Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Ki Breaker]

That is probably the most ignorant thing anyone has ever said to me on Kanzenshuu.

Could you explain why?

Also how can you know something is nonsense by just watching short clips? Unless you want to argue that you can fairly judge a 100 pages story by just randomly picking 5 pages.

I do not deny it's not really valid to make such harsh statements not knowing the entire execution of the series, but here's the thing, if he did say he watched it, the argument would have been you watch it anyways doesn't matter how bad it is stop complaining, and when he said he doesn't, it'll be this..

I suggest if there is someone so passionately choosing a side here and this place is still open to healthy discussion, instead of repeating the same phrases again and again, we should hear them out, even though he didn't watch it entirely, his statements should be at least considered as long as he is ready to provide some sort of closure, which I assume he has no problem providing?

[Miracles]

I thought the statement about Goku being “almost” at the level of a God was supposed to be due to the fact that he can’t access UI at will. I don’t think that’s a confirmation that UI Goku is weaker than Beerus.

It is including MUI compared to Beerus otherwise Vegeta wouldn't need to catch Goku.

[shadowfox87]

I thought the statement about Goku being “almost” at the level of a God was supposed to be due to the fact that he can’t access UI at will. I don’t think that’s a confirmation that UI Goku is weaker than Beerus.

It is including MUI compared to Beerus otherwise Vegeta wouldn't need to catch Goku.

I don't think that was stating MUI Goku < Beerus but rather Goku without MUI is almost at the level of a god. That is, with SSB and Kaioken. If Jiren is above a god and UI Goku is above Jiren, then by logic UI Goku is already way beyond god.

[Miracles]

I don't think that was stating MUI Goku < Beerus but rather Goku without MUI is almost at the level of a god. That is, with SSB and Kaioken. If Jiren is above a god and UI Goku is above Jiren, then by logic UI Goku is already way beyond god.

The context about Vegeta trying to catch Goku being close to a god means UI. Evolution Vegeta wouldn't be trying to catch SSB KK Goku.

[WittyUsername]

I don't think that was stating MUI Goku < Beerus but rather Goku without MUI is almost at the level of a god. That is, with SSB and Kaioken. If Jiren is above a god and UI Goku is above Jiren, then by logic UI Goku is already way beyond god.

The context about Vegeta trying to catch Goku being close to a god means UI. Evolution Vegeta wouldn't be trying to catch SSB KK Goku.

We don’t even know if SSBE was even a Toriyama idea.

[Bergamo]

I don't think that was stating MUI Goku < Beerus but rather Goku without MUI is almost at the level of a god. That is, with SSB and Kaioken. If Jiren is above a god and UI Goku is above Jiren, then by logic UI Goku is already way beyond god.

The context about Vegeta trying to catch Goku being close to a god means UI. Evolution Vegeta wouldn't be trying to catch SSB KK Goku.

We don’t even know if SSBE was even a Toriyama idea.

We don't know if Kaioken Blue was a Toriyama idea.

[BlueBasilisk]

We don't know if Kaioken Blue was a Toriyama idea.

Boy, that reveal would really flip the table on these debates, wouldn't it?

[WittyUsername]

I think people are reading too deeply into that scan. Jiren was already confirmed to be stronger than Belmod, and UI Goku managed to defeat him. If we’re talking about UI Goku, he is on the level of a GoD, but he can’t access the form at will at the moment.

[alakazam^]

That is probably the most ignorant thing anyone has ever said to me on Kanzenshuu.

Come to think of it, I did watch Future Trunks kill a villain that is 1000x stronger than him by gathering energy into his sword from people on various planets. They basically combined the Genki Dama and Future Trunks slicing Freeza idea into one attack, while ignoring how fast the villain was compared to Future Trunks. Completely unoriginal! But... you know... I’m ill-informed because I haven’t watched the entirety of DBSuper and I’m totally stuck in the past.

Am I supposed to watch RoF to have an appreciation of the same Freeza but colored gold with powers stronger than Super Saiyan Bluper God Saiyan?

You implied Toei came up with F, that Trunks gathered energy from several planets, that Trunks killed Zamasu, that using established weapons and attacks is unoriginal and I'm the ignorant one? Who cares about facts, right? What's important is to blame the "greedy businessmen" - because money is so bad - that are forcing Toriyama to continue the series. I mean, the franchise never made this much money so they're doing something wrong, obviously. I'm not even gonna talk about the ridiculous Pokemon comparison because it just further drives the point that you have no idea what you're talking about.

