"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Jesus-is Lord]

Ultra Instinct's build up in the manga easily outstrips the anime. It's seriously not even a contest.

It's not just about foreshadowing, it's about character motivation. It's about establishing a logical progression of events with Vegeta learning that it's the key to overcoming characters like Beerus, Goku seeing the same technique in action during the Zen Exhibition, and both concluding that they have to overcome that wall. It's about having those goals interplay with the personalities of the protagonists and influencing the plot, like with Goku selfishly deciding to forego his team-up with Hit to focus on reaching this mysterious milestone. It's NOT about withholding those aspirations until after the form comes out of bumfuck nowhere because "hurrrrr he absorbed da spirit bomb".

I give considerably much less of a shit about Goku slowly learning to master Ultra Instinct's mechanics as I do his character development towards obtaining it in the first place, which is exactly what the manga prioritizes.

Well said

[alakazam^]

So, you think that showcasing the power that is going to be used in Goku's new transformation and then having Whis explain that UI is the next step in Goku and Vegeta's training doesn't make the story more cohesive? You think that mentioning UI once and then bringing it back randomly 70 episodes later is exactly the same?

It's not exactly the same nor was it meant to be. I think it works better having Migatte no Gokui appear without prior notice than shoving the notion down our throats since the arc began. Maybe because the arcs are now short-ish, it feels really convenient.

I'm tired of this false equivalency.

Super Saiyan 3 cannot be compared to the likes of Super anime's ultra instinct, or "beyond blue", or Trunk's "rage form". Super Saiyan 3 was meant to be a red herring. The form never won a single fight and was introduced to make distract the reader/viewer: the real powerup mechanic of the Buu arc was fusion. It was a nice spin on things, where every previous arc was about getting new forms and techniques, Super Saiyan 3 was objectively a bad form and stated as such within the story.

If Goku turned Super Saiyan 3 out of nowhere, and proceeded to kill Buu, THEN it would be comparable to what the Super anime does.

It can very well be compared.

SS3 came out of nowhere and Goku said he could have killed Boo if he wanted. On the other hand, the notion of Migatte no Gokui was talked about ever since F and, while it did defeat Geran, the form didn't win them the tournament and ended up backfiring.

and major plot armor since Jiren eliminated Hit but looked at goku and left him there like an moron.

Agreed, it's really stupid how Geran knocked Hit out and is still fighting Goku.

Ultra Instinct's build up in the manga easily outstrips the anime. It's seriously not even a contest.

It's not just about foreshadowing, it's about character motivation. It's about establishing a logical progression of events with Vegeta learning that it's the key to overcoming characters like Beerus, Goku seeing the same technique in action during the Zen Exhibition, and both concluding that they have to overcome that wall. It's about having those goals interplay with the personalities of the protagonists and influencing the plot, like with Goku selfishly deciding to forego his team-up with Hit to focus on reaching this mysterious milestone. It's NOT about withholding those aspirations until after the form comes out of bumfuck nowhere because "hurrrrr he absorbed da spirit bomb".

I give considerably much less of a shit about Goku slowly learning to master Ultra Instinct's mechanics as I do his character development towards obtaining it in the first place, which is exactly what the manga prioritizes.

They already knew they had that wall to overcome ever since F.

So, you think Goku watching Beers doing it and then fighting a guy he is no match for without even trying to do it is better than he using the Genkidama's energy as a trigger and fuel for the first step into Migatteland? Ok, then.

[Jesus-is Lord]

So, you think that showcasing the power that is going to be used in Goku's new transformation and then having Whis explain that UI is the next step in Goku and Vegeta's training doesn't make the story more cohesive? You think that mentioning UI once and then bringing it back randomly 70 episodes later is exactly the same?

It's not exactly the same nor was it meant to be. I think it works better having Migatte no Gokui appear without prior notice than shoving the notion down our throats since the arc began. Maybe because the arcs are now short-ish, it feels really convenient.

