Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

He is using 100%.

Goku doesn't say that about Vegeta; Vegeta says that about Goku. He just clarified that Vegeta's trick maximizes the power available to him, not that he can use 100% of Blue's power, and that it doesn't drop off from its initial level of strength like it normally does. It's the exact same trick Goku used against Hit during the previous tournament, which is also confirmed by Goku himself.

Goku being able to fight Merged Zamasu on par is simply an inconsistency.

No it isn't, because there's nothing that it's inconsistent with. Super Saiyan Blue at 100% power is strong enough to compete with Fused Zamasu. He overpowered the same character with his "full power" in the anime, so it's not like the manga takes a vastly different approach.

And again, even if you were correct:

there's a marked performance difference between using that form only during the moment of impact and using it at a constant rate.

It is an inconsistency. Nowhere is it said that CSSB is a stronger form than Blue so how can Goku perform on par with a fusion of himself and Zamasu? It's rubbish.

The anime doesn't do the same mistake, not at all. Goku overpowers Zamasu with a limit breaking Super Kamehameha that breaks his arms. Without the amplification of the attack he can't do nothing to him as proven when Zamasu effortlessly stops both Goku and Vegeta's attacks with just his hands.

It's stated that Goku is fighting with 100% of Blue's power, whereas he doesn't usually fight at that level. From this you can figure out that he's stronger. They never state that Chaozu is stronger than Jiren, but if you ask anyone who would win, they'd all say Jiren.

[Marlowe89]

It is an inconsistency. Nowhere is it said that CSSB is a stronger form than Blue so how can Goku perform on par with a fusion of himself and Zamasu? It's rubbish.

No. For something to be an inconsistency, it would have to plainly contradict something else in the same material. Toyotaro isn't infallible and I'm sure he's just as prone to errors as every other writer in charge of a long-running series, but this isn't one of them.

100% of Blue's power has never been accessed before Goku completed the form, otherwise there wouldn't be a ki-leaking aura in the first place. Nobody mentioned a thing about its full power until Vegeta commented on Goku's method. The whole point of Goku using it in an instantaneous burst during the U6 arc - and Vegeta using it in instantaneous bursts against Black - was to minimize the drain that occurs pretty much instantly after the transformation. For the third time, there's a difference between having access to something close to that power in short bursts and having access to the power itself on a constant basis. This isn't complicated.

Goku overpowers Zamasu with a limit breaking Super Kamehameha that breaks his arms.

Which was Blue's full power according to Goku's dialogue in the same scene. The thing that you're taking issue with here (i.e. Goku performing better than a fusion of "himself" and Zamasu -- which isn't actually an issue) is the very same thing that happened in the anime.

[MoscoSama]

Akira Toriyama revealed that in his original draft, Merged Zamasu was only supposed to be about as strong as ssb goku and ssb vegeta so you can't really blame Toyotaro for that one when Toriyama himself didn't see M Zamasu as anything spectacular

[ZombieVito]

It is an inconsistency. Nowhere is it said that CSSB is a stronger form than Blue so how can Goku perform on par with a fusion of himself and Zamasu? It's rubbish.

No. For something to be an inconsistency, it would have to plainly contradict something else in the same material. Toyotaro isn't infallible and I'm sure he's just as prone to errors as every other writer in charge of a long-running series, but this isn't one of them.

100% of Blue's power has never been accessed before Goku completed the form, otherwise there wouldn't be a ki-leaking aura in the first place. Nobody mentioned a thing about its full power until Vegeta commented on Goku's method. The whole point of Goku using it in an instantaneous burst during the U6 arc - and Vegeta using it in instantaneous bursts against Black - was to minimize the drain that occurs pretty much instantly after the transformation. For the third time, there's a difference between having access to something close to that power in short bursts and having access to the power itself on a constant basis. This isn't complicated.

Goku overpowers Zamasu with a limit breaking Super Kamehameha that breaks his arms.

Which was Blue's full power according to Goku's dialogue in the same scene. The thing that you're taking issue with here (i.e. Goku performing better than a fusion of "himself" and Zamasu -- which isn't actually an issue) is the very same thing that happened in the anime.