No, you're ill-informed because - again - you don't know what you're talking about and you're stuck in the past because you use the same old rhetoric of "what's new sucks", "greed", "fanservice", yadda yadda. It's nonsensical and, quite frankly, a waste of everyone's time.

If you had paid any attention, you''d notice Golden Freeza is different from final form Freeza. But you didn't. Maybe watching F isn't that bad an idea, actually.

But I'm curious, please tell us what a dumb story about a monkey-boy stood for in the past. Apart from providing Toriyama with a paycheck, of course.

[Miracles]

I don't think that was stating MUI Goku < Beerus but rather Goku without MUI is almost at the level of a god. That is, with SSB and Kaioken. If Jiren is above a god and UI Goku is above Jiren, then by logic UI Goku is already way beyond god.

The context about Vegeta trying to catch Goku being close to a god means UI. Evolution Vegeta wouldn't be trying to catch SSB KK Goku.

We don’t even know if SSBE was even a Toriyama idea.

Do you even know if KK Blue is a Toriyama idea? It doesn't matter tho, as the subject is god status, Goku is only close to it and vegeta is trying to catch up. They are both Blue level, so the next mode is UI which means the statement includes UI.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Goku is "almost a God" because he obtained UI which is the "state of the Gods" but can't access it at will. It has nothing to do with how Goku compares to a God of Destruction.

This is similar to people misconstruing Vegeta's statement of telling Goku to "step over the state of the Gods" to mean that UI Omen Goku was weaker than the Gods of Destruction.

Even though the term "state of the Gods" was coined by Whis to just refer to Ultra Instinct. Vegeta's statement was just a fancy way of telling Goku to master Ultra Instinct.

[shadowfox87]

The context about Vegeta trying to catch Goku being close to a god means UI. Evolution Vegeta wouldn't be trying to catch SSB KK Goku.

We don’t even know if SSBE was even a Toriyama idea.

Do you even know if KK Blue is a Toriyama idea? It doesn't matter tho, as the subject is god status, Goku is only close to it and vegeta is trying to catch up. They are both Blue level, so the next mode is UI which means the statement includes UI.

I should be clear. I'm going primarily by the manga. In the manga, there isn't KK or SSBE. However, there is one scene in the manga that matches the anime exactly. This is the scene in which Goku uses SSB Kaioken x20 against Jiren in their first encounter versus the manga where Goku uses CSSB against Jiren in their first encounter. In both scenes, Krillin asks Whis if Goku is using his max power, and Whis says he already is. I put SSBE = SSB KK x20. It makes no sense for MUI Goku to be almost god level when Jiren is already beyond it and MUI Goku is beyond Jiren.

[Miracles]

We don’t even know if SSBE was even a Toriyama idea.

Do you even know if KK Blue is a Toriyama idea? It doesn't matter tho, as the subject is god status, Goku is only close to it and vegeta is trying to catch up. They are both Blue level, so the next mode is UI which means the statement includes UI.

I should be clear. I'm going primarily by the manga. In the manga, there isn't KK or SSBE. However, there is one scene in the manga that matches the anime exactly. This is the scene in which Goku uses SSB Kaioken x20 against Jiren in their first encounter versus the manga where Goku uses CSSB against Jiren in their first encounter. In both scenes, Krillin asks Whis if Goku is using his max power, and Whis says he already is. I put SSBE = SSB KK x20. It makes no sense for MUI Goku to be almost god level when Jiren is already beyond it and MUI Goku is beyond Jiren.

I see what you mean.

Well It makes sense, depending on which god we are talking about here. Since Jiren was only stronger than belmound in both anime and manga. Beerus wasn't ever stated to be weaker than either Goku or Jiren. Since both Goku and Vegeta can go CSSB in manga and can also go a step beyond in anime [evolution/KKBlue] all that's left is UI and we know they are factoring in UI since Vegeta has to catch that new mode.

[shadowfox87]

I see what you mean.

Well It makes sense, depending on which god we are talking about here. Since Jiren was only stronger than belmound in both anime and manga. Beerus wasn't ever stated to be weaker than either Goku or Jiren. Since both Goku and Vegeta can go CSSB in manga and can also go a step beyond in anime [evolution/KKBlue] all that's left is UI and we know they are factoring in UI since Vegeta has to catch that new mode.

Yes, it wasn't explicitly stated, but Whis made a general statement that Jiren is the mortal that even a Hakaishin cannot defeat. To me, this implied all 12 Hakaishins including Beerus. We saw the 12 Hakaishin duke it out in the manga. Most of them were even, with Beerus and Quietela left. Belmoud was pretending to be down when he wasn't. It's very hard for me to believe that MUI Goku is almost Beerus level hence. Not only that, but SSB Vegetto from the Zamasu saga was already stated in the manga to be above Beerus. Certainly a post-ToP Goku with CSSB should be near god level now.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

We don't know if Kaioken Blue was a Toriyama idea.

