Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

They one shot Abo and Cado in Base form during the manga of Yo Son Goku.

Oh really? Didn't even know there was a manga for Yo Son Goku.

If you agree with that, then Base Goten and Trunks > Freeza (Namek) when in the start of BoG, Base Goku < Freeza (Namek). I'm not even sure if Yo Son Goku should count for continuity. Perhaps I shouldn't have even used that as an example. SSJ Goten and Trunks are definitely stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta from Buu saga but at that time, both Base Goku and Vegeta are still < Freeza (Namek).

I take Tarbles Freeza comment to mean they're above first form Freeza but nothing in comparison to the later levels of power. There's really no way in hell he should know about Freeza's actual power in his higher forms.

[PFM18]

They one shot Abo and Cado in Base form during the manga of Yo Son Goku.

Oh really? Didn't even know there was a manga for Yo Son Goku.

If you agree with that, then Base Goten and Trunks > Freeza (Namek) when in the start of BoG, Base Goku < Freeza (Namek). I'm not even sure if Yo Son Goku should count for continuity. Perhaps I shouldn't have even used that as an example. SSJ Goten and Trunks are definitely stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta from Buu saga but at that time, both Base Goku and Vegeta are still < Freeza (Namek).

I don't really consider Yo Son Goku as part of the continuity no. I believe it has since been retconned. But yes, I agee that SSJ Goten/Trunks>Base Goku/Vegeta during the Buu Arc and Base Goku and Vegeta are weaker than Namek Freeza. Like I said, for reasons you mentioned during the Buu Arc pre-ROSAT they probably fall somewhere between Namek Freeza and 18 in their SSJs, possibly closer to 18. Then, after the ROSAT I would imagine they surpassed 18 as SSJs but as we see they are still individually below Piccolo. So IMO for the Buu arc:

Piccolo>Post-ROSAT SSJ Goten/Trunks>18>Pre-ROSAT SSJ Goten/Trunks>Namek Freeza>Base Goku/Vegeta

And I guess it would make sense for them to be Cell Jr level after the ROSAT? I don't think that they would really have gotten much stronger since the Buu Arc considering that we don't really see them training during DBS and during EoZ they are slackers that don't train at all. All we get is the one training sequence during the Zamasu Arc.

[shadowfox87]

Oh really? Didn't even know there was a manga for Yo Son Goku.

If you agree with that, then Base Goten and Trunks > Freeza (Namek) when in the start of BoG, Base Goku < Freeza (Namek). I'm not even sure if Yo Son Goku should count for continuity. Perhaps I shouldn't have even used that as an example. SSJ Goten and Trunks are definitely stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta from Buu saga but at that time, both Base Goku and Vegeta are still < Freeza (Namek).

I don't really consider Yo Son Goku as part of the continuity no. I believe it has since been retconned. But yes, I agee that SSJ Goten/Trunks>Base Goku/Vegeta during the Buu Arc and Base Goku and Vegeta are weaker than Namek Freeza. Like I said, for reasons you mentioned during the Buu Arc pre-ROSAT they probably fall somewhere between Namek Freeza and 18 in their SSJs, possibly closer to 18. Then, after the ROSAT I would imagine they surpassed 18 as SSJs but as we see they are still individually below Piccolo. So IMO for the Buu arc:

Piccolo>Post-ROSAT SSJ Goten/Trunks>18>Pre-ROSAT SSJ Goten/Trunks>Namek Freeza>Base Goku/Vegeta

And I guess it would make sense for them to be Cell Jr level after the ROSAT? I don't think that they would really have gotten much stronger since the Buu Arc considering that we don't really see them training during DBS and during EoZ they are slackers that don't train at all. All we get is the one training sequence during the Zamasu Arc.