I'm tired of this false equivalency.

Super Saiyan 3 cannot be compared to the likes of Super anime's ultra instinct, or "beyond blue", or Trunk's "rage form". Super Saiyan 3 was meant to be a red herring. The form never won a single fight and was introduced to make distract the reader/viewer: the real powerup mechanic of the Buu arc was fusion. It was a nice spin on things, where every previous arc was about getting new forms and techniques, Super Saiyan 3 was objectively a bad form and stated as such within the story.

If Goku turned Super Saiyan 3 out of nowhere, and proceeded to kill Buu, THEN it would be comparable to what the Super anime does.

It can very well be compared.

SS3 came out of nowhere and Goku said he could have killed Boo if he wanted. On the other hand, the notion of Migatte no Gokui was talked about ever since F and, while it did defeat Geran, the form didn't win them the tournament and ended up backfiring.

and major plot armor since Jiren eliminated Hit but looked at goku and left him there like an moron.

Agreed, it's really stupid how Geran knocked Hit out and is still fighting Goku.

Ultra Instinct's build up in the manga easily outstrips the anime. It's seriously not even a contest.

It's not just about foreshadowing, it's about character motivation. It's about establishing a logical progression of events with Vegeta learning that it's the key to overcoming characters like Beerus, Goku seeing the same technique in action during the Zen Exhibition, and both concluding that they have to overcome that wall. It's about having those goals interplay with the personalities of the protagonists and influencing the plot, like with Goku selfishly deciding to forego his team-up with Hit to focus on reaching this mysterious milestone. It's NOT about withholding those aspirations until after the form comes out of bumfuck nowhere because "hurrrrr he absorbed da spirit bomb".

I give considerably much less of a shit about Goku slowly learning to master Ultra Instinct's mechanics as I do his character development towards obtaining it in the first place, which is exactly what the manga prioritizes.

They already knew they had that wall to overcome ever since F.

So, you think Goku watching Beers doing it and then fighting a guy he is no match for without even trying to do it is better than he using the Genkidama's energy as a trigger and fuel for the first step into Migatteland? Ok, then.

Whis briefly mentioned to them in the early rof episodes and it was NEVER brought up again until 80-85 episodes later, and had no reason NOT to be foreshadowed within that 80 time frame. At least goku knows about it and is trying to achieve somehow or doing something, in the anime he pulled it straight out of his behind. Goku using a spirt bomb isn't bad, but the way of how he got UI makes barley any sense and had no build up within the story, and was overall a very very bad narrative executive and far worse then the manga and how it's building up UI.

2nd, if you're going to lump ssj3 goku into a trnaformation that came out of no where. You should do that with his ssj2 form, vegetas majin ssj2 form, ssj4, kaioken blue, ssj3 gotenks, and buu being able to absorb people, UI omen, blue, ssj rage, and evolution. All of these forms came out of no-where, and the forms on this list make-up most of supers Orginal own trnaformations.

[reecehoward]

You and I don't agree on much, but THIS is definitely something I wholeheartedly agree with. UI as a powerup makes absolutely no sense, especially to the degree that was shown in the anime. I could see if it just added that extra layer of defense and instinct that his fighting style lacked overall, with the power boost itself just being a product of a zenkai, but as a straight up super saiyan-like transformation is where it just gets convoluted. Furthermore, it just increases the already over-inflated powerscale. There are already people having issues, understandably, with Broly being as strong as he's being hinted at because of the ToP.

UI as a stronger form does make sense tho, the three times Goku became incomplete UI, he had to break his current strength limit to achieve the complete UI.
We find out that UI is not just a state but also a state of mind [Ep 129]. The thing that didn't make sense is how resisting a ton of energy makes one stronger? This isn't DB continuity.

I guess if you look at it that way. I suppose my issue is that in neither version of the series is it hinted at being a power boost until it actually happens. Being that Goku is supposedly now stronger than Beerus, the case could be made that a certain level of power is needed for that state to be achieved in it's full capacity.