You are not getting it.

Goku Black got all of Goku's power. He never is stated to get weaker while transformed so he is at 100% all the time and then he fused with Zamasu.

Goku just happens to battle on par with that fusion that has the power of Goku Black plus Zamasu. That doesn't make sense. Merged Zamasu didn't get weaker but stronger as confirmed by him.

Amplification is still your own power so Goku is not technically wrong. The same thing happened on E118 with Saonel praising Piccolo's power but it was really his insane amplification that he put on his Makankosappo that defeat them. You also need to take into account that Goku's Kamehameha just pierced Zamasu's ball a little bit and that the ball also damaged Zamasu when it exploded.

[Bergamo]

It is an inconsistency. Nowhere is it said that CSSB is a stronger form than Blue so how can Goku perform on par with a fusion of himself and Zamasu? It's rubbish.

No. For something to be an inconsistency, it would have to plainly contradict something else in the same material. Toyotaro isn't infallible and I'm sure he's just as prone to errors as every other writer in charge of a long-running series, but this isn't one of them.

100% of Blue's power has never been accessed before Goku completed the form, otherwise there wouldn't be a ki-leaking aura in the first place. Nobody mentioned a thing about its full power until Vegeta commented on Goku's method. The whole point of Goku using it in an instantaneous burst during the U6 arc - and Vegeta using it in instantaneous bursts against Black - was to minimize the drain that occurs pretty much instantly after the transformation. For the third time, there's a difference between having access to something close to that power in short bursts and having access to the power itself on a constant basis. This isn't complicated.

Goku overpowers Zamasu with a limit breaking Super Kamehameha that breaks his arms.

Which was Blue's full power according to Goku's dialogue in the same scene. The thing that you're taking issue with here (i.e. Goku performing better than a fusion of "himself" and Zamasu -- which isn't actually an issue) is the very same thing that happened in the anime.

You are not getting it.

Goku Black got all of Goku's power. He never is stated to get weaker while transformed so he is at 100% all the time and then he fused with Zamasu.

Goku just happens to battle on par with that fusion that has the power of Goku Black plus Zamasu. That doesn't make sense. Merged Zamasu didn't get weaker but stronger as confirmed by him.

Amplification is still your own power so Goku is not technically wrong. The same thing happened on E118 with Saonel praising Piccolo's power but it was really his insane amplification that he put on his Makankosappo that defeat them. You also need to take into account that Goku's Kamehameha just pierced Zamasu's ball a little bit and that the ball also damaged Zamasu when it exploded.

Super Saiyan Rosé is weaker than Super Saiyan Blue. Goku beat a weaker version of himself fused with a fodder character. It's as simple as that.

[Marlowe89]

Goku Black got all of Goku's power. He never is stated to get weaker while transformed so he is at 100% all the time and then he fused with Zamasu.

This isn't even remotely true and you know it.

Rose and Blue are the same form. The completed version of that form is signified by the lack of an aura, which wasn't a trait that Black possessed. Black himself only obtained all of Goku's power prior to Goku achieving CSSB, meaning that at the absolute most, his power was based on the boost of the standard transformation.

Completed Blue Goku >= Fused Zamasu > Blue-God Vegeta > Rose Black. This is all succintly presented throughout the whole fight.

Amplification is still your own power so Goku is not technically wrong.

He didn't say anything about amplification or going beyond his limits. He specifically said it was his full power, which happened to be a level of strength Goku couldn't handle without breaking his own arms at the time. Pretty simple, honestly.

[Bergamo]

Goku Black got all of Goku's power. He never is stated to get weaker while transformed so he is at 100% all the time and then he fused with Zamasu.

This isn't even remotely true and you know it.

Rose and Blue are the same form. The completed version of that form is signified by the lack of an aura, which wasn't a trait that Black possessed. Black himself only obtained all of Goku's power prior to Goku achieving CSSB, meaning that at the absolute most, his power was based on the boost of the standard transformation.

Completed Blue Goku >= Fused Zamasu > Blue-God Vegeta > Rose Black. This is all succintly presented throughout the whole fight.