They are hybrid Saiyans that inherited a lot of S-cells. Even though they didn't train a lot, they have tremendous potential to grow, more than even Gohan.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Guys guys guys, you all are going in circles of something so very simple.
Ssj goten and trunks = cell junior = assj trunks and vegeta
And just because cell juniors regenerated dosent mean they must have had a zenkai, cell has regenerated before and sometimes he didn't get any so it really depends. The fact toyotaro never explained anything of cell juniors being stronger then what they were before tells me (for now) that they are basically the same strength as they were in the cell games.
Trunks and goten can SLAP 18 and Namek freeza as well, the only reason they weren't in the tourney is because vegeta wouldn't allow children to enter - and that was it. Not because they aren't warriors or cabable fighters. And I think vegeta said that because he had a baby which made him soft at that moment. Simple, folks.

[RandomGuy96]

I take Tarbles Freeza comment to mean they're above first form Freeza but nothing in comparison to the later levels of power. There's really no way in hell he should know about Freeza's actual power in his higher forms.

Going by the manga that's very likely true. Tarble pictures 1st form Freeza when recounting hearing about Freeza's defeat.

[Bergamo]

Guys guys guys, you all are going in circles of something so very simple.
Ssj goten and trunks = cell junior = assj trunks and vegeta
And just because cell juniors regenerated dosent mean they must have had a zenkai, cell has regenerated before and sometimes he didn't get any so it really depends. The fact toyotaro never explained anything of cell juniors being stronger then what they were before tells me (for now) that they are basically the same strength as they were in the cell games.
Trunks and goten can SLAP 18 and Namek freeza as well, the only reason they weren't in the tourney is because vegeta wouldn't allow children to enter - and that was it. Not because they aren't warriors or cabable fighters. And I think vegeta said that because he had a baby which made him soft at that moment. Simple, folks.

Anime Trunks and Goten are likely much weaker than anime 18. In the anime almost everyone on the u6 team got some sort of power boost, yet Goten and Trunks never fought the Cell Jrs and actually got weaker.

[shadowfox87]

Guys guys guys, you all are going in circles of something so very simple.
Ssj goten and trunks = cell junior = assj trunks and vegeta
And just because cell juniors regenerated dosent mean they must have had a zenkai, cell has regenerated before and sometimes he didn't get any so it really depends. The fact toyotaro never explained anything of cell juniors being stronger then what they were before tells me (for now) that they are basically the same strength as they were in the cell games.
Trunks and goten can SLAP 18 and Namek freeza as well, the only reason they weren't in the tourney is because vegeta wouldn't allow children to enter - and that was it. Not because they aren't warriors or cabable fighters. And I think vegeta said that because he had a baby which made him soft at that moment. Simple, folks.

Anime Trunks and Goten are likely much weaker than anime 18. In the anime almost everyone on the u6 team got some sort of power boost, yet Goten and Trunks never fought the Cell Jrs and actually got weaker.

A Cell Jr. > Android 18. Regenerating from a single Cell will give you a zenkai, there's no ifs or buts about it. Getting your arm chopped off or regrowing parts of your body is one thing but we know from zenkai, that the greater the injury and the closer one is to the brink of death, the higher is the zenkai after being healed. All the Cell Jrs, have the same DNA as Cell, and they have Saiyan cells, so there's no logical reason for them to not get a Zenkai. Trunks and Vegeta btw, stopped using ASSJ once they saw Goku's transformation, they realized that Grade 1 was actually the best and focused on stamina for the remaining days. The reason for Goten and Trunks not entering though is what you said - that they are children, but still a bad reason since 7 Cell Jrs. were enough to protect Android 17's forest.

[Bergamo]

Guys guys guys, you all are going in circles of something so very simple.
Ssj goten and trunks = cell junior = assj trunks and vegeta
And just because cell juniors regenerated dosent mean they must have had a zenkai, cell has regenerated before and sometimes he didn't get any so it really depends. The fact toyotaro never explained anything of cell juniors being stronger then what they were before tells me (for now) that they are basically the same strength as they were in the cell games.
Trunks and goten can SLAP 18 and Namek freeza as well, the only reason they weren't in the tourney is because vegeta wouldn't allow children to enter - and that was it. Not because they aren't warriors or cabable fighters. And I think vegeta said that because he had a baby which made him soft at that moment. Simple, folks.