[Miracles]

I guess if you look at it that way. I suppose my issue is that in neither version of the series is it hinted at being a power boost until it actually happens. Being that Goku is supposedly now stronger than Beerus, the case could be made that a certain level of power is needed for that state to be achieved in it's full capacity.

Goku did recently state in the manga that he has to overcome a wall as his only chance to defeat Jiren when neglecting to fight with Hit. .

[TKA]

SS3 came out of nowhere and Goku said he could have killed Boo if he wanted. On the other hand, the notion of Migatte no Gokui was talked about ever since F and, while it did defeat Geran, the form didn't win them the tournament and ended up backfiring.

Honestly, man, I don't think you understand how stories work. You're thinking in terms of power levels and not in terms of dramatic structure. What Goku says is irrelevant since he didn't actually solve the conflict. He says he could've, but he didn't. In addition, we know SS3 added to the conflict since it burned up his remaining time, and then burned up Gotenks' remaining time.

It's a completely different narrative tool than 11th hour power ups out of nowhere. SS3 was, and say it with me, a red herring. All the other conflicts were resolved with new techniques and powerups, so SS3 was there to make you think it would solve everything, but it didn't. That's called a subversion. Toei, on the other hand, has just played these narrative tools pretty straight. That is passé at this point. It was passé 25 years ago, which is why Toriyama subverted it.

[Marlowe89]

They already knew they had that wall to overcome ever since F.

I'm aware of that throwaway dialogue briefly touched on several arcs ago. That wasn't my point.

So, you think Goku watching Beers doing it and then fighting a guy he is no match for without even trying to do it is better than he using the Genkidama's energy as a trigger and fuel for the first step into Migatteland? Ok, then.

Did I stutter?

Yes. I want to see the main character inspired by it and then aspire towards it while having that goal actively affect his decisions in the plot. I don't want to see this sacrificed in favor of fanservicey techniques that Toei doesn't even understand. Genki Dama had no business even BEING in the tournament, let alone incorporated as "fuel" (lol) for Ultra Instinct.

If you're not actually doing anything with these new transformations to effectively tie them into Goku's arcs and motivations, I'm not going to care as much. This shit is basic character writing. The anime didn't even get the ball rolling until after the form was formally introduced.

[TKA]

So, you think Goku watching Beers doing it and then fighting a guy he is no match for without even trying to do it is better than he using the Genkidama's energy as a trigger and fuel for the first step into Migatteland? Ok, then.

Yes. I want to see the main character inspired by it and then aspire towards it

I fully agree. This is character, this is progression, this is growth. The scenario alakazam described is thoroughly uninteresting because it is bereft of the aforementioned. It's just empty power levels.

[Miracles]

The "inspiration" and "aspiration" of Goku is an "empty" higher power level tho.

[TKA]

The "inspiration" and "aspiration" of Goku is an "empty" higher power level tho.

Well, not really. When it comes to writing, it's not the destination that counts, but the journey. What matters is the how. Goku seeing something and training to achieve it, going through the growth of character (re: not growth of power level) that comes along with that is substantially different than 11th hour powerups.

Hopefully that works as an answer since I'm not entirely sure what you're insinuating in your post.

[emperior]

Are you guys really sure that Goku will suddenly try to use Ultra Instinct and achieve it with success in the manga?
Because I fully expect him to achieve it the same way he did in the anime, by getting engulfed into his own Genkidama, resist it and use its energy as fuel to fight. Although I think Toyotaro will keep this part for last and in his version Goku will immediately attain the silver-haired mastered version instead of the Omen.
Honestly, I will be happy if UI is achieved the same way as in the anime but I wouldn’t mind seeing what Toyo’s take is if he decides to go another route.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Are you guys really sure that Goku will suddenly try to use Ultra Instinct and achieve it with success in the manga?
Because I fully expect him to achieve it the same way he did in the anime, by getting engulfed into his own Genkidama, resist it and use its energy as fuel to fight. Although I think Toyotaro will keep this part for last and in his version Goku will immediately attain the silver-haired mastered version instead of the Omen.
Honestly, I will be happy if UI is achieved the same way as in the anime but I wouldn’t mind seeing what Toyo’s take is if he decides to go another route.

