The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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GreatSaiyaman123
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:36 pm

ricky84 wrote:Base Kefla vs SSJR Goku Black
Kefla stomps. Anime wise Goku needed UI to defeat her, and manga wise she overpowered PSSJB characters who can fight evenly with Merged Zamasu.
Hit vs Base Vegito (ToP)
Fusions >> Anything a fusee can pull off, and Hit is like SSJB Tier (PSSJB in the Manga)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs Super Buu
SSJ3 Goku by himself would need a Kaioken x20 to match Super Boo, let alone SPC.
SSJ2 Future Gohan vs Kamicollo
Piccolo stomps. As a SSJ, Gohan was much weaker than Android Arc Piccolo (Gohan is about equals with Trunks when he killed Freeza, and Piccolo is strong enough to take on guys who can take on this Trunks). Both SSJ2 and Kami fusion are a 2x boost, so Piccolo kills him. SSJ2 Gohan vs Pre Merge Piccolo would be a better match IMO.
Noah wrote:New match:

- Android 19 vs. Dodoria (equal power, limited stamina)
19 sucks him dry.
Nineteen wrote:Buutenks vs. Gogeta (Movie 12)
Gogeta stomps. Movie characters scale far higher than their manga selves.
Angelus wrote:SSJ Goku (Yardrat) VS 5th Form Cooler
4th fourm Coola was stronger than Freeza, given how he thought he could take on someone who killed Freeza without transforming. He eats SSJ Goku alive.
Meta-Cooler VS Cell Games Piccolo
Metal Coola stomps.
Base Vegeta (Mecha Frieza Arrival) VS Salza, Niez, Doore
Given how Piccolo by himself smoked those fools, Vegeta isn't going to break a sweat here. Salza may give him some trouble like he did to Piccolo, but Vegeta still has the upperhand.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Angelus » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:52 pm

Added 1 more lol:
Great Ape Gohan (Namek Saga, Pre-Guru Unlock) VS Dr. Wheelo, Misokatsun, Kishime, Ebifurya (No tail-cutting or grabbing)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Androids Saga Base Gohan VS Youthful Lord Slug

SSJ Goku (Yardrat) VS 5th Form Cooler

Meta-Cooler VS Cell Games Piccolo

Manga Piccolo, not the anime filler (Mecha Frieza Arrival) VS Buffed Garlic Jr. and the Spice Boys (All Makyan Star Enhanced)

Base Vegeta (Mecha Frieza Arrival) VS Salza, Niez, Doore

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Nineteen » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:14 am

Angelus wrote:Great Ape Gohan (Namek Saga, Pre-Guru Unlock) VS Dr. Wheelo
Aren't these two evenly matched in terms of power levels? IIRC, Gohan on Namek pre-Guru was 3,200, and I'm sure some source or another lists Wheelo at 32,000.

If that's so I still think Wheelo wins handily. Gohan is a mindless brute as Oozaru.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AhmadHendie » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:46 am

ricky84 wrote:
AhmadHendie wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
There is no retcon of Saiyan-beyond God. Just because you don't like the idea of base Goku and Vegeta soloing Z & GT doesn't mean it was retconned. Since nearly every arc after BoG constantly portrays Goku and Vegeta in their bases as stronger than BoG SSG Goku. Like when a defenseless base Goku and Vegeta survive an accidental attack from Beerus that would have killed BoG Goku (noted by Whis), or like when Copy-Vegeta in base casually destroyed SSJ3 Gotenks (which was 2 arcs after BoG), or Base Black being strong enough to tank hits from SSB Vegeta (at first). There is no way any of that would have happened if Goku and Vegeta didn't get any massive amp to their bases.
it is not that I dont like the idea of saiyan beyond god. its that base caulifla/Cabba/Gohan/Future trunks should be nowhere near it.

F. Trunks SSJ2 was pushing SSJ2 Goku back. trunks never did the ritual so his base shouldn't have been equal to a Saiyan beyond God Goku even if he trained for his life

for example we see in episode 75 that SSJ1 Gohan(who was stated to be weaker than his Z self) had a slight advantage over a SSJ1 Goku.

the same Gohan lost to piccolo at SSJ2 in episode 89.

once gohan regained his Z mystic form he beated Goku SSJ2. he couldnt have surpassed his Z self because the guy regained his mystic form before a few hours of his fight.

all these instances come later in the show than either the monaka fight or the SSJ3 Gotenks fight. suggesting a retcon to me

unlike Goku and Vegeta black has God Ki in his base. that's why Blacks SSJ1 = SSGSS.


manga scaling makes sense continuty wise. the anime is inconsistent in the scaling department, sclaling him early to be above SSG in base and later to be around his Z base like the manga.

I would take the word of the writer until its contradicted by another writer or a statement later in the show.


if Goku SSG is universal. than jiren should be zeno level multiversal and their would be no point in the whole god of destruction thing sence half the cast are universal too if we believe Saiyan beyound god. which is why the retcon makes sense.

battle of god and its feats were writing under the impression of Goku being 60% of beerus. later they nerfed SSG to be below 1%.


for me if you are below beerus in power you are below universal. if you are around 75% of beerus you are -universal(can destroy most of the planets on the universe, but not the universe itself)

even with a supposedly anime Saiyan beyond God base. Goku is not soloing GT.
1. Gohan continued to for another day after beating Piccolo with his regained Mystic form. And Gohan now is clearly SSB level, even the narrator said that Gohan and SSB Goku were evenly matched. You are making the false assumption that transformations are tiers of powers with your argument about Gohan vs SSJ2 Goku.

2. Feats speak for themselves. There is no evidence for a retcon. Super consistently shows base Goku and Vegeta>>>>>>>All of Z. There isn't even a single line of dialogue that says their bases are only around were they were in Buu saga, thats just baseless headcanon made by people who don't want to believe base DBS Goku>>Z & GT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlThF-iGsdw Besides, Goku and Vegeta absorbing SSG into base is in the manga also. That's the point of this image: https://pm1.narvii.com/6359/9da96e36a79 ... b0a_hq.jpg

3. Beerus's power was never retconned either, people just don't pay attention to dialogue. Beerus at the end of the BoG arc told Whis that he lied about how much power he used against Goku the whole time.