Anime Trunks and Goten are likely much weaker than anime 18. In the anime almost everyone on the u6 team got some sort of power boost, yet Goten and Trunks never fought the Cell Jrs and actually got weaker.

A Cell Jr. > Android 18. Regenerating from a single Cell will give you a zenkai, there's no ifs or buts about it. Getting your arm chopped off or regrowing parts of your body is one thing but we know from zenkai, that the greater the injury and the closer one is to the brink of death, the higher is the zenkai after being healed. All the Cell Jrs, have the same DNA as Cell, and they have Saiyan cells, so there's no logical reason for them to not get a Zenkai. Trunks and Vegeta btw, stopped using ASSJ once they saw Goku's transformation, they realized that Grade 1 was actually the best and focused on stamina for the remaining days. The reason for Goten and Trunks not entering though is what you said - that they are children, but still a bad reason since 7 Cell Jrs. were enough to protect Android 17's forest.

1. The magnitude the injury =/= Yhe magnitude of the zenkai
Vegeta got blasted into the atmosphere, got his tail chopped off, got spirit bombed, and got crushed, yet his zenkai was less than when he asked Krillin to injure him.
2. It doesn't matter how strong the Cell Jrs are, because Goten and Trunks didn't fight them in the anime.

[shadowfox87]

1. The magnitude the injury =/= Yhe magnitude of the zenkai
Vegeta got blasted into the atmosphere, got his tail chopped off, got spirit bombed, and got crushed, yet his zenkai was less than when he asked Krillin to injure him.
2. It doesn't matter how strong the Cell Jrs are, because Goten and Trunks didn't fight them in the anime.

1) Getting a hole blasted through your body trumps all of that since Vegeta was still alive. The hole would've caused Vegeta to die. Vegeta lowered his guard to allow Krillin to hurt him. Zenkais were also shown to be incremental increases. Goku also got hurt a lot just during Dragon Ball against King Piccolo and Piccolo. Yet, his zenkai wasn't a lot.
2) I'm only going by the manga.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Guys guys guys, you all are going in circles of something so very simple.
Ssj goten and trunks = cell junior = assj trunks and vegeta
And just because cell juniors regenerated dosent mean they must have had a zenkai, cell has regenerated before and sometimes he didn't get any so it really depends. The fact toyotaro never explained anything of cell juniors being stronger then what they were before tells me (for now) that they are basically the same strength as they were in the cell games.
Trunks and goten can SLAP 18 and Namek freeza as well, the only reason they weren't in the tourney is because vegeta wouldn't allow children to enter - and that was it. Not because they aren't warriors or cabable fighters. And I think vegeta said that because he had a baby which made him soft at that moment. Simple, folks.

Anime Trunks and Goten are likely much weaker than anime 18. In the anime almost everyone on the u6 team got some sort of power boost, yet Goten and Trunks never fought the Cell Jrs and actually got weaker.

Who cares about the anime? they can't power scale so it's best to disregard whatever nonsense they spew because it'll probably be contradicted by the next writer who's job it is to do something. And I think you meant U7 not U6, and no one got any power boost. it's just fan service, if they got an actual power boost according to the show, the show would have told you so. 18 got an power boost out of thin air because of how's she incoorectly scaled to fight with beings that should be above her? It's bad power scailing, not power boost. power boost is roshi saying he trained, or goku black saying he got stronger - that's narrative toei power boost.
Goten and trunks are goten and trunks in the anime - maybe they got weaker or maybe they didn't - Idk. The point was just to show they aren't cabable fighters and the tourney is to "complex" and dnymaic for them - it entailed nothing of them getting weaker. goten falling after hitting trunks was to make art they aren't good fighters, not that they grew rusty - but in the same aspect saying that got rusty is an valid opinion. I'm just more on the pessimstic side because toei was just trying to figure out a reason why toriyama chose those instead of trunks and goten. They chose the best ecplanation they could think of, even if it wasn't the smartest and most consitent one.