Goku using a spirit bomb for it to fail and then get UI omen (not even Akiras form) was just nostalgia copying of the Frieza arc. Plus why would toyotaro copy build-up from toei to a form that's not even Toriyamas creation? When has toyotaro been a guy to copy toei? I doubt it's happening. Toyotaro barley ever copied toei, why would he do it, now?

[alakazam^]

Whis briefly mentioned to them in the early rof episodes and it was NEVER brought up again until 80-85 episodes later, and had no reason NOT to be foreshadowed within that 80 time frame. At least goku knows about it and is trying to achieve somehow or doing something, in the anime he pulled it straight out of his behind. Goku using a spirt bomb isn't bad, but the way of how he got UI makes barley any sense and had no build up within the story, and was overall a very very bad narrative executive and far worse then the manga and how it's building up UI.

2nd, if you're going to lump ssj3 goku into a trnaformation that came out of no where. You should do that with his ssj2 form, vegetas majin ssj2 form, ssj4, kaioken blue, ssj3 gotenks, and buu being able to absorb people, UI omen, blue, ssj rage, and evolution. All of these forms came out of no-where, and the forms on this list make-up most of supers Orginal own trnaformations.

It didn't need to be mentioned again, many people didn't forget about it. I don't remember well if it was actually talked about later but that was the gist of Whis' training. If you paid attention, you remembered it. Yeah, Goku isn't trying anything in the manga, he's just fighting Geran and not getting knocked out because of plot.

Half of those are from Super and half are not and not all came out of nowhere. Even if they did, I don't see your point since it doesn't change the fact SS3 came out of nowhere.

Honestly, man, I don't think you understand how stories work. You're thinking in terms of power levels and not in terms of dramatic structure. What Goku says is irrelevant since he didn't actually solve the conflict. He says he could've, but he didn't. In addition, we know SS3 added to the conflict since it burned up his remaining time, and then burned up Gotenks' remaining time.

It's a completely different narrative tool than 11th hour power ups out of nowhere. SS3 was, and say it with me, a red herring. All the other conflicts were resolved with new techniques and powerups, so SS3 was there to make you think it would solve everything, but it didn't. That's called a subversion. Toei, on the other hand, has just played these narrative tools pretty straight. That is passé at this point. It was passé 25 years ago, which is why Toriyama subverted it.

I understand how stories work. I also understand that you didn't watch the anime and you're extremely biased against it so you can't form an educated opinion about the comparison I made.

In-universe, what Goku says matters. Thus, even though SS3 didn't resolve the conflict, it could very well have, if Goku had decided to do so. This is relevant for the story. Fusion, the "actual powerup" you mentioned, also didn't solve anything so what's the difference? And let's not be dishonest here, there's nothing wrong about a new powerup resolving an arc's conflict, it's only passé because you want it to be but we all know you'll be here applauding when Toyotarou does the same or worse than what the anime did.

Yes. I want to see the main character inspired by it and then aspire towards it while having that goal actively affect his decisions in the plot. I don't want to see this sacrificed in favor of fanservicey techniques that Toei doesn't even understand. Genki Dama had no business even BEING in the tournament, let alone incorporated as "fuel" (lol) for Ultra Instinct.

If you're not actually doing anything with these new transformations to effectively tie them into Goku's arcs and motivations, I'm not going to care as much. This shit is basic character writing. The anime didn't even get the ball rolling until after the form was formally introduced.

What's wrong with having the Genkidama in the tournament? It's a legitimate technique.