4. There have been multiple universal/4D and even 5D feats and statements from characters far below Beerus in Super since BoG: Hit's time hax, Goku Black literally ripping through Space and Time with his scythe, Kefla claiming she could one shot a universe (which by scaling from BoG should by easy for her), suppressed Jiren casually transcending Time, 1st Omen Goku shaking Infinity, Infinite Zamasu (who is weaker than suppressed Jiren and 1st Omen Goku) affecting multiple universes and timelines, etc. All of this says there was no retcon. Its never said anywhere in the show itself nor in any official guide that only Zeno is multiversal, especially since the massively weaker Infinite Zamasu has a multiversal and 5D feat.

5. And even if you don't believe the whole saiyan beyond god thing, BoG SSG Goku should be enough to solo GT by feats and scaling, since SSJ4 Goku still wasn't even stronger than Buu saga Vegito for half of GT, and Omega Shenron could only destroy the universe via chain reaction like Buuhan.

Would you really believe a writer (Toshio) who's own opinions never got confirmed by Toriyama and got explicitly debunked by the show itself after he said them?
1 Gohan lost to piccolo at ssj2. the same gohan had the upper hand against goku when both where ssj1 in episode 75. gohan was stated below his Z self. so it could logically be scaled that at the very highest ssj1 DBS Goku = SSJ3 Goku(keep in mind the anime scales Ssj3 Goku to being close to gohan)after ToP goku base is close to his SSj3 from Z but not quite there yet. I am not complaining here about gohan being SSB level(it makes no sense but that’s a fact). just that Goku fight with Gohan In episode 75 is enough for us to state that base Goku is weaker than base EoZ Goku

2 feats might speak for you but not for me. if we go by that then nappa destroyed a city, but SSB Vegito Final Kamehameha didn’t. and we would also have to scale Saiyan saga Vegeta to be above Golden oozaru baby who failed to destroy the earth. and no the manga states Goku and Vegeta as having weak bases and relaying on transformations.


3 I am talking about that this isnt beerus getting buffed but SSG Goku getting nerfed. if beerus at below 1% is universal than his full power should allow him to one shot the 12 universes. BoG was written with Goku being 60% of beerus. in DBS they had to nerf SSG or else SSB would be broken


4 GT base Goku was stated to be able to destroy the after world to smithernes. later base Gt goku gets way more power than that. people where arguing that Xeno Goku was 7D here or something like that. and he ended up being equal to a post ToP SSB Goku

5 GT Goku “Change” base form will be more than enough for SSG. whether he was straight up invincible or stronger than omega doesn’t matter as he will win either way .GT was a goku wanking festival, by the end of every arc his base form surpasses his SSJ3/SSJ4 from the former arc.SSJ4 Gogeta had to power up to defelct the negative karma ball,yet GT base Goku took it head on without a scratch.

and by the way super vegito from Z is fodder to GT. SD Base Goku can take him even if he powered up to SSJ3.the section taking about vegito being stronger than a super saiyan 4 was a transformation section, the boost from goku and vegeta fusing into super vegito is perhaps stronger than either one of them going SSJ4. neither Z Vegito nor SSJ4 Goku where specified.

Super baby 1 > Z Vegito.


the statement from the writer isn’t contradicted. SSG/SSB/SSBKK where never stated to be strong enough to destroy the universe later. kefla being universal makes sense if she is above first time ui omen Goku(who is around 60% of beerus)

I follow the manga DBS scaling. the anime is inconsistent about scaling.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AhmadHendie » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:30 am

ricky84 wrote:
AhmadHendie wrote:
Nineteen wrote:Buutenks vs. Gogeta (Movie 12)
base Gogeta would win.

SSJ Gogeta stomps. he will one shot him with the star-dust breaker.

ricky84 wrote:Base Kefla vs SSJR Goku Black
Hit vs Base Vegito (ToP)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs Super Buu
SSJ2 Future Gohan vs Kamicollo
Infinite Zamasu vs 1st UI Omen Goku
1 diffently black. an argument can be made for even base black(if we scale kefla = fresh SSG Goku), since black is base goku with god ki

2 Base Vegito .

3 buu

4 Gohan

5 Zamasu in indestructable. he wins
God ki has nothing to do with strength. Just because you have god ki doesn't mean you are automatically stronger than someone who doesn't. Hit, Golden Freeza, Aniraza and even Jiren don't have god ki, yet all of the them are SSB level or higher. Whereas all Kais are born with god ki yet most are weaker than a Cell Jr.

And just because you have bad stamina doesn't mean you are weaker than normal or can't get stronger. Goku was fatigued on Namek after throwing the Spirit Bomb yet still managed to become a SSJ. Goku was fatigued everytime he uses UI, yet he still got stronger after each time he uses it. The SSJ2 Goku that fought Kale and Caulifla in ep.113 was outright stated by several characters to be stronger than previous versions (despite having low stamina).

Claiming low stamina makes you weaker is like saying Android 17 is omnipotent because he has infinite stamina. People mainly use the "Goku was tired" argument to downplay Kale/Caulifla/Kefla, even though Goku was fatigued in all of his fights since episode 110 yet its never used to downplay Jiren or even Aniraza.
God Ki is a huge boost. you need to raise your mortal ki to very high amounts to compete with someone with a lower amount of God Ki. black is literally Goku but with a God ki base form. Black's SSJ1 was confirmed to be rose. base black is the equivalent of Goku's SSG.

that's why black can sustain SSR for long times while Goku can't sustain SSB. because sustaining SSJ1 is much easier than going SSG to access god ki and then going SSJ1 on top of that.

I said an argument can be made. if a fresh SSG can beat base kefla than base black can do it. if he can't than base black would lose. not saying that base black would win, just that if someone believes that SSG Goku could have defeated base Kefla then he should also believe that base black can beat her.
Last edited by AhmadHendie on Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:33 am

AhmadHendie wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
AhmadHendie wrote:
it is not that I dont like the idea of saiyan beyond god. its that base caulifla/Cabba/Gohan/Future trunks should be nowhere near it.

F. Trunks SSJ2 was pushing SSJ2 Goku back. trunks never did the ritual so his base shouldn't have been equal to a Saiyan beyond God Goku even if he trained for his life

for example we see in episode 75 that SSJ1 Gohan(who was stated to be weaker than his Z self) had a slight advantage over a SSJ1 Goku.

the same Gohan lost to piccolo at SSJ2 in episode 89.

once gohan regained his Z mystic form he beated Goku SSJ2. he couldnt have surpassed his Z self because the guy regained his mystic form before a few hours of his fight.

all these instances come later in the show than either the monaka fight or the SSJ3 Gotenks fight. suggesting a retcon to me

unlike Goku and Vegeta black has God Ki in his base. that's why Blacks SSJ1 = SSGSS.


manga scaling makes sense continuty wise. the anime is inconsistent in the scaling department, sclaling him early to be above SSG in base and later to be around his Z base like the manga.