Also pardon me if I seem sassy, I just lost a competive game (WITH CHEAP SHOTS...well they weren't cheap but I was winning but I got suprised attacked and lost) and so I'm taking steam out on super. hahahahaha

[dragon boss z]

Is there a full translated version of the chapter with the cell jrs? From what I've seen there is absolutely nothing to power gauge off of. The Cell jrs weren't ordered to kill people and we know they like to play with people as they fought against Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Guys guys guys, you all are going in circles of something so very simple.
Ssj goten and trunks = cell junior = assj trunks and vegeta
And just because cell juniors regenerated dosent mean they must have had a zenkai, cell has regenerated before and sometimes he didn't get any so it really depends. The fact toyotaro never explained anything of cell juniors being stronger then what they were before tells me (for now) that they are basically the same strength as they were in the cell games.
Trunks and goten can SLAP 18 and Namek freeza as well, the only reason they weren't in the tourney is because vegeta wouldn't allow children to enter - and that was it. Not because they aren't warriors or cabable fighters. And I think vegeta said that because he had a baby which made him soft at that moment. Simple, folks.

Anime Trunks and Goten are likely much weaker than anime 18. In the anime almost everyone on the u6 team got some sort of power boost, yet Goten and Trunks never fought the Cell Jrs and actually got weaker.

A Cell Jr. > Android 18. Regenerating from a single Cell will give you a zenkai, there's no ifs or buts about it. Getting your arm chopped off or regrowing parts of your body is one thing but we know from zenkai, that the greater the injury and the closer one is to the brink of death, the higher is the zenkai after being healed. All the Cell Jrs, have the same DNA as Cell, and they have Saiyan cells, so there's no logical reason for them to not get a Zenkai. Trunks and Vegeta btw, stopped using ASSJ once they saw Goku's transformation, they realized that Grade 1 was actually the best and focused on stamina for the remaining days. The reason for Goten and Trunks not entering though is what you said - that they are children, but still a bad reason since 7 Cell Jrs. were enough to protect Android 17's forest.

You make some valid points. I'm just saying, don't insert your headcanon and claim it as fact. You're basing things based off what you saw instead of what is written, so if something isn't written in stone - I wouldn't be so hasty to say it MUST be - especially if the thing you are talking about has no appearnt signs. Like with cell juniors, you say they got a zenaki boost as if it is fact because they got dis-membered - when we have seen cell get dismemebered before and no zenkai (aka instant kamehahaha blast), you say well "he didn't get dis-membered to this extent" (well now that's headcanon which is my point), point is toyotaro just showed cell juniors and how they were tamed by trunks, nothing and I mean NOTHING (indicates they are stronger then what they were before, could they be stronger then what they were before? Yes, they can. But i'm just going with the safest option. Db is simple, things usually aren't so hidden like that.

Again, trunks and vegeta stopped using assj..do you have any proof of that? other then vegeta trying to figure out the secret of their power when he was thinking to himself? if vegeta was learning how to control ssj, he would have been in ssj form once the cell games started, so its reaosnable to say trunks and vegeta still used their assj, and after found the secret of using mssj.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Is there a full translated version of the chapter with the cell jrs? From what I've seen there is absolutely nothing to power gauge off of. The Cell jrs weren't ordered to kill people and we know they like to play with people as they fought against Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin.

Is there? lol.
Well we know they can take on ssj trunks and goten with ease, so I say they are about as strong as they were as in the cell games. If that's true, then if trunks and goten are as powerful as a cell junior, then they should be assj vegeta and trunks tier which seems like a reasonable scale for trunks and goten.

[shadowfox87]

You make some valid points. I'm just saying, don't insert your headcanon and claim it as fact. You're basing things based off what you saw instead of what is written, so if something isn't written in stone - I wouldn't be so hasty to say it MUST be - especially if the thing you are talking about has no appearnt signs. Like with cell juniors, you say they got a zenaki boost as if it is fact because they got dis-membered - when we have seen cell get dismemebered before and no zenkai (aka instant kamehahaha blast), you say well "he didn't get dis-membered to this extent" (well now that's headcanon which is my point), point is toyotaro just showed cell juniors and how they were tamed by trunks, nothing and I mean NOTHING (indicates they are stronger then what they were before, could they be stronger then what they were before? Yes, they can. But i'm just going with the safest option. Db is simple, things usually aren't so hidden like that.