I'm pretty sure Toei's staff doesn't need lessons on character writing from you, but anyway... having Goku see Migatte no Gokui in action (partially) once and then, roughly 50 hours later, wanting to work towards that really hard while not doing anything for it is all very convenient because we know he'll achieve it anyway. If Toyotarou wraps the arc by December there's not much time left and Goku just spent his time fighting Geran (mostly off-panel), knowing he's no match and not being knocked out because of plot. Having him going to extremes for a chance of unlocking Migatte no Gokui while not acting like he barely paid any attention to Whis' teachings for several years is way more entertaining.

Let's see what Toyotarou does.

[TKA]

I also understand that you didn't watch the anime and you're extremely biased against it so you can't form an educated opinion about the comparison I made.

Substandard argument.

Am I "biased against" Birdemic because it is a bad movie and I don't like it? Am I "biased against" Twilight because it is a bad book series and I don't like them? The anime is bad and I don't like it. That's the extent of my relationship with it.

Also, in what world is watching 103 episodes of a show not enough to form an "educated opinion" on it? That's fucking inane.

In-universe, what Goku says matters. Thus, even though SS3 didn't resolve the conflict, it could very well have, if Goku had decided to do so.

And that's why I questioned if you understand dramatic structure. Darth Vader could've killed Luke, Han and Leia aboard the first Death Star, but he specifically ordered his stormtroopers to miss. Yet you don't see people talking about that aspect of things much, if at all. That's because what Darth Vader could or couldn't have done meant nothing as far as the narrative was concerned—as far as what actually happened, it meant nothing.

Goku saying "Oh I probably could've won" means nothing when he didn't actually do it. The narrative role of Super Saiyan 3 was to be a red herring for the audience. When asked to teach the boys SS3, he shrugs it off and instead teaches them fusion. That was the story telling us SS3 doesn't matter. That is in stark contrast to Toei, who pushes every new form as the greatest thing since sliced bread and resolves all conflict with them. That's boring, especially when these things aren't built up, have no context and are never explained.

If all it takes to resolve an issue is to really believe in yourself, scream louder and pull out some new transformation then why should I give a single shit about whatever these characters are going through? How is there any tension? Super Saiyan 3 failed in all its appearances. Hell, Kaioken did the same thing. It failed to match Vegeta, it failed to beat Ginyu and it failed to beat Frieza. That is the kind of writing Toriyama engages in, not this tepid Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann nonsense.

This is relevant for the story. Fusion, the "actual powerup" you mentioned, also didn't solve anything so what's the difference?

The difference is we got to see Fusion develop onscreen. We got to see the characters train and develop for it. That fact alone makes it better than any form gained spontaneously or offscreen. Fusion, unlike SS3, wasn't a red herring. It played heavily into the Buu fight, and then with Vegito. They have different narrative functions, my guy.

And let's not be dishonest here, there's nothing wrong about a new powerup resolving an arc's conflict,

Yes there is! Why should I be invested if people can pull shit out of nowhere and resolve whatever conflict is going on? Why should I give a shit about Luke's journey if in the climax of the film his starfighter transformed into Unicron and he crushed the Death Star? If the characters don't have limits, if the setting doesn't have rules—then why should I give a single solitary fuck about what's going on?

you'll be here applauding when Toyotarou does the same or worse than what the anime did.

I won't even dignify this with too much of a response. Marlowe89 adequately explained the difference between the anime's approach and the manga's. Reread what he said and formulate a reply worthy of it.

And seriously, man, this isn't fucking sports. This isn't supporting your team or whatever. This is just a story being told by two different mediums. The manga is generally well above the anime in terms of how the story is told, and that's why I prefer it. That's all there is to it.

[Jesus-is Lord]

I also understand that you didn't watch the anime and you're extremely biased against it so you can't form an educated opinion about the comparison I made.

Substandard argument.