I would take the word of the writer until its contradicted by another writer or a statement later in the show.


if Goku SSG is universal. than jiren should be zeno level multiversal and their would be no point in the whole god of destruction thing sence half the cast are universal too if we believe Saiyan beyound god. which is why the retcon makes sense.

battle of god and its feats were writing under the impression of Goku being 60% of beerus. later they nerfed SSG to be below 1%.


for me if you are below beerus in power you are below universal. if you are around 75% of beerus you are -universal(can destroy most of the planets on the universe, but not the universe itself)

even with a supposedly anime Saiyan beyond God base. Goku is not soloing GT.
1. Gohan continued to for another day after beating Piccolo with his regained Mystic form. And Gohan now is clearly SSB level, even the narrator said that Gohan and SSB Goku were evenly matched. You are making the false assumption that transformations are tiers of powers with your argument about Gohan vs SSJ2 Goku.

2. Feats speak for themselves. There is no evidence for a retcon. Super consistently shows base Goku and Vegeta>>>>>>>All of Z. There isn't even a single line of dialogue that says their bases are only around were they were in Buu saga, thats just baseless headcanon made by people who don't want to believe base DBS Goku>>Z & GT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlThF-iGsdw Besides, Goku and Vegeta absorbing SSG into base is in the manga also. That's the point of this image: https://pm1.narvii.com/6359/9da96e36a79 ... b0a_hq.jpg

3. Beerus's power was never retconned either, people just don't pay attention to dialogue. Beerus at the end of the BoG arc told Whis that he lied about how much power he used against Goku the whole time.

4. There have been multiple universal/4D and even 5D feats and statements from characters far below Beerus in Super since BoG: Hit's time hax, Goku Black literally ripping through Space and Time with his scythe, Kefla claiming she could one shot a universe (which by scaling from BoG should by easy for her), suppressed Jiren casually transcending Time, 1st Omen Goku shaking Infinity, Infinite Zamasu (who is weaker than suppressed Jiren and 1st Omen Goku) affecting multiple universes and timelines, etc. All of this says there was no retcon. Its never said anywhere in the show itself nor in any official guide that only Zeno is multiversal, especially since the massively weaker Infinite Zamasu has a multiversal and 5D feat.

5. And even if you don't believe the whole saiyan beyond god thing, BoG SSG Goku should be enough to solo GT by feats and scaling, since SSJ4 Goku still wasn't even stronger than Buu saga Vegito for half of GT, and Omega Shenron could only destroy the universe via chain reaction like Buuhan.

Would you really believe a writer (Toshio) who's own opinions never got confirmed by Toriyama and got explicitly debunked by the show itself after he said them?
1 Gohan lost to piccolo at ssj2. the same gohan had the upper hand against goku when both where ssj1 in episode 75. gohan was stated below his Z self. so it could logically be scaled that at the very highest ssj1 DBS Goku = SSJ3 Goku(keep in mind the anime scales Ssj3 Goku to being close to gohan)after ToP goku base is close to his SSj3 from Z but not quite there yet. I am not complaining here about gohan being SSB level(it makes no sense but that’s a fact). just that Goku fight with Gohan In episode 75 is enough for us to state that base Goku is weaker than base EoZ Goku

2 feats might speak for you but not for me. if we go by that then nappa destroyed a city, but SSB Vegito Final Kamehameha didn’t. and we would also have to scale Saiyan saga Vegeta to be above Golden oozaru baby who failed to destroy the earth. and no the manga states Goku and Vegeta as having weak bases and relaying on transformations.


3 I am talking about that this isnt beerus getting buffed but SSG Goku getting nerfed. if beerus at below 1% is universal than his full power should allow him to one shot the 12 universes. BoG was written with Goku being 60% of beerus. in DBS they had to nerf SSG or else SSB would be broken


4 GT base Goku was stated to be able to destroy the after world to smithernes. later base Gt goku gets way more power than that. people where arguing that Xeno Goku was 7D here or something like that. and he ended up being equal to a post ToP SSB Goku

5 GT Goku “Change” base form will be more than enough for SSG. whether he was straight up invincible or stronger than omega doesn’t matter as he will win either way .GT was a goku wanking festival, by the end of every arc his base form surpasses his SSJ3/SSJ4 from the former arc.SSJ4 Gogeta had to power up to defelct the negative karma ball,yet GT base Goku took it head on without a scratch.

and by the way super vegito from Z is fodder to GT. SD Base Goku can take him even if he powered up to SSJ3.the section taking about vegito being stronger than a super saiyan 4 was a transformation section, the boost from goku and vegeta fusing into super vegito is perhaps stronger than either one of them going SSJ4. neither Z Vegito nor SSJ4 Goku where specified.

Super baby 1 > Z Vegito.


the statement from the writer isn’t contradicted. SSG/SSB/SSBKK where never stated to be strong enough to destroy the universe later. kefla being universal makes sense if she is above first time ui omen Goku(who is around 60% of beerus)

I follow the manga DBS scaling. the anime is inconsistent about scaling.
1. Goku was holding back against Gohan in episode 75, just like with Krillin in the ToP.

2. You ever heard of ki control? That easily dismisses your complaints here. Even official sources like the Daizenshuu uses feats to scale characters. And nowhere in either the anime nor manga did Whis say that (Beerus later says in the anime that both Goku and Vegeta are emitting more power than before while they were in their bases). Whis point was that he wants them to reach hakaishin levels of power with their bases alone, kinda like Broly in the new movie.
http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?t=8638

3. Again, ki control is the reason why these characters aren't blowing up universes everytime they throw a punch. Your argument is the same one downplayers use to deny that DBZ characters could even blow up planets.

4. What the hell are you talking about here? Could you explain this?

5. There is absolutely no evidence for any of that GT Goku wank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BO-tdTpDKk
And no, base GT Goku was almost killed by the Negative Karma Ball. Base GT Goku is at best around Super Buu level, which is far weaker than the power base Copy-Vegeta showed. And GT Perfect flies was comparing characters, not the boost from transformations. That fact that it considers Buu arc Vegito (who BoG Goku surpassed)
comparable to SSJ4 at all is very telling.