Amplification is still your own power so Goku is not technically wrong.

He didn't say anything about amplification or going beyond his limits. He specifically said it was his full power, which happened to be a level of strength Goku couldn't handle without breaking his own arms at the time. Pretty simple, honestly.

Rosé isn't the same form as Blue. Rosé was shown to be stronger than SSB Vegeta, and SSB Goku is roughly equal to SSB Vegeta. Goku Black is obviously not stronger than Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

He is using 100%.

Goku doesn't say that about Vegeta; Vegeta says that about Goku. He just clarified that Vegeta's trick maximizes the power available to him, not that he can use 100% of Blue's power, and that it doesn't drop off from its initial level of strength like it normally does. It's the exact same trick Goku used against Hit during the previous tournament, which is also confirmed by Goku himself.

Goku being able to fight Merged Zamasu on par is simply an inconsistency.

No it isn't, because there's nothing that it's inconsistent with. Super Saiyan Blue at 100% power is strong enough to compete with Fused Zamasu. He overpowered the same character with his "full power" in the anime, so it's not like the manga takes a vastly different approach.

And again, even if you were correct:

there's a marked performance difference between using that form only during the moment of impact and using it at a constant rate.

It is an inconsistency. Nowhere is it said that CSSB is a stronger form than Blue so how can Goku perform on par with a fusion of himself and Zamasu? It's rubbish.

The anime doesn't do the same mistake, not at all. Goku overpowers Zamasu with a limit breaking Super Kamehameha that breaks his arms. Without the amplification of the attack he can't do nothing to him as proven when Zamasu effortlessly stops both Goku and Vegeta's attacks with just his hands.

Fused Zamasu doesn't seem that much stronger than SSR Black, SSB Goku can go toe to toe with him after solving the stamina issue and an exhausted SSB Goku can blow a hole in his torso with a Kamehameha. Probably because Future Zamasu is extremely weak in the manga, like Cell Games to early Buu arc level weak (it's implied he's below SS1 Goku, and if nothing else he's explicitly an ant compared to Trunks). It seems similar to when Kibito and Kaioshin fused, and the resulting increase wasn't that big because Kibito is dozens of times weaker than Kaioshin.

When I read the manga I just had the impression that CSSB and SSB/SSG switching were basically the same thing ("he's fighting consistently at 100% power" vs "his power isn't dropping off at all"), except the former was far faster since now the user has the ki of SSB in all movements rather than just during attacks. Is there anything contradicting that interpretation?

Mai, Trunks, and Shin were caught by surprise. So was Merged Zamas. In Dragon Ball, a character can be damaged by a weak attack if they don't expect it.

None of these people were remotely caught by surprise. Merged Zamasu was prepping an attack and charging at his foe. Trunks and the others were standing still and staring at the attack with a look of terror as it slowly dragged its way towards them.

1. Zamas thought that Goku and Vegeta were trying to escape, and he wasn't expecting an attack. He even says, "huh?" Also, he literally wasn't charging at his foe. That's just incorrect.
2. Mai, Trunks, and Shin has surprise bubbles next to their faces. Also, "slowly," you say. The attack was almost instantaneous. It wasn't slowly approaching, it was so quick that no one besides Goku had any time to attack.

1. He was attacking, had an energy ball prepped. There is no scenario where he possibly could have been more on-guard. The "huh?" came because he was curious about the lightshow coming from the building which indicates, again, the exact opposite of him being off guard. And why would he be not expecting an attack? He just knocked Goku into that building; and when the beam comes at him, it's both too fast for him to dodge and powerful enough that he actually sweats and gets his own reaction shot to it, as if he thought there was no way that Goku could possibly output something that powerful.
2. Those aren't bubbles of surprise, but alarm. They clearly perceive and react to the beams dragging their way towards them. They do nothing but look scared. Even though Trunks, at the very least, is on par with SS3 Goku. I'm fine with dismissing scenes like that as inconsistencies but let's not pretend that they didn't happen.