Am I "biased against" Birdemic because it is a bad movie and I don't like it? Am I "biased against" Twilight because it is a bad book series and I don't like them? The anime is bad and I don't like it. That's the extent of my relationship with it.

Also, in what world is watching 103 episodes of a show not enough to form an "educated opinion" on it? That's fucking inane.

In-universe, what Goku says matters. Thus, even though SS3 didn't resolve the conflict, it could very well have, if Goku had decided to do so.

And that's why I questioned if you understand dramatic structure. Darth Vader could've killed Luke, Han and Leia aboard the first Death Star, but he specifically ordered his stormtroopers to miss. Yet you don't see people talking about that aspect of things much, if at all. That's because what Darth Vader could or couldn't have done meant nothing as far as the narrative was concerned—as far as what actually happened, it meant nothing.

Goku saying "Oh I probably could've won" means nothing when he didn't actually do it. The narrative role of Super Saiyan 3 was to be a red herring for the audience. When asked to teach the boys SS3, he shrugs it off and instead teaches them fusion. That was the story telling us SS3 doesn't matter. That is in stark contrast to Toei, who pushes every new form as the greatest thing since sliced bread and resolves all conflict with them. That's boring, especially when these things aren't built up, have no context and are never explained.

If all it takes to resolve an issue is to really believe in yourself, scream louder and pull out some new transformation then why should I give a single shit about whatever these characters are going through? How is there any tension? Super Saiyan 3 failed in all its appearances. Hell, Kaioken did the same thing. It failed to match Vegeta, it failed to beat Ginyu and it failed to beat Frieza. That is the kind of writing Toriyama engages in, not this tepid Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann nonsense.

This is relevant for the story. Fusion, the "actual powerup" you mentioned, also didn't solve anything so what's the difference?

The difference is we got to see Fusion develop onscreen. We got to see the characters train and develop for it. That fact alone makes it better than any form gained spontaneously or offscreen. Fusion, unlike SS3, wasn't a red herring. It played heavily into the Buu fight, and then with Vegito. They have different narrative functions, my guy.

And let's not be dishonest here, there's nothing wrong about a new powerup resolving an arc's conflict,

Yes there is! Why should I be invested if people can pull shit out of nowhere and resolve whatever conflict is going on? Why should I give a shit about Luke's journey if in the climax of the film his starfighter transformed into Unicron and he crushed the Death Star? If the characters don't have limits, if the setting doesn't have rules—then why should I give a single solitary fuck about what's going on?

you'll be here applauding when Toyotarou does the same or worse than what the anime did.

I won't even dignify this with too much of a response. Marlowe89 adequately explained the difference between the anime's approach and the manga's. Reread what he said and formulate a reply worthy of it.

And seriously, man, this isn't fucking sports. This isn't supporting your team or whatever. This is just a story being told by two different mediums. The manga is generally well above the anime in terms of how the story is told, and that's why I prefer it. That's all there is to it.

Well said.

[alakazam^]

Substandard argument.

Am I "biased against" Birdemic because it is a bad movie and I don't like it? Am I "biased against" Twilight because it is a bad book series and I don't like them? The anime is bad and I don't like it. That's the extent of my relationship with it.

Also, in what world is watching 103 episodes of a show not enough to form an "educated opinion" on it? That's fucking inane.

No, you're biased against the anime because you criticise everything about it (even what you didn't watch) and praise everything Toyotarou does. That, by default, shows your bias. It's even worse when you claim you don't like the anime yet you can't shut up about it in the manga thread. Everyone can talk about the manga without mentioning the anime and vice-versa. Except you, apparently. It shows how well the manga stands on its own, I guess.

I didn't told you to watch the whole anime, I told you to watch the Tournament of Power arc, which is what you need to talk about it and Migatte no Gokui in the first place.

I won't even dignify this with too much of a response.

Yeah, don't. We'll see what happens in the next chapters.