"the statement from the writer isn’t contradicted. SSG/SSB/SSBKK where never stated to be strong enough to destroy the universe later. kefla being universal makes sense if she is above first time ui omen Goku(who is around 60% of beerus)"

This argument is an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy, since you could just as easily point out that it was never stated that SSG/SSB couldn't blow up a universe in the show itself either. And Toshio's opinions on other things HAS been contradicted. Also, the numbers you have are made up.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:40 am

AhmadHendie wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
AhmadHendie wrote:
base Gogeta would win.

SSJ Gogeta stomps. he will one shot him with the star-dust breaker.




1 diffently black. an argument can be made for even base black(if we scale kefla = fresh SSG Goku), since black is base goku with god ki

2 Base Vegito .

3 buu

4 Gohan

5 Zamasu in indestructable. he wins
God ki has nothing to do with strength. Just because you have god ki doesn't mean you are automatically stronger than someone who doesn't. Hit, Golden Freeza, Aniraza and even Jiren don't have god ki, yet all of the them are SSB level or higher. Whereas all Kais are born with god ki yet most are weaker than a Cell Jr.

And just because you have bad stamina doesn't mean you are weaker than normal or can't get stronger. Goku was fatigued on Namek after throwing the Spirit Bomb yet still managed to become a SSJ. Goku was fatigued everytime he uses UI, yet he still got stronger after each time he uses it. The SSJ2 Goku that fought Kale and Caulifla in ep.113 was outright stated by several characters to be stronger than previous versions (despite having low stamina).

Claiming low stamina makes you weaker is like saying Android 17 is omnipotent because he has infinite stamina. People mainly use the "Goku was tired" argument to downplay Kale/Caulifla/Kefla, even though Goku was fatigued in all of his fights since episode 110 yet its never used to downplay Jiren or even Aniraza.
God Ki is a huge boost. you can raise your mortal ki to compete with someone with a lower amount of God Ki. black is literally Goku but with a God ki base form. Black's SSJ1 was confirmed to be rose. base black is the equivalent of Goku's SSG.

that's why black can sustain SSR for long times while Goku can't. because sustaining SSJ1 is much easier than going SSG to access god ki and then going SSJ1 on top of that.

I said an argument can be made. if a fresh SSG can beat base kefla than base black can do it. if he can't than base black would lose
It isn't stated anywhere that getting God ki boost your power level. If it does then why is King Kai weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta? You are making the false assumption that god ki is a separate supply of ki from mortal ki when in really god ki is merely a "state" of a person's ki, like how SSJ is a state of a saiyan.

Also, the low stamina downplay has been debunked several times, since Goku was still getting stronger despite having bad stamina. Base Kefla completely stomped a Post-Omen ToP SSG Goku, Goku Black doesn't stand a chance against her (unless he drags it out and keeps getting zenkais).
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AhmadHendie » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:41 am

ricky84 wrote:
1. Goku was holding back against Gohan in episode 75, just like with Krillin in the ToP.

2. You ever heard of ki control? That easily dismisses your complaints here. Even official sources like the Daizenshuu uses feats to scale characters. And nowhere in either the anime nor manga did Whis say that (Beerus later says in the anime that both Goku and Vegeta are emitting more power than before while they were in their bases). Whis point was that he wants them to reach hakaishin levels of power with their bases alone, kinda like Broly in the new movie.
http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?t=8638

3. Again, ki control is the reason why these characters aren't blowing up universes everytime they throw a punch. Your argument is the same one downplayers use to deny that DBZ characters could even blow up planets.

4. What the hell are you talking about here? Could you explain this?

5. There is absolutely no evidence for any of that GT Goku wank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BO-tdTpDKk
And no, base GT Goku was almost killed by the Negative Karma Ball. Base GT Goku is at best around Super Buu level, which is far weaker than the power base Copy-Vegeta showed. And GT Perfect flies was comparing characters, not the boost from transformations. That fact that it considers Buu arc Vegito (who BoG Goku surpassed)
comparable to SSJ4 at all is very telling.


"the statement from the writer isn’t contradicted. SSG/SSB/SSBKK where never stated to be strong enough to destroy the universe later. kefla being universal makes sense if she is above first time ui omen Goku(who is around 60% of beerus)"

This argument is an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy, since you could just as easily point out that it was never stated that SSG/SSB couldn't blow up a universe in the show itself either. And Toshio's opinions on other things HAS been contradicted. Also, the numbers you have are made up.
1 his base form alone should have been able to destroy gohan if it was above SSG. is he holding his SSJ1 state to be far below his base form ?


2 Golden Oozaru baby couldn't destroy the earth. if we scale him by that we would have to put namek Vegeta above him.Manga Goku base is stronger than his buu saga one but not that far away , which is faithful to end of Z Goku being only slightly above kid buu.


3 for me its logical that half the cast is not universal, which is an opinion supported by a DBS writer. You can believe in Saiyan beyond god in the anime. I personally don't

4 in one of the super 17 episodes base GT goku power up in hell causing the afterworld to shake. king yama states :"with power like that he will blow this place up to smithereens, AND HE is not even fighting". the afterworld is half the universe at the time of GT.

5 I disagree with chuck video. first he scales base Gohan to be equal to SSJ3 Goku while most people would scale him to be at LEAST equal to ultimate gohan since he kept training. second he is applying DBGT Goku's huge zenkais to super goku despite having no proof of that. there is no proof that SSJ1 Goku from RoF is stronger than Post ritual SSJ3 Goku from BoG. while there is proof of GT Goku getting those huge zenkais in S17 and SD sagas. this is just in the first few minutes.

the Vegito then is mentioned in the transformations section. SSJ1/2/3 than Super vegito and SSJ4. GT SSJ1 Super Vegito is Perhaps stronger than a GT SSJ4 Goku. Z SSJ1 Vegito is perhaps Stronger than A SSJ4 Z Goku

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHKBpt1luYI


just to but thing into perspective

baby saga

Super baby Vegeta 2>= Majuub >Super Baby Vegeta 1(stated to be the strongest Saiyan power in history,AKA above Super Vegito) >Baby Vegeta> SSJ3 Goku

S17 Saga

SSJ1 Goku>S17 >>>>>Majuub

SD saga base goku got a boost from absorbing gohan,goten,trunks,pan,Majuub powers plus all the zenkai boosts. if we assume a conservative x10 boost he would be above SSJ3 Z Vegito in base.


than he got another boost or a "change" form at the end of the SD saga.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXsxTdRU60c

skip to 5:00 to see base goku tanking the negative karma ball and to omega's and everyone shock.

in the original Japanese version pan states that Goku "he's all powered up". suggesting that goku wasn't invincible he just powered up.

than he got another powerup in form of absorbing the dragon balls. which might give him a power up(like Syn to Omega powerup) or hax.

