolo. Been a long time since i read it so someone correct me if i'm wrong

[Zamasu55]

This just in guys!

Broly confirmed stronger than a God of Destruction!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3068466177

Now early promotional material for the ToP arc about a year ago stated that Jiren was “on the level of a GoD”. (Not above it)

Broly is now confirmed to be above it. Which seems to go perfectly in line with Dragonball’s whole “next antagonist is stronger than the previous one”.

He was still confirmed to be stronger during the ToP.