Boy, that reveal would really flip the table on these debates, wouldn't it?

Toriyama heavily involved in U.S arc, Kaioken was heavily used in the U.S arc...

[Mister_Popo]

There are several steps in divine evolution.
What exactly God-power truely is, depends on the context in which it's used.
When Goku first used SSG, Beerus himself noted 'Goku used Godly power', but now we know that was only the very basics of it.

Super Saiyan God, Blue and Blue Evolution have all be named during the series as 'power that's comparable to the Gods' in seperate contexts, but never in terms of beating someone who has been an established Hakaishin for thousands of years, and probably is one of the strongest if not the strongest Hakaishin.

What is meant with "Goku is almost a God", he has complete UI somewhere within him, but not at free will.
He cannot take down a strong God of Destruction at will, even when using MUI he may give Beerus some trouble, while he won't be able to one-shot Beerus either and he defintely won't be able to keep his MUI either, so he'll probably end up losing untill he truely masters it.
Beerus only has partial UI, but he can use it at free will, seemingly indefinetely, that's the big difference in divine establishment Goku (and Vegeta) still have to brigde.

[AnimeNation101]

We don't know if Kaioken Blue was a Toriyama idea.

Boy, that reveal would really flip the table on these debates, wouldn't it?

Toriyama heavily involved in U.S arc, Kaioken was heavily used in the U.S arc...

Yeah but you cant base it off the U.S arc. You have to base it off the arc of origin. The U6 v U7 arc

[Miracles]

Yes, it wasn't explicitly stated, but Whis made a general statement that Jiren is the mortal that even a Hakaishin cannot defeat. To me, this implied all 12 Hakaishins including Beerus. We saw the 12 Hakaishin duke it out in the manga. Most of them were even, with Beerus and Quietela left. Belmoud was pretending to be down when he wasn't. It's very hard for me to believe that MUI Goku is almost Beerus level hence. Not only that, but SSB Vegetto from the Zamasu saga was already stated in the manga to be above Beerus. Certainly a post-ToP Goku with CSSB should be near god level now.

Not really, as CSSB/KKBlue Goku was no where near Jiren's full power, Not to mention, Vegetto, while powering up his Final Kamehameha was asked not stated to have surpassed Beerus, Beerus was handling all of the gods in the manga for a while including Belmound who couldn't even keep up with him, and it was specified in both anime and manga that Jiren only surpassed Belmound not all gods. No one ever was stated to be stronger than Beerus in both anime and manga, so we can't be surprised when they say Goku with MUI still isn't at his level.

[WittyUsername]

Yes, it wasn't explicitly stated, but Whis made a general statement that Jiren is the mortal that even a Hakaishin cannot defeat. To me, this implied all 12 Hakaishins including Beerus. We saw the 12 Hakaishin duke it out in the manga. Most of them were even, with Beerus and Quietela left. Belmoud was pretending to be down when he wasn't. It's very hard for me to believe that MUI Goku is almost Beerus level hence. Not only that, but SSB Vegetto from the Zamasu saga was already stated in the manga to be above Beerus. Certainly a post-ToP Goku with CSSB should be near god level now.

Not really, as CSSB/KKBlue Goku was no where near Jiren's full power, Not to mention, Vegetto, while powering up his Final Kamehameha was asked not stated to have surpassed Beerus, Beerus was handling all of the gods in the manga for a while including Belmound who couldn't even keep up with him, and it was specified in both anime and manga that Jiren only surpassed Belmound not all gods. No one ever was stated to be stronger than Beerus in both anime and manga, so we can't be surprised when they say Goku with MUI still isn't at his level.

If I recall, Belmod didn’t actually directly confront Beerus in the manga. It was implied that he faked unconsciousness during the fight, especially since he was the only one who didn’t need to be healed at the end.

[Miracles]

If I recall, Belmod didn’t actually directly confront Beerus in the manga. It was implied that he faked unconsciousness during the fight, especially since he was the only one who didn’t need to be healed at the end.

Belmound with the help of other gods was dodged a few times by Beerus, couldn't even tell Beerus smacked Champa up in the air and was saved By Sidra when Beerus launched a laser blast. All Belmound did was hit Beerus with an attack that still couldn't stop him from KO'ing the rest of the gods along with Quitela. And it was implied that Beerus and Quitela are the strongest and those two were going to decide who is the best. Belmound in the end, played dead.