Again, trunks and vegeta stopped using assj..do you have any proof of that? other then vegeta trying to figure out the secret of their power when he was thinking to himself? if vegeta was learning how to control ssj, he would have been in ssj form once the cell games started, so its reaosnable to say trunks and vegeta still used their assj, and after found the secret of using mssj.

I understand what I'm saying is headcanon. I didn't say that what I'm saying is fact. However, without headcanon, life would be pretty boring don't you think? We need some kind of logic and rationalization based on previously established information. Hence, all I'm saying is If A is this, then B must be this since A=B. In this case, A=Cell and B=Cell Jr. It's not explicitly written in stone but things should be implied by now. The show is not going to feed us with all the information. DB is supposed to be simple, but we all know, that's never usually the case. We wouldn't be talking on this forum if it were simple.

The proof is observation. The ASSJ has slightly increased muscle mass. During the Cell Games, after Vegeta turned into a SSJ, his body was still lean and slim. Vegeta witnessed Goku's power after he showed it on Korin's power. There, he realized that what Goku is doing is probably right. He went back into the RoSaT again, so he may have had a chance to learn Grade 1, but he didn't master it to the degree that Goku did. Regardless, the point here is that even if you believe that Cell Jr. = ASSJ Vegeta or SSJ Vegeta, after a zenkai boost Cell Jr. is stronger. Therefore, it's logical to deduce that perhaps he's as strong as MSSJ Goku.

[dragon boss z]

Is there a full translated version of the chapter with the cell jrs? From what I've seen there is absolutely nothing to power gauge off of. The Cell jrs weren't ordered to kill people and we know they like to play with people as they fought against Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin.

Is there? lol.
Well we know they can take on ssj trunks and goten with ease, so I say they are about as strong as they were as in the cell games. If that's true, then if trunks and goten are as powerful as a cell junior, then they should be assj vegeta and trunks tier which seems like a reasonable scale for trunks and goten.

I don't think that proves Goten and Trunks being that strong, just like it doesn't prove Krillin and the other being that strong.

[Bergamo]

1. The magnitude the injury =/= Yhe magnitude of the zenkai
Vegeta got blasted into the atmosphere, got his tail chopped off, got spirit bombed, and got crushed, yet his zenkai was less than when he asked Krillin to injure him.
2. It doesn't matter how strong the Cell Jrs are, because Goten and Trunks didn't fight them in the anime.

1) Getting a hole blasted through your body trumps all of that since Vegeta was still alive. The hole would've caused Vegeta to die. Vegeta lowered his guard to allow Krillin to hurt him. Zenkais were also shown to be incremental increases. Goku also got hurt a lot just during Dragon Ball against King Piccolo and Piccolo. Yet, his zenkai wasn't a lot.
2) I'm only going by the manga.

If Vegeta getting a hole blasted in his body trumps all other beat downs, then why was that zenkai 8 times weaker than his one against Recoome? Zenkais are random and make a fighter however strong they need to be to suit the plot.

[Jesus-is Lord]

You make some valid points. I'm just saying, don't insert your headcanon and claim it as fact. You're basing things based off what you saw instead of what is written, so if something isn't written in stone - I wouldn't be so hasty to say it MUST be - especially if the thing you are talking about has no appearnt signs. Like with cell juniors, you say they got a zenaki boost as if it is fact because they got dis-membered - when we have seen cell get dismemebered before and no zenkai (aka instant kamehahaha blast), you say well "he didn't get dis-membered to this extent" (well now that's headcanon which is my point), point is toyotaro just showed cell juniors and how they were tamed by trunks, nothing and I mean NOTHING (indicates they are stronger then what they were before, could they be stronger then what they were before? Yes, they can. But i'm just going with the safest option. Db is simple, things usually aren't so hidden like that.

