Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

sparks have always been used to demonstrate impact.

This is my point. They serve the same visual purpose with Super Saiyan 3, so they're not unique to Super Saiyan 2. It's not typical for the first transformation to have them, but not necessarily impossible for special cases like Black.

Design-wise, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are easy to differentiate for characters like Goku without needing to refer to the aura. Black was clearly using SS1.

But never did a SSJ kept his sparks. Black is going against everything ever shown and if people didn't know about Goku's hair they wouldn't even think twice about him being SSJ2. It could be a case of Toyotarõ making a mistake but it's not, due to a previous conversation I checked all of his SSJ and SSJ2 drawings and he never once made an error; if there's an aura and x warrior is SSJ2 there's sparks.

SSJ3 like SSJ2 has sparks as a characteristic it's not just to show impact. SSJ having sparks isn't an uncommon trait some have others don't, only Black breaks the mold and Vegetto for the split second he transforms.

So in my eyes Black isn't neither SSJ or SSJ2 but his own thing.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta did lose because he was using SSB poorly. In the u6 arc Vegeta's power massively dropped off after one demonstration of his power, because Vegeta sucks at using the form.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The stamina issue was certainly a factor, but not the main one. After eating a Senzu Vegeta got almost as strong as SSJ Black. Think of Vegeta vs SSJ Rosé Black like Vegeta vs #18: Vegeta's clearly outmatched, and the stamina issues are only making things worse.

Only in the one panel. In the anime there were several Super Saiyans who also had sparks long before Super Saiyan 2 was a thing.

For the Dragon Ball Super manga in itself, every time a character became a Super Saiyan 2 they had sparks throughout the battle. It was that way for Goku vs Beerus, Vegeta vs Beerus, Trunks vs Black, Goku vs Trunks and Vegeta vs Black. Then ever since when Goku fought Toppo and so on.

Black had the sparks throughout just like Vegeta.

Toyotaro also shows consistense with the bang. When SSJ2 Goku fights Trunks he has the spiky hair with the bangs, and when Goku uses every form against Toppo his hairstyle as a SSJ is the same Black had as a SSJ2.

I think the presence of sparks is a mutation that happens because Black is a deity in a mortal body, the same reason his version of SSJGSSJG has pink hair instead of blue.

[Marlowe89]

Black is going against everything ever shown and if people didn't know about Goku's hair they wouldn't even think twice about him being SSJ2.

I don't fully agree with that, and as far as I'm concerned, it's the exact opposite. If people didn't associate sparks with Super Saiyan 2, they wouldn't even think twice about Black being SS1. One panel or not, the fact that Super Vegito demonstrated sparks at all is reason enough to have the design take priority over the aura in instances like this.

It's probably just as you've described: Super Saiyan Black is his unique version of the form like Rosé is to Blue. People don't need to overcomplicate it.

[Bergamo]

Vegeta did lose because he was using SSB poorly. In the u6 arc Vegeta's power massively dropped off after one demonstration of his power, because Vegeta sucks at using the form.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The stamina issue was certainly a factor, but not the main one. After eating a Senzu Vegeta got almost as strong as SSJ Black. Think of Vegeta vs SSJ Rosé Black like Vegeta vs #18: Vegeta's clearly outmatched, and the stamina issues are only making things worse.

Only in the one panel. In the anime there were several Super Saiyans who also had sparks long before Super Saiyan 2 was a thing.

For the Dragon Ball Super manga in itself, every time a character became a Super Saiyan 2 they had sparks throughout the battle. It was that way for Goku vs Beerus, Vegeta vs Beerus, Trunks vs Black, Goku vs Trunks and Vegeta vs Black. Then ever since when Goku fought Toppo and so on.

Black had the sparks throughout just like Vegeta.

Toyotaro also shows consistense with the bang. When SSJ2 Goku fights Trunks he has the spiky hair with the bangs, and when Goku uses every form against Toppo his hairstyle as a SSJ is the same Black had as a SSJ2.

I think the presence of sparks is a mutation that happens because Black is a deity in a mortal body, the same reason his version of SSJGSSJG has pink hair instead of blue.

I don't mean that Vegeta was affected by stamina at that moment, I just mean that he burns through stamina and uses weak attacks instead of using big explosions of power like Goku did in the u6 arc.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Vegeta did lose because he was using SSB poorly. In the u6 arc Vegeta's power massively dropped off after one demonstration of his power, because Vegeta sucks at using the form.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The stamina issue was certainly a factor, but not the main one. After eating a Senzu Vegeta got almost as strong as SSJ Black. Think of Vegeta vs SSJ Rosé Black like Vegeta vs #18: Vegeta's clearly outmatched, and the stamina issues are only making things worse.