GT is A terrible Goku wanking festival.I like super a lot more, but DBS Goku is not soloing GT any time soon. I would personally scale him like the heros manga to be equal to a SD SSJ4 Goku in his SSB Form.
Last edited by AhmadHendie on Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:29 am, edited 10 times in total.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AhmadHendie » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:52 am

ricky84 wrote:
It isn't stated anywhere that getting God ki boost your power level. If it does then why is King Kai weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta? You are making the false assumption that god ki is a separate supply of ki from mortal ki when in really god ki is merely a "state" of a person's ki, like how SSJ is a state of a saiyan.

Also, the low stamina downplay has been debunked several times, since Goku was still getting stronger despite having bad stamina. Base Kefla completely stomped a Post-Omen ToP SSG Goku, Goku Black doesn't stand a chance against her (unless he drags it out and keeps getting zenkais).
in order to understand blacks power you need to answer this question. which form is stronger :

SSGSS

SSJ1

blacks SSJ1(SSR) is just as strong as Goku SSGSS. because black has god ki from the get go while Goku needs the SSG transformation to get it.


base Kefla is not beating SSR Black. and black has the potential to Go SSJ2 and SSJ3 since he doesn't need to worry about the SSG ki Drain.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:25 pm

2018 and some people still believe DBZ Vegito could do any damage to SSJ4 Goku lol.

It was clearly stated that Super Baby 1 > SSJ Vegito
Great Ape Baby was at least 10 times stronger than Super Baby 2 which makes both him and Goku SSJ4 stronger than Vegito SSJ3 (Buu saga).
Majuub forced Super Baby 2 to go full-power and lost ON PURPOSE meaning he is also easily above DBZ Vegito and leagues beyond SSJ3 Goku from this arc

Then in Super 17 saga
SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku are already a lot stronger than Majuub
And Majuub didn't get weaker. He completely destroyed Rildo in single ki blast and Rildo was stronger than Buu.

Only someone insane would think SSJ Vegito from Buu saga could ever beat SSJ4 Goku from Baby saga not to mention further sagas where it's clearly confirmed SSJ Goku alone is way stronger than SSJ Vegito was.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:20 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:2018 and some people still believe DBZ Vegito could do any damage to SSJ4 Goku lol.

It was clearly stated that Super Baby 1 > SSJ Vegito
Great Ape Baby was at least 10 times stronger than Super Baby 2 which makes both him and Goku SSJ4 stronger than Vegito SSJ3 (Buu saga).
Majuub forced Super Baby 2 to go full-power and lost ON PURPOSE meaning he is also easily above DBZ Vegito and leagues beyond SSJ3 Goku from this arc

Then in Super 17 saga
SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku are already a lot stronger than Majuub
And Majuub didn't get weaker. He completely destroyed Rildo in single ki blast and Rildo was stronger than Buu.

Only someone insane would think SSJ Vegito from Buu saga could ever beat SSJ4 Goku from Baby saga not to mention further sagas where it's clearly confirmed SSJ Goku alone is way stronger than SSJ Vegito was.
How do you figure Majuub lost on purpose?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by sunsetshimmer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:52 am

PFM18 wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:2018 and some people still believe DBZ Vegito could do any damage to SSJ4 Goku lol.

It was clearly stated that Super Baby 1 > SSJ Vegito
Great Ape Baby was at least 10 times stronger than Super Baby 2 which makes both him and Goku SSJ4 stronger than Vegito SSJ3 (Buu saga).
Majuub forced Super Baby 2 to go full-power and lost ON PURPOSE meaning he is also easily above DBZ Vegito and leagues beyond SSJ3 Goku from this arc

Then in Super 17 saga
SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku are already a lot stronger than Majuub
And Majuub didn't get weaker. He completely destroyed Rildo in single ki blast and Rildo was stronger than Buu.

Only someone insane would think SSJ Vegito from Buu saga could ever beat SSJ4 Goku from Baby saga not to mention further sagas where it's clearly confirmed SSJ Goku alone is way stronger than SSJ Vegito was.
How do you figure Majuub lost on purpose?
It was clearly stated in show that he lost on purpose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynw1rePhxpo
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AhmadHendie » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:05 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
It was clearly stated in show that he lost on purpose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynw1rePhxpo
If we scale SSJ1 goku(S17) to being x10 stronger than majuub. And then scale majuub to being equal to super baby 2.than we would end up with SSJ1 Goku(S17) ~ SSJ4 Goku(Baby)~ golden oozaru baby.

This kind of zenkai boost is insane. Even black zenkais aren't that huge.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Green » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:13 am

Berserker1921 wrote:1. GoD Toppo vs Hit? (No rules, killing allowed)

2. 17 vs Dyspo?

3. Gohan, Trunks, 17 vs Kefla? (Kefla is only fused for 2 minutes)

4. Aniraza vs Dyspo and Toppo? (No GoD form)

5. Jiren vs Beerus? (No Hakai)?
1. Toppo murks him so hard it isn't even funny
2. Dyspo goes Lightspeed Mode and kills him
3. Assuming this is Future Trunks, he could asspull another Genkidama out of thin air and cut her in half... nah just kidding.
4. Aniraza overpowers them
5. Jiren would win even without restrictions.
1. Base Kefla vs SSJR Goku Black
2. Hit vs Base Vegito (ToP)
3. KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs Super Buu
4. SSJ2 Future Gohan vs Kamicollo
5. Infinite Zamasu vs 1st UI Omen Goku
1. Black slaughters her
2. lol
3. I don't have astronomical gaps between Goku and Gotenks/Gohan, so SPC takes this very easily.
4. Piccolo teaches him a lesson
5. Another horrible mismatch