[ZombieVito]

Goku Black got all of Goku's power. He never is stated to get weaker while transformed so he is at 100% all the time and then he fused with Zamasu.

This isn't even remotely true and you know it.

Rose and Blue are the same form. The completed version of that form is signified by the lack of an aura, which wasn't a trait that Black possessed. Black himself only obtained all of Goku's power prior to Goku achieving CSSB, meaning that at the absolute most, his power was based on the boost of the standard transformation.

Completed Blue Goku >= Fused Zamasu > Blue-God Vegeta > Rose Black. This is all succintly presented throughout the whole fight.

Amplification is still your own power so Goku is not technically wrong.

He didn't say anything about amplification or going beyond his limits. He specifically said it was his full power, which happened to be a level of strength Goku couldn't handle without breaking his own arms at the time. Pretty simple, honestly.

CSSB was never stated to be stronger than Blue. Since Rose was never stated to get weaker with time then Black does have all of Goku's power.

So Goku lied about going full power and getting stomped by Zamasu on the previous episode? It's very clear he only beat Zamasu in the clash thanks to the amplification he did that broke his arms. That never happened before and even back when Raditz arrived at Earth his Kamehameha amplification was already at 2 times is normal power. Now it should be way higher.

Fused Zamasu doesn't seem that much stronger than SSR Black, SSB Goku can go toe to toe with him after solving the stamina issue and an exhausted SSB Goku can blow a hole in his torso with a Kamehameha. Probably because Future Zamasu is extremely weak in the manga, like Cell Games to early Buu arc level weak (it's implied he's below SS1 Goku, and if nothing else he's explicitly an ant compared to Trunks). It seems similar to when Kibito and Kaioshin fused, and the resulting increase wasn't that big.

When I read the manga I just had the impression that CSSB and SSB/SSG switching were basically the same thing ("he's fighting consistently at 100% power" vs "his power isn't dropping off at all"), except the former was far faster since now the user has the ki of SSB in all movements rather than just during attacks. Is there anything contradicting that interpretation?

Zamasu doesn't give that vibe to me though. He was pretty much creaming his pants on how powerful he had gotten. SSG Goku only managed to blow a hole on him because he dropped his guard.

Regular Zamasu can't be that weak. Base Goku was already stronger than Shin and you then need to multiply that for at least 50 times since Goku matched is power to him by using Super Saiyan (Or was it Super Saiyan 2?).

No, nothing contradicts this and that's why it's a plothole. Goku shouldn't be keeping up with a fusion of himself and another guy.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku Black got all of Goku's power. He never is stated to get weaker while transformed so he is at 100% all the time and then he fused with Zamasu.

This isn't even remotely true and you know it.

Rose and Blue are the same form. The completed version of that form is signified by the lack of an aura, which wasn't a trait that Black possessed. Black himself only obtained all of Goku's power prior to Goku achieving CSSB, meaning that at the absolute most, his power was based on the boost of the standard transformation.

Completed Blue Goku >= Fused Zamasu > Blue-God Vegeta > Rose Black. This is all succintly presented throughout the whole fight.

Amplification is still your own power so Goku is not technically wrong.

He didn't say anything about amplification or going beyond his limits. He specifically said it was his full power, which happened to be a level of strength Goku couldn't handle without breaking his own arms at the time. Pretty simple, honestly.

CSSB was never stated to be stronger than Blue. Since Rose was never stated to get weaker with time then Black does have all of Goku's power.

So Goku lied about going full power and getting stomped by Zamasu on the previous episode? It's very clear he only beat Zamasu in the clash thanks to the amplification he did that broke his arms. That never happened before and even back when Raditz arrived at Earth his Kamehameha amplification was already at 2 times is normal power. Now it should be way higher.

Kaio-Ken and ki amplification don't stack. The official battle powers in Daizenshuu 7 for instance place Goku at 32,000 next to an image of him firing a Kamehameha at Vegeta, and 60,000,000 next to an image of him firing a Kamehameha at Freeza (which Freeza went to 50%, AKA 60,000,000, to counter).