That is in stark contrast to Toei, who pushes every new form as the greatest thing since sliced bread and resolves all conflict with them. That's boring, especially when these things aren't built up, have no context and are never explained.

You really need to know what you're talking about and learn that opinions aren't facts, especially when they are contradicted by the actual story you didn't watch. But whatever, I feel I'm wasting my time. You're not interested in knowing the facts (or not presenting opinions as them) so there's no conversation possible here.

Continue bashing the anime, then, if that's what you feel is needed to make the manga relevant.

[batistabus]

Migatte no Gokui is all about optimization. When you're at a point where your physical movements are limited by the amount of time it takes you to translate a thought into an action, the only way you can improve is to act without that extra step. Because Saiyans increase their level of strength through transformation, in order to have access to that level of power in addition to the optimization, Goku "transforms" (white hair) when utilizing the form.

In other words, MnG is one's/Goku's maximum sustainable power and optimal battle sense rolled into one. It is the ultimate achievement in martial arts, and it is a reflex that can only be drawn out through making fighting second nature and being pushed to one's limits. It has been foreshadowed heavily in the manga this arc, and has been teased since Resurrection F. I think it's one of the most interesting concepts in Super.

But the UI Omen

And we never learn why it is a transformation for Goku, when it just appears to be a skill for everyone else. We have no idea what that form is, because it's not sufficient to say it's ultra instinct when it works differently to how that technique is portrayed. It's functionally just another power-up to match a really strong guy blow for blow, which is a disappointing use of the concept.

but from what we've been shown Goku's transformation just gives him UI as a property of the form.

I'll talk about MnG Omen if it appears in the manga.

As hardcore fans, we want to know the in-universe explanation for everything, but from a story-telling perspective, it's not so straightforward. A Saiyan has never achieved Migatte no Gokui in history until Goku. There's no explanation to be given because nobody - aside from Zuno or Super Shen Long - would know the answer (or care, to be quite honest). The best we could get is an acknowledgement of how atypical it is (from Kaioshin, perhaps), or speculation from an authoritative figure like Whis; neither of whom would definitively answer your question. Including either of those things would be fine, but they're "fat" that would only serve to address those who demand answers to everything. I wholeheartedly believe that Dragon Ball is at its best when lean.

Nobody at the ToP knows the answer to your question, and it's not Toriyama's style to explain things unnecessarily. Where does that leave us? Just because something you want to know isn't addressed specifically, that doesn't mean it's a plot hole. We have enough pieces to figure something plausible out at the very least. If you're looking for an out-of-universe reason, the answer is merchandise. If you're looking for an in-universe reason why Saiyans transform but others don't, the answer could reasonably lie in the nature of Saiyans. The defining trait of that race is transformation. Even if you discount Super Saiyan, despite being war-like in nature, Saiyans aren't that exceptional until they transform into oozaru. The power is inside of them the whole time, but they are only able to draw it out through transformation (with the exception of Gohan and the effects of the Elder Kaioshin ritual). Is that certainly the reason why? We can't say, but it works well enough to prevent me from being hung-up on such an unimportant detail.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Do you think "White God" is independent of MnG for Goku?

[TKA]

As hardcore fans, we want to know the in-universe explanation for everything, but from a story-telling perspective, it's not so straightforward.

and it's not Toriyama's style to explain things unnecessarily.

I don't think it's unnecessary to explain the biggest plot element you've introduced in the story thus far.

Toriyama told us exactly what Kaioken was (and thus why it's dangerous), what Super Saiyan was (and thus how it can be developed), what SS2 was (and thus what comes after it), what SS3 was, how fusion worked, why Potara is different etc.

These are major plot elements, man. You can't just leave them unexplained or unaccounted for because that raises serious tension issues going forward.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Substandard argument.

Am I "biased against" Birdemic because it is a bad movie and I don't like it? Am I "biased against" Twilight because it is a bad book series and I don't like them? The anime is bad and I don't like it. That's the extent of my relationship with it.