Only in the one panel. In the anime there were several Super Saiyans who also had sparks long before Super Saiyan 2 was a thing.

For the Dragon Ball Super manga in itself, every time a character became a Super Saiyan 2 they had sparks throughout the battle. It was that way for Goku vs Beerus, Vegeta vs Beerus, Trunks vs Black, Goku vs Trunks and Vegeta vs Black. Then ever since when Goku fought Toppo and so on.

Black had the sparks throughout just like Vegeta.

Toyotaro also shows consistense with the bang. When SSJ2 Goku fights Trunks he has the spiky hair with the bangs, and when Goku uses every form against Toppo his hairstyle as a SSJ is the same Black had as a SSJ2.

I think the presence of sparks is a mutation that happens because Black is a deity in a mortal body, the same reason his version of SSJGSSJG has pink hair instead of blue.

I don't mean that Vegeta was affected by stamina at that moment, I just mean that he burns through stamina and uses weak attacks instead of using big explosions of power like Goku did in the u6 arc.

That early manga power scale for the trunks arc is weird. Though I think it's simple to look at it like this:
Ssj2 vegeta = ssj black >>ssj3 goku>=full power ssj2 trunks (which is the same state I believe vegeta to be using)>black>ssj2 goku>>>>ssj2 trunks
And zenkai ssj black = ssj blue vegeta

[Bergamo]

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The stamina issue was certainly a factor, but not the main one. After eating a Senzu Vegeta got almost as strong as SSJ Black. Think of Vegeta vs SSJ Rosé Black like Vegeta vs #18: Vegeta's clearly outmatched, and the stamina issues are only making things worse.



Toyotaro also shows consistense with the bang. When SSJ2 Goku fights Trunks he has the spiky hair with the bangs, and when Goku uses every form against Toppo his hairstyle as a SSJ is the same Black had as a SSJ2.

I think the presence of sparks is a mutation that happens because Black is a deity in a mortal body, the same reason his version of SSJGSSJG has pink hair instead of blue.

I don't mean that Vegeta was affected by stamina at that moment, I just mean that he burns through stamina and uses weak attacks instead of using big explosions of power like Goku did in the u6 arc.

That early manga power scale for the trunks arc is weird. Though I think it's simple to look at it like this:
Ssj2 vegeta = ssj black >>ssj3 goku>=full power ssj2 trunks (which is the same state I believe vegeta to be using)>black>ssj2 goku>>>>ssj2 trunks
And zenkai ssj black = ssj blue vegeta

I agree that there is usually a simple way to explain things in Dragon Ball, but a lot of people also like to delve in to the details.

[Jesus-is Lord]

I don't mean that Vegeta was affected by stamina at that moment, I just mean that he burns through stamina and uses weak attacks instead of using big explosions of power like Goku did in the u6 arc.

That early manga power scale for the trunks arc is weird. Though I think it's simple to look at it like this:
Ssj2 vegeta = ssj black >>ssj3 goku>=full power ssj2 trunks (which is the same state I believe vegeta to be using)>black>ssj2 goku>>>>ssj2 trunks
And zenkai ssj black = ssj blue vegeta

I agree that there is usually a simple way to explain things in Dragon Ball, but a lot of people also like to delve in to the details.

There's got to be a balance, dragon ball is always first an fore-most martial arts based. Therefore, I don't agree with people who try to calculatate dragon ball strength based on their neo-scientific feats. Dragon ball has never been consitent in destructive power, so why do people try to use it as viable weapons of debate within the community?
Against other communties, now you're talking since it's the only objective way of comparing but even then - I don' get why people have to start making up absurd headcanon so they can have their series as the strongest
But in the same token, that does not mean Power scailing should be disregarded. Keeping a consitent power scale is what allow a reader to be interested in the story or take it seriously and feel the stakes. And what really matters is that the story stay consitent within its story. Power scaling can have its own uniqe properties and execution across differnt animes and manga, but the Key is that does the power scailing stay consitent within its own premise. I mean, how seriously would you take a show if all of sudden Kuririn could push back a ssj blue kamehameha (Oh wait....Whistles... nvm ) or like a random robot with no special training jumped from ssj pre HTC goku, to ssj blue level in a decade (Wait? don't tell me that happened too?!), it would make the show less belivable. And for a franchise like Db that has pride itself on being consitent within itself in battle to a largely believable height, sterring away from that can hurt the appeal of the franchise for long-time fans and even be less appealing to newcomers since the product of the show will be less since the scailing of the show won't be taken as seriously.