[Bergamo]

Goku doesn't say that about Vegeta; Vegeta says that about Goku. He just clarified that Vegeta's trick maximizes the power available to him, not that he can use 100% of Blue's power, and that it doesn't drop off from its initial level of strength like it normally does. It's the exact same trick Goku used against Hit during the previous tournament, which is also confirmed by Goku himself.



No it isn't, because there's nothing that it's inconsistent with. Super Saiyan Blue at 100% power is strong enough to compete with Fused Zamasu. He overpowered the same character with his "full power" in the anime, so it's not like the manga takes a vastly different approach.

And again, even if you were correct:

It is an inconsistency. Nowhere is it said that CSSB is a stronger form than Blue so how can Goku perform on par with a fusion of himself and Zamasu? It's rubbish.

The anime doesn't do the same mistake, not at all. Goku overpowers Zamasu with a limit breaking Super Kamehameha that breaks his arms. Without the amplification of the attack he can't do nothing to him as proven when Zamasu effortlessly stops both Goku and Vegeta's attacks with just his hands.

Fused Zamasu doesn't seem that much stronger than SSR Black, SSB Goku can go toe to toe with him after solving the stamina issue and an exhausted SSB Goku can blow a hole in his torso with a Kamehameha. Probably because Future Zamasu is extremely weak in the manga, like Cell Games to early Buu arc level weak (it's implied he's below SS1 Goku, and if nothing else he's explicitly an ant compared to Trunks). It seems similar to when Kibito and Kaioshin fused, and the resulting increase wasn't that big.

When I read the manga I just had the impression that CSSB and SSB/SSG switching were basically the same thing ("he's fighting consistently at 100% power" vs "his power isn't dropping off at all"), except the former was far faster since now the user has the ki of SSB in all movements rather than just during attacks. Is there anything contradicting that interpretation?

None of these people were remotely caught by surprise. Merged Zamasu was prepping an attack and charging at his foe. Trunks and the others were standing still and staring at the attack with a look of terror as it slowly dragged its way towards them.

1. Zamas thought that Goku and Vegeta were trying to escape, and he wasn't expecting an attack. He even says, "huh?" Also, he literally wasn't charging at his foe. That's just incorrect.
2. Mai, Trunks, and Shin has surprise bubbles next to their faces. Also, "slowly," you say. The attack was almost instantaneous. It wasn't slowly approaching, it was so quick that no one besides Goku had any time to attack.

1. He was attacking, had an energy ball prepped. There is no scenario where he possibly could have been more on-guard. The "huh?" came because he was curious about the lightshow coming from the building which indicates, again, the exact opposite of him being off guard. And why would he be not expecting an attack? He just knocked Goku into that building; and when the beam comes at him, it's both too fast for him to dodge and powerful enough that he actually sweats and gets his own reaction shot to it, as if he thought there was no way that Goku could possibly output something that powerful.
2. Those aren't bubbles of surprise, but alarm. They clearly perceive and react to the beams dragging their way towards them. They do nothing but look scared. Even though Trunks, at the very least, is on par with SS3 Goku.

There's nothing disproving your interpretation, but nothing supporting it either. The 100% distinction was made, so you can choose to ignore it, but you shouldn't.

1. Either way, this doesn't mean that Base Vegito > Merged Zamas. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have both blown up Merged Zamas, but they are evidently weaker than him.
2. Trunks' in action doesn't mean that Base Goku is suddenly stronger than SS3 Goku from a few chapters ago. That's a serious stretch.

[ZombieVito]

Kaio-Ken and ki amplification don't stack. The official battle powers in Daizenshuu 7 for instance place Goku at 32,000 next to an image of him firing a Kamehameha at Vegeta, and 60,000,000 next to an image of him firing a Kamehameha at Freeza (which Freeza went to 50%, AKA 60,000,000, to counter).

But I never mentioned Kaioken.

[Marlowe89]

CSSB was never stated to be stronger than Blue. Since Rose was never stated to get weaker with time then Black does have all of Goku's power.

It's stronger than Blue for reasons I explained two posts ago. If that wasn't obvious, Chapter 27 further spells it out and beats you over the head with the fact that it's a superior version of the form in strength.