Also, in what world is watching 103 episodes of a show not enough to form an "educated opinion" on it? That's fucking inane.

No, you're biased against the anime because you criticise everything about it (even what you didn't watch) and praise everything Toyotarou does. That, by default, shows your bias. It's even worse when you claim you don't like the anime yet you can't shut up about it in the manga thread. Everyone can talk about the manga without mentioning the anime and vice-versa. Except you, apparently. It shows how well the manga stands on its own, I guess.

I didn't told you to watch the whole anime, I told you to watch the Tournament of Power arc, which is what you need to talk about it and Migatte no Gokui in the first place.

I won't even dignify this with too much of a response.

Yeah, don't. We'll see what happens in the next chapters.

That is in stark contrast to Toei, who pushes every new form as the greatest thing since sliced bread and resolves all conflict with them. That's boring, especially when these things aren't built up, have no context and are never explained.

You really need to know what you're talking about and learn that opinions aren't facts, especially when they are contradicted by the actual story you didn't watch. But whatever, I feel I'm wasting my time. You're not interested in knowing the facts (or not presenting opinions as them) so there's no conversation possible here.

Continue bashing the anime, then, if that's what you feel is needed to make the manga relevant.

Your entire rebuttal lacked much substance, good sir. This young man, TKA, stated very eloquently and precisely the grievances he took with supers anime use of not only UI- but most of its (if not all) of toeis-only transformations in its effect of the plot.
In contrast, you just responded to his reasonable argument with largely emotion of what seems to be frusteration of how he talks about super's anime in relation to the manga.

I myself have watched all 131 episodes of super and think it's quite a mediocre show and is the thee worst offcial continuity of dragon ball I have ever seen. Furthermore, I agree with all of the sentiments TKA espoused about how UI (and most toei forms for super)was executed in the show.
So even I who's watched all episodes of super can agree with him in this issue, it shows he makes a substantial point.

[batistabus]

As hardcore fans, we want to know the in-universe explanation for everything, but from a story-telling perspective, it's not so straightforward.

and it's not Toriyama's style to explain things unnecessarily.

I don't think it's unnecessary to explain the biggest plot element you've introduced in the story thus far.

Toriyama told us exactly what Kaioken was (and thus why it's dangerous), what Super Saiyan was (and thus how it can be developed), what SS2 was (and thus what comes after it), what SS3 was, how fusion worked, why Potara is different etc.

These are major plot elements, man. You can't just leave them unexplained or unaccounted for because that raises serious tension issues going forward.

I'm not saying MnG shouldn't be explained. The reason for Goku's hair being white is something that doesn't relate to the purpose of the ability nor the method of attaining it. It may be atypical of someone who has mastery over the ability, but everyone is still able to clearly recognize it for what it is...so what does it matter? To me, it's about as important as asking "If Super Saiyan 3 increases the length of Goku's hair, why do his eyebrows go away?"

In the manga, we know:
-it allows you to move without thinking, optimizing yourself as a fighter
-it is difficult even for gods to achieve
-it can be imperfectly utilized (as seen in the GoD Battle Royale)
-it requires a combination of physical training and the right state of mind

Will all of that connect in a satisfying way with Goku in the manga? We'll see. That I do care about, not why his hair turns white.

But back to the previous point. If we really want to go crazy speculating, maybe Goku is NOT the only person who transforms when using the ability. In the anime, we only ever see Goku utilize a "mastered" version. In the manga, Beerus is still struggling to maintain it. For all we know, Beerus would turn white once he perfected it. Perhaps Whis uses it when sparring with Goku/Vegeta, but his hair is white anyway. Maybe hair turns white because it is an angel's technique. Even if the white hair is Saiyan-exclusive, maybe Freeza - by the transformative nature of his race - would go through an aesthetic change as well. Anyway, it's fun to think about, but it's not really what interests me.