Hopefully this made sense...

[Black Hawk]

There's got to be a balance, dragon ball is always first an fore-most martial arts based. Therefore, I don't agree with people who try to calculatate dragon ball strength based on their neo-scientific feats. Dragon ball has never been consitent in destructive power, so why do people try to use it as viable weapons of debate within the community?
Against other communties, now you're talking since it's the only objective way of comparing but even then - I don' get why people have to start making up absurd headcanon so they can have their series as the strongest
But in the same token, that does not mean Power scailing should be disregarded. Keeping a consitent power scale is what allow a reader to be interested in the story or take it seriously and feel the stakes. And what really matters is that the story stay consitent within its story. Power scaling can have its own uniqe properties and execution across differnt animes and manga, but the Key is that does the power scailing stay consitent within its own premise. I mean, how seriously would you take a show if all of sudden Kuririn could push back a ssj blue kamehameha (Oh wait....Whistles... nvm ) or like a random robot with no special training jumped from ssj pre HTC goku, to ssj blue level in a decade (Wait? don't tell me that happened too?!), it would make the show less belivable. And for a franchise like Db that has pride itself on being consitent within itself in battle to a largely believable height, sterring away from that can hurt the appeal of the franchise for long-time fans and even be less appealing to newcomers since the product of the show will be less since the scailing of the show won't be taken as seriously.

Hopefully this made sense...

I've never seen someone sum up the balance and codependency of story and power scaling so eloquently before. Well done!

[RandomGuy96]

Question for both continuities, manga and anime:

Does Zamasu-Goku have a disproportionately strong base off the bat, stronger than Goku's should be and thus not following the normal SS multipliers? Because Zamasu-Goku effortlessly killed Goku-Zamasu in just in his base form, even though normally Zamasu appears to be a lot stronger than base Goku.

Not one fighting at full capacity, that was the whole point.

Not really. Vegeta ate a Senzu in the middle of the fight. The main issue was Black being too powerful, not Vegeta using SSJB poorly.

No, because from the second Vegeta powered up into SSB, he would immediately start losing massive amounts of energy.

[Black Hawk]

Does Zamasu-Goku have a disproportionately strong base off the bat, stronger than Goku's should be and thus not following the normal SS multipliers? Because Zamasu-Goku effortlessly killed Goku-Zamasu in just in his base form, even though normally Zamasu appears to be a lot stronger than base Goku.

I haven't put a lot of thought into the matter, but, as someone whose focus is the manga, I'd imagine Black's base was disproportionately stronger right out of the gate and/or Zamas ambushed Goku and immediately killed him while he was still in "What the heck just happened? Why am I green like Piccolo?" mode. Since the manga never specifically showed or told us what happened, it seems rather ambiguous whether or not it was a sneak attack that resulted in instant death. Suddenly appearing behind Goku and firing a ki blast through the heart, no matter how little of Goku's power Zamas could use, sounds like it might get the job done as long as Goku's guard wasn't up. Zamas would also likely know his own body quite well so as to be able to pinpoint a vital spot like the heart from behind. Either way, I feel like all we can do is speculate with what (very) little information we have to go on, at least, with regard to the manga.

[RandomGuy96]

Does Zamasu-Goku have a disproportionately strong base off the bat, stronger than Goku's should be and thus not following the normal SS multipliers? Because Zamasu-Goku effortlessly killed Goku-Zamasu in just in his base form, even though normally Zamasu appears to be a lot stronger than base Goku.

I haven't put a lot of thought into the matter, but, as someone whose focus is the manga, I'd imagine Black's base was disproportionately stronger right out of the gate and/or Zamas ambushed Goku and immediately killed him while he was still in "What the heck just happened? Why am I green like Piccolo?" mode. Since the manga never specifically showed or told us what happened, it seems rather ambiguous whether or not it was a sneak attack that resulted in instant death. Suddenly appearing behind Goku and firing a ki blast through the heart, no matter how little of Goku's power Zamas could use, sounds like it might get the job done as long as Goku's guard wasn't up. Zamas would also likely know his own body quite well so as to be able to pinpoint a vital spot like the heart from behind. Either way, I feel like all we can do is speculate with what (very) little information we have to go on, at least, with regard to the manga.