Oh, and again, Black doesn't have the traits of CSSB.

Not sure what your angle is here, because it's obvious as all hell that it's a vastly improved version of the standard form in every aspect. Goku and Vegeta couldn't use Blue's full power before because it leaks instantly; Completed Blue kicks that problem to the curb. That's the whole damn point. It's not a plot hole in any sense of the word and I don't think anyone approving the chapter (like Toriyama, for instance) would have that impression either.

So Goku lied about going full power and getting stomped by Zamasu on the previous episode?

No, he didn't lie. That's my point. He said he was going to use Blue's full power in the anime and flat-out overwhelmed Fused Zamasu while using it.

Rosé isn't the same form as Blue.

I meant it's the same form in the sense that Zamasu described to be a god's variant of Blue. Black and Goku/Vegeta aren't of the same base power level, so their strength after their boosts likewise wouldn't be the same.

[Bergamo]

CSSB was never stated to be stronger than Blue. Since Rose was never stated to get weaker with time then Black does have all of Goku's power.

It's stronger than Blue for reasons I explained two posts ago. If that wasn't obvious, Chapter 27 further spells it out and beats you over the head with the fact that it's a superior version of the form in strength.

Oh, and again, Black doesn't have the traits of CSSB.

Not sure what your angle is here, because it's obvious as all hell that it's a vastly improved version of the standard form in every aspect. Goku and Vegeta couldn't use Blue's full power before because it leaks instantly; Completed Blue kicks that problem to the curb. That's the whole damn point. It's not a plot hole in any sense of the word and I don't think anyone approving the chapter (like Toriyama, for instance) would have that impression either.

So Goku lied about going full power and getting stomped by Zamasu on the previous episode?

No, he didn't lie. That's my point. He said he was going to use Blue's full power in the anime and flat-out overwhelmed Fused Zamasu while using it.

Rosé isn't the same form as Blue.

I meant it's the same form in the sense that Zamasu described to be a god's variant of Blue. Black and Goku/Vegeta aren't of the same base power level, so their strength after their boosts likewise wouldn't be the same.

Black's body wasn't physically stronger though. He was able to access Goku's power differently because of his Saiyan body and his Godly soul. After he transforms into Rosé he says that he's mastered Goku's power, not that he's increased it.

[Marlowe89]

Black's body wasn't physically stronger though. He was able to access Goku's power differently because of his Saiyan body and his Godly soul. After he transforms into Rosé he says that he's mastered Goku's power, not that he's increased it.

Sure, but whatever your interpretation is, my point was just that Rosé being Black's version of Blue illustrates that he wasn't relying on the same aura-absorbing mechanics as Goku to bring about CSSB. That's just in addition to everything else.

I'm still not even sure why it's a debate that CSSB is stronger than the initial SSB in the first place.

[Bergamo]

Black's body wasn't physically stronger though. He was able to access Goku's power differently because of his Saiyan body and his Godly soul. After he transforms into Rosé he says that he's mastered Goku's power, not that he's increased it.

Sure, but whatever your interpretation is, my point was just that Rosé being Black's version of Blue illustrates that he wasn't relying on the same aura-absorbing mechanics as Goku to bring about CSSB. That's just in addition to everything else.

I'm still not even sure why it's a debate that CSSB is stronger than the initial SSB in the first place.

Personally, I think the evidence suggests that Zamas' soul in Goku's body granted him new powers, which include a powered up base form and Super Saiyan form and a transformation that is stronger than Blue, but weaker than God-Blue switching.

[ZombieVito]

CSSB was never stated to be stronger than Blue. Since Rose was never stated to get weaker with time then Black does have all of Goku's power.

It's stronger than Blue for reasons I explained two posts ago. If that wasn't obvious, Chapter 27 further spells it out and beats you over the head with the fact that it's a superior version of the form in strength.

Oh, and again, Black doesn't have the traits of CSSB.