Again, trunks and vegeta stopped using assj..do you have any proof of that? other then vegeta trying to figure out the secret of their power when he was thinking to himself? if vegeta was learning how to control ssj, he would have been in ssj form once the cell games started, so its reaosnable to say trunks and vegeta still used their assj, and after found the secret of using mssj.

I understand what I'm saying is headcanon. I didn't say that what I'm saying is fact. However, without headcanon, life would be pretty boring don't you think? We need some kind of logic and rationalization based on previously established information. Hence, all I'm saying is If A is this, then B must be this since A=B. In this case, A=Cell and B=Cell Jr. It's not explicitly written in stone but things should be implied by now. The show is not going to feed us with all the information. DB is supposed to be simple, but we all know, that's never usually the case. We wouldn't be talking on this forum if it were simple.

The proof is observation. The ASSJ has slightly increased muscle mass. During the Cell Games, after Vegeta turned into a SSJ, his body was still lean and slim. Vegeta witnessed Goku's power after he showed it on Korin's power. There, he realized that what Goku is doing is probably right. He went back into the RoSaT again, so he may have had a chance to learn Grade 1, but he didn't master it to the degree that Goku did. Regardless, the point here is that even if you believe that Cell Jr. = ASSJ Vegeta or SSJ Vegeta, after a zenkai boost Cell Jr. is stronger. Therefore, it's logical to deduce that perhaps he's as strong as MSSJ Goku.

That example you used is an mathmatical property which is law = which eqauls fact. So your example isn't up to task. I get what you are trying to point out, that it is mere "common sense" of what you're saying, which is why I think you hold valid argument, but it's not that common sensical. Because if toyotaro wrote them as the same power level, or or even weaker believe it or not, I wouldn't think it's bad writing. Because goku blew half of cell, he regeranted and got weaker. But this is fruitless arguing, if cell juniors are mssj goku and gohan level - hey that's fine by me. If they aren't and are as strong as they were 10 years ago, fine by me as well.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Is there a full translated version of the chapter with the cell jrs? From what I've seen there is absolutely nothing to power gauge off of. The Cell jrs weren't ordered to kill people and we know they like to play with people as they fought against Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin.

Is there? lol.
Well we know they can take on ssj trunks and goten with ease, so I say they are about as strong as they were as in the cell games. If that's true, then if trunks and goten are as powerful as a cell junior, then they should be assj vegeta and trunks tier which seems like a reasonable scale for trunks and goten.

I don't think that proves Goten and Trunks being that strong, just like it doesn't prove Krillin and the other being that strong.

Hence why I said "If",
I don't know why you brought up Kuririn. He's a joke and hasn't trained in 10 years, and he got one shotted by frost in the first minute without even throwing a punch, he's 100% absloute fodder and only here for comic relief.

[PFM18]

yet Goten and Trunks never fought the Cell Jrs and actually got weaker.

How can you definitively say this? We don't know that they got weaker at all. We don't have much indication they got stronger so naturally the rational conclusion is that they are about the same, if not being stronger. No idea how you could conclude they got weaker in the DBS anime.

1. The magnitude the injury =/= Yhe magnitude of the zenkai
Vegeta got blasted into the atmosphere, got his tail chopped off, got spirit bombed, and got crushed, yet his zenkai was less than when he asked Krillin to injure him.
2. It doesn't matter how strong the Cell Jrs are, because Goten and Trunks didn't fight them in the anime.

1) Getting a hole blasted through your body trumps all of that since Vegeta was still alive. The hole would've caused Vegeta to die. Vegeta lowered his guard to allow Krillin to hurt him. Zenkais were also shown to be incremental increases. Goku also got hurt a lot just during Dragon Ball against King Piccolo and Piccolo. Yet, his zenkai wasn't a lot.
2) I'm only going by the manga.

If Vegeta getting a hole blasted in his body trumps all other beat downs, then why was that zenkai 8 times weaker than his one against Recoome? Zenkais are random and make a fighter however strong they need to be to suit the plot.

Exactly. Zenkais are COMPLETELY random and don't follow anything even resembling consistency.

[SSJgogeto]

Who cares about the anime?

Almost everyone, actually.