Well, a small illustration in chapter 20 depicts the killing and Zamasu-Goku is pretty clearly not even trying to be stealthy his stabbing, so it probably went down similar to the anime. He also claims that he couldn't transform beyond base when he first arrived in Trunks' timeline, yet he was still thrashing Trunks. So, it would appear that Black Goku doesn't follow normal multiplier logic, for whatever reason.

[Hugo Boss]

My theory is that Kaioshins in general have a weak-type body while some of them feature strong magic properties, specially Zamasu. The moment Zamasu change bodies with Goku, the unique Kaioshin trait is lost, which makes Goku much weaker, while Zamasu makes the most out of Goku’s strong body.

[Bergamo]

Does Zamasu-Goku have a disproportionately strong base off the bat, stronger than Goku's should be and thus not following the normal SS multipliers? Because Zamasu-Goku effortlessly killed Goku-Zamasu in just in his base form, even though normally Zamasu appears to be a lot stronger than base Goku.

I haven't put a lot of thought into the matter, but, as someone whose focus is the manga, I'd imagine Black's base was disproportionately stronger right out of the gate and/or Zamas ambushed Goku and immediately killed him while he was still in "What the heck just happened? Why am I green like Piccolo?" mode. Since the manga never specifically showed or told us what happened, it seems rather ambiguous whether or not it was a sneak attack that resulted in instant death. Suddenly appearing behind Goku and firing a ki blast through the heart, no matter how little of Goku's power Zamas could use, sounds like it might get the job done as long as Goku's guard wasn't up. Zamas would also likely know his own body quite well so as to be able to pinpoint a vital spot like the heart from behind. Either way, I feel like all we can do is speculate with what (very) little information we have to go on, at least, with regard to the manga.

Well, a small illustration in chapter 20 depicts the killing and Zamasu-Goku is pretty clearly not even trying to be stealthy his stabbing, so it probably went down similar to the anime. He also claims that he couldn't transform beyond base when he first arrived in Trunks' timeline, yet he was still thrashing Trunks. So, it would appear that Black Goku doesn't follow normal multiplier logic, for whatever reason.

I'm sorry for changing the topic, but when was, "multiplier logic," ever established in the narrative?

[ZombieVito]

Does Zamasu-Goku have a disproportionately strong base off the bat, stronger than Goku's should be and thus not following the normal SS multipliers? Because Zamasu-Goku effortlessly killed Goku-Zamasu in just in his base form, even though normally Zamasu appears to be a lot stronger than base Goku.

I haven't put a lot of thought into the matter, but, as someone whose focus is the manga, I'd imagine Black's base was disproportionately stronger right out of the gate and/or Zamas ambushed Goku and immediately killed him while he was still in "What the heck just happened? Why am I green like Piccolo?" mode. Since the manga never specifically showed or told us what happened, it seems rather ambiguous whether or not it was a sneak attack that resulted in instant death. Suddenly appearing behind Goku and firing a ki blast through the heart, no matter how little of Goku's power Zamas could use, sounds like it might get the job done as long as Goku's guard wasn't up. Zamas would also likely know his own body quite well so as to be able to pinpoint a vital spot like the heart from behind. Either way, I feel like all we can do is speculate with what (very) little information we have to go on, at least, with regard to the manga.

Well, a small illustration in chapter 20 depicts the killing and Zamasu-Goku is pretty clearly not even trying to be stealthy his stabbing, so it probably went down similar to the anime. He also claims that he couldn't transform beyond base when he first arrived in Trunks' timeline, yet he was still thrashing Trunks. So, it would appear that Black Goku doesn't follow normal multiplier logic, for whatever reason.

In the manga Black fucks up the powerscale thanks to him turning SS but in the anime it can be assumed he has the power of SSG in his base since his aura does look like that of a god, just Black color. Once he turns SS he then turns Rose and rivals Blue.

Maybe him being an actual god allows him to stay in the state Goku was at the end of his fight with Beerus once God wore off.

[Bergamo]

I haven't put a lot of thought into the matter, but, as someone whose focus is the manga, I'd imagine Black's base was disproportionately stronger right out of the gate and/or Zamas ambushed Goku and immediately killed him while he was still in "What the heck just happened? Why am I green like Piccolo?" mode. Since the manga never specifically showed or told us what happened, it seems rather ambiguous whether or not it was a sneak attack that resulted in instant death. Suddenly appearing behind Goku and firing a ki blast through the heart, no matter how little of Goku's power Zamas could use, sounds like it might get the job done as long as Goku's guard wasn't up. Zamas would also likely know his own body quite well so as to be able to pinpoint a vital spot like the heart from behind. Either way, I feel like all we can do is speculate with what (very) little information we have to go on, at least, with regard to the manga.