Not sure what your angle is here, because it's obvious as all hell that it's a vastly improved version of the standard form in every aspect. Goku and Vegeta couldn't use Blue's full power before because it leaks instantly; Completed Blue kicks that problem to the curb. That's the whole damn point. It's not a plot hole in any sense of the word and I don't think anyone approving the chapter (like Toriyama, for instance) would have that impression either.

So Goku lied about going full power and getting stomped by Zamasu on the previous episode?

No, he didn't lie. That's my point. He said he was going to use Blue's full power in the anime and flat-out overwhelmed Fused Zamasu while using it.

You still not getting it.

Then Toyo corrected his fuck up because Vegeta's explanation of CSSB doesn't say it was stronger, at all.

And again, he overwhelmed Zamasu because of the amplification of the Kamehameha. Same reason Piccolo beat the Namekians. Without that amplification we see exactly what happens if they fight in the previous episode. Goku gets stomped.

[Marlowe89]

You still not getting it.

Then Toyo corrected his fuck up because Vegeta's explanation of CSSB doesn't say it was stronger, at all.

What I'm really not getting is how I can possibly explain this to you any clearer than the manga explains it. I've tried in approximately three different ways, my dude. I'm at a loss. Help me to help you.

CSSB being portrayed to be an upgraded SSB in later appearances was entirely consistent with what we already knew about the form. Vegeta said that the perfected version allows Goku to use 100% of its power continuously, the same form that Vegeta himself had to instantly switch on and off again just to maintain its full/near-full power a couple of chapters prior because its strength drains THAT rapidly. The same form that needed its entire aura absorbed just to contain its constantly leaking power. Of course it's stronger, because if it wasn't, none of these things would have made any sense.

If this still isn't getting through then I'm not sure what else to tell you. Whatever you're trying to say was corrected was certainly not an opinion everyone and their dog (or cat, for those of you averse to canines!) didn't already hold after CSSB's introductory chapter. You're just going to have to look back at the context.

And again, he overwhelmed Zamasu because of the amplification of the Kamehameha.

And again, the """amplification""" of the Kamehameha was due to Goku's full power, which is capable of overpowering Fused Zamasu in both versions of the story. That's all there is to it. I'm telling you that they're not different in that specific regard, despite treating Goku's access to said full power differently depending on the medium.

[ZombieVito]

You still not getting it.

Then Toyo corrected his fuck up because Vegeta's explanation of CSSB doesn't say it was stronger, at all.

What I'm really not getting is how I can possibly explain this to you any clearer than the manga explains it. I've tried in approximately three different ways, my dude. I'm at a loss. Help me to help you.

CSSB being portrayed to be an upgraded SSB in later appearances was entirely consistent with what we already knew about the form. Vegeta said that the perfected version allows Goku to use 100% of its power continuously, the same form that Vegeta himself had to near-instantly switch on and off again just to maintain its default power a couple of chapters prior because its strength drains THAT quickly. The same form that needed its entire aura absorbed just to contain its constantly leaking power.

If this still isn't getting through then I'm not sure what else to tell you. Whatever you're trying to say was corrected was certainly not an opinion everyone and their dog (or cat, for those of you averse to canines!) didn't already hold after CSSB's introductory chapter. You're just going to have to look back at the context.

And again, he overwhelmed Zamasu because of the amplification of the Kamehameha.

And again, the """amplification""" of the Kamehameha was due to Goku's full power, which is capable of overpowering Fused Zamasu in both versions of the story. That's all there is to it. I'm telling you that they're not different in that specific regard, despite treating Goku's access to said full power differently depending on the medium.

Don't you get it that in chapter 24 it was said that CSSB was just the power of Blue being able to be used for more than a few minutes? NOWHERE was it said that it granted a power boost on top on Blue. CSSB shouldn't be stronger than Goku Black since that body is a stronger Goku from the future.

It's a legit plothole.

Fine, so Piccolo is Blue tier now. Neat.

[Black Hawk]

CSSB shouldn't be stronger than Goku Black since that body is a stronger Goku from the future.

Goku was shown to have been rusty due to a lack of training between the Zero Mortals Plan and Tournament of Power story arcs. He likely didn't get any stronger during this time period.