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:00 pm

AhmadHendie wrote:Is piccolo also SSG/SSB tier ? He defeated a SSJ2 gohan in episode 89. The same gohan who had the upper hand while being SSJ1 to a SSJ1 Goku(who has a supposedly a Super vegito base).
I'm sorry this is just insane. No, pre-training Gohan is not anything close to SSG/SSB and so it does not make Piccolo on that level by extension. He defeated an inferior version of Gohan which says nothing about his power compared to the godly transformations. No, Gohan does not have the upper hand against SSJ Goku, they were even. Not only were they even but Goku was literally stated to be holding back so this says nothing about how Gohan compares to Goku. None of this is evidence of a retcon whatsoever.
What about episode 75 Gohan ? Is he SSB tier despite being stated to be below Z gohan ?
Again, Goku was holding back and there wasn't any implication that he was SSB tier even if you don't consider the fact that Goku was holding back.
There is zero proof of gohan getting vastly stronger than his Z self. The guy got his old Z power in episode 89 and you want me to believe that he went to SSB realms of power within a few hours in episode 90 ?
The "old power" that was being referred to probably just refers to his Ultimate form not that level of power itself. Which would make his boost during episode 90 not as large, but either way, the fact that he could even remotely compete with SSB and SSB tier fighters during the ToP, shows that he is thousands of times stronger than his Z self. That is downright ridiculous to assume he is the same as his Buu Arc self, despite being able to compete with Goku's godly transformation.(Albeit, still weaker than this godly transformation.)
What about trunks ? Do you logically believe the guy could Get to a super vegito Base too ??
Yes, he did. He trained for literally 14 years. Either way, that is the implication that is never contradicted. Him being able to compete with Goku clearly shows this.
Instead of high balling every character to the moon alongside goku based on two filler instances with no torayama outline. Why don't you logically scale him based on acctual Canon material.
There's no high balling. It is simply being conistent. Also, there is no filler in the DBS anime. VegettoEX explained this multiple times. So I AM scaling him based on actual canon material.

This is just factually incorrect. Like I pointed out last time, even if we strictly consider the fights that show off Base Goku's insane power, there's a couple other instances other than that which show Goku's base being superior to anything from Z. That being his fight against a vastly improved Majin Buu in base and his fight with Freeza who was at a bare minimum a hundred times stronger than everybody else there. This simply corroborates with wht is shown during BoG in which his SSJ is boosted to be stronger than SSG and Vegeta received the same results in his training with Whis.
The threats to earth were Frieza and Beerus. Both of them where delt with in a day and later became allies. The only major threat(Zamasu) affected the future earth
The fact that it happened over the course of one day is completely irrelevant. It still threatened the Earth alongside the entire Universe being in jeopardy during the Universe Survival arc, and by extension the Earth was in jeopardy.
I am not talking about Goku being excited. I am talking about the fight between him and Uub. Uub putted up a fight despite being a child who doesn't know how to fight. That's why people scale base EoZ Goku to be around his old SSJ3 Z self. Gotenks is 10 times stronger than Kid buu, are you saying that Goku can body Gotenks but can't body a vastly weaker character. Or is it just Toei filler high balling Goku like we are used to.
I'm sure Goku could have bodied Uub if he wanted to. That didn't appear to be the intention at the time but going off of what we know now, from an In-Universe perspective that still makes sense.
Saiyan beyond god(absorbing the power of SSG to his base/SSJ1) is retconned. The only boosts his base got is from training with whis. Which means he has a Z level base(strong enough to close the gap between SSJ3 Goku and Gohan but weak to compete with buutenks and buuhan), which is what the manga and late anime episodes follow.
The premise of a "Saiyan Beyond God" has been retconned from the movies because they cannot use God Ki in their base like they could in the movie. However, the premise eestablished in BoG that SSJ(post-ritual)>SSG still holds and is never contradicted. The premise that the later anime episodes follow that Goku has Z levels of strength is a simply a result of your misinterpretations, ignoring of feats/statements, and your head canon. I realize people can have different viewpoints but in this case you are simply wrong.
Base Kefla vs SSJR Goku Black
Hit vs Base Vegito (ToP)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs Super Buu
SSJ2 Future Gohan vs Kamicollo
Infinite Zamasu vs 1st UI Omen Goku
Goku Black wins. Goku's SSG had not gotten to that level yet so Base Kefla defeating SSG Goku does not indicate he is superior to Goku Black.
Base Vegetto wins from what I can tell from potara fusion.
Super Buu still has about double the power of Cell in this scenario.
Piccolo wins in a close one.
Well Zamasu is immortla and UI Omen has very limited stamina so Zamasu would just wait it out and kill him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AhmadHendie » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:39 pm

PFM18 wrote:
I'm sorry this is just insane. No, pre-training Gohan is not anything close to SSG/SSB and so it does not make Piccolo on that level by extension. He defeated an inferior version of Gohan which says nothing about his power compared to the godly transformations. No, Gohan does not have the upper hand against SSJ Goku, they were even. Not only were they even but Goku was literally stated to be holding back so this says nothing about how Gohan compares to Goku. None of this is evidence of a retcon whatsoever.
The only clear hit in that fight was landed by Gohan.

If base Goku is above SSG than he should have bodied him , at BASE. Unless Goku is holding back his SSJ1 to be far below his base form and is only transforming for cosmetics. Which makes zero sense

We also have trunks who was pushing him back. Is SSJ1 Trunks above SSG too. Does he also body SSJ3 Vegito ?

Goku going SSG in ToP is evidence of the retcon for me. As you can't absorb SSG to your base than go SSG on top of that.

It seems the anime will follow the manga route in scaling base Goku.

The "old power" that was being referred to probably just refers to his Ultimate form not that level of power itself. Which would make his boost during episode 90 not as large, but either way, the fact that he could even remotely compete with SSB and SSB tier fighters during the ToP, shows that he is thousands of times stronger than his Z self. That is downright ridiculous to assume he is the same as his Buu Arc self, despite being able to compete with Goku's godly transformation.(Albeit, still weaker than this godly transformation.)
Gohan didn't make a statement about it being more powerful than he remembered so everything you said above is head Canon.

Ultimate Gohan being above SSJ2 Goku makes sense with his Z power.

He is noticeably stronger in ToP. But not in episode 90

Yes, he did. He trained for literally 14 years. Either way, that is the implication that is never contradicted. Him being able to compete with Goku clearly shows this.
Nope

Future Trunks world Timeline.

Trunks killed cell in year 788.
Trunks struggled to beat "tough opponent" dabura at around 790~793(couple of years before black)
Trunks meets black at 795.
Trunks Goes to the past at 796.

Source: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Timeline

There is no way he went from dabura level at SSJ2 to super vegito in base in 3~5 years with training with supreme kai. I would be suprised if he even surpassed Super buu at his absolute max power.


Inb4 Goku was holding back against trunks too excuses.

He isn't reaching above BoG SSG levels even if he acctualy trained with supreme kai for 14 years after struggling with dabura.


