AhmadHendie wrote:The only clear hit in that fight was landed by Gohan.
That doesn't matter at all. This was a casual sparring match in which Goku literally stated that he was holding back.
If base Goku is above SSG than he should have bodied him
Goku's base was never above SSG during the entire DBS run.
Unless Goku is holding back his SSJ1 to be far below his base form and is only transforming for cosmetics. Which makes zero sense
The point is, Goku said he was suppressed but we don't know by how much. Regardless of what his strength level is, he would drop it down to Gohan's level in order to have a fun fight. That is just how Goku is. It is entirely possible that SSJ Gohan is stronger than Base Goku which would make him massively stronger than his Z self which wouldn't necessarily contradict anything considering that there was no mention of Gohan's power explicitly as it compared to previous iterations, it appeared to be strictly a reference to the Ultimate form.
We also have trunks who was pushing him back. Is SSJ1 Trunks above SSG too. Does he also body SSJ3 Vegito ?
Yes. Whether or not you like it is all well and good, but that is the story being told. You are just using preconceived notions and head canon to rationalize this not being the case despite there being no evidence whatsoever that this couldn't be the case.
Goku going SSG in ToP is evidence of the retcon for me. As you can't absorb SSG to your base than go SSG on top of that.
Well, I'm sorry but this is a result of a fundamental misunderstanding of what happened during BoG. Goku's SSJ retained the same level of power of the SSG from a moment's prior simply by "experiencing it and making it his own." He simply retained that level of power nothing about the way his transformations functioned was changed so him using SSG does not contradict anything. If it did change the functionality of his forms in such a way that using SSG would create a contradiction like you are implying, then the same would have happened with Vegeta. However, Vegeta never went through the ritual he simply matched Goku in power during the time Goku was farming by training with Whis on his own. There's no indication that Vegeta's forms changed and so since there forms work exactly the same, there is no reason to think that the way Goku's forms worked was changed. You simply don't understand what happened.
It seems the anime will follow the manga route in scaling base Goku.
No indication of this whatsoever. The manga's scaling is entirely different. The anime has an abundance of scenes in which the Base of Goku/Vegeta is portrayed as being magnitudes stronger than their Buu arc selves and the same isn't true of the manga.
Gohan didn't make a statement about it being more powerful than he remembered so everything you said above is head Canon.
It is not made clear WHEN Gohan's power massively surpassed his Z self, whether it be when he re-attained the form or when he trained with Piccolo off-screen after reattaining the form, but it is plain as day that his current Ultimate form is SSB tier and therefore, thousands of times stronger than his Z self.
Ultimate Gohan being above SSJ2 Goku makes sense with his Z power.
Ok well that's great but it also makes sense with his Ultimate form being SSB tier too. No reason to think it is his Z power.
He is noticeably stronger in ToP. But not in episode 90
This doesn't make any sense. Why would he magically be stronger during the ToP than he was during episode 90? Nothing is ever stated or shown in any way to imply this.
Nope
Future Trunks world Timeline.
Trunks killed cell in year 788.
Trunks struggled to beat "tough opponent" dabura at around 790~793(couple of years before black)
Trunks meets black at 795.
Trunks Goes to the past at 796.
Yeah they just made all of that up. There is no comment whatsoever as far as when these events took place during the 14 years that we had not seen trunks. Dragon Ball Wiki is notorious for doing things like that.
There is no way he went from dabura level at SSJ2 to super vegito in base in 3~5 years with training with supreme kai. I would be suprised if he even surpassed Super buu at his absolute max power.
This is entirely subjective and not supported in any way. This is simply based on your head canon and preconceived notions. He is as strong as Goku in equivalent forms clearly, therefore he dwarfs anything from Z as a SSJ2. No reason to think otherwise whatsoever. Also, the amount of time is never made clear so this 3-5 years nonsense is invalid.
He isn't reaching above BoG SSG levels even if he acctualy trained with supreme kai for 14 years after struggling with dabura.
The only reason Base goku MIGHT be that strong is that he did the ritual. Without the ritual base trunks is fodder.
Again, preconceived notions with no support whatsoever.
Scaling base trunks at super vegito level is massively high balling him to the moon.
No it isn't. It is literally just a result of paying attention to the story being told. There's no reason to think otherwise considering Goku's strength was established to be that high.
In the DB universe these things are still in the ok "torayama forgot" category. DB was never known for the lack of plot holes. And DBS is clearly trying to fit EoZ with the pan and Uub refrences.
So until EoZ is officially retconned it's Canon and here to stay.
You can call EoZ whatever you want but it clearly does not fit with the events whether you like it or not. EoZ assumes nothing happened in the 10 years so obviously there is no way that this can be consistent with the events of DBS.
Uub wasn't weak compared to Goku he just didn't know how to fight.
Either way, no reason to think this contradicts Super very blatantly, but either way EoZ should not be considered when scaling DBS obviously.
EoZ Goku is Kid Buu~SSJ3 Z Goku tier. Z ended with super vegito > All. Meaning he was still superior to EoZ SSJ3 Goku(SSG/SSB weren't around back then). Not below EoZ base.
Is this based on anything objective? Seems as though you just made this up. We have no reason to believe SSJ3 Goku EoZ is weaker than SSJ Vegetto or vice versa. No comparison is ever made between them so obviously we don't know how they compare.
Anime DBS is super inconsistent. So my viewpoint isn't simply wrong.
Anime DBS can be inconsistent but it is more so just inconsistent with your preconceived notions and head canon rather than being especially inconsistent with itself. Your viewpoint is simply wrong because it ignores an abundance of feats and statements in the show.
There is a reason people support the 2 base theory. As sometimes Goku base is Z tier, and in other time he is SSG tier. As the instances supporting the Z base come after the instances of him being SSG tier a lot of people believe the whole SSG base is retconned.
Two base theory is the definition of convoluted head canon. Nothing supporting it whatsoever and it is constantly contradicted.
Training with whis didn't make their bases exponentially more powerful. It was the absorption of SSG to the base that made it. This thing never happened in the manga and thus Goku and Vegeta both had fodder bases even after whis training.
The manga and anime are separate continuities that do not apply to each other. In the anime, Goku "absorbs" SSG and Vegeta trains with Whis for 6 months, in both instances they become massively stronger than their Z selves as stated multiple times.