Well, a small illustration in chapter 20 depicts the killing and Zamasu-Goku is pretty clearly not even trying to be stealthy his stabbing, so it probably went down similar to the anime. He also claims that he couldn't transform beyond base when he first arrived in Trunks' timeline, yet he was still thrashing Trunks. So, it would appear that Black Goku doesn't follow normal multiplier logic, for whatever reason.

In the manga Black fucks up the powerscale thanks to him turning SS but in the anime it can be assumed he has the power of SSG in his base since his aura does look like that of a god, just Black color. Once he turns SS he then turns Rose and rivals Blue.

Maybe him being an actual god allows him to stay in the state Goku was at the end of his fight with Beerus once God wore off.

SS3 Goku=SS2 Trunks<SS Black<SS2 Vegeta<SSB Vegeta=SS Black(post zenkai)<SSR Black

This is what they showed in the story. What's wrong with the power scale?

[Jesus-is Lord]

Well, a small illustration in chapter 20 depicts the killing and Zamasu-Goku is pretty clearly not even trying to be stealthy his stabbing, so it probably went down similar to the anime. He also claims that he couldn't transform beyond base when he first arrived in Trunks' timeline, yet he was still thrashing Trunks. So, it would appear that Black Goku doesn't follow normal multiplier logic, for whatever reason.

In the manga Black fucks up the powerscale thanks to him turning SS but in the anime it can be assumed he has the power of SSG in his base since his aura does look like that of a god, just Black color. Once he turns SS he then turns Rose and rivals Blue.

Maybe him being an actual god allows him to stay in the state Goku was at the end of his fight with Beerus once God wore off.

SS3 Goku=SS2 Trunks<SS Black<SS2 Vegeta<SSB Vegeta=SS Black(post zenkai)<SSR Black

This is what they showed in the story. What's wrong with the power scale?

This is fine, but it can also be implied that base black>>>>>>>>>ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku if you read chapter 14.

[Bergamo]

In the manga Black fucks up the powerscale thanks to him turning SS but in the anime it can be assumed he has the power of SSG in his base since his aura does look like that of a god, just Black color. Once he turns SS he then turns Rose and rivals Blue.

Maybe him being an actual god allows him to stay in the state Goku was at the end of his fight with Beerus once God wore off.

SS3 Goku=SS2 Trunks<SS Black<SS2 Vegeta<SSB Vegeta=SS Black(post zenkai)<SSR Black

This is what they showed in the story. What's wrong with the power scale?

This is fine, but it can also be implied that base black>>>>>>>>>ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku if you read chapter 14.

What's the issue? I could see why you wouldn't like Trunks being that weak, but does it really effect the coherency of the power scale.

[ZombieVito]

This is fine, but it can also be implied that base black>>>>>>>>>ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku if you read chapter 14.

This was not implied, it was outright shown.

Base Black being stronger than SS3 Goku makes his Rose form over 400 stronger than Blue. It's a fuck up.

[Bergamo]

This is fine, but it can also be implied that base black>>>>>>>>>ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku if you read chapter 14.

This was not implied, it was outright shown.

Base Black being stronger than SS3 Goku makes his Rose form over 400 stronger than Blue. It's a fuck up.

Yeah, but multipliers aren't ever implied in the show, so who cares. Fans talk about multipliers like they are objective fact and the lifeblood of the power scale, but really, they aren't ever shown in the series.

[Jesus-is Lord]

SS3 Goku=SS2 Trunks<SS Black<SS2 Vegeta<SSB Vegeta=SS Black(post zenkai)<SSR Black

This is what they showed in the story. What's wrong with the power scale?

This is fine, but it can also be implied that base black>>>>>>>>>ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku if you read chapter 14.

What's the issue? I could see why you wouldn't like Trunks being that weak, but does it really effect the coherency of the power scale.

It's not that trunks is so weak, it's how ssj2 vegeta can be THAT MUCH stronger then ssj3 goku without any explanation or emphsis. That dosen't make sense, so having ssj2 vegeta = ssj black, but base black be FAR above ssj3 goku makes very little sense. Hence, why it's better to argue ssj black is stronger then ssj3 goku while being tied with ssj2 vegeta. Even though that's kinda bad power scailing, you can headcanon reason that the same power boost trunks used in his ssj2, vegeta did it in his ssj2. Or you can argue goku was holding back, because that can also been argued based on how the black arc went.