The only reason Base goku MIGHT be that strong is that he did the ritual. Without the ritual base trunks is fodder.

There's no high balling. It is simply being conistent. Also, there is no filler in the DBS anime. VegettoEX explained this multiple times. So I AM scaling him based on actual canon material.

This is just factually incorrect. Like I pointed out last time, even if we strictly consider the fights that show off Base Goku's insane power, there's a couple other instances other than that which show Goku's base being superior to anything from Z. That being his fight against a vastly improved Majin Buu in base and his fight with Freeza who was at a bare minimum a hundred times stronger than everybody else there. This simply corroborates with wht is shown during BoG in which his SSJ is boosted to be stronger than SSG and Vegeta received the same results in his training with Whis.
Scaling base trunks at super vegito level is massively high balling him to the moon.

The fact that it happened over the course of one day is completely irrelevant. It still threatened the Earth alongside the entire Universe being in jeopardy during the Universe Survival arc,
and by extension the Earth was in jeopardy.
In the DB universe these things are still in the ok "torayama forgot" category. DB was never known for the lack of plot holes. And DBS is clearly trying to fit EoZ with the pan and Uub refrences.

So until EoZ is officially retconned it's Canon and here to stay.


I'm sure Goku could have bodied Uub if he wanted to. That didn't appear to be the intention at the time but going off of what we know now, from an In-Universe perspective that still makes sense.
Uub wasn't weak compared to Goku he just didn't know how to fight.

EoZ Goku is Kid Buu~SSJ3 Z Goku tier. Z ended with super vegito > All. Meaning he was still superior to EoZ SSJ3 Goku(SSG/SSB weren't around back then). Not below EoZ base.
The premise of a "Saiyan Beyond God" has been retconned from the movies because they cannot use God Ki in their base like they could in the movie. However, the premise eestablished in BoG that SSJ(post-ritual)>SSG still holds and is never contradicted. The premise that the later anime episodes follow that Goku has Z levels of strength is a simply a result of your misinterpretations, ignoring of feats/statements, and your head canon. I realize people can have different viewpoints but in this case you are simply wrong.
Anime DBS is super inconsistent. So my viewpoint isn't simply wrong.

There is a reason people support the 2 base theory. As sometimes Goku base is Z tier, and in other time he is SSG tier. As the instances supporting the Z base come after the instances of him being SSG tier a lot of people believe the whole SSG base is retconned.

Training with whis didn't make their bases exponentially more powerful. It was the absorption of SSG to the base that made it. This thing never happened in the manga and thus Goku and Vegeta both had fodder bases even after whis training.


Without God Ki/SSG absorbed their bases are growing at the normal rate. Aka not above Super Vegito at base for at least 10 years after ToP

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:30 pm

AhmadHendie wrote:The only clear hit in that fight was landed by Gohan.
That doesn't matter at all. This was a casual sparring match in which Goku literally stated that he was holding back.
If base Goku is above SSG than he should have bodied him
Goku's base was never above SSG during the entire DBS run.
Unless Goku is holding back his SSJ1 to be far below his base form and is only transforming for cosmetics. Which makes zero sense
The point is, Goku said he was suppressed but we don't know by how much. Regardless of what his strength level is, he would drop it down to Gohan's level in order to have a fun fight. That is just how Goku is. It is entirely possible that SSJ Gohan is stronger than Base Goku which would make him massively stronger than his Z self which wouldn't necessarily contradict anything considering that there was no mention of Gohan's power explicitly as it compared to previous iterations, it appeared to be strictly a reference to the Ultimate form.
We also have trunks who was pushing him back. Is SSJ1 Trunks above SSG too. Does he also body SSJ3 Vegito ?
Yes. Whether or not you like it is all well and good, but that is the story being told. You are just using preconceived notions and head canon to rationalize this not being the case despite there being no evidence whatsoever that this couldn't be the case.
Goku going SSG in ToP is evidence of the retcon for me. As you can't absorb SSG to your base than go SSG on top of that.
Well, I'm sorry but this is a result of a fundamental misunderstanding of what happened during BoG. Goku's SSJ retained the same level of power of the SSG from a moment's prior simply by "experiencing it and making it his own." He simply retained that level of power nothing about the way his transformations functioned was changed so him using SSG does not contradict anything. If it did change the functionality of his forms in such a way that using SSG would create a contradiction like you are implying, then the same would have happened with Vegeta. However, Vegeta never went through the ritual he simply matched Goku in power during the time Goku was farming by training with Whis on his own. There's no indication that Vegeta's forms changed and so since there forms work exactly the same, there is no reason to think that the way Goku's forms worked was changed. You simply don't understand what happened.
It seems the anime will follow the manga route in scaling base Goku.
No indication of this whatsoever. The manga's scaling is entirely different. The anime has an abundance of scenes in which the Base of Goku/Vegeta is portrayed as being magnitudes stronger than their Buu arc selves and the same isn't true of the manga.

Gohan didn't make a statement about it being more powerful than he remembered so everything you said above is head Canon.
It is not made clear WHEN Gohan's power massively surpassed his Z self, whether it be when he re-attained the form or when he trained with Piccolo off-screen after reattaining the form, but it is plain as day that his current Ultimate form is SSB tier and therefore, thousands of times stronger than his Z self.
Ultimate Gohan being above SSJ2 Goku makes sense with his Z power.
Ok well that's great but it also makes sense with his Ultimate form being SSB tier too. No reason to think it is his Z power.
He is noticeably stronger in ToP. But not in episode 90
This doesn't make any sense. Why would he magically be stronger during the ToP than he was during episode 90? Nothing is ever stated or shown in any way to imply this.
Nope

Future Trunks world Timeline.

Trunks killed cell in year 788.
Trunks struggled to beat "tough opponent" dabura at around 790~793(couple of years before black)
Trunks meets black at 795.
Trunks Goes to the past at 796.
Yeah they just made all of that up. There is no comment whatsoever as far as when these events took place during the 14 years that we had not seen trunks. Dragon Ball Wiki is notorious for doing things like that.
There is no way he went from dabura level at SSJ2 to super vegito in base in 3~5 years with training with supreme kai. I would be suprised if he even surpassed Super buu at his absolute max power.
This is entirely subjective and not supported in any way. This is simply based on your head canon and preconceived notions. He is as strong as Goku in equivalent forms clearly, therefore he dwarfs anything from Z as a SSJ2. No reason to think otherwise whatsoever. Also, the amount of time is never made clear so this 3-5 years nonsense is invalid.
He isn't reaching above BoG SSG levels even if he acctualy trained with supreme kai for 14 years after struggling with dabura.


The only reason Base goku MIGHT be that strong is that he did the ritual. Without the ritual base trunks is fodder.
Again, preconceived notions with no support whatsoever.
Scaling base trunks at super vegito level is massively high balling him to the moon.
No it isn't. It is literally just a result of paying attention to the story being told. There's no reason to think otherwise considering Goku's strength was established to be that high.
In the DB universe these things are still in the ok "torayama forgot" category. DB was never known for the lack of plot holes. And DBS is clearly trying to fit EoZ with the pan and Uub refrences.

So until EoZ is officially retconned it's Canon and here to stay.
You can call EoZ whatever you want but it clearly does not fit with the events whether you like it or not. EoZ assumes nothing happened in the 10 years so obviously there is no way that this can be consistent with the events of DBS.
Uub wasn't weak compared to Goku he just didn't know how to fight.
Either way, no reason to think this contradicts Super very blatantly, but either way EoZ should not be considered when scaling DBS obviously.
EoZ Goku is Kid Buu~SSJ3 Z Goku tier. Z ended with super vegito > All. Meaning he was still superior to EoZ SSJ3 Goku(SSG/SSB weren't around back then). Not below EoZ base.
Is this based on anything objective? Seems as though you just made this up. We have no reason to believe SSJ3 Goku EoZ is weaker than SSJ Vegetto or vice versa. No comparison is ever made between them so obviously we don't know how they compare.
Anime DBS is super inconsistent. So my viewpoint isn't simply wrong.
Anime DBS can be inconsistent but it is more so just inconsistent with your preconceived notions and head canon rather than being especially inconsistent with itself. Your viewpoint is simply wrong because it ignores an abundance of feats and statements in the show.
There is a reason people support the 2 base theory. As sometimes Goku base is Z tier, and in other time he is SSG tier. As the instances supporting the Z base come after the instances of him being SSG tier a lot of people believe the whole SSG base is retconned.
Two base theory is the definition of convoluted head canon. Nothing supporting it whatsoever and it is constantly contradicted.
Training with whis didn't make their bases exponentially more powerful. It was the absorption of SSG to the base that made it. This thing never happened in the manga and thus Goku and Vegeta both had fodder bases even after whis training.
The manga and anime are separate continuities that do not apply to each other. In the anime, Goku "absorbs" SSG and Vegeta trains with Whis for 6 months, in both instances they become massively stronger than their Z selves as stated multiple times.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:12 pm

Angelus wrote:Androids Saga Base Gohan VS Youthful Lord Slug

SSJ Goku (Yardrat) VS 5th Form Cooler

Meta-Cooler VS Cell Games Piccolo

Manga Piccolo, not the anime filler (Mecha Frieza Arrival) VS Buffed Garlic Jr and the Spice Boys (All Makyan Star Enhanced)

Base Vegeta (Mecha Frieza Arrival) VS Salza, Niez, Doore
1) Pass. Never got Slug's power.
2) The 5th DBZ movie takes place in an alternate universe in which Goku had defeated Freeza and returned from Namek. That Goku defeated Cooler with some difficulties.
3) Piccolo wins with some slight difficult as Cooler can regenerate.
4) It's one versus 5, Piccolo obviously loses.
5) Vegeta kills all of them with a blast. He was stronger than Movie 5 Piccolo who defeated them with ease.
Angelus wrote:Added 1 more lol:
Great Ape Gohan (Namek Saga, Pre-Guru Unlock) VS Dr. Wheelo, Misokatsun, Kishime, Ebifurya (No tail-cutting or grabbing)
I give Wheelo the win.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:26 pm

Spirit Sword Trunks vs Aniraza
SSJ Cumber vs Limit Breaker Jiren
Android 18 (post-Ribrianne fight) vs SSJ2 Caulifla
1st Omen Goku vs Black arc Vegito & Merged Zamasu
U6 arc Piccolo vs Super Buu
SSJ1 Kefla vs SSBE Vegeta (before the Toppo fight)
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:17 pm

Nineteen wrote:Buutenks vs. Gogeta (Movie 12)
I don't think Gogeta is much weaker than Vegito so Gogeta should stomp if in ssj.
Angelus wrote:Androids Saga Base Gohan VS Youthful Lord Slug
SSJ Goku (Yardrat) VS 5th Form Cooler
Meta-Cooler VS Cell Games Piccolo
Manga Piccolo, not the anime filler (Mecha Frieza Arrival) VS Buffed Garlic Jr and the Spice Boys (All Makyan Star Enhanced)
Base Vegeta (Mecha Frieza Arrival) VS Salza, Niez, Doore
-I doubt youthful lord slug was even as strong as first form Frieza, and if he was he definitely wasn't as strong as initial final form Frieza. Base Goku should have this.
-Goku wins. I don't think anyone in Frieza's family could beat namek ssj Goku until Frieza trained, however I think Cooler would give him a real run for his money. He is a bit stronger than full power Frieza and doesn't get tired.
-Meta Cooler stomped what should have been a post kami fussion Piccolo, so probably meta Cooler, especailly if he gets to improve throughout the battle.
-Manga Piccolo should have at least been solidly stronger than 2nd form Frieza, and maybe even 3rd form Frieza considering he had a year to train, I think he would still win.
-I think first or 2nd form Friza would be enough to take all of them out, Vegeta stomps them.
ricky84 wrote:Spirit Sword Trunks vs Aniraza
SSJ Cumber vs Limit Breaker Jiren
Android 18 (post-Ribrianne fight) vs SSJ2 Caulifla
1st Omen Goku vs Black arc Vegito & Merged Zamasu
U6 arc Piccolo vs Super Buu
SSJ1 Kefla vs SSBE Vegeta (before the Toppo fight)
-Trunks slices him in half
-I haven't seen what ssj Cumber can do
-Caulifla stomps. I don't think 18 is nearly that strong. She is probably base to ssj U6 saiyan level.
- The team takes it. Vegito could possibly solo.
-Super Buu stomps. Goku clearly had Buu above Piccolo on his choice list for the tournament and Krillin and Roshi said they were hopping for Buu to carry them, not Piccolo. Buu is implied to still be at least a leauge above Piccolo.
-I would say Vegeta, but he would lose to ssj2 Kefla until the Toppo fight boost.

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